Will march for land but not for kids « Whale Oil Beef Hooked | Cameron Slater Whale Oil Beef Hooked

LinkinHawk

Title not quite right, ‘Will march for money but not for kids” its always about money in there pockets when evere there is some sort of march,, ….. ’ hmmmmm how can we scheme even more tax payers money out of the pakeha goverment’

dad4justice

Greedy brown magpies make my blood boil.
Poor kids eh bro!!!

Cleland M

Unnecessary cheap shots. Got to wonder how much has changed with arrogant white attitudes in the last 150yrs..
- Dave
  
  Cleland, Seriously. I grew up with maori, playing with them, going to school with them, working with them. I say that, as there was a togetherness, there was no difference. Like me, they went to school barefoot most of the time, and there wasn’t much coin to rub together. That was Palmerston north in the state housing areas.
  
  But, late 60′s to early 70′s it changed for me. My friends managed to get Maori scholarships, and low interest loans just because they were maori. These were not available to me, as I was a “well of F’n Pakeha”. This from one of my friends I grew up with. They actually earn more than I did, not much, but enough to make a difference, and here I was paying over 10% on a mortgage, and they were paying 3% FIXED. Then they drifted away, parties, minor crime (drink driving) I could not afford to drink, and did not support anyone drink driving.
  
  Cleland, for me, the Cheap shots, come from the TOTAL inequity there is from then to today, when being from a certain culture, means more handouts and special deals. Special deals in my mind extends to the Maori culture being above the law in certain circumstances.
  
  I believe 99% of Kiwis regardless of culture, would support Maori if the ELDERS actually stood up, and STATED LOUD AND CLEAR. We must look after our young, the ones who don’t have a voice, and who cannot speak for themselves. The people that committed this crime must be identified. And then go on to seek them out. But largely they don’t so they are complicit in their crimes, hiding the offenders.
  
  I have previously posted, I will even support Hone (and actually help him) when he shuts up and starts doing. Instead of bleating poverty. poor kids etc, and STARTS a Pre School Breakie club (or anything similar) in poorer areas, Kids come in, get breakie and a 20 to 30 minute pre school lesson……. No, he isn’t doing it, he just wants to protest about anything he can, nothing positive. I asked him this on Newstalk ZB. His reply Your arrogant ……… go fix your own problems. He refused to comment further when queried by the host.
  
  Back to the Point, think about the energy Maori are pouring into this (Labour led) so called Hikoi, the resources and food it will consume. Then think of the difference it WOULD make if the same resources, food and energy were poured into looking after the kids, who Maori claim are disadvantaged by the state, let down by welfare, by the education system and so on.
  
  Now, if only that energy could be put into the Kids.
  
  Why have the attitudes changed Cleland…….. Look closer to home my friend.
  
  (FYI Clealand: I have never received any government handouts, benefits or unemployment. I am not a member of any political party, but consider myself an ordinary Kiwi, who works bloody hard in my own business)

Petal

ouch

Cleland M

There have been some who have marched for their children; a very gracious Maori woman and her fairly small entourage came through Palmy a couple years ago, and I walked with her around the square but she didn’t get much support or media attention.

Brian Smaller

I think that proves Whales point. A few make a stand but most don’t seem to give a shit.

Dave

Good Point re the Kids, but is this from MAori, or from LAbour and the unions using MAori tradition to drive their issue, if so, they are the pawns of labour again….

Why shouldn’t they march:1) Most are unemployed, so they won’t lose any pay.2) They get to meet with like minded bludgers.3) They get a free lunch4) The unions get to go and drive for more members.Seriously, Hikoi have to go, they might be a Maori tradition, but are now just for political reasons or an excuse to bludge a day off work and a free lunch. My message to Maori across NZ, don’t let your customs and traditions be hijacked by a few politicians and union leaders, and get over it, you had an opportunity to purchase, you blew it, its over. Don’t bother with a Hikoi, NZ is laughing at you.

thor42

Agreed – they had their chance.
I’m sure that iwi like Ngai Tahu or Ngati Tuwharetoa would have been able to put up the dollars to buy the farms, if they’d been interested.

