The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality

ŠĒ• Dan Savage

People keep wondering why I post about marriage equality. All sorts of accusations are hurled…fingers are pointed…they ask how can I as a Christian support same sex marriage? How can I as a Christian even entertain treating homosexuals equally?

Well it is true, I was once a bigot…but in my learning and growing as a Christian I found that we are all equal…as sinners…before God…and that we can all be saved, no matter what. Once I learned that one powerful lesson you then also learn that bigotry is pointless, hurtful, and I believe against all that Jesus taught us.

Dan Savage has pointed me to a video, it is long (1 hour), but well worth it:

Matthew Vines¬†is a young gay man who grew up in Kansas. His family is Christian and very conservative. After coming out, Vines took two years off college to research and think deeply about what the bible says‚ÄĒand doesn’t say‚ÄĒabout homosexuality. You could argue that what Vines has to say is irrelevant to non-Christians. But Vines’ argument and his insights are highly relevant to gay Christians, to their families, to Christians who point to the bible to justify their bigotry and the pain they inflict on LGBT people (including their own LGBT children), and to anyone who happens to live in a country that is majority Christian. Vines delivered these remarks at College Hill United Methodist Church in Wichita, Kansas, earlier this month. Watch this video:¬†Vines is brilliant. He has a post up at¬†Huffington Post¬†that gives some context and background.¬†Go read it.

  • Groans

    This debate is about how we structure our society.¬† If that means marriage is for male and female only then that’s the wisdom we are using.¬†

    • The Baron

      How so? How does gay people being able to be married have any impact upon the structure of society at all?

      And to pre-empt some of the other hysteria that I’m sure is just around the corner, how would this mean the end of western civilization as we know it, or the corruption of your children, or the inevitable electoral dominance of the left?
      Cos there is just so much weirdo hysteria that comes from you bigots that I have trouble keeping up. Can you all get together and try express yourselves coherently please, or I’ll just have to keep believing that you’re all morons.

      K, thanx, bye.

      • Groans

        If I have to explain it to you I’m wasting my time.¬† You’re representive of our post-Western Culture, ie dumbed-down.

      • The Baron

        What the hell is post-western culture? How the hell does me supporting the right to marry for same-sex couples make me dumbed down again?

        Still no explanation as to why this will be the end of the world though, is there Groans. And you call me dumbed down.

        Let me make this really simple – your hysterical arguments in this regard make no sense and do your cause no good. Your insistence upon them despite this makes you seem like an idiot bigot, who relies more on the guidance of mythical sky people than on his own common sense.

        I see no reason in your response to change my mind; so, ah, thanks for confirming what I knew already!

      • BJ

        Go read the collective hundreds of posts on this website that have previously covered your questions. There are many valid reasons that have already been stated so you go check them out

      • Steven P

        “…your hysterical arguments in this regard make no sense and do your cause no good…”

        You mean as opposed to the hysterical accustions of bigotry,¬†hatred and stupidity levelled against anyone who has the temerity to question the need for “marriage equality (sic)”?

        Accusations that are of course intended to shut down any honest and open debate on the subject.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OK7Y7PCSTJ27RCKZ2MGRSAYCTE NEIL

    One of the reasons why I actually started reading your blogs was you’ve actually become a better person than I’d read about before – and yes your stance of letting gays live their life without bigotry is one of them. Well done on the above. Letting gays live free of persecution doesn’t mean you’re a closet gay – I still keep wondering when our gay rugby players are going to show some strength of character and come out.

  • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

    I started listening, but stopped.¬† He’s made some major mistakes with his interpretation pretty early on with his two major problems (the bearing of the good vs bad fruit and the suitable companion).

    The thing is, as he says many times, he’s caught between celibacy and being alone, or just giving in to his inclinations and being condemned by traditional teachings.¬† His solution is to call the traditional teachings wrong.¬† However, there is a third option available to him – transformation in Christ.¬† Sinful tendencies in every one of us can be crucified – that is part of that teaching to take up your cross and follow him.¬† So, there is healing available to him to be a true man and be able to have a woman as a companion.¬† Given that he is young and searching and still a virgin, he has every possibility of finding that option.¬† And then if he thinks he was ostracised as a gay person, the vitriol he will be subjected to as an ex-gay will exceed it by an order of magnitude.¬† However, that vitriol will be external – not the internal condemnation that he is fighting at present.

