The difference between Jews and Muslims

Check out this quote:

Wellington Council of Christians and Jews secretary Dave Moskovitz said he hoped to speak to Kan about the offensive joke.

“When a third of your people were wiped out in one go it’s hard to find anything about the Holocaust funny.”

“I lost family in the holocaust and there’s still people around who were in those camps, and some of those people live in New Zealand.”

Joking about the holocaust was never appropriate, much like a joke about rape would be considered bad-taste, he said.

Although offended by the remark, Moskovitz did not think the tweet should be deleted.

“While Raybon’s comedy is inappropriate and insulting, I think we should go around respecting people’s freedom of speech.”

This is a stark reminder of the difference between Jews, Christians and Muslims. Somebody tells an offensive joke and they say, leave it up, respect people freedom of speech.

But in contrast if someone writes a book (Salman Rushdie) deemed offensive then a fatwa for his death is issued, if some people draw pictures (Danish Cartoons) that are deemed to be offensive then more fatwa are issued for their death and protests break out world wide leading to riots, violence resulting in a total of more than 100 reported deaths, and if someone makes a film (Fitna) that is offensive then a fatwa is issued on the producer and if a film rally upsets someone then the producer is threatened (Theo van Gogh) and then killed leading the co-producer to go into permanent hiding.

Look at the different responses and I dare you to tell me that Islam is just the same as Christianity and Judaism when confronting challenges.

  • http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/ The Gantt Guy

    Hey that’s a great idea. Maybe a third of all muzzies should be wiped out. Y’know, just to give the cnuts a sense of perspective. No, seriously. Maybe we could be humane, and say instead of a third of all of them, let’s agree to a third of those remaining in the civilised world after 1 January 2012.

  • Kimbo

    “Look at the dif­fer­ent responses and I dare you to tell me that Islam is just the same as Chris­tian­ity and Judaism when con­fronting challenges”.

    Some individuals, pockets, communities, and sometimes particular countries have, can, and do co-exist as Muslims with secularism, e.g., Turkey under Attaturk, Iran under the Shah, the Muslim community in India.

    However, until such time as Islam has collective experiences to transform it en masse like the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment, then you’ll get no argument from me.

  • pencarian

    “respect freedom of speech”
    I find it hard to reconcile that with people being imprisoned for independently researching the holocaust. In many European countries you will be locked up for not accepting the Jewish version of events.
    Generally, Jewish people are far more accepting of dissenting views, (than followers of the other primitive desert cults). However, the fact remains that it is illegal to question the holocaust in many countries. That is not respecting freedom of speech.

    • Richard

      The over-reaction to the nutjob holocaust deniers has created more image problems for the Jews than it intend to avert. History is not owned by any group of divinely-delusional people who believe they are special, but are by no means this side of perfect.

  • Brian Smaller

    I always thought the biggest difference between Christians and Muslims (speaking from an atheists point of view) is that Christians tell me I am going to go to hell, but Muslims try to send me there.

  • Bunswalla

    Personally I’ve found that arguing over who has the better imaginary friend to be one of the more pointless activities in human history, albeit certainly the one that has caused the greatest misery, bloodshed, atrocities and loss of life. Even more pointless when you realise, as all intelligent people do, that there are in fact no gods, and all stories about them are man-made and works of fiction.

    Except the Flying Spaghetti Monster – he’s definitely real.

    • http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/ The Gantt Guy

      Your reading and comprehension skills are about as good as those of my 5 year old. The post is not about worship, nor religion you fucking retard. The post is about a response to insults. If you insult Jews they will let the insult stand as proof of the idiocy of the person making the insult. The acolytes of the 7th century death cult will call for someone to cut off your head.

      Incidentally, in your rush to denounce the existence of any deity, do you believe in anthropogenic climate change?

      • Bunswalla

        Given that I didn’t even mention worship or religion, I could comment on your reading and comprehension skills being worse than my cat. But instead I think I’ll take your advice and let the insult stand as proof of the idiocy of the person making the insult.

        Incidentally, in your rush to deliver insults, did you actually read my post?

  • db

    During the Dark Ages, when good christians were living like superstitious pigs in filth and ignorance, it was mainly the Islamic world that kept the light of civilisation burning. A lot of what Westerners feel so smugly superior about today wouldn’t even exist if it hadn’t been for the Muslims. A few fanatical extremists (none in OUR churches, of course!) don’t represent an entire belief system. Overall Islam is no better and no worse than Christianity or Judaism or any other religious movement, though any one may score higher on the atrocity scale on a given day.

