Someone needs to tell the teachers to start doing their job

The various Teacher Unions are holding our education system to ransom in protecting their patch.

Principals’ Federation president Phil Harding said it was a concern if schools were receiving ministry backlash for refusing to comply with national standards, especially if effective boards of trustees were stood down for Government policy reasons.

“Any school that tried to stand up to this policy has been given a very clear message that it’s not acceptable. I know from some conversations that it has happened.

Of course it is unacceptable. It is government policy, it is the right of the government to implement the policy and teachers are civil servants who should do as they are told. I wonder how the teachers would react if little Johnny decided that maths wasn’t for him that instead he’d be better off doing art during maths class. 

“It’s when it is done to an effective board and effective principal because of the position they are taking that we get twitchy and unhappy.”

The school he is talking about is dysfunctional and yet they defend them.

Meanwhile, teacher unions have launched a campaign to boycott the trial of a computerised national standards assessment tool.

Progress and Consistency Tool, which the teacher unions believe the Government is gearing to make mandatory for all schools by 2015.

It could be used to introduce performance pay that could see teachers paid according to their pupils’ achievement levels.

By ceasing their involvement, schools had the ability to slow down the development of national standards, Harding said.

Of course the government could introduce substantial penalties against schools which deliberate sabotage government policy. The first step should be discontinuing the practice of paying for the head of the various unions salary and put that burden back on the union.

  • Agent BallSack

    Parents get prosecuted if they dont send their kids to school to learn, what happens to teachers who refuse to teach according to the standards set out by the Government?

    • blokeintakapuna

      Comment of the day!

    • Orange

      How often does that happen? Does it ever?

      • Agent BallSack

        Very rarely and only to those who can’t control their kids not those who won’t, according to what I have ever seen published.

        • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

          It almost never happens.

  • rockape

    The Unions complain that charter schools will be lacking in accountability. Yet, here we have a Union saying their schools dont have to account for their performance. Are they serious, we want schools to be accountable for their standards but we dont want those standards to be measured. Accountability is accountability!

    • Bunswalla

      Also a very strong candidate for comment of the day.

    • jmanngod

      that’s not what they say

      • rockape

        Grammar Tut Tut, who are they?

  • In Vino Veritas

    An alternative school is what it is. And ERO have bombed them. Do charter schools have to comply with National Standards? If not, then they could apply to become one!

  • Kendall

    I know this has all been said before, but:
    The person who effectively pays your wage is your “boss”.
    Publicly opposing your boss and organising a campaign of dissent against your boss is grounds for formal action against you.
    I see no reason why this cannot be termed serious misconduct and form the start of a process of dismissal.

    As always these people are involved with teaching our kids not to do what they are bold and a belief of entitlement.

    Lets get crusher to work

    • jmanngod

      ha! teachers are such easy targets… but who is it you ask to teach your children, keep them free from harm, bolster their self esteem, coach them in sports, teach them to sing, paint, act, dance, calculate and be good members of society?

      • rockape

        Charter schools and maybe taught by those from just not the narrow World of Trained teachers.

        • jmanngod

          It is a pity that your teachers never taught you about grammar.

          • rockape

            Always a sign of a lost argument, resorting to personal abuse. With that sort of thinking its no wonder you dont work in the real World and have to teach.

        • Teachersrock

          I hope you use an unregistered non trained “doctor” so that you are not treated by just those with a narrow medical view of the world.

          • rockape

            Well sometimes I do, sometimes I dont. I often use alternatives to normal medicine. My physio sorts my aches and pains, My wife deals with most other things Shes a nurse so doctors are not often something I need.
            You seem to think you are the only people that can teach, well industry,the medical world,nursing world military, police, my garage mechanic all seem to do well with their own training systems. All non qualified in the education World. See thats your trouble, you have this limited view . There is a big World outside your narrow academic view and its taking over. NZGAs will be the way soon by whoever can provide. By the way my sister invented those, first in the Uk and then here.

          • Teachersrock

            Ahh a nurse, so she is trained. Bit 2 faced there I see. No surprise.

            And if anyone can teach I challenge you to do so for a term.

