Must read

What's hot

Operation 8 laugh in
tame-iti
41

Pagani on dole bludgers and roofing

by Whaleoil on August 16, 2012

It seems that Shearer shouldn’t have only told his MPs to STFU but should have got the message through to his own cheerleaders as well.  Josie Pagani has done one of her classic very long opinion pieces on her facebook.  First Josie laments about the sexism on The Stranded, then she defends Shearer’s right wing sensibilities and then ends with advocating there are ways to make welfare work other than handing over money.  Yep, the traditional Labour base will love that.

Josie really should get a blog.  She doesn’t so I will give her a “guest post” here.

 

Tagged: • • •

Related posts

  • Shaun

    Next Labour Leader?…

  • Euan.Rt

    Great post Josie; and this differs from the National Party position just how exactly?

    • 2ndAmendment

      Sounds like Josie would actually throw some bludgers of the dole and into the gutter now and again.

  • blazer

    right wing propaganda IS extremely effective in diverting middle class angst toward benefit abuse and away from the reality of inequality ,which is fundamental to Capitalism/materialism/consumerism.

    • http://twitter.com/Inventory2 Inventory2

      Can you say that again in English please Blazer?

      • blazer

        sure ,I guess it isn’t very clear…bashing beneficiaries is a perennial target to divert attention away from societies real problems.

        • Alloytoo

          People who work hard and get ahead are only a problem in the eyes of bludgers.

          • Neil

            What about those of us who work hard all their adult life and don’t get ahead!!!

          • Alloytoo

            You’re also a problem in the eyes of the bludgers.

        • http://twitter.com/Inventory2 Inventory2

          That’s much easier to understand; thanks!

        • Mr Sackunkrak

          I would have thought beneficiaries ripping the system off are a real problem.

        • Unsolicitedious

          No. Beneficiaries are by and large society’s ONLY real problems.

          Lets look at the facts:

          In 2006;
          * Maori are 5 times more likely to get pregnant than Europeans/Non Maori
          * 65.8 girls per 1000 aged 15-19 gave birth in the most economically deprived areas, classified as decile 1.
          * 6.92 per 1000 gave birth in the most affluent areas, or decile 10.* for every 10% increase in single parent families there is a 17% increase in youth crime*Māori make up just 14% of the national population, yet make up 42% of all Police apprehensions, and 50% of the prison population*Most of these Maori are on a benefit* More than 60% of child abuse notifications are for children whose parents are on income-tested benefits.

          There is loads of research stating this stuff. For example see http://www.corrections.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/285286/Over-representation-of-Maori-in-the-criminal-justice-system.pdf and NZ Social Policy Journal 1996

          • Neil

            That doesn’t equate to receiving benefits being the problem – sorry it just means we shouldn’t be dolling out money without checks and balances.

          • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

            Yes not all beneficiaries are or will be criminals but that doesnt meant to say the current system is working: quite simply NZ cannot afford its bulging welfare state and it seems grossly unfair that a high tax paying family has to fundraise to get medical care for the child via Starship while 50% of families continue to get handouts.

            It should be those who have made poor choices that are left to fundraise, not the people faced with circumstances genuinely beyond their control.

            We need more than checks & balances – we need a complete overall.

            I bet if every child in receipt of welfare (including WFF) was made a Ward of the State with funds being administered through their school – rather than spent at the discretion of their parent/s, many people would think twice about putting their hand out.

            There is no evidence that welfare does anything but enable people to continue to make bad choices. If there was no safety net but for real emergencies I bet most people on the benefit would think twice about that 2nd child, sky subscription, soccer fees, bigger house, etc etc

    • meh

      So blazer, you feel that someone working hard / up-skilling themselves (earning more) so that they can go out and buy the newest LED TV or car (i.e. consumerism/materialism) is wrong because other people in society whose circumstances are different cannot afford the same things?

  • http://twitter.com/Inventory2 Inventory2

    Good stuff from Josie Pagani, which illustrates the double standards in force at The Standard. Lefties are allowed to spurt a torrent of abuse without even a tut from the moderators, whilst anyone who disagrees with them is summarily banned. Big ups to Ms Pagani for exposing the nastiness and hypocrisy.

    • 2ndAmendment

      Rubbish. Socialist piffle.