    • Polishpride

      and you explain homosexuality in Nature in the animal kingdom how…? plain and simple fact is that this alone shows homosexuality to be natural. I won’t even go into the bible being rewritten twice with a view to controlling the population or the number of books that were omitted.

      • Blair Mulholland

        ¬†There is a difference between “natural” and “common”.¬† They are not the same thing.

        It is obviously biologically unnatural for same sexed animals to have sex with each other.¬† The biological purpose of sex is to make babies, and the only way you can do that is with different sexed animals getting it on.¬† You can argue that God thinks it’s okay, but to say that homosexual fucking is “natural” is not true.

      • Peter Wilson

        That’s not really an argument of course, just because it happens in the animal world. Perhaps it’s the opposite, that being heterosexual is one thing that separates us from the animal world.

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

         Polishpride,

        All of Creation was severely disturbed when man sinned against God.  Animals have no guilt in this, but they are still affected.

      • BJ

        So you would hold animals up as an example to man of how to behave? Animals have animal instinct only and man has a conscience.
        A male dog will hump the leg of a human male  Р do you suggest man could hump the leg of a dog or hump the leg of any other human he felt like because its natural in the animal world? Or should having a higher level of brain function, including conscience  maybe stop him from acting out like the animals do?

      • Steven P

        It’s also natural, as well as common, for lions to kill their predecessor’s cubs when taking over a pride.

        In human societies however, this kind of behaviour is usually somewhat frowned upon.

      • Polishpride

        The difference is that I do not proclaim to¬†know gods intended purpose including homosexuality in the animal kindom or the world of Man. ¬† What I do know is that nature is a perfect system and EVERYTHING has a purpose . Perhaps the purpose of homosexuality is¬†Gods way of showing the world to love everyone (I don’t mean to have sex with)¬†. As love is the most powerful enegy in the Universe (at least as far as I am aware) ¬†I fail to see how any form of consensual true love can be a sin.¬†
        also consider this religious self rightiousness is the apex of on of the 7 deadly sins – Pride.
        I would say look not at an act of nature and say it is wrong. instead look to the act of nature and say what is the purpose as intended by god. 

        As to why a dog humps a leg….? because he is aroused and is not kept in a natural state where he can easily run off and satisfy the call of nature – at least thats my split second interpretation.

        Another good question is how does a homosexual couple getting married actually affect you?

        I think Matthews arguements are brilliant and well reasoned.
         

      • Steven P

        “As love is the most powerful enegy in the Universe (at least as far as I am aware)…”

        I’m gonna go with supermassive black holes on that one…

    • Doug_S

      Just when I was enjoying my right wing blog…there is always a catch somewhere. Why the religious recounts? Am I now having to attend church by coming here to read political and topical subjects. I know I don’t have to read it but it’s becoming far more frequent these days. Out of interest, I did take a look at your blog Lucia and with the greatest respect I will not be returning.

      Christianity, being gay or whatever..get your own blog and get on with it!

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        That’s ok Doug,

        I have a small readership and I’m happy to keep it that way.¬† Otherwise I’d be posting for the readers rather than for myself.¬† Blogs do have a way of controlling you, if you let them.¬† I’ve been blogging for long enough now to figure that out (since 2005).

    • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz Whaleoil

      It must be so nice being perfect like you Lucia Maria…except you aren’t perfect, I suspect that your sin is pride…in which case the wages of that sin is the same as for being gay…death, that is of course unless you have accepted the plan of salvation.

      but being a conservative catholic I doubt that very much…so I suspect that Matthew Vines may well be ahead of you in the queue.

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        Cam,

        I have many sins, but I am not seeking to justify them by reinterpreting the Bible to suit my particular sins.¬† I have gone through a period of enforced continence because of my husband’s previous marriage when I returned back to the Catholic faith.¬† At the time, I had no idea whether it would be permanent.¬† It was really hard, but at the same time, incredible.¬† There’s a lot to be said for following God and trusting him, however imperfectly, even if you have certain inclinations and desires, rather than trying to reshape reality.

  • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria
  • Blair Mulholland

    A lot of these arguments are old ones.¬† Probably two thousand year old ones.¬† It seems by his logic that gentile Christians can be gay, but Jews can’t?¬† The Mosaic law still stands to define sin for Christians.¬† The gospels and the epistles confirm this at length.

