Police push back against silly Bain claims

The Police have issued a press release that slams 3rd Degree for refusing to speak to them and also Bain’s lawyer.

They put a fair bit of context into the “new evidence” that isn’t.

It is fair to say that this case is nothing short of a media stitch up, orchestrated like the last one to coincide with Judith Collins being out of the country.

The latest story advanced through the media by representatives of David Bain is an interesting theory but is not new evidence says Assistant Commissioner Malcolm Burgess.

“It is an interesting idea when taken in isolation, but is no more than a theory when taken out of context of all the other evidence which has been presented to several courts.

“Marks on a photograph can always be open to several interpretations by experts, and the significance or relevance of these marks have not been tested in court.

“Examination of the original photograph does not give any definitive indication of what the marks could be. There are other possibilities, including that they are minor cuts.  

“We know for example that Robin Bain was doing work to the roof and spouting of his Every Street home in the days leading up to the killings – any Kiwi handyman knows the sort of damage this can do to the hands.  Post mortem examination of Robin Bain’s hands shows a number of minor abrasions and marks you would expect to find with someone familiar with manual work.

“Indeed, police have today conducted a preliminary examination of fingerprints taken from Robin Bain after his death. These prints show an absence of fingerprint markings in the same place on his right thumb as the dark marks appearing in the photograph.  Our fingerprint experts advise that this is consistent with someone sustaining cuts or damage to the fingers prior to prints being taken, which would then affect the print image.

Had these been powder marks or smudges as claimed, we would expect to see a complete fingerprint image.

“I also reiterate the evidence put forward in court that the only identifiable fingerprints found on the firearm belonged to David and Stephen Bain.

“Police will continue to look at this issue to gain a better understanding of what this photograph may show.

“However, I am mindful that this theory has been put forward through a programme whose makers chose not to seek comment from police prior to broadcast, and who also refused to provide details about their story when approached by police on Tuesday.

“Had they done so then we would have pointed out that fingerprints had been presented in evidence and have always been available through the court to help them decide if their story stacked up.”

  • WayneO

    If it’s such strong evidence why did it go to reality television and not get tested in the courts. I call bullshit.

    • Colin Price

      Bullshit is correct. Sadly lies carry as much weight in the courts as the truth. If that wasnt the case, there would be no court of appeal, no suppreme court and no privy council!

  • Chris

    Even if the marks do show Robyn killed his family doesn’t rule out David coming home and killing Robyn.

    • Honcho

      It shows the possibility of Robin having handled a magazine, still never left a mark on the rifle, the defence case claimed he used gloves which have never been accounted for. David had to have killed Laniet, Stephen and Robin, balance of probabilities still hasn’t changed. The guy is murdering scum who flipped and killed his whole family, he should still be rotting in jail.

    • Vixx

      i keep going back to that scenario..but get stuck at Robin having a full bladder..but then if he got up with murder on his mind going to the loo was the last thing. but then i think of the fight or flight response to danger the first thing you do is empty your body sooo i get all confused lol

  • Pete George

    The police are contradictory – they say that it could be damage to RBs thumb from working on the roof the night before, but then show a mark-less thumbprint. If they were cut marks surely they would show in the thumbprint?

    • Pete George

      It’s been clarified on Campbell Live. The fingerprints show parallel marks, I hadn’t noticed them.

      So it was a curiously coincidental prior injury or injuries, ir they are indentations from the magazine that have remained due to Bain dying. I have no idea about the feasibility of the latter, that would need an expert opinion.

    • LesleyNZ

      Can you read a scan? You have to be trained what to look for.

      • Pete George

        The nice policeman on the telly explained it.

  • Agent BallSack

    Theyre already calling for a bullshit full pardon. Unbelievable!

  • Colin Price

    Sounds like arse-covering by Mr Plod… a cop delivered the gun for testing for the TV item. Its not like they didnt know and therefore didnt have the opportunity to take part.

    • http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/ Keeping Stock

      That’s nonsense Colin. Read the Police presser, and you will see that 3rd Degree told them to bugger off when they asked to be able to comment. It was a set-up by 3rd Degree.

      • Colin Price

        Its not nonsense. If the cops wanted a say-so, they had every chance. Every event a cop attends (even the most minor) has to have an event number logged in the police system. All cops have to resolve all events logged. Even if the event is delivering a pea-shooter to a firing range! They knew, and had every oportunity to comment, assist and even apply to the courts if new evidence comes up. To say they couldnt/wouldnt comment is arse-covering!
        The biggest issue with the cops is that, while they are only human, they generally refuse point-blank to admit when they are wrong! Take any case where someone charged gets aquitted, and the cops will swear that they, rather than the system got it right.