    • Neil

      Kinda happy that I’ve not tried to looking at the Standard…. not having open debate is not very democratic….more power to Cam’s blogs

  • rouppe

    Two sides of the same coin. There are rich bastards that fiddle the tax system. However the Left’s answer to that is to raise the income tax rates, which captures most people on this blog who pay all the right amount of tax. The solution here is not to raise taxes, but to work on those that hide their earnings in trading trusts and companies, who avoid their Consume Guarantees Act obligations by winding up companies every 5-7 years, and jail those that lie on prospectus documents.

    Similarly, there are beneficiaries that scam the system. However the answer again is not to cut the benefit from everybody, but to work on those who paint their roof while on a sickness benefit, or continue to have more children while already on a benefit.

    At either end, all it takes is a few examples to be made, and a lot of those playing the system will change their mind, reducing the list of those needing some compliance attention

    • Callum

      And the interesting bit is all the loopholes (many of which were created by Labour) are being closed by National, tightening up on rental properties, working for families, outdated tax deductions etc. Putting accountants out of a job.

    • 2ndAmendment

      Two sides of the same coin

      No way in hell – and to even say so is communism.

      There is all the difference in the world between a bludger rorting my tax dollars — whether they are “legally” entitled to it or not is really beyond the point, they sure as hell aren’t morally entitled to it! — and a high-value, high-income, high-worth individual doing nothing but keeping their own property

      Like I said: failing to see this difference is the textbook definition of communist. As Marx says, considering high-value high-worth winners and makers, the aim is to “strip them of their natural character and subjugates them to the power of the united individuals.” [i.e. the bludgers]

      There is all the difference in the world

    • Unsolicitedious

      Well said rouppe – completely agree. And the current govt has taken measures to restrict the dodgy rich pricks, just the same as it is starting to target welfare scammers (which has also included rich pricks!) and intergenerational beneficiaries who see procreation merely as a way to secure a larger meal ticket.

      I quite like most of what Pagani has said. I’m sure most of us have been faced with the left’s clear lack of logic & blatant (annonymous) hypocrisy whenever we have tried to introduce facts to their BS arguments.

      Of course the fundamental difference between Pagani and people like me is that I dont believe my taxes should go to anyone who buys a house they cant afford or buys one without planning for a rainy day (drop in income/redundancy etc) or who has children they cant afford to provide for on their own merit. I believe such welfare – whether benefits or WFF, enables poor choices rather than teaching them how to make better ones.

      I just dont believe in providing anything beyond emergency welfare for earthquake victims & other such things completely beyond ones control.

      Problem is so many NZ expect the government will be there to bail them out – even rich young people who earn combined incomes of over $100k then plead poverty because 2 years later when they are pregnant with their first child they claim it is unaffordable (saw one such couple on Campbell Live a few months back).

      This sense of entitlement that so many people have comes at the expense of families like mine who are apparently rich, dont hide their money in LAQCs & rental properties and pay a shit load in taxes – income tax and GST & ACC levies, yet get nothing but a request to pay more!

      So I just cant see how things are going to stop. I know the likes of Polish would happily do away with our current system completely yet how can we even think about that when no one is brave or smart enough to see the welfare system including WFF for what it is – predominantly one big hand out for the lazy & stupid (‘real’ sickness beneficiaries – so no, not those on the methadone program, and disability beneficiaries excluded).

      • Neil

        Umm so can you remind me what those things are “the current govt has taken measures to restrict the dodgy rich pricks” – they’ve hardly touched the thin veneer on the top so far…… I would have thought more tax money would be forthcoming to the government from that lost overseas from unpaid tax of the dodgy rich pricks than the cost of benefits paid to those that are dodgy benefit fraudsters…..

        • http://unsolicitedious.wordpress.com/ Unsolicitedious

          Removing the top rate of tax and lowering the tax rates across the board, changing the rules of LAQCs and reducing ability for the wealthy to scale down their income and claim WFF.

          Further, according to a recent article on Stuff, IRD has been “wealthiest will have seen their effective tax rates drop on paper at least, because the IRD has been strenuously pursuing them to extract more tax, and the IRD expects to bring in an extra half a billion dollars in revenue from the high net wealth individuals in the next 10 years through its crackdown.”