    He does a lot of fudging, but at the end of the day, you can’t defend fucking other men from the Bible.¬† It’s a clear sin, and if it is not, it is at the very least frowned upon by God.¬† It is certainly more clearly a sin than (heterosexual) fornication, which is not explicitly stated as being immoral.¬† Or paedophilia for that matter – the Bible is all but silent on kiddy-fiddling.

    If he believes he can fuck other men unrepentantly and still stand before God I do not judge him.  I wish him luck.  But I am afraid that he is doing some theological wishful thinking.  And I do not think he is going to find peace with God in a gay sexual relationship.

    I hope he continues to pray and put his faith in God, and the Holy Spirit will better enlighten him.¬† That is what has happened to me over the last two years.¬† I am afraid when you start to really walk in faith, God shows you things in your life that need to change, and it is not always easy.¬† God gives grace to everybody, this is true.¬† But when he gives us grace, he doesn’t do it to affirm our lives as they are.¬† He does it so that we can start to change into who He wants us to be.

    I am all for tolerance and loving people as they are and accepting people who live their lives different from mine.¬† But I will never tell someone that God says it’s okay for them to have sex with another man.

    • A-random-reader

      The bible isn’t the word of God – it was written by men.

      Even when it comes to the foundational texts like the books of the New Testament, we don’t actually know if they were originally written in Aramiac, Hebrew, or Koine Greek.

      • Polishpride

        Exactly and interpreted for his own ends on a number of occasions

      • Troy

        Mankind only has a few billion years left it in and are we all really gonna care about it when we, as carbon units, just return to the mulch we leave behind?  Frankly, for me, religion is a fallacy.  Debating it all is seems pointless given when our solar system is gone, so will all of those that inhabit it.  Gay, straight, bi Рwho cares, just enjoy the life you have and spend less worrying about others!

    • The Baron

      Thanks Blair, at least you explained where your nutty beliefs come from.

      But what I don’t get is why what someone else does to offend God is any business of yours? What does the bible say about busy bodies who shove their nose into other people’s business?

      After all, if these horrible homos offend god, then its them that won’t have free refills or everlasting netflix membership or whatever other crap you believe in; you’re entitlements will remain the same.

      oh, apart from the fact of how much hate you spew onto your fellow man based on their sexual orientation. I’m pretty sure there is a commandment on that… whoops, shaky ground Blair, I guess its hell for you too.

      • Blair Mulholland

         Well Baron, Mr Slater is making it my business by insisting the government provide for same sex couples to marry.  I have an opinion on that, so I share it.  Same with this fellow.  He purports to be a Christian, but tells me that if he has sex with another man it is not a sin.  I am afraid that is not true Рit is bad theology, and I think it is important that if somebody says something that is untrue in a public forum, it should be corrected by people who know better.

        As to whether he actually has sex with other men, that is none of my business.  But it is my business if he professes Christianity and yet distorts the message of Christianity.

        As to spewing hate on my fellow man – where did you read this?¬† I am an equal opportunity hater, and I would never hate someone simply because they liked to pack fudge.¬† Nor did I ever say that this man was going to hell – I’m probably a worse sinner than he is, so I am hardly going to judge him.¬† I am only interested in following the Word of God, and encouraging others to do the same.

    • Gazzaw

      What would God think about vagitarians Blair?

  • Random66

    Thanks for posting this Whale.¬† I was open to hearing what this young man had to say and to see if he could change my views on this issue.¬† I found that I was firmly in the traditional view which he spoke of up to approx 4.10 min.¬† I listened for a while longer but did not view the whole thing.¬† If we begin to approve all and any sexual behaviour based on how a person feels and we endorse their sexual orientation just because they choose to behave in that manner, where will it end?¬† If your sexual appetite lends itself to the young (does society then say hmm is 12 too young) or¬†what if a man’s sexual orientation¬†lends itself to¬†variety¬†do you¬†let him have 3 wives, or what about animals….¬†and so it goes on.¬†¬†¬†Once we remove the boundary of what is right and wrong our children and families and infact society will suffer.¬† I believe in the fundamental truth that is provided in the Bible and when we stop using this as our moral compass I believe we will discover hell on earth.¬† And for all those who say I am a bigot, maybe, what I do know is I have a nephew who is gay and I love him dearly and there’s not much I wouldn’t do for him, but I cannot condone his behaviour by saying it is natural and right when there is clear instruction it is wrong.¬† The same can be said for lying, stealing, drunkeness etc.¬† That fact that it happens is just proof that we all¬†have sinful natures and fall short of what is ideal,¬†but I sincerely believe we are on¬†dangerous ground when we start to confuse what is right with wrong just because we wish it so.