          • Agent BallSack

            I can do an hour a day for a bunch of 4th formers opining as to how the world is completely different to the fart enriched environment of the class room. Oh and business computing or graphics design.

          • Teachersrock

            No such thing as 4th formers.

            Keep up.

          • Agent BallSack

            Pity.

          • Agent BallSack

            Semantics however. I run a business – I have skills above and beyond the ability to teach. However I could if I choose TR, so those skills are out of reach to students as long as you clutch at registered teacher status being the only way. What skills do you provide APART from teaching?

          • Teachersrock

            Yes you run a business, you can come into a high school and lecture one hour a week on what you do and how you do it.

            I do not consider that teaching. There is a difference. Anyone can lecture, not everyone can teach.

            And what would you do with those who struggle to read, to take notes on what you are telling them? Those who take a bit longer than others, those that catch on fast and need extending. Please tell me how you are going to cater for the vast number of differences in the class, while imparting this oh so valuable knowledge you have.

            As for what skills I have, I have the ability to cater for all those sorts of kids and more. I know people like you do not value teaching, but without us evil teachers people like you could not be. So call up every teacher you had and thank them for giving you the skills you needed to get to where you are today.

          • rockape

            But your failing dear girl. Our kids are leaving school some unable to read some unable to add up!

          • Teachersrock

            And I dispute the Governments false numbers on that.

            If you take out all the special needs, learning disabilities etc… from those numbers, you are looking at a very very small amount of genuine failures.

            No, we are not failing. Not at all.

          • rockape

            Yes its everyones fault but yours. Maybe if teachers were honest and supported NS then the results would be more meaningful. But saboutaging the results do nothing for the credibility of the profession or more importantly the kids.

          • Teachersrock

            Please, tell me, what have NS shown us we did not know already? Come on, lets have it.

          • Agent BallSack

            That you fail the children not the other way around you cock munching fucktard.

          • Teachersrock

            LMAO, I love it when you lie. Makes me laugh so much.

          • Agent BallSack

            you can’t handle the truth lol my favorite line from that movie I can never remember :/

          • Teachersrock

            The truth is all I got.

          • Agent BallSack

            Nothing wrong with teachers. Incalcitrant teachers are the ones I despise.

            What does incalcitrant mean?

            In: Definitions and Word Differences, Names and Name Meanings [Edit categories]

            Answer:

            From the Related Link below: “The word incalcitrant is often used in Modern English, and is understood by native speakers to mean something like ‘stubborn,’ ‘resistant,’ ‘uncooperative’ (a Google search on incalcitrant brought 193 results, all with this meaning).”

          • Teachersrock

            You mean National voters, not teachers.

            There you go. Corrected you mistake for you,

          • Dave

            They have FORCED teachers to realise their methods are not working most of the time, and that they need to adopt new methods, inspire and get kids to want to learn.

          • Teachersrock

            Except they have done nothing of the sort because our methods are some of the best in the world.

          • pukakidon

            No you are just the turd floating in a bucket of piss. You are still a turd, not much better than the failing teacher throughout the world. How about listen for a change rather than thinking you are always right

          • Teachersrock

            On this site I have yet to see a case where I have been wrong.

            I am not saying I have made no mistakes during my time, but when it comes to comments made on this site, cannot think of a single one.

          • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

            That attitude is one of plausible deniability. If you really cared about the students you wouldn’t try to say the government is lying, give them the benefit of the doubt and try very hard to address this potentially very serious problem. Loads of people in NZ can’t spell and learn nothing at school. You work with teachers. I assume your personal acquaintances are in a similar field to you. I can assure you that from a broad cross section of society who I’ve had dealings with, most people under 40 have a very clear educational deficit inflicted upon them. Although it could be their own fault and not just the schools. Regardless, there are a shitload of cabbages out there. Many of whom I’ve had the misfortune to have to subordinate myself to. Ever worked for a cabbage whose daddy owns the firm?

          • Teachersrock

            The Government has been caught lying. So I shall say they have lied.

          • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

            You really are smug. Emblematic of your profession as a totality. At least now you don’t have to scratch your head and wonder why so many people hate your kind anymore, but keep it up. Whatever keeps those throw-back 70s era lefties away from any ministerial portfolio.

