Churches for marriage equality

Last week I posted about the Catholic bishops’ letter to Generation Y on the marriage equality issue.  Fifty church leaders (from various denominations) have now written directly to the Catholic bishops on their position of support for marriage equality.  The church leaders come from Anglican, Presbytarian, Methodist and Quaker denominations.  In their letter to the Catholic bishops they say:

“We think it’s time the Church recognises and encourages those in same-gender relationships who wish to pledge their love and fidelity to each other in the rite of marriage,”

“To suggest, as you do, that marriage based on biblical precepts is frozen in stone and cannot develop or change is to ignore reality.”

 

  • Isumbras

    Well those Protestants never let a chance pass by to further reduce their flocks and drift deeper into irrelevance….

    • Random66

      ‘drift deeper into irrelevance’ is right. I said the other day christians need to get back to basics and start living their lives in the manner Jesus expected us to and the early church did so that once again we become different and relevant. The only real question here for any christian is what did God say on the subject and then whether we personally agree with it or not, we should accept it as being right.

      • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

        “what did God say on the subject” – a question that will never have a definitive answer unless you go to Heaven (whether somewhere some place somewhere else or someday some place on earth) and converse directly with God. It is an extremely subjective concept that is always open to interpretation. In my view at no point does the bible refer to consensual, loving, committed adult same sex relationships. It instead refers mostly to rape by heterosexual masters of their male slaves.

        “christians need to get back to basics and start living their lives in the manner Jesus expected us to” – I would assume means loving and accepting others, do what is right in your own lives and leaving judging up to God.

        • Not holier than thou

          I just cant help it after reading all your posts that you seem to think that you have cracked it, nailed it on the head !
          The meaning of life ,how the bible is meant to be interpreted???
          You dont seriously believe you are Gods messenger? Or do you??

          • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

            I have nailed it on the head – I am not God’s specially chosen messenger with a God given right to impose my moral code on others & neither is anyone else.

            3 things I know for certain: God made no one judge & jury, God does not make mistakes and God loves.

          • Random66

            Agree that perhaps it is not ok to impose our moral code on to others Unsol, however I believe a christian should still recognise our own code and not try to adjust or adapt it to make the masses of our time happy. Jesus does infact when instructing us on marriage say, ‘The one who can accept this should accept it.’ (Mat 19:12) which would imply it is optional. I have really looked at this more recently Unsol and when reading Mat 19:1-12 I can’t move past him refering to ‘male and female’ joined together by God and all references Jesus made when speaking of marriage were singular between one man and one wife and he goes on to say if a man divorces his wife and takes another wife for any reason other than marital unfaithfulness then he commits adultry. So while polygamy may have been accepted in days of old by man, it would seem Jesus didn’t endorse it by saying ‘have as many wives as you want mate’. I know you didn’t bring this aspect into the conversation but I see the letter written by the 50 church leaders did and just thought their take on that was more OT than NT. What I do however agree with is whatever the family dynamic they should be accepted and welcomed into the church because you are quite correct it is not our place to judge. We should however not be afraid to hold tight to His original teaching though, even if it is unpopular.

          • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

            I agree re polygamy. After reading M & M’s post the other day I looked into it more also. It seems that while polygamy was accepted practice, I don’t think the Bible ever explicitly condoned it.

            In terms of Jesus’ original teachings – that again is something I think is incredibly subjective. Dr Mayman – a theologian, is a lesbian and a Presbytarian Minister who is pro gay marriage whereas a theologian who is a Bishop/Minister of a different denomination may feel the complete opposite is true.
            But I think these things should be kept completely separate from the State
            In terms of my position – I dont really know what to make of the Bible re its definition of marriage. It is a real gray area for me – like many other aspects of it I guess. But I do know for certain how the Bible and how God defines love. So for me I am most concerned about applying that to my own life, my own marriage and my own family and letting God to work out the rest.
            Note that despite my strong position on here, I would say I am more pro protecting the rights of all individuals rather than just being pro equality for the LGBT community. I would argue against a church being made to marry a gay couple (which I do not believe would happen) as vehemently as I argue for marriage equality. I am completely against the rights of any group imposing on another.
            So yes, I too think that Christians should most definitely have the same rights as others to live their lives according to their own moral code, their own values and how they feel God has instructed them – I can understand why you might feel that the rights of Christians never seem as important as the rights of others. For example re Middleton Grange (evangelical school in CHCH) being fined a couple of years ago for firing a gay teacher (netball coach – see http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/3943114/School-fires-gay-netball-coach). I felt that this was completely unfair and inappropriate. I felt that the onus should have been on the gay teacher who knowingly applied for a job at a school whose values precluded his being ‘actively’ gay.

          • Ronnie Chow

            See the mountain , climb the mountain , then become the mountain .
            Congratulations .

          • Ronnie Chow

            We are all God , sunshine . Get over it .

        • Rodger T

          …….

    • Andrew Carrot

      Didn’t the Pope do much the same thing last week by allowing condoms?!!

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        He didn’t allow condoms – that article was a misinterpretation of what Pope Benedict said about condoms two years ago.

