Because Gay Rights are Human Rights

ŠĒ• Andrew Sullivan

Andrew Sullivan posts about why he is so passionate about gay marriage.

You can feel secure but without civil marriage, you aren’t. So many of us learned this in the plague years – watching de facto spouses denied entrance to hospital rooms, thrown out of shared apartments by the spouse’s family, denied access to the funeral, brutalized by those who never cared for someone until he died. I swore to myself then that this would be my life’s work: to prevent such horror from happening again. We’ve made a start. But as this video shows, we are not close to the end yet. And that churches –¬†churches¬†– should be in the vanguard of brutalizing these people in this way – and justifying it –¬† fills me with oceans of sadness. And grief again.

How can anyone deny basic rights to those in a committed relationship? How is that conservative? How is that just? And how can politicians promote something as meaningless as a gay mardi gras instead of something as meaningful as marriage?

  • Kosh103

    Haters are going to hate. Thats how they can deny human rights to homosexual. Through nothing else but hate. They can dress it up however they like, but in the end it comes down to hate.

    • Gaz

      Kosh, how many times do I have to tell you I don’t hate you – I disagree with you.

      Seriously.

    • davewin

       And think you and homosexuals are a bunch or exhibitionist bores!

  • Mitch

    Release the bigots!

    • Rodger T

      ……..

    • Rodger T

      + 1

  • Andrei

    The one thing the left is good as is BULLSHIT.

    And all those grievances that Andrew Sullivan puts forth are BULLSHIT.

    You can put anybody you like down as next of kin and always have been able to.

    You can make anybody you like beneficiary of your will – even your cat.

    Andrew Sullivan is full of crap.

    This is pure emotional propaganda, trite nonsense

    • Random66

      I must admit when he was refering to the ‘plague years’ and having defacto spouses denied entrance into hospital rooms, my first thought was society at that time had little respect for ‘mistresses’¬†and a mans intentions and how he viewed¬†a woman¬†were clearly defined¬†in society by a wedding ring.¬† How can¬†Andrew now be equating how a person out of wedlock was treated back then to that¬†of a¬†current civil union partnership where there is¬†a clear legal standing.¬† It would seem he is chasing the ever elusive cloak of respectability because none of those examples he gave¬†could be applied today if that person is your legal¬†partner.¬† Agree with you Andrei, purely emotive and out of context.

    • Polishpride

      Way to avoid directly addressing any of the issues put forawrd. All those grievances Andrew put forth are bullshit? are you saying these things never happened!?! If you are you clearly live on a different plnet to everyone else. If your not saying that then¬†you may not like it but what Andrew is saying is clearly not ‘Bullshit’
      What are you afraid of Andrei? Are you¬†sacred that if¬†Gays are allowed to marry you will somehow be at risk of becoming Gay too? Perhaps your scared that you won’t be able to hate and discriminate anylonger.
      Its ok buddy, Its not an affliction, its not a disease, It’s not something you catch, It’s quite natural. And unfortunately you’ll still be able to hate and discriminate to your hearts content.¬†You’ll also look like a complete idiot when you do so but thats no different to now either.¬†¬†¬†¬†¬†

    • Polishpride

      This isn’t a Left or Right issue, it’s not even a Gay issue. Its a human rights issue.

      Heres a an exercise for you think back over your life and work out who taught you to hate and why.   

      • carpentaro

        This is the same “not left or right” stance that the Greens are taking.
        What is being pushed for is “if you disagree, you’re wrong, shut up”.
        This IS a liberal-conservative issue.
        “Homophobic” was coined as an effort to clinically define an aversion.
        I’d question the “natural” aspect. Although this does happen in other species, this is still an anomoloy.

  • Russell Belding

    WO claims gay rights are human rights without discussing either. No point in disagreeing with a non-argument.

    • Polishpride

      Are you suggesting to be Gay is somehow to be subhuman Russell?