    • http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/ The Gantt Guy

      No, it would be all those Presbyterians flying planes into buildings, blowing up markets and beheading people in the ME, wouldn’t it?

    • diabolos

      What the Muslims did db – was conquer large parts of the classical world by force,rapine and plunder. What many of their ‘scholars’ re-discovered was the classical hellenic world and its roman manifestations – and they rediscovered and used that classical thought. Nothing new was invented by Islam or its adherents.

      As also did the Christian monastic orders – particularly the celtic orders in Ireland – at roughly the same time.

      I dare you DB to go on National TV sometime and run a series of comedic skits about Islam – nothing too bad – just a lampoon of the Prophet – and put your name and address up on the screen. Then sit back and wait for the hit squad.

      • Kimbo

        I’m intrigued by your championing of Hellenistic thought and Roman government, as superior to Judaeo-Christianity in the tolerance stakes, diabolos.

        Is there a possibility that those things you critique in the history of the Judaeo-Christian heritage (executions of-non-conformists, Inquisitions, and pogroms) were already inherent within the Pax Romana, and they came into the Church as a Trojan horse along with Constantine, and stayed there for over 100 years courtesy of fallible human nature?

        I seem to remember the founder of Christianity was executed by Rome on charges of sedition, even though he wasn’t seeking to overthrow the government. Even the religious group (the Jewish Sanhedrin) who delivered him over operated under a code which dictated at the time, “a Sanhedrin that put a man to death even only once in 70 years was considered bloodthirsty”

        Also, the early Christians were persecuted for nearly 300 years because they were an “illegal religion” due to their refusal, inherited from Moses, to worship Caesar. Not much tolerance, or civilised government for them under Hellenistic/Roman government! Like the historians say – Pax Romana was most clearly manifested in the blood spilt on the sand Colosseum

        But you are right distinguishing the Judaeo-Christian heritage from Islam. Mohammed may have been a monotheist, with many points in common with Moses and Jesus. However, Islam had conquest as a means of propagating the faith from its very inception, and as a continuing valid potential modus operandi.

      • diabolos

        @Kimbo … no matey – i am NOT championing Hellenistic thought etc as superior etc etc. What i am saying is this – that many if not most of the foundations of meaningful Western thought are based upon Greece and eventually Rome as an interpreter of Greek thought. Dare i say it .. ‘IN MY OPINION’

        Judeo christianity has no corner on morality or moral imperatives. In fact in my opinion it borrows significantly from the classical world. My point was that in the sciences and philosophy – that the Arab scholars and traveller philosophers like Ibn Batuta, rediscovered the classical world and its science and philosophy. Islam didnt invent this thought – its glory particularly in the Ottomans case – was it had a role in preserving that thought – almost by accident.

        My overriding point is …. history or knowledge or truth didnt begin with Judaism or Christianity – or Islam. The Greeks were pioneering revolutions in thinking etc (epicurus) quite independantly of and in most cases in advance of, Judaism and Christianity. I have certain views about judaism also – that certainly dont hold it in high regard in many respects – but thats another story – and no im not an anti semite.

  • diabolos

    @ kimbo … as a footnote – the Hellenists never persecuted Christianity. I think you fundamentally misunderstand my viewpoint.

    Also – i havent made any claim to superiority “in the tolerance stakes” on behalf of Hellenism either … i will say this much .. monotheism seems to me – to have never – never produced any revolutions in thought or human development. Instead monotheism seems always to have promoted one eyed and narrow attitudes to all things. The best of western culture has always in my view sprung from the best of classical western thought – almost in spite of judeo christian prejudices and practices.

    Just an opinion – uninformed or otherwise.

    • Kimbo

      You are entitled to your opinions, diabolos, and I’m certainly not looking to burn you at the stake.

      I’m just finding the certitude with which you state your opinions (did I mention you are entitled to them?!) is not matched by their logic (a form of thinking, based in part on Greek philosophy, I believe) or consistency. For example, and I trust you’ll allow me to engage in a method developed by a fellow by the name of Socrates: -

      “i am NOT cham­pi­oning Hel­lenis­tic thought etc as supe­rior etc etc” (The “etc.” I specified was “Judaeo-Christianity in the tol­er­ance stakes”).

      If so, then why, diabolos, did you write: -

      “Instead monothe­ism seems always to have pro­moted one eyed and nar­row atti­tudes to all things”

      and,

      “The best of west­ern cul­ture has always in my view sprung from the best of clas­si­cal west­ern thought – almost in spite of judeo chris­t­ian prej­u­dices and practices”.