          • pukakidon

            That is it, anyone you fail are classified as special needs or disabled. How about get off your backside and cater to their individual needs rather than focusing on the path of least resistance.

          • Teachersrock

            Sigh, more lies I see.

            No. Everyone who fails is not disabled or special needs. But they have been included in this mythical failing % by National.

          • Agent BallSack

            I value teaching. I don’t appreciate the dismissive and condescending way you talk to me. however. You know what TR? I left Mana college at 14 having been expelled. I’m not your average fucking Tory. I bet I have more life to talk about in 1 hour than you have lived,

            Answering your points: If they cant read by year 12 – nothing.
            OR: By engaging their enthusiasm for something they enjoy, by perhaps listening to them instead of going for the bright kid. Im not there to teach them about schooling but to teach them what they may expect out of LIFE.

            I’m one of the dropouts for a fucking reason. Don’t show yourself to be that reason

          • Teachersrock

            In other words you could not teach.

            At least you can admit it. Others should follow your example.

          • Agent BallSack

            No my teachers couldn’t. They went for lunch and union perks.
            Now they’re retired and you should follow their example since you’re obviously entrenched.

          • Teachersrock

            LMAO, ohh my. Yes it was all the evil teachers fault you dropped out.

            And out of interest… what age group were you suggesting YOU would lecture to?

          • Agent BallSack

            I was thinking somewhere around your emotional age.

          • Teachersrock

            Goodness, such a witty stab.

            Care to actually answer the question as opposed to Hekia it?

          • Agent BallSack

            Yup burned your ass. LOL

          • Teachersrock

            Yeaaa, Sure you did. You and your street smarts.

            None of that commie book learning stuff for the likes of you eh.

          • Agent BallSack

            I love reading :) Not just comics neither no Sah!

          • Teachersrock

            Porno mag’s don’t count.

          • Agent BallSack

            Tell Shane

          • Teachersrock

            Why? He was watching movies.

          • Agent BallSack

            starts with Womans Day then you get into the harder stuff

          • Teachersrock

            Capitals at the start of sentences sonny,

          • Agent BallSack

            Foolstop.

          • Teachersrock

            By all means stop.

          • Agent BallSack

            I’m happy to threadbash. It’s all pageviews to Cam.

          • Teachersrock

            Pitty I am going to burst your bubble. Some of us have real jobs.

            And you care how many hits Cam gets? And they say teaches do not live in the real world where things matter.

            Nighty night.

          • Agent BallSack

            Some of us have real jobs, youre right. Then theres the teachers who think they know everything and have the secrets to the world and only they have the tools to impart them. Sadly, you’re in the latter category TR.

          • Travis Poulson

            Those that can’t do, teach.

          • Teachersrock

            Oh I do not know everything. Not by a long shot.

            But when it comes to education I outstrip everyone on this site that is for sure.

          • pukakidon

            That is the problem, the teachers in this country are never wrong.

          • Teachersrock

            Not true at all. And please do not lie and suggest I said that. My comment was clearly in reference to the self appointed experts on this site.

          • Dave

            Better still ABS, how does one stop the fool

          • Agent BallSack

            Not so sure of that. By all means volunteer to invoice my accounts every month and deal with IRD, expenses, depreciation et al. Oh wait, no let me sell you a tinny since you obviously think I am that kind of businessman. Since you’re talking shit about me, it would be fair to assume everything you say is shit, yes?

          • Teachersrock

            Goodness touchy aren’t you.

            Not sure where I suggested you are into drugs, and I challenge you to show that post. I am just implying you do not put much stock in fancy big city learning.

            You are more a let em go in the paddock Ma and they can learn as I did kind of guy.

          • Agent BallSack

            You teach at a big city? Last I looked it was a small town school in no where. I have never said anything bad against education in my posts, ever, only the methods. Everyone should have a damn good one.

          • Teachersrock

            And because of NZ’s teaching methods almost all children do.

