Catholic Bishops on marriage equality

No surprises here that the Catholics are against marriage equality. ¬†They have taken the unusual step of appealing to Generation Y – I didn’t know they could vote. ¬†Perhaps this is the Catholic church’s new hip, young division? ¬†I am sure Generation Y (and all the other generations) are looking forward to the church changing its stance on the role of women, the way they deal with pedo priests, and may be even allow women to use the pill.

Catholic Bishops Pastoral Letter

  • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

    If you use 1982 as a starting year for Gen Y, they can vote. They are the ones that go to the World Youth Days.

    If you really understood the Church’s stance on women and the pill (which the Bishops can’t stop Catholic women from taking if they want to take it – free will and all!), then you wouldn’t want the Church to change her stance on this. I certainly don’t.

    Give it a rest with the paedo priests. You might as well say paedo NZ’ers, given the number we seem to have in this country.

    • Ronnie Chow

      From Wikipedia ;
      “n A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse by Thomas Plante,
      a psychiatrist specializing in abuse counseling and considered an
      expert on clerical abuse, he states “approximately 4% of priests during
      the past half century (and mostly in the 1960s and 1970s) have had a
      sexual experience with a minor.”[9][40] According to Newsweek magazine, the figure is similar to that in the rest of the adult population.[41]”
      Given the high moral status of Priests , 1 out of 25 is too high a number for any of them to have any legitimacy whatsoever . The Catholic Leadership are in denial and like any other organization harboring serious criminals it should be forced to purge ALL of it’s members who abetted this most abhorrent of scandals .

      • Lion_ess

        The worst hypocrite is a holy hypocrite in fact I sometimes wonder whether the boy buggery was merely covered up, or whether in fact it is just becoming uncovered.

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        And, when studied, up to half of abuse allegations against priests have been found to be false, especially since the Church has been paying out victims without even checking if their stories stack up.

        • le sphincter

          Really ? There are many suicides of people who are not around to pick up a payment, because Bishops refused to act and were criminally negligent , right up to the level of Cardinal

          • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

            It’s the best scam around for people wanting to make a quick buck. Fortunately, a number of these people are starting to get caught, but not enough to act as a deterrent.

          • Ronnie Chow

            You are now publicly belittling and degrading the many thousands of victims damaged beyond repair by Catholic Priests . Shame on you .

          • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

            No, I am not. The people who make false claims do that.

          • Rodger T

            Ronnie you are up against a text book case of Cognitive Dissonance.

          • Lion_ess

            Um, the church is the best scam around for making a buck

    • Lion_ess

      Struggling to reconcile people banging on about religion in one breath, then whining about leaving the pedophile priests alone in the next. FFS go back to fairy-land

  • Just saying

    Gen Y NZers can’t vote for or against the bill, only MPs can. A couple of Gen Y MPs – I wonder how they will vote.

  • kowtow

    From today’s ODT,the excellent Fr Brian Fenton on this issue.
    http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/221936/marriage-mainly-about-children

  • auto_immune

    You have to remember that the behaviour of Catholic bishops (and by extension Priests and Lay leaders) are monitored by the Nunzio, so if they didn’t vocally oppose gay marriage, they’d get tattled on.

    • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz Whaleoil

      Yeah but if they bugger boys then they get it all covered up and a promotion.

      • http://www.facebook.com/bob.murphy.7712 Bob Murphy

        Whale normally I agree with most things you say, however in this respect I must disagree. You seem to have an abnormal obsession regarding Catholics, suggesting maybe that you were tampered with by a Presbyterian scoutmaster in your youth. Please note that Catholics are not the only religion that has proscriptions against homosexual behaviour and are not the only group of people that have some that break the rules. Buggering boys has been a practise a very diverse section on humanity. So stop sounding like a miserable Northern Irish Presbyterian bigot.

        • Goldie

          Bob – it is not just that the Catholic church has had a number of pedo priests. It is also that the Catholic Church hierarchy has systematically sought to conceal their crimes. An institution that has been complicit in the rape of children deserves nothing but contempt when it tries to lecture the public about morality.