  • Blair Mulholland

    Romans 13 seems pretty clear to me:

    “11
    Another reason for right living is that you know how late it is;
    time is running out. Wake up, for the coming of our salvation is nearer
    now than when we first believed.

    12
    The night is almost gone; the day of salvation will soon be here. So
    don’t live in darkness. Get rid of your evil deeds. Shed them like
    dirty clothes. Clothe yourselves with the armor of right living, as
    those who live in the light.

    13
    We should be decent and true in everything we do, so that everyone
    can approve of our behavior. Don’t participate in wild parties and
    getting drunk, or in adultery and immoral living, or in fighting and
    jealousy.

    14
    But let the Lord Jesus Christ take control of you, and don’t think of ways to indulge your evil desires.”

    That’s the standard, and I fall short of it a lot of times, but you don’t ignore the bits of the Bible you don’t like, just because you have overwhelming urges for hookers and beer.¬† We should not follow our carnal desires.¬† There is only one outlet for our sexual impulses, and that is heterosexual marriage.

    • Polishpride

      What about the gospel of Thomas
      The Gospel of Mary
      The Gospel of Judas
      What did they say to you?

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        ¬†Those “gospels” are heretical, put out by Gnostics who believed that good and evil needed to balanced in the universe.

      • Polishpride

        Lucia Maria  according to who? the Catholic Church?  as much of their content would have done away with he need for the church of course they were labled by the church as heretical. But luckily for you the Crusades conducted in the name of god, murdered most of the Gnostics.
        Perhaps you should read them you might learn a thing or two.

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

         Polishpride,

        The Crusades were a defensive war fought 400 years after Muslims started taking over the old Eastern Roman Empire Christian territories.  By the time the West was actually able to come to the aid of the East, 2/3 of Christendom was gone.  The Crusades did not succeed as Islam eventually took Constantinople several hundred years later, but continued in their relentless attacks on the West until Jan Sobieski III turned them back at Vienna.

        As for the Crusades “murdering” the Gnostics – the Crusades are blamed for just about everything by the ignorant.¬† Gnosticism is the first heresy.¬† As such, it comes up again and again and again.¬† It’s pretty strong now, because it feeds into human beings’ desires to call evil, good.¬†

      • Polishpride

        Lucia Maria – In the missing years from the Bible Jesus was studying with the Gnostics. He and his teachings where essentially Gnostic in many ways.

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

         Polishpride,

        No.¬† He wasn’t.

      • Polishpride

        Lucia Maria – please tell me your not attempting to justify the Crusades….!??!

      • Polishpride

        Lucia Maria – Yes he was :)

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

         Polishpride,

        You must have the Gnostics confused with the Essenes.

        And the Crusades need no justification.

      • Polishpride

        Lucia Maria РDamn it I do have them mixed up. I realised I got them confused and came back to confess but you had already called me on it. Yes I did mean the Essines apologies
           

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        ¬†Hey, that’s Ok, Polishpride.

        However, the Essenes did not have any Gospels.  They also basically disappeared after the Crucifixion Рmost likely they were the part of the first Christians.

        Somewhere in this thread where you quote something from the Gospel of Thomas – that’s basically pantheism where God is in everything, and therefore everything is sacred.

  • Pharmachick

    My (second) biggest problem here is that, even with the commenters on this page, I’m not sure which “bible” you’re talking about … Latin Vulgate, pre-reformation, post-reformation, Laodicean council, Revelation or no revelation,¬†Douay-Rheims Bible consisting of 73 books or King James of 66 books … it is endless. I have yet to hear a convincing argument from a single person that “their” bible is the correct one (imagine that!) let alone those that cleave to literal translations (which as most of us know have been horrible muddled and changed over time with successive translation, transliteration, copyediting etc.¬†

    • Random66

      You’re all over the show here.¬† I suggest you research some of what you are refering to.¬† There are only 27¬†writings in the OT and 39¬†in the NT that have been widely accepted and canonized by the christian church¬†as being God Inspired. Additonal writings were discovered but not included in the ‘Bible’ as they were not accepted as having the same standing (Apocrypha).¬† Some of the writings you refer to are translations from earlier original texts, other references¬†you make are just writings by the then church as to the conduct of church members and are certainly not included in bible and should not be confused as to be anywhere near similar.