I see that one of the smaller iwi up north (Ngati Tama) has managed to burn through its settlement money. I guess they’ll be back for more soon.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6753899/Iwi-loses-most-of-Treaty-payout
Cleland M

I’m not laughing. Dave, you undermine the integrity of your argument when you take it down a notch & tell Maori that NZ is laughing at them.

davewin

If they walked there would be some good. A good weight reduction programme would assist many Maori People, as it would the writer of this comment! However they will not walk – as in the past the greatest majority will ride in buses from one feast at a Marae to the next down the road.

And if they got the Crafar Farms, the land would be weed infested and source of gorse seeds for the next two centuries.

Travdog

as they say davewin, a hikoi a day keeps jenny craig away!
- davewin
  
  Amen to That! (Keeping Jenny at bay)
WayneO

Have to disagree, having worked hands on in the farming sector for many years some of the most successful and productive farms I saw were owned by various tribes. The key was their intelligent move to use farm consultants to plan and create their farming program. The Maori staff on farm simply carried out these plans and the results speak for themselves. I was most impressed.
- Brian Smaller
  
  The old gorse farm thing (and my Dad used to have one) was a result of too mnay people with ‘ownership’ so nothing got done. When that is sorted out the farms usually do alright.
- Dave
  
  The Gorse farm, lets consider RAGLAN GOLF COURSE. Prime real estate, until, handed back to Maori, what is it now…….. A Prime Gorse Field, useless to anyone.

Boss Hogg

The farms have been Aussie owned for years, the new owners are going to start with spending $15,000,000 locally to upgrade and improve the environmental apsects of the farms and then they are being managed by NZer’s employing NZer’s.

The potential and intangible benefits associated with the new owners business interests in China are huge.

Wonder if Micheal Fay will do a guest appearance with a Swiss flag on a 100m stretch of the Hikoi just before the parliament steps? D4J – This guy is a “Magpie Trainer”

unitedtribes

I wish someone would actually explain to the lefties that the difference is not that great if a project is overseas owned or locally owned but using 60% bank funding given that our banks are Ozy.

New project

Owned by private overseas buyer

Stays in NZ
Goes Overseas

Value of business
Ebit
7
X
2000000
14000000

TO

20,000,000

Operating costs
60%

12000000
100%
12000000

GM
40%

8000000

0

OH
30%

6000000
50%
3000000
3000000

Net margin Profit divy to overseas owner
10%

2000000

0
2000000

15000000
5000000

Owned by NZ owner with foreien bank
mortgage

Value of business

14000000

Borrow from Overseas banks
60%

8400000

Interest on loans
6%

504000

Opetrating costs
60%

12000000

OH
30%+ interst
6504000

3000000
3504000

Total costs

19008000

Net margin/Profit divy to NZ owner

992,000

15992000
4008000

STEVE AND MONIQUE

And this will really do our overseas image one hell of a lot of good.When does all this Hoohah regards Hikois etc get the arse,and we all just live in this country as one,and not split between some Maori(who think they were here 1st(yeah right,and deserve money for nothing),and the rest of us.Who by the way are one big mix of many races,Pakeha/Maori mixed included.Get your priorities sorted,and march for your bashed kids,and the killers who hide behind family/friends.Then you might get a shock,and some of us white fullas might join ya.

RedgeNZ

The thing that amazes me about these Hikois is the amount of school age children you see in them, shouldnt they be at school?
In fact, the lot of them should be working and not walking on the taxpayers money.

Patriot

How about Marching to show leadership against Maori criminal violet behaviour — when maori bash another person — why doesnt Pita Sharples ( Sharples is a good English name ! ) stand up and say — maori are shamed by Mongrel Mob & Black Power behaviour again —

Sharples does little to lead maori to better family values and a non violent life .