    • LesleyNZ

      Fingerprints don’t lie.

      • Chris

        Think you’ve missed the point.

        • LesleyNZ

          What point?

          • Chris

            Thought so.

          • LesleyNZ

            Oh yeah.

  • Harvey Wilson

    All due respect to the Police but they have proven over and over again that their approach to forensic science and evidence protection is bollocks. They need to up their game.

    • mike

      They may of fucked up some of the forensics, but the weight of evidence against David is damning.

      • unsol

        It’s not evidence. It is circumstantial evidence that they argued was compelling which the courts disagreed with.

        • Edwin Wigmore

          Not the first time. What do you have to believe to think David is innocent? here’s a brief list:

          1. It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies

          2. Again a lucky guess hen DB told police officer they are all dead

          3. The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.

          4. The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence

          5. The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses

          6. The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living

          7. David’s finger prints on gun are from a previous time

          8. David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience

          9. Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes

          10. Robin managed to execute his family on a full bladder

          11. The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there

          12. Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails

          13. David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies

          14. The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit

          15. Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide

          16. That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally
          would have cleared David.

          17. Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message

          18. Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder

          19. Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails

          20. Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?

          21. That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey
          before killing himself?

          22. That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.

          23. That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch

          24. That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.

          25. That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David

          26. That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.

          27. That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.

          28. That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live

          29. That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death

          30. That Laniet allegation of incest with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.

          31. That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene.

          32. That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.

          33. That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms.

          34. That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teenage son who put up a furious fight

          35. That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself

        • mike
    • unsol

      Not to mention making their desperation to close a case less obvious; discounting the ketch in the Scott Watson case that was seen by the water taxi – a boatie who would easily identify the difference between a ketch & a sloop – was not smart.

      • Honcho

        David Bain isn’t Scott Watson, nor do the cases have anything to do with each other.

        • unsol

          Except that in both Police didn’t act honourable….with Watson they were lucky as without a doubt got the right man. No grey area.

          • Colin Price

            There is a gray area…. A ketch normally moored in the Weiti River at Whangaparaoa matched the description of the ketch seen by the water taxi operator, AND was at the scene in the sounds at the time! The owner was a suspect for a while, yet the police mindset was ready to discount him as he was from out of town…. He has since moved on and sold his Weiti River mooring!

      • justsayin

        I know the water taxi driver. He is far from an honest man, and comes from the same small town as Scott Watson… Any remote chance they might have known each other do you think?

        • unsol

          That’s what I have always thought as there is no way that a Boatie would ever get things confused & the police were certain it was a sloop….plus the water taxi fellow dropped the pair off to where Watson was moored…..plus plus plus….not circumstantial that case!

      • Colin Price

        Proves that the cops involved in that case cant even count as high as TWO!

  • Whatever!

    Karam is a snake. And he has everyone fooled.
    He would probably do a better job for Len Brown than his 6 flunkies in the Mayoral PR team.

    • LesleyNZ

      Even Leighton was taken in by him this morning……….

  • Pete George

    A post showing the thumb marks and thumb print together: http://yournz.org/2013/06/27/bain-thumb-marks-and-thumb-prints/

    • LesleyNZ

      Well there we go. What will Joe say to this?

      • Sponge

        Joe will say it proves him innocent and proves Bain should be compensated.

        Joe would say Bain (David) was innocent even if there was a video of Bain (David) committing the murders. He has invested so much he cannot afford to say anything else.

        [edit for grammar]

        • Sponge

          Sorry Scott. I have just read a previous post by Imperator Fish saying the same thing. Google Reader (RIP also) going from newest to oldest got me.

        • LesleyNZ

          Quite right Sponge. Now I wonder what percentage of commission for services rendered are Joe and Michael expecting – this is what it is really all about. Pay time. They are worried.

          • Sponge

            Exactly – It is pay time. But the circus/money is about to close and the last tickets are about to be collected.

            It is a truly appalling thing to say but perhaps David did the social welfare costs in NZ a favour? From such a fucked up family I honestly cannot see a huge contribution to the country from any of them.

          • LesleyNZ

            Robin Bain was a gentleman in the true sense of the word.

          • unsol

            Knowing people who have met him does not men you or they knew him. He was nothing of the sort.