          • Spiker

            Kiwi teachers are on the defensive because the teacher’s unions put out the myth for many years that New Zealand education was the best in the world. The best propaganda is that which tells people what they wan to believe. There have been attempts to support this myth with international statistics but, there again, statistics can be used to support oppsng arguments. It is simply not possible to compare educational achievement results on an international comparison. There are far too many variables involved to achieve anything. Besides, international comparisons are irrelevant to the real situation in New Zealand. International performance comparisons are NOT a valid gauge to New Zealand standards especially as Kiwi standards are NOT recognized internationally as a benchmark. Far from it! Studies do not compare apples with apples. Kiwi teachers unions are in the business of making teachers feel good about themselves and that is about the extent of it.

          • Agent BallSack

            Okay your emotional age: Gay and 14?

          • Agent BallSack

            Who cares. It’s pretty fucking obvious I am at least as intelligent, if not more so than you with 14 years schooling. Whatsamatter TR a bit slow were you? Sorry you have to suck teachers wages while I own a business. Now your tit is being threatened youre back insulting people. I don’t insult. Havent you got that over the last 3 years.

          • Teachersrock

            Hmmmm, smarter…. well street smarts is a kind of smarts I guess.

          • Agent BallSack

            Thanks for the backhand compliment. However I liked school…read avidly from 5 years old onwards. From Blyton to Dickens….was the ex soldiers I detested.

          • Teachersrock

            I would not take it as a compliment.

          • Agent BallSack

            Yeah you didnt say you admired the skills of life. Just that you guessed they may fit into life somewhere.

          • Teachersrock

            Street smarts are hardly the skills of life. Especially these days.

            But you go with what makes you smile.

          • Agent BallSack

            I smile everyday. Thanks for the reminder though. I wish you were my life coach.

          • Teachersrock

            Life coach? Good lord, going all Green on me are you.

          • fozzie2

            And where were your parents in all of this ? Not interested – not engaged – and you blame the teachers ???

          • Teachersrock

            It is the way of things on the right.

          • Agent BallSack

            I do thank the good teachers. I thank all the teachers of my children and try to get to know what sort of person they are, what methods and encouragements they use to teach so I can help where I can. Luckily they havent been unionised and biased towards new teaching methods – guess they’ll be getting a raise under the new Teacher Rating Tool if their results so quantify it.

          • Teachersrock

            Anyone can get kids to ace a test. Does not make them good teachers. Just good at cramming just enough in kids heads to pass worthless tests.

          • LabTested

            Auckland Grammar have 4th Formers.

          • Teachersrock

            If they do they are behind the times.

          • rockape

            Yes and many who are brilliant educators are not trained teachers. I ran an organiszation with 29 instructors, on the staff I had 2 trained teachers who assisted me with directing and organizing training. However they were backroom staff. They did not deliver any training, reason, they wer not qualified in the subject, just in delivery means. Why should educating our youth be any different.

          • Teachersrock

            Because anyone can lecture not everyone can teach.

          • Agent BallSack

            You can’t do either. You reach none of us with your teaching and your lectures attract down votes. Safe until the results start ‘role-ing’ in.

          • Teachersrock

            Wrong. I get down votes because it is me. This has been proved before. I have said the same thing as others on here who bow to the party line on occasion, and get downvoted all the same. Kind of silly really, but it is what I expect.

            And there is no reaching people like you with facts and truth about teaching. You decided a long time ago teachers are evil. There is no changing you now.

          • rockape

            I not only lecture, I also taught. Many of my trainees had so little skills in the basics of maths and english that the first part of the training was to improve those skills before we could take them further. I was also heavily involved in training design so know a little about training. Perhaps if you thought more about training for life instead of training for training sake your kids would be a lot better off.

          • Teachersrock

            Well given that I worked in the “real world” as you lot put it before teaching, that kind of kicks your silly ideas out really.

          • rockape

            What was pac and save short of staff. I have taught and lectured for 44years until I retired last year so maybe know a little of your field.

          • Teachersrock

            From your comments, I doubt it very much.

            But like I said below, whatever makes you smile.