          • http://www.facebook.com/bob.murphy.7712 Bob Murphy

            As has the Scout Movement, Salvation Army, Teacher’s unions and others Goldie. My point is that not only the Catholic Church is involved, so why single them out.

          • Lion_ess

            Because they are one of the most influential and powerful institutions preaching religious, social and moral values for those who cannot think for themselves

          • Ronnie Chow

            Because they refuse to admit what they did was wrong , and because they all knew about it while it was going on , and because the enablers are still in the organization , in public , lecturing the masses on morals . THAT’S WHY , BOB .

          • Rodger T

            Because Bob when ,the Scout Movement, Salvation Army, Teacher’s unions and others , members commit crimes against children they find themselves in court being tried for their crimes.Unlike the church they do not blame the victim,shift the perpetrator to other diocese or give them protection from extradition in the Vatican.

          • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

            No, they don’t find themselves in court. Coverups on child abuse are rampant. News out from the US a few months ago, which we’ve heard zippo about here, is that the Scouts covered up boy buggering on the scale that dwarfs the Catholic Church. They have files on thousands of cases. link.

          • Rodger T

            Seriously Lucia,you and your ilk think that an organisation barely 100 years old has been molesting children on a scale worse than your organisation that has had a 1400 year head start?
            And that, that makes it ok for your priests cos` others have been at it too,that is your response?
            I bet you would not leave your children alone with a priest, I have met a few in my time ,most of them very nice normal people but a couple I would not leave alone in a room with my dog let alone my daughters.
            I would also bet you won`t have read the Ryan report into the churchs` excesses in Ireland ,it is nothing new its been going on for centuries.

          • tspoon

            100 million dead rodger. dead not fiddled with. more than all the deaths in all wars ever. in less than 100 years. by organisations unconstrained by religious belief, and who thought they could do better.
            religion is far from perfect, not to mention based on erroneous beliefs. but compared to the alternative….

            based on your logic, i shouldn’t leave anyone i care for, of any age, in the same room as a socialist.

          • Rodger T

            Since when has religious belief constrained anything?
            Maybe we should be thankful for the restraint shown in the Middle east, I for one, am thankful that Lucia and her Catholic Taliban can no longer burn people at the stake for daring to have a differing opinion on whichever sky fairy they choose to worship.
            Until you can differentiate between the lack of a deity, political dogma and religious dogma you can keep your logic,or lack thereof.

          • Lion_ess

            Typical response when your argument has lost it’s legs – blame someone else.

          • tspoon

            um, actually rodger, in the case of female teachers, they get a slap with a wet bus ticket, practically no sanctions at all. so your point doesn’t stand. for some reason we also don’t hold the minister of education personally responsible for offending by teachers, while simultaneously blaming the pope for each offense of any catholic anywhere

          • http://www.facebook.com/bob.murphy.7712 Bob Murphy

            You are talking crap Rodger, they all cover it up when they can.

          • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

            That’s true. It’s the covering up & denial that has exacerbated the sexual abuse stigma of the CC.

      • landly

        A lot of abuse of female children by priests has also occurred.

        • grumpy

          So, not all pedophile priests are poofters – but the vast majority are……..

          • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

            perhaps, but most pedophiles are not “poofters” – 1 in 3 girls are abused in NZ by the time they turn 16 whereas for boys in is between 1 and 6 or 1 and 10. Another words hetero men are the greatest risk to children – judging by the statistics. Oh and according to Corrections data, most sexual abuse is committed by Europeans (see apprehensions for sexual offenses by ethnicty – http://www.corrections.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/285286/Over-representation-of-Maori-in-the-criminal-justice-system.pdf)

          • Callum

            Most abuse is by Europeans, however not as a proportion of population. Maori still lead significantly in that area.

          • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

            In terms of any crime vs ethnicity Maori are overrepresented for their proportion of the population.

            But this has no baring on sexual offenses. Proportionately Maori girls and Non Maori girls report at roughly the same rates (with the underreported estimated to be similar).

            This is why, when it comes to the number of men who end up in prison for sexual molestation, it is the European male that forms the biggest part of the prison’s sexual predator population.

          • grumpy

            Put it in perspective, only 3% of the poulation is homosexual. That means that the poofter pedos are doing a lot more work per pedonthan the hetero ones.