NZ belongs to ALL NZers — not just Maoris .

the 3 clause Treaty is irrelevant – for a start , not all tribes signed it — 2ndly there is no agreement to its contents depending on which version is being referred to. Treaty is a dead duck

Balanced View

“So they will march in the streets for some broken down farms in the Central North Island but won’t lift a finger to stop bashing and killing their kids?”

Cheap shot WO, and not fair. I’ll forgive this comment as pure frustration born out of a strong desire to keep every child in this country safe. But don’t think you are on your own.

Dave

Balanced View. Please see my post above, I disagree its a cheap shot. Controversial perhaps, accurate YES.

How is it Maori can justify the huge resources, think of the organizational resources, transport, (fuel, busses etc) (and for the GREEN party, the carbon footprint the Hikoi will produce), the Food, the time off work and SCHOOL for the kids, the lost productivity of workplaces.

Then….. how could that be better used……. Kids education perhaps ??

Its not a cheap shot by Whale, its a bloody good question. Was this a Maori initiative, or an idea seeded from Labour and Mr Fay, who stand to benefit the most from this so called Hikoi ??

Bob

How about a long hikoi of a short beach…

Arnie

Why did they not march when their own Iwi sold 17000ha in many different blocks of SI Land to a Swiss consortium in late 2010??????

Zara

Its a bit disheartning reading some of these comments. Firstly where do you get off running down peoples image ie; Davewin & travdogs comments re Maori people being over weight. Its amazing how the weight of a person became your main topic of conversation when the subject is the hikoi not the size of the Maori people. And to Dave and his reasons why Maori shouldnt march. I’d love to know where you get your information from in regards to the professions of the people who are marching. You are either guessing and streo typing what all Maori are like or your a STALKER! To have information like that you must be a stalker or very priviledged but I dont think you are priviledged because you wouldn’t write the things you did. Not all Iwi around Aotearoa are the same, everyone is different. Dont assume things, or judge other Iwi’s actions because some other Iwi do things differently. Why dont you go around to Iwi and talk, learn their cultures, their history maybe you will learn a thing or two?You might even get some sort of clarity. I think some people are confused so they write whatever fills their brains at the time. I most certainly will be joining the hikoi. I DO have TWO jobs, and also HAVE marched for child abuse TWICE as I was formally a Early Childhood Teahcer so the children are very dear to my heart! AND I AM MAORI but that is not the only reason I am doing this march. Its because I believe in the cause. I’d love to sit down with anyone of you who think all Maori are over weight and un-educated and prove you WRONG!
I regards to the heading, its just a bunch of words put together by someone who wants to cause controversy but thats what reporters do, its their job. Trust me I know I am one!
Ma te Atua koutou e manaaki e tiaki i nga wa katoa

Engineer

Problem is youe cause is crap, isn’t an Aussie bank is selling the land to a Chinese company? Or was a New Zealand company dumb enough to lend the Crafar morons the money in the first place?
Sonofdy

Not all moari are overwieght, but its the way to bet.

Zara

Obviously your one of the CONFUSED people. Go do a little bit of reserch so you actually know what your talking about, instead of throwing around negativity and questions!!!

Agent BallSack

Another ‘teacher’ who doesn’t know the difference between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’. Here’s a hint

- The ironclad rule – no exceptions – is that if you’re able to replace the word with “you are,” you’re saying you’re. Otherwise, your only choice is your.
- jay cee
  
  and you’re being pedantic about spelling while ignoring zara point(s) which means she wins you lose this debate.
- Agent BallSack
  
  What’s her point?
- Agent BallSack
  
  My point is she states quite clearly she has 2 jobs and has worked as an early childhood teacher and is currently working as a reporter. Yet she doesn’t have most rudimentary of English knowledge. I left school at 14 but didn’t let that stop me becoming educated enough to correctly use the English language. And considering I went to school in first Wainuiomata then Porirua, surely people from other low decile areas have the same opportunity?