          • rockape

            It makes me quite sad really that a proffession I once had high regard for has sunk so low. I see the product of KIwi education everytime I go to a shop, resteraunt or look at the unemployed kids who are unemployable. Very sad, still your salary keeps coming in doesnt it so you dont care.

          • rockape

            If you can tell me where in NZ I can get a placement I am up for it. It would suplement my pension, but will your union mates allow that?

          • Teachersrock

            Go to a local school and say you want the hardest meanest Year 7/8 or Yr 5/6 class they have. You are here to show the teachers how it is done. You are here to do what the evil teachers cannot.

            Let me know how you get on.

          • jmanngod

            perhaps if you cared to pay a little bit more than the min wage you may get something other than what you have?

          • pukakidon

            Easy, I have done it many a term. It is the biggest bludge around.

          • Teachersrock

            Yeaaaaaaa, sure you have. Anyone who says easy either lectured at High School or taught adults. No real teaching involved.

          • pukakidon

            I dont lecture, I teach. The age does not matter you tailor your teaching methodology to your audience to deliver the message. If the scholars of old were like the teachers of today then nothing would every have been discovered. You are hiding your head in the sand out of outright pig headedness.

          • Travis Poulson

            There’s a difference between not trained and unregistered. A redundant point of argument as far as teachers go. Try another one.

          • http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/ Whaleoil

            My children are taught remarkably well by a non-registered teacher…in fact way better than at a school with registered teachers.

          • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

            Why do you need a certificate which merely symbolizes that you spent weeks imbibing Treaty Revisionist platitudes in order to be allowed to teach? Lots of people with that certificate don’t know anything about the subject that it is their job to teach. Plenty of people with no bullshit piece of paper can do their job just as well, the comparison doesn’t work.

          • Teachersrock

            Interesting fact devoid ramble there.

      • johnbronkhorst

        Teachers are easy targets.
        But they can be easy targets for praise or ridicule.
        Making blatantly stupid statements as many have, including you(thinking you actually run the show, instead of being an EMPLOYEE , as you are). Then you are an easy target for derision and ridicule!
        If you get on with your job and inspire your students, report well on them , then praise is due to you. Usually delayed praise as I have done to SOME of my teachers!

        • Agent BallSack

          Some of the smartest people I know are teachers. Not all of them though.

      • Peej

        If you’re a teacher almost of the problems of our society are your fault. The lack of tolerance and lack of knowledge in the blogosphere was caused by your lot. And if you’d done a proper job the ignorant ones would have been motivated to find out about learning, assessment systems, the NZ curriculum and all the stuff to help their kids. They probably would have been civic minded as well and raced along to get onto school boards of trustees to share their wisdom. Because of you the best argument they can come up with is, “Do what you’re told!” And then you have the temerity to come on here and use a word like “pedagogy!” All your misdeeds and then you seek to induce apoplexy in the populace by doing that. Finally mister, I hope you realise that the millions of NZers who have succeeded in life, become great citizens and achieved outstandingly in the widest range of human endeavour, did it IN SPITE of teachers. Sorry to be so long, you probably have marking to do.

        • jmanngod

          You seem a little confused son. If teachers are the CAUSE of all of society’s ills then it stands to reason that their actions can also be the cause of it’s successes; (read that slowly if the logic is difficult). Yet, according to you: All success results IN SPITE of teachers?

          Can do Better – Good Luck!

          • Peej

            I was just getting the “in spite” in before someone else did!

            Posting something here as profoundly logical and true about the reasons for success in our country and expecting the naysayers to accept it is in any way due to teachers, is being very hopeful. While most of the whingers about teachers have little understanding of teaching and learning they do understand vitriol. I summarised their objections to those in the trade to save them the effort.

          • Teachersrock

            Someone does not get sarcasm.

      • Bunswalla

        Parents do that, idiot.

        • jmanngod

          not very well it seems today….. I guess you’re a parent then? I wonder which type you are?

  • Whafe

    Any teacher not adhering to the rules of their job description, of which is to comply with national standards…… Should be given written warnings…. This is what happens in any other work place….
    Give me strength!

  • johnbronkhorst

    Does anyone else get tired of telling these lazy bastards …..to get back to work and the do the job their BOSS pays them for?