      Would you care to explain?

      Also, a few loose ends:

      “the Hel­lenists never per­se­cuted Chris­tian­ity”. Agreed. However, you were the one who linked Greek thought, and Roman government together.

      Also, “Judeo chris­tian­ity has no cor­ner on moral­ity or moral imper­a­tives.”. Agreed. Am not aware of any monotheists, other than idiots living in a bayou or Afghan cave who claim otherwise. Certainly Jesus didn’t If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that” (Matthew 5:47).

      And, no, I never took you for an anti-Semite. Just not particularly consistent.

      But that is ok, because I hold to a theology (Reformed Protestant) that, when it finally got around to joining the dots on what it was meant to be practising extended civic tolerance to Jews (Oliver Cromwell), Irish Catholics (abolition of the Test Act), as well as abolishing slavery, instituting prison reform, and agitating for universal education.

      So I’m not self-combusting hearing your opinions. Did I mention you are entitled to both hold and express them?

      • diabolos

        Jots and tittles mate – sometimes more tittles than jots perhaps – but there is nothing wrong with tittles mate. Tittles make the world go round.

        I am in awe of you. In fact – consistently so.

        I already have a Kimbo shrine set up in my privy complete with the latin motto “labia majora…”

  • thor42

    My long and detailed post on this topic seems to have vanished. However, I’ll repost the essential parts of it -
    For a start, diabolos is correct – Islam conquered goodness-knows how many countries and then claimed their work as its own. This page on wikiislam shows that -
    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Inventions%3F_How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World

    This wikiislam page compares Islam, Christianity and Judaism in terms of violence. It will be no surprise to know that Islam comes out as the worst -
    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Are_Judaism_and_Christianity_as_Violent_as_Islam%3F

    As for humour (and criticism for that matter), there is no contest. Christianity and Judaism both cope very well with humour aimed at them, and they cope pretty well with criticism too. Islam? Not so – criticism of it is forbidden, as is humour.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html – an in-depth intro to Islam. Dispels many widely-held (in the West) notions about Islam, such as “it’s just another religion, just like the others”.
    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com – Tracks the number of terror attacks by Muslims since 9/11. Currently at 17,756 attacks. ( That’s attacks, not the number of dead – that will be considerably more).

    • diabolos

      Really good summary Thor – thank you – and thank you also for the useful links.

      Judaism and Christianity as exemplified now – regardless of the past – are forgiving and accommodating. Thats the lesson of history.

      • thor42

        You’re welcome.
        Agreed – Judaism and Christianity have shown the ability to change. For example, there is now “Reform Judaism”, as distinct from the Orthodox variety. As for Christianity, it long ago abolished stoning and burning at the stake.
        Islam still has stoning.
        IIRC, the Pope even apologised about the treatment of Galileo (who was threatened with excommunication).
        Islam? No reform there. None likely either, given their belief that the Koran is unchanged and the “perfect” word from “Allah”, and that Mohammad was the “perfect example to follow”.

  • Kimbo

    “Islam? No reform there. None likely either, given their belief that the Koran is unchanged and the “per­fect” word from “Allah”, and that Moham­mad was the “per­fect exam­ple to follow””.

    Appreciate your general analysis, thor42, but I’m not sure you have pin-pointed the source of Islam’s (and the rest of the world’s) problems. Millions of Christians believe Christ (“The Word became flesh” John 1:14) as revealed in the Scriptures is “unchanged”, the “Word from God”, and the “perfect example to follow”, yet they don’t fly planes into buildings. You don’t have to embrace a wholly liberal/Enlightenment philosophy with simply a monotheistic shell (typified by your typical milquetoast Anglican bishop!) to function as a good and peaceful member of our non-sectarian society.

    Conquest by the sword, and capital punishment for heretics, whilst appearing in some passages of the Bible, seems never to have been practised to the extent to which the rhetoric of the Scripture presents them. There is nothing inherent in Christianity or Judaism that means you can, should, or must revert to those things. When Christendom DID lapse (and lapse badly) into those abuses, there was an in-built self-correction mechanism within the content of the doctrine to eventually (and it did take FAR TO LONG) correct it.

    I don’t think Islam, despite its capacity at times for peaceful co-existence with subjugated religions (e.g., toleration of Jews was better under them than medieval Christendom), nor its initial appeal to peaceful conversion, nor the peaceful example of many Muslims, has the same in-built self-corrective.

    As and when it suits, Islam can, will, and must revert to conquest as a means of propagation of the faith. Or at least the establishment of a Caliphate, where Islam has civic dominance.

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