      • Polishpride

        Really? it is interesting when you look at the power of the church today after the selection of books that should be included  (and the ones that should be excluded)  in the bible. In particular I find a message in the Gospel of Thomas (one of the books not included) to be quite telling 

        “The Kingdom of God is inside/within you (and all about you), not in buildings/mansions of wood and stone. (When I am gone) Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift the/a stone and you will find me.”

        That certainly did not serve the purposes of the church when the bible was put together…

      • Pharmachick

        Random66 said “You’re all over the show here”¬†

        Thanks for making my point for me. I will admit to using some very old (and rather extreme) examples there to make my point, but I think you summed it up nicely.

        BTW, “There are only 39¬†writings in the OT and 27¬†in the NT”
        according to whom? Your brand of religion?  I have several Coptic friends that might disagree with you.

  • Steve P

    So WO, you support “marriage equality” because you’re over-compensating for your previous bigotry?

    …explains why you accuse everyone who doesn’t immediately jump on the “marriage equality” bandwagon as being a bigot…

    • BJ

      Its like a reformed chain smoker who stops and takes the opposite view of smoking to the extreme

    • Polishpride

      So in your opinion then why shouldn’t they be allowed to marry and how does them doingso adversely impact you and your life??

      • Steven P

        Gays *are* allowed to marry.

      • Polishpride

        Steve P Рnot quite, gays are allowed to have a Civil Union.  

      • Steven P

        …and this is what I mean by refusal to engage in honest and open debate.

        Gays most certainly are allowed to marry; there are a number of restrictions in the Marriage Act however homosexuality is not one of them.

      • Steven P

        “…how does them doingso adversely impact you and your life??”

        Straw man. A vanishingly small percentage of the crimes and offences that occur in this country have any adverse effect on me personally, however that doesn’t mean I think they shouldn’t be prosecuted.

      • Kosh103

        No Steve, Gays are not allowed to marry. Men and women can marry each other , gays CANNOT marry each other.

    • Polishpride

      Steve P Good response with the strawman but I imagine most of the crimes you had in mind if they were to impact you directly would indeed do just that – impact you directly. gay marriage on the otherhand would not.

      • Steven P

        “…I imagine most of the crimes you had in mind if they were to impact you directly would indeed do just that – impact you directly…”

        Pointless tautology is pointless.

        “…gay marriage on the otherhand would not.”

        …and we’re back to the original straw man.

    • Peter Wilson

      Like they say, there’s nothing worse than a born again…well anything really.

      Seriously though, this business of anyone objecting to homosexual adoption and marriage rights being a bigot is quite offputting. How do you have a debate when one’s side’s only argument seems to be..”you’re a bigot, therefore you’re wrong”

    • Alex

      ¬†I think WO’s point is that you don’t need to be a troglodyte to be a conservative.¬†

  • Kosh103

    Frankly, any of you who are using the Bible to condem homosexuality or defend hetro marriage had better be following every single law, giudeline, bit of advice that is given within the Bible, both old and new test.

    Otherwise your whole argument that is based on the use of the Bible is a crock of shit and you are nothing but a bigot using religion to attack others. Something God/Christ will not be very happy about.

    Now, Im off to the garden, as it is too nice a day to sit inside and slap homophobic retards around the head.

    • Groans

      Be careful in the garden, there’s one fruit there you can’t eat

      • Kosh103

        Its all good. Not planting fruit. Doing up a corner of the garden into flowers/shrubs/trees.

        Looking at Hibuscus at the back, then still trying to decide between Rhodadendrons or Gardenias for the next level down.

      • Kosh103

        Groans, we have decided to go with Rhodadendrons. Just to keep you in the loop.

    • Agent BallSack

      Agrees with Kosh. I watch a lot and don’t comment much *generally*, but I do see a lot of holier than thou’s around here whenever this subject is broached. Fer Christ’sake Live and let Live people.

    • Peter Wilson

      That’s probably not correct Kosh my boy.

      The bible is open to interpretation, and I suspect every verse that is quoted, there are those – out there – that could take it to mean the opposite of what some interpret.

      • Kosh103

        When it comes to some of the OT rules, there is no wriggle room. WHen they start following those ones, then they will have a case. Otherwise they are bigots hiding behind a God who would not be happy with them for what they are doing.