      • Russell Belding

        No PP I am not. A person can bear the image of their Creator no matter what they practice or think or feel.

      • Mediaan

        Well, to interject, I will happily suggest they could improve their behaviour.

        f they cared about non-gay others, stayed well away from kids, and tried to carry a fair load in society, that would help.

        While they are so blatantly converting the young to homosexuality, why don’t they voluntarily start up a register of homosexuals, and then people who care about their kids having a non-gay teacher could choose it?

        I guess they are not into rights for others, or choices for others.

      • Mitch

        Replying to Mediaan here:

        That’s a really good idea. We could even get them all to tattoo an identification number on their wrists and wear a pink armband. We might even be able to give them their own suburb to live in.. a weekend retreat out in the country.. lovely train ride to get them their.

  • Jman

    Can civil union partners get entrance to the hospital room? Get their names on the  lease? Get access to the funeral?

  • Agent BallSack

    Do gays own the most cats?

  • starboard

    who gives a flying fuck. Get over themselves.

    • Polishpride

      And therein lies the problem. To not give a flying fuck about the discrimination/oppression of your fellow man is well …Inhuman.¬†¬†

      • TravisPoulson

        Some of us are over pandering to the attention seekers. 

  • BJ

    Human rights are for each and every individual. Gay rights are about a particular group that they identify with. They are not the same conversation and it is making mischief to suggest otherwise.

    • Polishpride

      Am I correct in that I have read your post as effectively saying Human rights and Gay rights are not the same thing!!??!!
      If I have then you do not understand what human rights are about or seek to achieve.
      The simple fact is that there should not even have to be ‘Gay Rights’ It should come under human rights. But the lables are a convenient way for everyday people to discriminate and deny rights to a section of society.Worse still is when this is done under the guise of religion.¬†

      • Gaz

        hey Polish Sausage – instead of getting all tiffy about something so vague and ethereal as “gay rights” – why not focus your energies on some real human rights discrimination?

        I’m talking about the rights of women in Islamic countries.

        I’m talking about the rights of non-muslims in Islamic countries to exercise freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
         

  • Harry Young

    If we want a¬†society that treats us fairly, we have to “give a flying fuck” and encourage society¬†to treat others fairly.

  • Kosh103

    I always enjoy reading hetros comments about how us homos are being all emotive and what not when it comes to rights that they have always had and we either dont have or have only recently gotten.

    Looking at history from their nice safe place must give them such a lovely view of things.

    • Agent BallSack

      Puhlease Kosh. We’re not any different. Stop pretending we are.

      • Kosh103

        Really. You have the right to have either a CU or a marriage as a hetro Рtell me do I as queer have the same right of choice as you do?

      • Gaz

        Kosh – but you do have¬†a right to be married, same as anyone else’s.¬†

        Just find a girl who’s willing.

        If however you’re talking about “marrying” a man – wrong concept.

        Invent your own.

      • Random66

        You know Kosh I don’t think I have ever heard someone with your sexual orientation refer to themselves as being ‘queer’.¬† If you looked up the meaning in the dictionary I think you would be unpleasantly surprised.

    • Boss Hogg

      Hey Kosh РI hear there have been lots of UFO sightings up your part of the country.  Colourful lights in the sky Рdo you think the are gay?   How about the ghost down south РGay?

      • Kosh103

        Hey Boss I see you cant come up with a reasoned arguement so your spouting garbage.

    • davewin

       It does, and we want it to continue.

  • Mitch

    The people who against gay marriage are likely descendants of those who cried “Outrage!” when some guy claimed the world was spherical, rather than flat.

    We gave women the right to vote despite people like you, we banned slavery despite people like you, and death by stoning is no longer the punishment for insolent children or those who work on the Sabbath – despite people like you.Despite the image of a clean, green, open minded and progressive country we seem to have, we’re not much different than a backward little town in the USA’s bible belt.

  • Packer1440

    Legal rights? Absolutely. Civil union? Absolutely. Using the word ‘marriage’? No. The definition is changing here……….. Not equality. Emulative behaviour guised as equality.

