Do we need a castle law?

David Prosser wants dairy owners, taxi drivers and bottle store owners given the ability to arm themselves. But what about ordinary home owners?

Do we need a castle law here? Or should we just shoot first and ask questions later?

In North Carolina they are strengthening the “Castle Doctrine Law”:

It soon will become easier to justify cases in which deadly force is used in self-defense.

Changes to the state’s Castle Doctrine Law that take effect Thursday do not require people to run before they fight back with a gun. The law expands the use of reasonable deadly force to include cars and workplaces if a person under attack fears imminent death or serious bodily harm.

The Castle Doctrine, rooted in English common law, is based upon the idea that a person should be safe from attack while at home.

“You don’t have to run to the far part of your house if there is a threat,” said Terry Lamb, owner of The Gun Vault. “People like that and are very positive about these changes.”

The new law presumes that a person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter intends to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

“This change should make things a little more clear for people and more comfortable,” said Lt. Robert Hamilton of the Guilford County Sheriff’s Department. “There is a presumption now that if you fear for your life, you can use deadly force. The presumption before was that you had to retreat first.”

The changes also ease the civil liability gun owners can face if they shoot and kill or injure someone committing a crime against them.

“You can use your gun for self-defense in more places than before,” Lamb said. “Most people think that is a good change.”

“The presumption now is that the vehicle is more like a residence and you can protect yourself against a car jacking,” said Hamilton, who works in the legal process division that handles concealed carry handgun permits.

  • JK

    The current way of interpreting the use of force to defend oneself against attacks is far to cumbersome. It leads to too many for the rest innocent people being prosecuted for simply doing what should be an undeniable right: to defend themselves in an appropriate way. When attacked in a brutal way one should be able to use even more brutal force as defence. But I vividly remember the young English tourist who was attacked in Auckland by three assailants and used his martial arts skills to defend himself. This young man found himself being convicted for the use of force and his attackers were deemed to be the victims as they did not have such martial arts skills… We should need a stronger Castle Doctrine but the state has the monopoly on the use of force and doesn’t like to hand some of these powers back to the people it had take them away from.

  • Anonymous

    I agree – we *do* need a “castle law”.  It’s the crims who have all of the rights under our current PC namby-pamby laws.

  • Zelda

    Probably need more upholding of current laws too!

  • Anonymous

    NZ law is nice and simple:
    “Every one is justified in using, in the defence of himself or another,
    such force as, in the circumstances as he believes them to be, it is
    reasonable to use.” (s48 of Crimes Act).

    The most important word here is ‘believes’.

    However there are various procedural ‘fish-hooks’ such as:
    1. If you use leathel force, you are the subject of a searching homicide inquiry. You have to wait weeks in fear that Mr Plod will come around and arrest you. Constable ‘A’ of waitara fame was lucky as the Police fast tracked the inquiry and exonerated him in a few days, while the Auckland pharmacist had to wait weeks. IMO in the pharmacist case, there was sufficient readily available evidence to make a decision in a few days without having to run forensic tests, etc.
    2. Even if the facts are reasonably obvious, Crown Law may still recommend prosecution ‘in the public interest’ then try to bullshit the jury about the defence.
    3. If the ‘believe’ aspect is obvious, but the ‘reasonableness’ of the force is at issue, you can still face trial at which your ‘belief’ is attacked. That was the basis on which Elias CJ allowed the private prosecution of Constable ‘A’ to proceed.
    4. You can shoot yourself in the foot by saying the wrong thing to the cops especially if you are not aware of s48. Seems the best thing to do is blurt out ‘I feared for my life’ then shut up until you see a lawyer.
    5. If there are firearms irregularities, you will face firearms charges even if ‘self defence’ is accepted. Gunshop case a particular example. Cops charged the shop assistant with unlawful possession of a pistol, then were too chicken to appeal when a copule of JP’s threw the case out.
    6. Because of the avdersial nature of the justice system, Crown Law will over time apply pressure to tighten the interpretation of s48 which will make it harder to argue self defence
    7. If you force against intruders in your house, and they happen to be cops, then look out! Happened to a guy in Taupo who lost his keys, so broke a window in his house then went to bed. Neighbour heard the glass breaking and called the cops.

    I would favour the following procedural amendments:
    1. Police to submit initial evidence to Crown Law within three days, and Crown Law to provide a recommendation of some sort within three days (defence justified / more work needed / defence not justified).
    2. Amendments to Crown Law guidelines to take some of the adverserial edge off the way Crown Law treats such cases.
    3. ‘Immunity’ from conviction for associated arms/weapons charges provided the person exercising self defence takes immediate steps to become ‘legal’ eg applying for gun licence, surrendering gun to cops, etc.

    I would not favour any changes which for example allows the victim to shoot at a fleeing offender, or who teaches the offender a lesson.

  • Apolonia

    Introducing a castle law was a policy of the Conservatives in the last election.

    • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz Whaleoil

      And how did they get on after believing their bullshit polls?

  • Pete George

    What peterwn suggests sounds comparatively simple and sensible.

    Any violent death should be investigated, but in most defence cases it should be quickly apparent  wether the force was justified or not.

  • Your home is your castle

    I wanted to comment and raise the relevant NZ law, s48 of the Crimes Act, but peterwn said everything I wanted to say and more, if you’re not a lawyer, you should be! 

  • Brian Smaller

    The right of self defence is meaningless without the means to defend yourself.