Dave

Zara. Firstly, i read widely, i note, I observe. My beliefs on this are that Beliefs. As my post (above) was posted at almost the same time, i suggest you read it. I grew up with Maori kids and families, there was no difference, none, until……

I have been and talked to Iwi, both on maraes at Awarua (southland) and one in Auckland. Great people, nice places with so much aura, but blinded to the real issues in the country. FYI both of my children attended a very well run Kohanga Reo and it was an excellent place for them to learn.

I commend you on Two jobs, and on being an early childhood teacher. Also happy to meet you face to face over a coffee (at a cafe) if Whale is good enough to pass on my Mobile number to you. Also happy to help start a Breakie club in areas where kids are disadvantaged.

I’m putting my efforts where my Mouth is Zara, the invitation is in your court.

Dave

HELLO ZARA. Offer made……. or are you one of Labour’s kept and faceless women just slinging comments going they stick somewhere.

Polishpride

Take a step back and look at the situation first
So why do some Maori (and for that matter anyone else) bash their kids?
Why is it that middle class and upper class white families DON’T seem to bash their kids.
If you really want to fix this problem take a look at the socioeconomic groups that this problem predominantly affects. And while your Maori bashing and thinking this is a Maori problem think about Steve Williams and 6 year old Coral Burrows
Families with low incomes often below the poverty line.
Often the areas these people live have a higher number of outlets selling alcohol too.
How many Maori families fall into the lower socioeconomic categories and are below the poverty line? A disproportionate number.
So take two men. The first is a guy earning six figures per annum, He has a family, he has options. If he wants to buy a car (or two he does so) If he wants to buy a house he does so. Putting food on the table he has numerous options, He wants to take the family on holiday, sure no problem there either. The point is this guy has options, he probably has a career path. If he doesn’t like his job he goes out and gets another one on a similar salary.
If his wife nags him too much he goes out on a boat fishing with his mates or plays golf.
Then he bashes his kids…… doesn’t even sound right….. and except for the possibility of a couple of excetions to the rule it doesn’t even happen.
Now you have a second Guy and for what ever reason (didn’t do well at school, didn’t have the right opportunities, insert whatever reason you want it doesn’t really matter) this guy has a low wage job no real options as far as he can see. He is just trying to survive. perhaps he doesn’t have the level of ambition. Whatever the reason he lives week to week with his pay (maybe he is on the dole and can’t find work or its sporadic at best)
He meets a girl they start a family
Now the pressure really starts he has limited funds but needs to provide for a family and everything that comes with it.
Can’t see a future or career path or anything that will improve the situation for him and his family. The pressure to make ends meet and earn enough to get by is constant like a weight bearing down on him. add to that all the other family dynamics and pressures.
He needs an escape even if it is at least a temporary one …. $20 and a dozen beers later with mates.
he finds his temporary escape in alcohol or drugs (or he doesn’t because the effects of either make the situation worse)
The pressure and cycle continue for a few years, one day kids do something and he snaps…

There is no justification for violence of any kind in my view, but until you see and understand the levers (and there are many more than I have mentioned here) that cause the problem you can never hope to fix it. This is not a Maori problem. It is a poverty problem.
Ever wondered why child abuse figures are getting worse in this country and not better?
NewsFlash more and more families are falling below the povertyline. It is NOT an excuse but it IS unfortunately the reality of the situation.
So if you really want to fix the problem get out there and march for lifting families out of poverty.

Dave

Polish. I agree with most of your post. But aside from some bleating about it, lets DO something about it, and change the lives of some.

Sooner or Later, people have to STOP and realize, they can STOP the cycle. They can blame their past, background, parents, upbringing, the state, the government, Jesus, the nuns, the lack of nuns, the police, alcohol, drugs, society, the Jews or whoever else they want to. But, one day, they NEED to take responsibility for themselves, make a stand, and go out and create a better life for themselves and their families. Look at some immigrants, who arrive with NOTHING and a few years later, having saved almost every cent, are buying a very basic home.

I came from a poor family, only part of a secondary education etc etc. I worked 3 jobs (1 full-time, 2 part time) for a few years to pay a mortgage and educate my kids. A lot of my peers slipped and ended up with various criminal records.