    • Polishpride

      Re Packer – It appears the online dictionary does not agree with you.
      1.a.the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc. Antonyms: separation.
      b. a similar institution involving partners of the same gender: gay marriage. Antonyms: separation.
      2. the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage. Synonyms: matrimony. Antonyms: single life, bachelorhood, spinsterhood, singleness; separation.
      3. the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of two people to live as a married couple, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage. Synonyms: nuptials, marriage ceremony, wedding. Antonyms: divorce, annulment.
      4. a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage.

    • Polishpride

      Packer You do realise that if Gay Marriage beciomes legal it doesn’t mean you have to have one yourself right?

      • Packer1440

        No. The definitions you provide further give weight to what I’m saying. Look at 1a. Clear as day. Husband and wife. Then look at 1b – it says a ‘similar’ institution. ‘Similar’… – On another note, do gay people want gay marriage or just marriage? That would be interesting. Also, revealing.

      • dyannt

        What is a “Gay Marriage”?
        Surely you mean marriage for Gays?

      • Kosh103

        No Packer – its marriage equality. Simple as that.

    • Mitch

      How, exactly, does applying the word ‘marriage’ to a gay civil union affect you negatively, or in any way that would cause you to be against it? Surely you can’t be arguing this over the sanctity of a dictionary definition..

      • Dynamitey88

        Words are concepts and ideas my friend.

  • Russell Belding

    Some of the comments in this thread are over cooked. WO poated a comment from Andrew Sullivan and Sullivan has an idea about what he means by “marriage”. WO may have a list of expectations about human rights. The topic raises all sorts of issues particularly about what we mean by “marriage” and¬†“human rights”. “Gay Rights” is another fuzzy notion. Conflict sometimes forces clarity. The conversations here are mostly quick and dirty condemnations of opposing views or goading the battlers; but with notable exceptions. To believe a “marriage” is only between a man and a woman is not to hate anyone. ¬†

  • dyannt

    I still believe the only matter Parliament should be legislating on is the union of two people who want to register their intent to construct a permanent relationship. That union should be formalised in a legal ‘setting’. i.e. a Goverment Registrar.
    Any other ceremony is a social construct and ‘additional’ to the legal requirements. Like a ceremony in a church; with a marriage celebrant; whatever. Therefore, there is no need for Government interference in personal choice.

  • grumpy

    This has nothing to do with Marriage – it’s about adopting children.¬† …but if they just came out and said that, the public wouldn’t wear it, so the gay pedophile lobby want “marriage” as a guise to adopt kids.

    • Mitch

      The ‘gay pedophile lobby’.. awesome. You win the internet for today.

    • Kosh103

      Wow you really are a massive fuckng hate filled idiot.

    • Pukakidon

      Mitch are you Koshs partner, because he uses that statement all the time “You win the internet for today”¬† or are you actually Kosh as well!!!

      • Mitch

        I’m straight, and it’s a pretty common statement that means ‘you’re a fucking moron’.

      • Pukakidon

        ¬†And here is a another saying ” you win the hide behind the internet like a little wimp and call people names award”¬†¬† Because if you said that to my face you would be shitting your teeth for a week.

      • Kosh103

        Oh look puka is showing his stupid again.

      • Pukakidon

         Quick Kosh log in as Mitch again and give me some more jip.

      • Kosh103

        Tell me puka, do you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?

      • TravisPoulson


        Oh look puka is showing his stupid again.”

        I don’t even think I need to point it out…..

      • Pukakidon

         Kosh do you mean wrong like supporting corrupt Members of Parliament? or do you mean wrong in having one opinion about Banks and then having the opposite opinion in regards to Labour corruption.

      • Kosh103

        Yet again Puka is wrong.

  • tarkwin

    I don’t dislike gay people, It’s just the up hill gardening that puts me off.