            It’s a myth from the poofter lobby that pedos who molest boys are not homos, otherwise theirvargument is crap.

        • Lion_ess

          Not getting your point here – a pedophile is still a pedaphile

  • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

    Good on them for trying – even if it is laughable! Funny how they are so keen to focus on the issue of marriage equality yet fail to sort the chaos in their own house.

    Generation Y – so potentially a voting age group 18-29 year olds, are no doubt going to have a hard time taking them seriously. Especially given that this generation is probably our most promiscuous yet.

    Oh and they are often left-wing which essentially precludes religious fundamentalists!

  • Gazzaw

    Leave it alone WO. I’m not a Catholic but I do believe absolutely in religious freedom and that freedom extends to the right of the Catholic Bishop of NZ to communicate church policy to his parishioners without exterior harassment. Democracy is all about religious freedom.

    • Geoff

      Democracy and Religion! Two words that history shows don’t match!

      • Gazzaw

        I agree. Doesn’t mean though that we should perpetuate it.

      • tspoon

        how does history even remotely show that? or- tell us of the atheist regimes that were free and democratic, oh enlightened one…

        • Rodger T

          Name a “atheist ” regime.

          • Ronnie Chow

            Stalin’s

          • Rodger T

            Communist dogma and cult of personality , try again .
            Stalins regime was no more an atheist regime ,than Hitlers` National Socialism was a Catholic regime.

          • Ronnie Chow

            I beg to differ…it seems to have passed muster.

        • landly

          The opposite of religious is not atheist. It is possibly non-religious or secular.

          • tspoon

            bad word choice then. so can you show us the non-religious regimes where democracy flourished? and yes rodger, communist regimes, while not necessarily atheist (i’ll concede that only to avoid endless utterly pointless semantic debate(a specialty of atheists)) shared the atheist world view of a state and society without religion.
            in any case no semantic contortion can avoid the fact that democracy and religion, in particular christianity, most certainly do match. arguably more so than any other common system of belief.

    • Rodger T

      Feel free to ignore it Gaz, it`s not compulsory to read comments comments that you don`t agree with.
      You know,freedom of speech and all that?
      If the Cato-holics want to put out press releases in an attempt to influence political issues then maybe they can start paying taxes like the rest of us.

      • Gazzaw

        You mean like trade unions Rodger?

        • Rodger T

          Yep. With you there 100% ,those pricks need to be paying tax also.

          • grumpy

            Get a life. All unions make a loss, havent you read The Owl. Last thing we need is to give the bastards a tax refund.
            Make them operate properly first, or wind them up as insolvent.

  • Ronnie Chow

    I do not understand how Catholics can attend a church service not knowing whether the Priest at the pulpit did or did not know that one of his fellow Clergy was destroying the soul of a little boy . I do know that none of them took any information to the police . It had to be forced out of them , and to date due to their secrecy only a small fraction of the truth has come out . The Catholic Church needs a major whistle-blower , but perhaps there can never be one . Perhaps they are all guilty . Can any Catholic Priest claim that they did not know of any pedophile behavior amongst their fellow Clergy at all over the period of their service ?
    What I am saying is this . They all knew about it , tolerated it , hid it and then denied it .

    The Catholic Priesthood is one giant Pedophile organisation , right to the top . They ALL knew about it . Every single one of them . Now that is scary .

    • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

      Wow, a mind-reader.

      • Ronnie Chow

        Disprove it . Show how they couldn’t know . Show that they didn’t gossip amongst one another . And most importantly , show how the Catholic Church is not inherently psychopathic in it’s behavior . Can you ?

        • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

          Can you prove that you don’t beat your wife?

          • Ronnie Chow

            mmmm , you’re actually defending pedophiles and their enablers .

            The proof that the Catholic Priesthood are all complicit is that they didn’t think that the pedophiles had done anything wrong . Read the initial denials . They couldn’t understand the outrage . The Catholic Priesthood is in as much denial as the Beast Of Blenheim , and look what we think of him .