Look at an earlier post – there is no point for a lot of people marching and bleating about it, especially those that can make a difference. They would be far better getting on with it and making a difference to a few people, and spreading that goodwill. Marching won’t do a hell of a lot of anything, except get a free lunch for the troughers.

Just think, if Hone and the MAori party got together and started a Feed the poor Kids scheme, and it started to gain traction, showing an improvement in learning and results in Kids the attended. Think of the POWER that gives them to PROVE they have gone SOME GOOD, and then to put pressure on the Government to assist to implement it nationwide……. Cant argue with results can you!

Change comes from the few that dare to change and improve lives of others. So, the Hikoi is worthless, meaningless and unlikely to achieve anything, except push the politicians on TV.

Another $250,000 down the drain, which could have improved the lives of 5,000 kids!! (numbers estimated 10,000 marchers at $25 a head)
- Polishpride
  
  I wholeheartedly agree with everything you have said. I was speaking figuratively about marching.

Polishpride

Here’s another way to bring it home for you. You smug pricks that are happy with all the rightwing policies that shift more and more wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer whilst pushing more and more families below the poverty line putting pressure on these families like you or I for that matter have never experienced – are just as responsible for our kids getting bashed as the ones doing the bashing.

Agent BallSack

You lost me at smug prick you sanctimonious twat. Other that that a good break down in the post above.
- Polishpride
  
  fair call – got a bit angry when I wrote that one. was a bit santimonious – take the smug prick part out and and the message still stands although for many it will be a heard one to accept.
- Agent BallSack
  
  Violence against children is an emotive subject. I think we could generally say that all sides of the political spectrum strongly abhor it. It needs TOP priority amongst Government agencies. I always wonder why the police don’t charge every member of the family with murder when they refuse to give up the offenders? If it was any one from my family, familial loyalty wouldn’t mean a thing when it came to giving evidence.
  
  Ignore the sanctimonious twat comment too Polishpride – it was in direct response to the smug prick comment, which is remarkably close to the ‘rich prick’ comment people bandy about regarding right wing voters. If there is one subject left and right should come together on it’s stopping the killing of our kids.
Salacious T Crumb

Define the poverty line Pp.

You have some relevant points regarding “levers” but I cringe when I hear the “P” word used to describe peoples circumstances in this country.

Also, terminology like “you smug pricks” will undermine any argument you make on this site. Some might even describe your posts as pompous diatribes…. Just a thought,

I am interested in your response to the above nonetheless.
- Polishpride
  
  The imaginary poverty line in my view is where families struggle to easily meet the basic necessities all of the time. It is a difficult one because it is easy to tke a different view of these families and say -yeah but they can afford money for piss and fags but they can’t afford to feed their kids properly – yeah right. And although that is a valid arguement it does nothing to fix the problem for the kids in that situation. I’d even submit that many would prefer a policy where those in that situation have their money managed somehow so they can’t buy smokes and alcohol, or drugs. My problem here is that this will not alleviate the pressure the person finds themselves in, it doesn’t give them a future or a way out of what is a very bleak situation. This in my view won’t even fix the problem i.e. children will still be bashed and abused.
  Think of it like this – Unwritten expectation of society growing up as a guy the responsibility falls on us to provide for our family carve out a place in this world and give our children the best shot in life we can give them. We provide for our family.
  Now put yourself in the place of the guy with the family below the poverty line (I do use this subjective term loosely for lack of a better one to illustrate the point I am trying to make). Do you feel like you have met the expectation of you from society that you have grown up with – No of course not. But it is worse than that not only are you failing, you can see absolutely no way out of the situation you are in even if you want to improve your lot and that of your family you can’t see how. Alcohol, cigarettes in this situation are being used as a coping mechanism (but they often exacerbate the problem) but take them away and you will find many looking for other ways out. Think noose or sucking on exhaust fumes through a pipe in the car with the windows closed.
  So what to do to fix the problem…. As I see it acknowledge it and the reasons for it and find a way to alleviate the pressure (many would stop here but don’t) find a way to give this guy a future, a dream he can work towards. Provide him a path to succeed in society.
  Example – (and I mean just use it as an example only to illustrate the point) take this same man give him 2.5 acres and a dry warm house for him and his family. Teach him how to propogate seeds, take cuttings etc and support him while he learns how to turn the 2.5 acres into something that can feed his family with more than enough. fruit trees, vege gardens and so on he can even sell some of the excess produce. How does he feel now… Grateful…….empowered……like he has a future……like he has a purpose……like he can provide for his family?
  have you solved the child abuse problem?   hopefully for this family at least.
  I
- Salacious T Crumb
  