          • Agent BallSack

            With respect to your opinions Unsol, but at what point does the amount of circumstantial evidence pass the burden of proof mark? The police had enough and the jury agreed.

          • unsol

            The police had enough & the jury found he was not guilty beyond reasonable doubt; this means the jury found the circumstantial evidence was not compelling = it failed the burden of proof test (where “a duty is placed upon a civil or criminal defendant to prove or disprove a disputed fact”)

          • Mostly_Harmless

            Not only appalling, but incredibly unfair. Arawa, a promising university student and former head girl? Stephen, an innocent boy?

          • unsol

            I agree. A shocking comment with no basis whatsoever.

          • Sponge

            Appalling – yes, as I said. Mass murder is truly appalling too.

            Unfair? Possibly. But if you consider how most people brought up in these sorts of conditions/environments end up I stand by what I said.

    • GregM

      Thank you Pete, tells the story.

  • Middleagedwhiteguy

    Regardless of what you think of the guilt or otherwise of either party in this case, the police do have some responsibility here in that the forensic efforts have left too much doubt. A proper forensic approach that treated Robin Bain as a potential suspect as much as David would have given a far more certain result and we would not be having this discussion now.

    The fact that these 2 marks on Bains hand were neither noted by a forensic pathologist nor explained by scene detectives is an omission that was caused by the get David Bain approach to the exclusion of all other possibilities. The result is the confusion we have now.

    • LesleyNZ

      I am not confused. I have read the forensic evidence not Joe Karam’s opinion and armchair detective work and hearsay.

    • Agent BallSack

      I thought they did treat Robin as the suspect initially. Surely if this evidence was that important, the case will still have been focussed on Robin?

  • steve and monique

    Can they get partial prints off spent .22 brass. Or is that not possible. Would be to late now anyway.

  • Sponge

    If it proves he loaded the rifle (and I don’t for a minute believe it does) it certainly does not prove that he and not David fired it.

  • Patrick

    Why don’t they bring in that bird from sensing murder? I mean the so called evidence is on a par with that voodoo made for telly crap. She should be able to have a chat with a few of the deceased Bains & put the matter to rest once & for all!! Maybe confirm the winning lotto numbers for Saturday as well

  • opusx

    Never mind the fact that the police actually believed David from the get go and initially looked at the scene as a murder suicide. Only after the fact did it become obvious from the scene that it was not quite so simple. Joe seems like a reasonably intelligent guy, and he’s allowed to believe what he likes. But this stunt is nothing more than an attempt at compensation, pure and simple.

  • surfisup

    I agree, it does need some investigation by the police as it is new evidence — I can see the CSI thing going on, where they use computers to scale the marks in the photograph to 1:1 then compare that with the gun cartridge. If it matches up exactly, then, it would be convincing.

    • Bunswalla

      It’s painfully obvious from even the second and third-hand reproductions on the web that the two marks are in no way exactly parallel.

  • grumpy

    OK, answer me this then.

    if Robin shot himself, how come the magazine is on the floor and not in the rifle where it would have to be for him to shoot himself??!

    duh!

    • GregM

      Two magazines mate, one was 10 rounds, the other 5.

      • natman

        so david shoots dad, and whilst planting the rifle beside him, notices that hes got a couple marks on his own thumb from reloading the mag, gets the mag, and gives dad the same marks, wonders why he hadn’t put that in his original plan, probly didnt really need it as the paper run timing alibi was too perfect, but pats himself on the back anyway as he goes to put his bloody clothes in the washing machine.

        Only to find that during the trial this planted evidence never even gets a mention, and what with david having already been far too forthcoming with details of events of that morning in the house, thought he’d better shut up about that one cos it could open a can of worms.

        Interesting that now David gets to use those marks to get the payday.

  • Troy

    Who cares? I mean really, it’s not as if there is a psychotic killer out there just waiting to pray on someone – time to get over the whole saga – just haven’t we got more important things to talk about?

  • sarah

    and then there’s this and WhaleOil has even been noted in this one :)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8851997/Media-drawn-into-Bain-blame-game

  • Edwin Wigmore

    I think it is unforgivable that the reputation of Robin has been so besmirched. I wonder what he would say if he could now.

    Karam has used him as a pinata for ages. very easy to do when the person can’t fight back.

    • brian short

      it is very hard to imagine someone thinking about slaughtering their family and then committing suicide bothering to fix the roof and guttering in the days beforehand.

  • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

    How can anyone not notice that David Bain is as guilty as sin? Or at least as guilty as Ewen McDonald…

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