  • Random66

    Lucia Maria, I appreciate your faith is important to you but I honestly cannot believe you are seeking to protect it by endeavouring to downplay the sort of evil a man enjoys doing to a child. Not only are many members of the clergy guilty of doing things to children that would make Satan blush but the churches guilt is multiplied a thousand times because they knowingly sought to protect the guilty party rather than the innocent. It is my view that if one child is abused it is one too many. You wrote on another post that you believe in absolute truth vs subjective truth, in this we agree (these men absolutely sinned) and I would be thinking that any money now paid in recognition of their evil is nothing compared to the ultimate price they will pay when judgement day comes around. Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else in the entire bible and he said it was better to cut off your hand rather than allow it to cause you to sin, or pluck out your eye rather than allow it to cause you to sin. Following on along these lines I know what part I would be cutting off the nearest paedophile. Sorry for the rave Lucia Maria, but I honestly couldn’t believe you appear to be defending these men under the premise that the victims are lying.

    • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

      I agree with much of what you have said Random, but in Lucia’s defense she does make a good point. There has been cases of false claims which is the biggest insult anyone can make to sex abuse survivors. Further most sexual abuse occurs outside the Catholic Church. And NZ is no exception. Christians & their leaders have a lot to answer for too; historically some of the most predatory abuse cases have happened in State Children’s Homes – often run by

      • Random66

        If people are making false claims then I agree it is lower than low and in doing so they weaken the position of those who have genuinely been abused which is terrible. I realise this abuse is pretty universal but I always feel additional outrage and disappointment when it is done by those who profess to follow a higher standard.

        • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

          I meant to say run by Protestant Churches but my phone froze!

          I completely agree – that is why I take a hard line with Christians if I feel they are passing judgments on others. Btw, I am not sure if you saw it, but I backed you up against the Flannagan’s blog re their main picture. If you are going to preach a certain standards to others then I definitely think you have to make sure that other’s perspective of you measures up.

          But church leaders – like anyone in leadership really, you expect them to be beyond disrepute and unfortunately sometimes they are anything but.

          I think the Catholic Church as the stigma for child abuse but statistically (in NZ) they dont stand out. Which is where I gleaned Lucia was coming from.

          And the other side of the coin is that sin is sin, so if humans are involved then who are they to send out letters like the above (where you believe the practice of same gender sex is a sin)?

          • Random66

            Yes I did see you backed me up the other day, thanks for that :) This whole thing becomes more confusing that I’m sure it was supposed to be. As a christian I have to believe that the ultimate truth and teaching comes from the bible and where possible I should try and live by it (as does the church I would hope). Clearly I don’t always get it right and infact I think it is pretty much impossible which is why we hold on to grace with both hands on bended knees. My personal views on many things are very subjective and probably can’t be trusted because by nature I am a sinner. It would seem many of us christians these days, including the church as a whole, are shocking witnesses and have lost the respect of many. However I believe this letter is just seeking to try and uphold the truth as it is understood. While my words are perhaps worthless I believe with my dying breath that God’s word is eternal and is worthy of your trust. The only real question is what does He say…

          • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

            I completely understand where you are coming from – naturally (for me) I of course disagree with the Bishop’s letter.

            Having a difference is perfectly fine, but it is when ones views project directly onto the personal lives of others that I get riled up.

            End of the day I think that as long as we each do the best we can in our own lives and do our best to accept others warts and all, strengths and weaknesses then that will be enough. And perhaps be mindful that God does not judge us based on what others may or may not do, He holds us to account for what we do or don’t do.
            Ultimately no matter how much we know, feel or believe, God always remains the big unknown.

            However I think the one thing we do know for certain is that Jesus says love above all else should always win! :-)

      • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

        Thanks!

    • http://nzconservative.blogspot.com Lucia Maria

      Hi Random,

      Totally agree that “if one child is abused it is one too many”, and don’t want to downplay the evil that the men who actually abused children (but mostly boys) have done. But, it’s gone way past just condemning the guilty on these threads. It is assumed by Whale on his repeated attacks that molestation of children is actively encouraged and rewarded by the Church, never mind that there is now a very real danger of innocent men being falsely accused by all the hysteria being whipped up.

      I’m just at the stage of being seriously pissed off by all of this.

  • Gulag1917

    Some big generalisations here.

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