  • Gaz

    Dyannt – I’m comnig around to that idea.

    Problem is that people like Kosh don’t just want¬†a title (i.e. “marriage”) – they want our approval.¬†

    And they want the government to legislate for that.

    Not the government’s job.

    We could make a civil union the equal of marriage in terms of legal rights, and he still wouldn’t be satisfied.

    He’s wanting to deny others the right to disagree with him.

    • Kosh103

      Telling lies I see Gaz. I would never want your type of approval. Hell I love the fact you disapprove. When homophobes like you disapprove, it means I am on the right side of the arguement.

      • Gibbyhaer75

        Exposed my friend. Exposed.

  • Super_Guest

    Compromise, I’m a big fan of it. If the problem is that gays can’t adopt under civil unions, why not give gays the right to adopt under civil unions. And you’ve now got the same rights. That ways it’s just an argument of semantics, and semantics don’t generally go hand-in-hand with human rights. I don’t recall¬† MLK saying that he had a dream that one day all black Americans would be referred to as “African Americans”.

    • Gaz

      see my post above. 

      Poor little Kosh doesn’t want the same rights as others.¬†

      He wants our approval.

      Poor little victim.

      • Kosh103

        Oh Gaz I want many many thing, but the approval of anyone on here aint one of them. Get over yourself you jumped up little homophobic fool.

      • Guest

         Hah! The irony of Kosh telling someone to get over themselves.

      • Gibbyhaer75

         Nail on the head Gaz. Look at him squirm.

      • Kosh103

        Gibby, the only ones squirming are the haters and the sick homophobes. Are you one too?

  • Gaz

    “Because gay rights are human rights” – says who?

    • Andrei

      It is just a slogan – it doesn’t mean anything, anything at all.¬†

      • Kosh103

        No you 2 haters, its a fact. Lets take your right to marry off you and see how long it takes for your homophobic kind to grasp this fact.

    • TravisPoulson

      kosh: you never had the right to marry taken away from you, don’t lie. You have every right to get married.¬†

      • Kosh103

        Ahhh and trav is trying that pathetic stupid fucked up positon that gays can marry as long as they marry someone they may not love, be attracted to etc…

        There is a very apt word to describe you Trav.

      • TravisPoulson

        “aaah…ooooh…..LMAO……more lies….Oooh dear….haters….homophobes…..”

        Same words, different day. Snore.

      • Kosh103

        And Trav they are as true today as they have always been. If you cannot handle having the truth told about you then you are free to go and cower somewhere else where the homophobic fuckers all meet and cry about how us gays now run everything.

      • TravisPoulson

        That time of the month is it Paul Gordon-Ruddell/kosh103? Aren’t we in a frantic wee pickle tonight.

        “homophobic fuckers”. Oh dear. Tut tut.

      • Kosh103

        Oh my travis trying to threaten me again I see. Well it wont work. I will never back down when confronted by homophobic sick people like you. Threaten me all you like I am going no where and in the end all us queers will win and have full rights and people like you will be seen for the disturbed people that you are.

      • TravisPoulson

        Oh my this, oh my that……

  • tarkwin

    Sorry, I’m just not into up hill gardeners. is that so bad?

    • Kosh103

      Depends on what you mean. Its not something for you but if thats how they are then fine. Thats normal and fine.

      Eww thats fucking unnatural and they will burn in hell – thats homophobic.

      • Grumpy

        You are a heterophobic little twat kosh. A real hater, by far the worst on this site. To make it worse you try to claim credibility as a teacher, only you keep changing your story and posting at time when a real teacher would be in class…..oh, but now you are ” teaching teachers ” FFS

        You are a sad little hard done by loser in this world. Never mind, just blame the government, the straights and the system.

      • Kosh103

        Oh how cute grumpy the homophobe is getting all pissy and telling more lies.

      • Rufus

         Actually grumpy РI wonder if Kosh is more than one person.  Sometimes his posting is all bad spelling, bad grammar, and just hate vomited all over the screen.  Lots of slang reminiscent of poorly educated, street urchins and yoof.