    • Random66

      Kosh, I think we are all well versed with the teaching of, “..let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”¬† Obviously none of us are without sin and therefore should not condem but that does not mean we are to ignore the teachings, instructions or commands that are set down before us in the bible.¬† When we fall short of the standard we acknowledge our shortcomings and trust in His grace, but we must never believe the lie that there is no standard.

      • Kosh103

        Given I prob attend church/have more to do with church/ discuss these sorts of things with clergy than any of you holier than thou do as I say bunch I am more than happy with my stand on the 2 faced bigots hiding behind the Bible and misusuing it.

      • Peter Wilson

        Random66,¬†Kosh is¬†saying that God forgives all sinners.¬†But I don’t agree with him that homosexuality is a sin, so I’m not really sure what he means.

      • Kosh103

        I am not saying homosexuality is a sin Peter. It isnt. No where does Christ condem it. No where.

        In fact no where does God condem it, or any of his prophts. Ever.

        Human law does, priests. And even then there are almost none in the Bible.

        So it makes me laugh when idiots try to use Christ and God to promote hate and that they have the might of God behind them in their rants and raves.

        And as for God forgiving all sins – yes he does. Because of Chirst and what he did for us. Something all good christians should remember esp. at this time of the year.

      • Random66

        Kosh, it’s not arrogant at all to self proclaim yourself an expert based on the belief that¬†you go to church far more than the rest of us.¬† I would suggest you spend a little less time speaking to the ‘clergy’ and little more reading your bible so that you are better able to understand Gods will and what he has got to say.¬† Even Mathew Vines¬†states that there is clear instruction in the bible on this issue and it is not favourable.¬† Perhaps I can draw your attention to the following passages; Lev.20:13, Rom 1:26-27 and 1Cor 6:9-10.¬† The bible is not a buffet where you can take what you want and leave the rest, or decide what is God inspired or what man wrote.¬† It is what it is – take it or leave it.

      • Alex

        ¬†@Random66:disqus “Even Mathew Vines¬†states that there is clear instruction in the bible on this issue and it is not favourable.”.¬† In a nutshell, you have betrayed the key failing of your ilk — you ignore everything that doesn’t suit your preconceived interpretation and ignore the context.¬† In this case, you ignored 80% of Mr Vines’ address.¬† So you also do when “interpreting” the Bible.¬† Not one of your ilk have even attempted to address Mr Vines’ textual criticism.¬† Most possibly because it is above your intellectual capacity to do so.¬† And of course, who wants to think for him or herself.¬† After all, that’s what God put the Pope and “Bishop” Tamaki and the odious crew of clergy,mullahs etc etc to tell us how we should think.¬† But any religion that is founded on the belief that human words can adequately capture God, or that human beings can presume to know what God’s purpose, is inherently flawed.¬† It’s a shame.¬† I do believe in spirituality, and believe there is more to life than to consume.¬† But the monotheistic religions have failed so miserably.

      • Kosh103

        Oh Random, you poor thing.

        Lev. Is temple law, not Gods. Nice try, By they way Lev 19.19 clearly stats not to wear clothing made of mixed materials. Hope you are following that one. Otherwise, tut tut, you are being 2 faced.

        The Romans verse is a condemnation of hetrosexuals going against their own natural way – and seeing as man on man and woman on woman is natural for homosexuals, you fail again.

        And as for 1Corr – you are using mustranslated words. If Paul had of wanted to condem homos he would have used paiderasste – the word used at that time for man on man action. Yet another fail for you.

        Please do not assume I know nothing about my faith, or how people like you abuse it and Christs teachings. I will gladly knock any fool on their arse who tries to do so.

        Now, lets test you – how many slaves do you own Random?

        “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.” (Leviticus 25:44-45)

        Can we see a pic of your lovely facial hair?
        “Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.” (Leviticus 19:27)Hope you have never eaten any kind of pork product.
        “…and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you.” (Leviticus 11:7)So, did you pass?

      • Random66

        I believe Kosh that we should agree to disagree.¬† You profess to be a christian, yet you insult, threaten violence and are generally unpleasant.¬† I suppose you¬†interpreted that is o.k. in your bible as well.¬† I don’t¬†however¬†find it in mine.

      • Kosh103

        Well your lies aside Random, in other words you pick and chose from the Bible, judge others on your narrow, inaccurate interpration and then run when your 2 faced approach is exposed.