        • Dave

          Neil. Lets get a bit real here. Please think about this one before replying. Raise Tax for the wealthy or enforce tax to higher income brackets and you will get what has just happened in Australia, with the 4th largest corporation in Victoria (Tattersals) moving interstate to Queensland for lower taxes etc, taking 40 senior execs with them at the same time. Overtax the wealthy, they clam up or move on, taking their wealth with them.

          Then think about this Neil. Lower the welfare abuse and fraud, get them working, and earning, then the WELFARE DEPENDENCY decreases, freeing up taxes to be spent elsewhere, or REDUCED.

          Me, i would prefer to have taxation looked at completely differently. A bit like rates. Tax every person the same basic rate, a FIXED and FLAT fee. Say 10K per person per annum capable of full time work. Then a small % for every dollar earnt. The country costs the same to run per person, and the cost of this is not matched to ones income, so people earning a fortune, are unfairly OVERTAXED, carrying others, who underachieve and under earn, and under-contribute to the country. Me, I have moved on, and out of NZ taking my funds to invest elsewhere. Too many bludgers in Aoteroa holding their hands out sucking the public purse dry.

          • Neil

            You must have missed several of my previous posts about this issue – your last paragraph is almost identical to what I’ve been advocating for years.

      • 2ndAmendment

        rich young people who earn combined incomes of over $100k

        combined income of over 100K isn’t rich.
        It’s barely middle class.

    • Neil

      Nice one rouppe – And I see there’s already one comment below that has put the Commie label on you for saying it – that’s just so many colours of dumb.

  • 2ndAmendment

    Ruth Richardson and Jenny Shipley cutting the benefits out of spite

    Sounds pretty damn good to me! Dole, Sicko-dole, Codger-dole they’re all welfare, they’re all bludgers. cut the lot.

    After Ruth’s cuts, Labour (and National before & afterwards) have massively pushed up benefit levels so they are now the most generous in the world (outside Scandinavia). Ruth may have started the job but she sure as hell wasn’t allowed to finish it. Just goes to show that half-measures are basically no-measures. The only real reform: stop all benefits permanently

    It can be done. With National on 45% and the Conservatives on 4% it will be done

    • Gazzaw

      2nd Amendment. Just out of interest you are not Angry Tory using another handle perchance? He disappeared, you appeared. Same messages, same language.

    • Neil

      My thought exactly Gazzaw…… So back at 2ndAmendment – you’re suggesting we can the Universal Superannuation Scheme??

      • 2ndAmendment

        Along with everything else.

        I’m sure as f**k not going to get any “universal super” or anything else by the time I croak – so why should I have to pay for codgers now who didn’t bother to save?

  • Liberty

    “I don’t Like the way the standard deals out lifetime bans”

    It is a legacies from
    the days the Marxist sent dissidents off to the salt mines.

  • Get a grip

    I would vote for her, even tho I dont vote Labour.
    A politician not constrained by the “party” line, refreshing.Do they have another John A Lee” in their midst.

    • Neil

      Agree with you – western world’s version of democracy – isn’t …… same old shit either side – what choice do we actually get.

  • cows4me

    So Josie wishes to do reform “our way”, oh please. Go away you silly woman. Your side had a decade to do things your way and what did we get? Now you are on the back foot and speak of reform, your words along with your ideas are hollow.

  • Busman

    Good on you whale for giving Josie the space , well done , i every now and again pop over to the standard to have a look , not very inviting is it ! i just cannot believe the crap that is spouted from these people and the hatred , it is day against night when compared to this blog , if i were a labour supporter it would disgust me ,the drival ! and damage this site must be doing to the labour party would have to be immense .
    This is what labour fail to grasp i feel , the world has moved on from this type of behaviour.
    The problem labour voters have is how to rid their party of this type of nasty , hatred displays.

    • Gazzaw

      You’re right about the hatred and the old style dogma Busman. Was it Goff last year who went on and on about how important perception was? Well it appears that labour hasnt learnt its own lesson. Modern NZ has moved on, labour hasn’t.

  • blazer

    Life is not black and white,and perceptions are hardly right or wrong.The American dream is an illusion,the reality is that you cannot have rich people without a whole lot of poor people.

    • 2ndAmendment

      Just because there are always going to be losers, bludgers, takers, whiners, grievers — doesn’t mean we shouldn’t celibate winners,

      • blazer

        I would hope your so called ‘winners’ get their fair share of sex!

%d bloggers like this: