They should write to the Pope demanding that he stop priests from buggering little boys

Typical…the Catholic Church is telling people to write to MPs to stop marriage equality:

The leader of the Roman Catholic church in England and Wales has urged parishioners to write to their MPs “as soon as possible” urging them to block the Government’s same-sex marriage plans.

The Most Rev Vincent Nichols, the Archbishop of Westminster, said they should write “clearly, calmly and forcefully” outlining their concerns.

Among his fears is that children will no longer be taught about what he called “the true nature of marriage” in schools, if legislation is passed allowing marriage between homosexuals.

With the bill on same-sex marriage due to be tabled in mid-January, the clock is now ticking.

At least 130 Conservative MPs could vote against the Government on the issue, but many more would be needed to stop it becoming law.

In a pastoral letter to mark the Feast of the Holy Family, Archbishop Nichols called on Catholics to act now to change politicians’ minds.

It is the first time he has written directly asking parishioners to lobby MPs, and marks a new phase in the church’s campaign against the potential law change.

About five million people in England and Wales are Catholic, of which a million regularly attend church.

Imagine 5 million letters to the Pope telling him to stop covering up child abuse and to redress the sins of the priesthood…won’t be holding my breath.

  • nasska

    Catholicism: The belief that homosexual acts are disgusting and immoral once the child has turned 16.

  • Pete George

    This does question Catholic priorities. There’s a lot more useful and important things they could campaign on than trying to stop something that in reality is of no consequence to anyone other thasn those sharing the chance to get married.

    And it’s ironic that they refer to “the true nature of marriage” – don’t priests and nuns have some sort of odd religious marriage arrangement?

  • BR

    “Marriage equality”.

    That sounds like typical PC left-speak.

    Bill.

    • http://truebluenz.com/ Redbaiter

      Well just look at who uses the phrase. Same old propaganda driven Progressives.

      • http://voakl.net/ Ben Ross

        You mean the same old progressives who allowed or did the following:

        1) Brought us out of the Dark Ages

        2) Questioning the Pope and rediscovering science and philosophy again – thus bringing us out of the Dark Ages

        3) Emancipation and eventual universal suffrage (might as well throw democracy in there)

        4) Abolishment of slavery

        5) Introduction and foundation of social laws including what we know to day as health and safety and welfare (now I am not mentioning the sick state those laws have become in the 21st Century, just mentioning progressives back in the industrial revolution did see the ‘need’ for those progressive reforms on Classic Capitalism back then)

        This next round I am not condoning nor condemning – just pointing it out

        6) The Feminist movements of the 60′s and 70′s (watching Mad Men while fictional does show the march of liberalisation in that period)

        7) Liberalisation or deregulation of our commerce system (hence why we have 7 day a week retail and allowed to purchase a good tipple for social or celebratory reasons (that includes at bars, pubs and restaurants as well as the home)

        But, BUT, our foundational Western Laws are still tied back to the 10 Commandments so “tradition” is still there.

        So yes I think the progressives as you would say have done rather well, or would you rather have us confined to “yes priest, yes minister 3-Hail Mary full minister” of the past who dear not question their papal authority nor delve into scientific or philosophical curiousness. Well if that is the case I can point you over where four “progressive” Christians told a fundy like yourself baiter “moving FORWARD” in the 21st Century

      • http://voakl.net/ Ben Ross

        By the way Baiter, if Marriage Equality is so vile to you and your ilk and it according to you sullies “Marriage” (although old Bob did that himself with little help) if a gay gets married (when the Bill goes through Royal Accent) are you going to do the following (now I am taking a big assumption here but the case is moot point):
        1) Divorce so that you are no longer “married” thus in the same “institution” as a gay married couple
        2) Or go and get (as Bob put it) a separate “Man-Women” marriage just so you can be “different” to those who are gay (or even heterosexuals who care less on the matter) and married?

        Heck if you went down the second path…

        • http://truebluenz.com/ Redbaiter

          Don’t try and engage me in debate.

          I’m willing to discuss things with commenters who have a real education and a true understanding of Conservatism’s role in history, but I’m not interested in exchanging views with ranters who so clearly demonstrate they are half educated ignorant of history imbeciles suffering from a bad case of NPD.

          Far better things to do with my time.

          • Dave

            I thought you were having a “Whale sponsored Holiday Red”

          • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz Whaleoil

            he can never stay away…no self control…bet he can’t stay away for a week

        • Rodger T

          Ol` master Baiter likes things progress gives him,he just does not like the questions it asks.

          Don’t try and engage me in debate.

          The fuckwit only wants to rant,because it knows it can`t comprehend rational argument.

  • Andrei

    Well how many children living in dire circumstances in New Zealand were murdered last year?

    How many hospitalized?

    Instead in recreating a venerable cultural institution to pander to well off, middle class homosexuals and lesbians why doesn’t the government do something significant to address this…won’t be holding my breath.

    • Andrei

      And there probaby were more kids murdered or hospitalized by their whanaui in New Zealand last year than have ever been abused by Priests in this country since 1840

      • kiwidon

        Ouch! Me thinks you may be right!

      • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/ Petal

        Which begs the question: Why is New Zealand different in this statistic?

        Is it because NZ Catholic clergy somehow didn’t fall into the same behaviour pattern so wide-spread overseas?

        How likely is it that NZ is the polar opposite to these statistics overseas?

        And if so, why?

      • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz Whaleoil

        Ill bet you are wrong…since 1840…that’s a whole lot of boy buggering by priests you are covering up there

      • Kimbo

        So even if that were true, Andrei, that makes it comparatively ok, does it, even though Priests are meant to be accountable to higher standards?!

        You just don’t get it.

        • Andrei

          Oh I get it all right, never you fear.

          It is hard to imagine a more stupid, socially destructive idea, in the long term, than homosexual marriage.

          The Church being about the only voice of sanity left in this debate has to be attacked, other voices having been intimidated in to silent compliance.

          This is the left wing way and whenever have any left wing idiocies led to anything other than disaster?

          • Kimbo

            No, you don’t get it. You are still playing the shell game.

            Actually, Andrei, part of me may just agree with you.

            BUT, until such time as Rome, and also the Protestant and Pentecostal churches who speak against gay marriage (and there are some, so it is not correct to say this is about the Roman Catholic Church being the ONLY voice) clean up their act with an even greater zeal than what they direct at the supposed immorality outside their ranks, they deserve contempt and derision.

            Which they get.

            “For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” (I Peter 4:17).

            You are continually harping on about the second half of the verse. However, until such time as you acknowledge that there is a problem with the clergy (Protestant too!), which Churches, for the sake of their “image” have historically covered over, and continue to do so, you are aiding and abetting the sin that will incur God’s judgement BEFORE he gets around to dealing with the pagans.

            And the pagans get it – which is why they hold your defence of Rome in contempt.

          • Andrei

            Didn’t mention “Rome” nor use the Bible to make my case.

            I said “the Church” of which the Latin (Roman Catholic) Church is a big part of course but not the entireity

            And I’m not aiding and abetting sin, here are two Bible verses for you to consider – they don’t bode well for those who abuse children, especially Priests, I’d posit.

            1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

            2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

            I have zero time for those who abuse kids but I will never tar all Priests with that brush because of a few rotten apples

          • Kimbo

            Andrei, I also don’t think it is just to tar all priests with the brush of child abuse because of a few rotten apples.

            I also agree with you that much of the criticism of the clery is unjust. Yes, Churches, despite paedophilia been grossly antithetical to their stated intent have, for a number of reasons (supposedly safe places for the vulnerable and needy, a place of holiness for those who are seeking the resources to have their deviency tarnsformed) been a ‘target-rich environments’ for paedophiles, both lay and clergy.

            HOWEVER…

            If you don’t address it with righteous and constant zeal as and when it comes to your attention (and historically, that is the very real and in many cases just accusation against churches),

            then whether most of the criticism is unjust (which it is)

            …or used as a smokescreen to avoid listening to the Church’s message (which, as you rightly argue it most certainly is!)

            …then, “As it is written, “God’s name is blasphemed among the nations because of you” (Romans 2: 24).

            The phone is rightly off the hook until the matter of historic institutional cover-up is addressed with the same righteous and indignant fury with which you campaign against gay marriage.

            Which is why, in this case, your attempts to defend the institutional Church aid and abet the sin of covering-up.

          • Kimbo

            “Didn’t mention “Rome…”

            …and that, Andrei, is a good example of the sophistry and pedantic nit-picking and bait-switching which characterise your posts.

            You may not have mentioned “Rome”, but the thread on which you are posting, “They should write to the Pope demanding that he stop priests from buggering little boys” sets the framework for what church and priesthood are being addressed in the first instance.

            Hence, when you post, “The Church being about the only voice of sanity left”, it is reasonable to assume you were referring to Rome. That you can’t follow the thread of discussion and/or express yourself in a logically coherent manner is your failing, not mine. I realise your off-sider, Lucia Maria, who is no doubt watching in, would probably appeal to her female gender as an excuse for a failure to think and express oneself logically. Unless you are now directly contradicting your stance, and think inter-changing of gender roles and attributes is acceptable, you’ll no doubt agree it would be foolish of me to let you off the hook on that point.

            Also, “nor use the Bible to make my case”.

            Not specifically, no. Indeed you’ve very cleverly packaged your initial volley, “It is hard to imagine a more stupid, socially destructive idea, in the long term, than homosexual marriage” in the supposed garb of appeal to reason and empirical evidence.

            However, as both the results of reason and empirical evidence are contentious, and not as self-evident to all as they are to you, care to tell us what, pray tell, is the starting point of your epistemological and moral-values system that lead you to that conclusion?

            The Bible and the teachings of the Church, by any chance?

          • Andrei

            T’is you who are being illogical.

            When an Anglican minister speaks for Gay marriage, as more than a few have, should they hold their tongue because Anglican ministers have abused children?

            Is CYFS to be silent on issues involving the welfare of children because CYFS workers have been found guilty of abusing children?

            Is the Education departemtn no longer eligible to pontificate on issues surrounding education because teachers have been found guilty of molesting children?

            Obviously the only thing anybody can do is apologize apoligize apologize for sins not commited by them personally and talk about nothing else

            What a load of horse radish!

            You know something else – kids who are abused are vunerable kids and that almost universally means that they do not come from a stable family backgrounds and MARRIAGE as we know it is all about providing stable families for as many of young as we can possibly accomplish.

          • Kimbo

            “Obviously the only thing anybody can do is apologize apoligize apologize for sins not commited by them personally and talk about nothing else”.

            You are still bait-switching.

            No, they shouldn’t just apologise. They should continue to uncover and expose with utmost zeal.

            And the reason is, when paedophilia is committed by those in church ministry, especially by the clergy, who enjoy special institutional status and authority, then it is NOT a simple matter of “not committed by them personally”. Clerical ministry is, of its very nature, a representative and corporate role. When it suits, clergy are not just mere individuals “acting on there own recognisance”. Which means you can’t have it both ways.

            That is why the church must always hold herself, and especially her clergy to account to far more exacting and searing standards of conduct, investigation, discipline, and redress than Caesar can ever legislate. Which is why making a comparison to CYFS is an ultimately false analogy. When it suits hert, the Church says, ‘we have a unique moral voice, so we must be listened to on matters (such as gay marriage)’.

            But nhen it doesn’t suit, “Ah, why are you being unfair when other institutions can and do the same failings?’ Like I said, you just don’t get the moral bancruoptcy of that utterly disreputable comparison!

            There is and always will be a corporate element to personal sins by the clergy, which is most certainly the case when an institutional cover-up occurs. Which is why the institution is rightly held in scorn and contempt, until such time as it is seen by outsiders (and NOT just her apologists) to have cleaned up her act.

            The Church can’t ‘command’ the respect of others anymore. Instead, it has to earn it back again. Which is why it would do better to pour its efforts into the matter of clerical paedophilia, in comparison to gay marriage.

          • Andrei

            You are still bait-switching.

            No my friend the bait and switch is bringing up child abuse when the Church says something you don’t like and you don’t want to debate.

            In fact in the USA where the research has been done Kids bought up in Catholic institutions are less likely to have been abused than those in secular ones but don’t let inconvenient facts get in the way of your narrative.

            In any case nothing new in this sort of nonsense – the Soviet Union got it down to a fine art – the Soviet Union is gone but the left in the West has inheritied its ways and techniques.

          • Kimbo

            “Kids bought up in Catholic institutions are less likely to have been abused than those in secular ones”.

            I’ve no doubt that may very well be the case, but the fact that ANY kid is abused in a Catholic institution, given the very nature of what the Catholic Church claims about herself, and in the light of the egregious scandals and cover-ups that have come to light in the past few decades, is UTTERLY unacceptable – and why people have a deaf air to her “moral voice” in many cases.

            I also note you earlier slipped in the phrase, “intimidated in to silent compliance”, implying criticism of the Church over paedophilia is for that purpose. Get a grip! It isn’t intimidation, no one is being deported to the Gulags, and the KGB is not coming to get you.

            Instead, you are jumping up and down like a hysterical drama queen, interjecting yourself onto this blog of your own free will, in a public forum for the free expression of ideas, because the nasty Whale Oil continually hurts your feelings by posting criticism of the institutional (Catholic) Church. Tough! Is your freedom to post curtailed? Is anyone beating you up in the streets? Stripping you of your worldly goods, or your right to participate in the democratic process? Thought not

            There are Christians in the world who suffer genuine persecution for their faith, and moral beliefs. You aren’t one of them. The fact you misuse the concept of persecution and intimidation as a propaganda prop to further your own ideological goals is a reprehensible insult to those who do genuinely suffer.

          • Rebecca

            Are you saying that since clerical pedophilia is almost entirely a gay rape issue, maybe allowing gay marriage will help the Catholic church by reducing the number of abusers seeking a role in the church?

          • Kimbo

            Nope, not that I necessarily accept the “have you stopped beating your wife” premise of your statement, “since (says who?!) clerical pedophilia is almost entirely a GAY (my emphasis) rape issue…”?

            I suspect paedophilia is not primarily about being gay or straight or sexuality, but, as with most rape, is is about power. And clergy are in a position of TREMENDOUS power. So allowing gay marriage would be irrelevant to addressing the issue.

            Now that we’ve disarmed that fish hook, I’ll pay you the courtesy of a straight answer to a straight question: which is more than I get from those I suspect you are running tag team for, Andrei, and Lucia Maria.

            Rome, like any other Church, or organisation for that matter, is free to determine the moral parameters of its membership, and especially its clergy/leadership. If it views gay or women priests as unacceptable (which it does), then it has the right to implement that policy unhindered. Just like Whale Oil has the right to make an accusation of the hypocrisy of making moral pronouncements against gay marriage when you have had clerical paedophilia occur within your midst.

            There is no sinister plot theory to silence Rome. This isn’t about Rome’s views on gay marriage. I may even agree with them (even though as a faithful Protestant there is MUCH I detest about Rome and some of her pronouncements and spirituality). Instead it is about her credibility to speak out on moral issues. Until she begins to truly address the institutional cover-up over clerical paedophilia, then moral conservatives bleating it is all just a distraction and a gay-plot are entrenching the problem.

            Either way, in accordance with our creation in the image of God, we have all been given the capacity to make up our own minds within the civil sphere – where, as a good Protestant I can assure you, Rome has no special authority or power.

    • Rodger T

      What part of the culture that you belong to that sees child molestation as acceptable ,do you think is venerable?

    • http://voakl.net/ Ben Ross

      Interesting there Andrei, I think we are familiar with the dire circumstances our Children do face each year – we get whacked with the statistics just about every single waking day of the year.

      However if the “church” were to divert just 10% of their resources and effort from the “campaign” against marriage equality to helping Children out of those dire circumstances (you know, money where mouth is – just like the honoured Sir Owen Glenn is in the fight against our appalling child abuse statistics) you might just see that hospitalisation rate come down and the lives of our children and families improve just that little bit more.

      But no, you Andrei and “your” Church (because it is most certainly not mine) focus on issues that matter most – bit like Trevor Mallard and Andrew Little most days.

      It always said charity began at home – so how about spreading some of that charity – or has your venerable institution spent all its resources lavishly on this frivolous campaign and has nothing left to really focus on things that matter to New Zealand – a better place for our Children…

      • Andrei

        But no, you Andrei and “your” Church (because it is most certainly not mine) focus on issues that matter most

        Focussing on issues that matter – watch open your mind

        • Dave

          Andrei Four corners ran a brilliant series on Church Kiddy Fiddling here in Aussie, they have been running it every few years for the last 20 years, and its amazing and appalling. The figure, some 15% of priests (from memory) are involved in Kiddy Fiddling here, and they believe the figures are the same the word over.

          Suggest you google ABC Four Corners Unholy Silence and see for yourself how the church(s) have failed to follow up on sexual child abuse. It might not show in NZ. Warning, it can be quite disturbing.

  • Andrei

    Well that didn’t take long the year isn’t even a day old

    • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz Whaleoil

      You can’t blame gay marriage..it isn’t even here yet…and I’ll just bet the child was in a hetero sexual household…possibly but unlikely even in a marriage household…so while your church and other churchs spend money and time and effort opposing gay marriage the feral inbreds who could do with some of gods love are killing their kids while you remain distracted

    • Rodger T

      Wow, imagine that, a religious zealot using a the cot death of an infant to try to justify his churches abuse of children.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bob.murphy.7712 Bob Murphy

    I was hoping that one of your New Year’s resolution would be to lay off inflamatory raves about the Catholic Church, Whale.

    • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz Whaleoil

      When the catholic church stops their inflammatory raves against people wanting to be married then i may, just may stop…and when they address their own problems before trying to continue to control the lives of others then i may just stop…until then they are a free fire target for mocking.

    • Rodger T

      Can`t your feeble god stick up for himself Bob?

    • Morrissey

      Perhaps the Pope might like to lay off the inflammatory raves against homosexuals and other easy targets for the bigots in his Church…
      http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1897119,00.html

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