        Oh and for a little added extra attack you call into questions peoples faith.

        Given what I have seen of you in this thread you attack and condem others by misusing the Bible and Christs teachings.

        And I will not agree to disagree either. The way you are using the Bible is dishonest and I will call you and anyone else on  your dishonest use of Gods word any day of the week. I am very gald you find my unpleasent Рbecause there is no way I was trying to be polite to a 2 faced dishonest bigot such as yourself.

  • Andrei

    There is no such thing as marriage equality. 

    This is just playing with words trying to make black into white.

    Marriage is about forming family units for the purpose of procreation Рit is not about having your sexual preferences validated!!!! 

    “Gay Marriage” is a logical absurdity and the fact that people are seriously considering it as a¬†possibility¬†shows ¬†how insane western culture has become. ¬†

    Western culture is dying of course – destroyed by lefties and their silly silly word games

    • Polishpride

      But again how does it hurt you if gays are allowed to marry? why should you be allowed to control what someone else does especially in this particular arena.

      • Peter Wilson

        That’s just a circular argument.

        It could be asked how would it hurt gay people for heterosexuals to retain the right to celebrate their uniqueness – through heterosexual marriage.

    • The Baron

      You know, I was surprised it took so long for the “western civilization is dying” arguments to come up. Wow those homos are powerful.

      Snort.

      • Agent BallSack

        Think I will join the Sodomites just for the super powers and sparkly cape!

      • Groans

        To: Agent Ball Sack;¬†¬† ¬†don’t forget to wear your underpants on the outside.

  • Peter Wilson

    Interesting to see what would happen if you replaced the phrase “Gay marriage equality,” with “Adult consensual incest rights.”¬† ?¬† Another alternate lifestyle choice which is no-one elses business surely.

    • Kosh103

      And here come the stupid people. Sigh.

      • Peter Wilson

        And here come the stupid people. Sigh.

        Ah Kosh. Thanks for your contribution, I honestly didn’t think of it that way.

         
         

  • http://nx-files.blogspot.com/ NX

    There are seven billion people on this planet. It’s not like humans are an endangered species.
    If two guys or two girls want to get married… what does it matter.
    Compassion, honesty, trust, morality etc… those are the things worth fighting for.. not what happens in the bedroom between two adults.
    Let people do what they want.

    • Peter Wilson

      Including consenting adult incest? No, I didn’t think so.

       

      • http://nx-files.blogspot.com/ NX

        Within reason of course.

        But if you think fucking ones bro/sis is¬†a good¬†counter argument to my comment…. then I’m pleased not to be your sibling.

      • http://nx-files.blogspot.com/ NX

        Within reason of course.

        But if you think fucking ones bro/sis is a counter argument to my comment…. then I’m pleased not to be your sibling.

        ________________________________

  • titanuranus

    Well ,we all know the bible is full of shit and says whatever you want it to say,that is how it has kept the retarded in line for so long.
    Cos`  illiterate camel herders and goat fuckers knew so much more about science and the universe 2000 years ago than the educated people of today.

  • dad4justice

    Faggots are in the good book. As is the snake etc…

  • Stevo

    Bigotry is vile, but not so vile as religion.

    Mankind will be better without both.

    • dad4justice

      What does bigotry mean? Does gay still mean a happy person and a queer is a queer?

      Or have the fags changed the English language?

      • Stevo

        Look it up in your dictionary.

      • Peter Wilson

        I’m coming around to the theory that the heterophobes are actually the bigots.

        This, from Google

        One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

        Homosexuals certainly favour their own point of view, and, judging by the vitriol on this subject, tend to be intolerant of criticism, such critics being likened to Hitler etc.

        And the killer blow is surely that they do not respect the culture of heterosexuals, who only wish to celebrate their uniqueness through heterosexual marriage.

      • Karlos

        Godwin’s law strikes again aye Peter

      • Kosh103

        Well using that logic then SteveW, what is wrong with allowing us to celebrate our uniqueness by allowing us to have Homosexual marriage.

        Also, no one is trying to deny hetros any rights, rather some hetros are trying to deny homos rights.

        Your arguement fails.

  • Evan Johnson

    Is homosexuality natural.  Yes it is natural for homosexuals!

    Is homosexualilty common.  Yes it is common enough to be unremarkable.
    Is homosexuality causing human reproduction problems?  No Рthe population of Earth has doubled twice in the last hundred years!!Is there a problem with homosexuality?  No.  Cameron you are absolutely correct in your analysis!  Everyone else Рget with it!!