        At other times his spelling, grammar and composition is perfectly acceptable.¬† Compare his posts on here with the ones on the “buffoon” thread.

        Possible reasons:

        * He could be more than one different persons.
        * He could get so emotionally worked up with anything to do with his little gay crusade that it affects his reasoning and his motor skills.
        * He could be on the sauce.

      • Grumpy

        Yep Rufus,

        He certainly is very unhinged, either separate people or personalities, and I use that word very loosely.

        Certainly his multiple personalities are full of hatred as his bile filled comments on any topic show.

      • Pukakidon

        ¬†He has his usual sayings, like “oh you win the internet”, so I caught him out being Mitch his straight alter ego before.

      • Kosh103

        Its always cute when homophobic ◊§◊ē◊ß◊ß◊ė◊ź÷∑◊®◊ď blather on in nice hate filled ways. I can assure you to losers that there is only one person posting behind this name.

      • Rufus

        ¬†Hi Kosh – I see you’ve been showing people the love of Christ again tonight.

        You’re a poor witness for your beliefs, brother.

      • Rufus

        ¬†Kosh – didn’t you promise someone the other day you wouldn’t use the term “fucktard” anymore?

        You lied.

        Why can you not present your case without all of the abuse?

      • Kosh103

        Oh rufus, swing and a miss I have not used that word at all. Nice try idiot.

      • Rufus

        Sorry Kosh, but when I type your ”¬†◊§◊ē◊ß◊ß◊ė◊ź÷∑◊®◊ď” into Google translate, it comes up with “fokktard” – which pronounced sounds¬†awfully¬†similar to “fucktard”, don’t you think?

        Why the need to call me an idiot?

  • Shane Jones

    Kosh is Stan (Loretta) from The Life of Brian. You can’t marry a man or have babies Kosh, but you can fight the oppressors for the right to have babies and marry a man.

  • DrCP

    Awwww…..isn’t that Cameron Slater nice about this?¬†

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, not even homosexuals care for “gay marriage”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/299944/gay-divorcees-charles-c-w-cooke#

  • Pukakidon

    Hey Kosh, what say you in regards to all these Same Sex marriages not lasting very long.  

    The Lesbians don’t seem to be doing very well.¬†¬† The institution of marriage is already on the rocks with Heterosexuals, is it going to be made worse statistically with the addition of Homosexuals, 167% (for females) and 50% (for males) more likely to fail than Heterosexuals marriages. ¬† It does not necessarily mean gay marriage is not right because there are obviously many that last, but it is not really a good start in convincing the masses.

    • Kosh103

      LMAO – Ill belive your numbers more if there was a link from stats NZ or someone else with credibility. But coming from you – yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Ill pass on them being honest.

      • TravisPoulson

        are you on the piss kosh?

      • Pukakidon

         The figures are taken from DrCPs link to the nationalreview, care to comment?

        Or just throw abuse?

      • Kosh103

        Not at all Trav. Given Puka’s past I would not trust him if he told me the sky was blue unless he cited several scientists of high standing to back him up.

        But I understand why you would support him.

      • Kosh103

        Id care to see a link, follow it, look at it and make sure you are not wrong as you usually are.

        I would also say that if those are the numbers then 1: those are the numbers but no reason to deny human rights, and 2: good lord you didnt lie for a change. Thats if you are right of cause.

    • Mitch

      Stats from a 2004 survey from Norway/Sweden. Despite it having little to do with the argument here, it’s quite an interesting paper.

      http://www.uni-koeln.de/wiso-fak/fisoz/conference/papers/p_andersson.pdf

      • Pukakidon

         Mitch

        As¬† said before I don’t care about gay marriage, as far as I am concerned marriage is for everyone.¬†¬† However rather than just shouting obscenities at every one who has a statement to make, I merely pointed out a fact that could be discussed. ¬†¬†

        The figures and facts contained in your paper are also mentioned in the US study. Although the figures are not as extreme as the US figures, they are significant. For some reason Lesbian couples are twice as likely to divorce than Male homosexuals.   And Male homosexuals in both countries are 50% more likely to divorce than heterosexuals. I dont know why but those are the facts.