  Pp, to me true poverty occurs when individuals, or families, have no means of providing the neccesities of life. I dont see that occuring here. Just “struggling” doesnt meet the definition. Most of us have struggled at some stage of our life. We cope and we strive to get ahead.
  
  I have seen true poverty as it exists overseas. No state handouts, no subsidised anything – just nothing but hunger, disease and death. No access to education, governments with no interest in their peoples welfare and little chance to get ahead.
  
  These people dont have the luxury of escapism into booze, drugs or smoking.
  
  I dont see that in this country.
- Polishpride
  
  In Reply to Salicious That maybe so but what you do see in this country is child abuse in greater numbers than almost any other country in the OECD and most problems don’t really defy logic in my experience. Yes there are people worse off in other countries but perhaps societies expectations in those countries are significantly different to here in a country that is supposed to be 1st world. The problem is as I have said along with a number of other factors (eg. hard to get motivated when you are 3rd generation welfare) so two options cut the welfare altogether. or provide a path out of poverty and give these families a future, break the cycle so to speak. What works for you and me to have a future isn’t going to work for them unfortunately. As I said earlier the solution is multifacited but starts with 1. lifting the pressure and 2. providing an achievable bright and empowered future.
  For some this will be too hard or they will make other excuses for not facing and fixing the problem and we will be in a worse situation on this same front in 5 years time if nothing changes.
In Vino Veritas

Polish, that comment is just nonsense and is just rabid ideological claptrap promoted by socialists. And I’m not convinced about your previous comment regarding socio economic factors. Socio economic conditions shouldnt be used as an excuse, as you appear to be arguing. Otherwise any excuse could be made and have automatic merit.

It’d would probably behove of you to have a look at the IQ’s of the people in that socio economic group and the numbers regarding battered kids. (and socio economic factors don’t make people dumb)
- Polishpride
  
  So your cause in looking at child abuse is that the whole problem is people with Low IQs…..? well if that were the case Oz would have a much bigger problem than we do.
  VV I did say that there are a number of other factors. IQ could be one factor when combined with a number of others. The solution however remains the same. It depends on how long people want to sit around arguing about it verses actually doing something about it….. you know for the kids….What I do know is the current system is making this problem worse not better and the fact that poverty is on the increase here at the same time child abuse is on the increase speaks volumes in my view. btw I couldn’t give a toss about any isms, all I care about are solutions that work for everyone in society and we are a long way from that with any ism tried to date.

Arranh

Some ones low income is not an excuse for child abuse. How about we stop making excuses for everyone that does something wrong. Lets end this victim mentality that Labour brought in that removes accountability.

Polishpride

No it is not an excuse for child abuse. There is no excuse for child abuse. There are however reasons/factors that result in it and it depends on whether you care enough to actually look at those reasons and do something about them. Saying how about we stop making excuses does absolutely nothing to fix the problem.
As child abuse happens in this country at all let alone in the numbers that it does means that if you do really care about this issue you will look a little deeper into the common factors that seem to exist and look to eliminate them alltogether so that child abuse in New Zealand becomes a thing of the past.
Or you can sit in your own home and when someone asks why and what can we do to stop it, shoot back with who cares why just stop making excuses which is more or less what you have done and fixes nothing.

jay cee

i’m not sure labour brought in the victim mentality, thats been around for ages. but i do know that labour brought in the “its not alright” campaign to try and break the cycle of child/spouse abuse.

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