  • Evan Johnson

    Is the homophobia of most Christians a problem for us?

    NO! ¬† It gives me and countless other community-minded people the justification for keeping right away from organised religion. ¬†It means that our leisure time on Sundays can be put to better use – gardening, shopping, going to a park or a beach, sleeping in …

    Christians – for god’s sake don’t stop your howling at the moon!!

  • STEVE AND MONIQUE

    ¬†It makes me sick to my stomach to read blogs from biggotts quoting the Bible and judging everyone else for their preferences, you are going against the very thing that God is supposed to stand for. It is not your right or your business to be judging people different from you. You and your judgemental views are the very reason why this world is full of so much hate and biggottry. Perhaps your energy is better spent on genuinely helping people without judgement. I am 99% sure that those of you spitting out hate and intolerance are far from squeaky clean¬†nor free of sin and those you judge will be far ahead of you in both morality and tolerance. People in glalss houses …… need is say more?

    • Alex

      ¬†They’ve got to exorcise their homosexual tendencies somehow.¬† I’ve never had a credible explanation as to why Maria Luca, Andrei etc start foaming at the mouth when anything to do with homosexuality is mentioned, yet tend to say very little on any other topics.¬† I wouldn’t have thought that any one who is secure in their sexuality gives a toss about what two consenting adults do in their bedrooms.

  • Joesephusjones

    Homosexuality is wrong, end of story. 

    • Kosh103

      Homophobia is wrong, homosexuality is natural.

      End of story.

      • dad4justice

        So being a homo is natural eh kosh or should I say Mr Sleep. So then tell me, why Helen Clark lives the lie she does? Is she far¬†too ashamed to admitt she’s a stamp licker and as for Peter Davis, say no more else I get booted from here just like I did at Farrarsfaggotfarm.

        checkmate james.

      • Polishpride

        Dad4Justice Helen Clarke lived a lie beacuse there is still far too much bigotry in the world and too much hatred. You sir do nothing but help prove my point.  

      • Kosh103

        Hardly checkmate D4J you idiot.

        Neither Helen or Peter are gay. It is only fucktards such as yourself who say they are.

        But lets say for a moment she is a lez. Lets pretend the lie is real.

        Who cares?¬† She is far more successful than you could ever hope to be, one of NZs greatest PMs ever, well educated etc….

        Its only retards like you who care so much about peoples sexuality.

    • Polishpride

      Joesephusjones have you tried it….? If not how would you know….?¬†¬† :)¬†

  • Kosh103

  • Greg M

     Kosh, I disagree with almost everything you say,(lefty bullshit mostly)  but on this topic you have my full support.
    You and your partner are most welcome in my home with my family.
    Regards G

    • Gazzaw

      I go along with you Greg, there’s too much intolerance in this country. I¬†dreaded that our¬†children¬†might turn out to be gay¬†not because of any personal prejudice against gays but because kids have enough problems growing up without the added burdens of intolerance & hatred¬†from their peers, colleagues and the bigots who infest our society.¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†

      • Kosh103

        And to be honest Gaz, to a degree, I share your worries about gay kids.

        With all the shit that goes with being a teen these days, and the level of hate they can encounter, it is no wonder so many gay teens sadly take their own life.

    • Kosh103

      Thank you Greg.

  • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/homosexual-marriage/ Australian

    This video is full of flawed reasoning. Ref http://stasisonline.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/homosexual-marriage/

  • Polishpride

    Australian – as is your link Australian
    If you Google ‚ÄúSifra Leviticus‚ÄĚ you can quickly find claims that same-sex relationships were actually recognised thousands of years ago, – Then why didn’t Paul use that term if he was referring to Homosexual behaviour….
    It is clear to see from reading it that your man has decided from the outset that Matthew is wrong in his opinion and has set out to try and disprove it. Unfortunately he has come up well short as most of his arguements do not have a great deal of substance behind them. Matthew on the other hand has zeroed in on the biblical text and then its interpretation. He may have got the part about homosexuality not being recognised back then as incorrect but that actually only serves to strengthen his arguement for as it was recognised if they were referring to this they would have used the terminoligy of the time. They didn’t.
    God gave us the gift of intuition to know what is right and wrong for each individual. An individual only needs to listen to that. to know what is right or wrong for him or her. God is within. 

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