        What should be discussed is why so many people are getting married on both sides without a serious commitment.   The problem is that marriage is nearly a dead proposition because it is no longer taken seriously. 

        I would suggest like Heterosexuals, homosexuals need to consider very carefully before entering into the marriage obligation. It is no longer the institution that it was.

        If Helun had of had the gumption she would have made it legal at the time, and we would not be having this daily argument. However the UN job was more important, so if there is anyone to blame, look at the last Labour Government.

  • Tim G.

    You really are a psychological anomaly, Slater.

    It is so funny watching your little readers so confused at you championing the cause against “gay discrimination” given that you have no difficulty discriminating against people on the basis of their political orientation and religion. Goodness know why you have picked up the gay cause.

    The way you see others in your borderline personality disordered world, its full of “left-wing low lifes/scum” and “pinkoes”, your followers are devoutly anti-Islamic and most of them also anti-gay. Can’t you see you’re confusing their simplistic little world views?

    • Kosh103

      What I find funny is how quick people on the board turn against WO/leave the site when he doesnt express views they like all the time. Shows what happens on the right if you stray from the pack.

      • Groans

        All this won’t be an issue once they find a cure for your sexual problem

      • Kosh103

        How cute another homophobic dickwack joins in on denouncing human rights.

    • Jester

      I am neither anti Islam nor anti gay but I do have a deep loathing for uppity fuckwits like you Tim.

      Just saying.

      • StacyMcNaught

         ditto Jester

    • Pukakidon

       Tim

      Where is the evidence that WOs followers are devoutly anti-islamic.   If you cant prove it then you are a liar.

      What I find refreshing is that here people get to express their view, and there are many points of view. Take a look at your Labour sites, they are run as if Stalin was chief propaganda minister and moderator. The Labour commentators are always snide and dishonest and in most cases just repeat the same old party line, very boring.    They are the type who only vote Labour because their dad voted labour, they can not make their own mind up.  Go back there and moan with your other dissenters, you small minded lillte man, your group is getting smaller.

    • Rufus

      ¬†Tim G – I’ve often wondered the same things.¬†

      I guess one of the reasons is that he’s a ratings whore.¬†

      Nothing will bring more comments on your site than something as controversial and polarising as homosexuality.¬† Mix in some religion and politics, and you’ve got a winner.

      • Pukakidon

         Rufus

        Of course that is why WO puts it on here it generates over 100 comments each time.   Does not really take a genius to work that out.   I suppose it does no harm if the stats are up, it has made him Number one afterall.  He probably needs to send Kosh a big bunch of flowers.

  • FoodTechie

    Regarding access to ‘medical stuff’, if¬†you don’t have the necessary legal documentation (power of attorney) to instruct medical personnel, you have no authority, whatever your relationship to the ill person.A friend in a man/woman marriage, whose husband needed surgery, and quickly, could only learn what was going on if her husband was present in meetings with medical staff due to privacy laws. Being legally married, in this situation, doesn’t allow (and I mean allow) medical staff to share information. One needs a power of attorney for medical matters, which is different than a power of attorney over legal matters. Check it out!¬†
    While I believe gays shouldn’t be denied the rights of marriage, whether legal or church, we should be aware that a legal marriage, by whatever pathway, doesn’t necessarily confer all the rights one imagines it does. If your partner/husband/ becomes gravely ill, and you don’t have the necessary legal documentation to instruct medical personnel, you have no authority, whatever your relationship to the ill person.

  • workingman

    I am fairly new to this discussion. Can someone please explain the difference between a civil union and a marriage, apart from the name of course. Does a civil union give people less rights than a marriage?

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