      • Ronnie Chow

        God No . Condoms means less Catholics . It’s a game .

    • Ronnie Chow

      Well , if you Catholics can’t get humans right , then you sure as hell haven’t understood your basic mission .

  • Andrei

    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

  • Apolonia

    It should read 50 church members. The article says “ministers and lay members.”
    No doubt they belong to “the church of the empty pew”
    They show their intolerance by suggesting others are not allowed a different view to theirs.

    • Ronnie Chow

      No , they’re showing up your stone age theology written for witless superstitious serfs and still working well on the likes of you .

  • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

    “To suggest, as you do, that marriage based on biblical precepts is frozen in stone and cannot develop or change is to ignore reality.”…biblical precepts which many argue have been taken well out of context and have no validity whatsoever in terms of the hateful propaganda most commonly used by churches to marginalise & ostracize people.

    All the while claiming to follow in Jesus’ footsteps. Ironic.

    • Andrei

      in terms of the hateful propaganda most commonly used by churches to marginalise & ostracize people

      You are not really very familiar with what happens in Church are you?

      Funnily enough there is an expectation that all the people there have difficulties and struggles to overcome – there is no finger pointing going on at all ever and nobody is “ostracized”.

      • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

        Andrei it is because I am very familiar with church that I say the things I do.

        No finger pointing – have you re-read your comments on this issue?

      • Goldie

        Andrei,
        You earlier claimed that the purpose of marriage was procreation. I asked whether that meant that elderly or infertile people couldn’t marry, but I never saw your answer. I am still interested in your response.

  • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

    It’s a bit of a laugh, really. We are at that point now where Catholics are going to become more Catholic, not less.

    • Rodger T

      Wonderful, so when and where will you start burning the heretics and witches?

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        Don’t worry, Rodger, all that burning stuff doesn’t happen until after death.

        • Rodger T

          Yeah,sure it does ,LoL.
          History not your strong point ,Lucia?

          • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

            Rodger,

            If you actually studied history, you would know that the Church courts were far more lenient than the secular courts, and did not impose the death penalty. If there was any burning to be done, it was either a mob, or the secular government.

          • sandynobb

            Lucia – you’re clutching at faggots. The Roman Catholic Church judged;
            the secular authorities then burnt at it’s behest so no blood, soot, or
            ash besmirched the priests. Plausible deniability.

          • Ronnie Chow

            Yeah right , you’re the good guys ; Hitler , pedophilia , a diseased overcrowded condom-less future notwithstanding .

        • Gayguy

          And a lot of so called Christians may find themselves on the bad end as they pass from this world Lucia. I would suggest people such as yourself pay more attention to what Christ said about love, as opposed to what Jewish priests said about temple law.

    • Lion_ess

      Hi Lucia, I’m still waiting for your answer to your post from last night
      “The ultimate punishments occur after death – not before”
      Still hoping you will share “what the ultimate punishments after death might be?”

      I sincerely hope that you are not a stupid person merely repeating another stupid person’s comment

      • Ronnie Chow

        Your physical body dies and your spirit is absorbed into the ether , of which it is a condensed part of , much like a water drop evaporating . No heaven or hell . Sorry .

        • Lion_ess

          Clearly my mirth wasn’t showing

  • davewin

    As a former Anglican I can say that there is nothing so daft and addleheaded that an Anglican Bishop or Priestess has not said it. In favour of Homosexual marriage – spare me – they want to recognise their own position at the expense of what any others may want or believe.

    Anglicanism is demonstrating what it always was – Catholicism Light for Losers.

  • LesleyNZ

    Not sure which Christian religion or God the Revd Glynn Cardy of St Matthews-in-the-City, Auckland and the Revd Dr Margaret Mayman of St Andrews Presbyterian Church in Wellington believe in. Do they actually read the Bible? Doesn’t seem like they do.

    • davewin

      Read – certainly not! But having said that i prefer the baying of 50 atheists to the ramblings of a couple of apostates.

      • Ronnie Chow

        I prefer trilobites , they’re so quiet . God made those less than 6,000 years ago , according to my new religion this week , which I believe goes well with Spring . Ah , Creationism . My new Castle .
        Hello over there , Fort Rebecca/Lucia Maria . Got any sugar ?

        • davewin

          They’re better with tomato sauce

    • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

      There you go driving your Hillman Hunter at 80km again Lesley. What an utterly nonsensical thing to say.

      Rev Dr Mayman has a Masters in Philosophy, degree in Christian ethics and Phd in Theology. She and they are far more equipped to have an opinion on this than any of us, including you.

  • Graeme A

    This is just a press release from the most liberal Church in Auckland that actively promotes and supports the homosexual lifestyle. I wouldn’t expect anything different from st matthew-in-the-city. Press releases from the governing bodies of the mayor Christian denominations with their respective stand on same sex marriage would be more interesting.

  • LesleyNZ

    God looks at the “heart” – the soul, the spiritual side of mankind – not how many degrees you have. You can have all the degrees in the world in Bibical theology etc and still lack understanding and wisdom about what the Bible teaches. Nothing wrong with a Hillman Hunter going 80km. Probably can’t go much faster.

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