    • jmanngod

      I have 3 degrees and have worked all over the world – I work in my spare time teaching and coaching your children while you sit on your arse at home sucking down beers and wondering where your kids are?

      Sorry was that an unreasonable unsubstantiated statement? Perhaps you could reconsider yours?

      • johnbronkhorst

        I don’t give a flying fuck how many degrees you have. That is irrelevant.
        Part of your job, that you DO NOT get to avoid, is National Standards reporting, as dictated under reasonable expectations of your employment!!! We all have that no matter what we do!
        If you think that is harsh, try, like me to run your own import, distribution and service business. Then see what the compliance is. That you MUST comply with or suffer legal consiquences.
        If you don’t like EVERY part of your JOB. Then Tough, welcome to the real world!!!
        Take advantage of your CHOICES…either
        1. Quit and get a job where you get to tell your BOSS how you will do your job (good luck on that one)
        2. Suck it up and get on with what you are PAID for. (In some cases OVERPAID for).

        • jmanngod

          Actually, I do get to avoid it. I teach secondary school. also, our employment is not a dictatorship.

          Finding it hard complying with bureaucratic irrelevance and redundancy are you? That is what you call IRONY – think about it… or just think.

          • rockape

            Overpaid, thats a joke isnt it. I wonder how many teachers would still be there if it was 8 to 5 like most of us and 3 weeks holiday a year. Prep time necessary but done in school and accounted for. Who would suffer most from that, not the pupils but teachers and travel agents, Without those long school holidays most travel agents would go broke! Its amazing how much school prep is done while travelling in Nepal or on the Gold Coast!

          • Teachersrock

            More than you teacher haters would be willing to admit. And when you take out the number of days most teachers work during the holidays.., plus the massive number of extra unpaid hours worked during testing and report seasons 3 weeks would be about all we get.

            But because you are not a teacher, do not know anything about the requirements of the job or the work done… you must know better.

          • rockape

            Not a teacher hater just like those on the Government payrole to be accountable(that word you fear again). Not a teacher (trained) but have taught (adults) for 40 years including a spell in the science department of Plymouth University, and not a teaching certificate in sight. Three very sucesful teachers in the Family however. A Director of Education and former Headmistress. A deputy head, and head of English at a girls grammar in the UK. What you need to realize is Parents are your customers as is the Government. You will do what they require or you may find its forced on you. Yes performance pay, privatization and accountability. Bring it on!

          • Teachersrock

            All failures from England and the US.

            What you need to understand is the kids come first, not failed ideas from other countries. Kids are the clients, not the parents. Most parents get this which is what teachers are one of the most trusted groups in NZ. I know teacher haters really get annoyed at this fact, but the truth is we do know what is best for kids, and most parents know this and back us all the way.

          • rockape

            What failure are you talking about . You are not writing very well now your angry, calm down if you tell me if you are accusing my family of being failures I would have to disagree. Your arrogance is amazing 3 years at Uni or was it teacher training college and you know it all!

          • Teachersrock

            I am accusing the UK and the US education systems of being failures,

            And it is you who are arrogant in thinking you know better than people in the job. I would not presume to tell a doctor how to do their job, so perhaps you should extent the education experts (of one you are not) the same courtesy.

          • rockape

            I rely on the education department to do that. And yes when I had teachers working for me I told them what to do and often how to do it. It is your narrow view of education that limits you. Thats why Charter schools will blow a fresh breeze through the stagnant self interested self governing World you live in.

          • Teachersrock

            CS’s are a dead duck. And are failures around the globe. The sooner Labour gets rid of them the better. It would be a nice touch too if they put the house into urgency and just push it through as soon as they get in next year.

          • rockape

            Reading too much Union propeganda again, come out in the real World. I know from the kids I used to train as adults just how ineffective teachers are.

          • Teachersrock

            Ahh the stupid “real world” comment. Refuge of the idiots.

            How many of those adults didn’t bother to try at school? Or do you just assume all teachers are evil. Boy if you have kids you better be home schooling them. Otherwise you are going to look rather 2 faced and stupid.

          • rockape

            Funny those school failure became successes under my training. Only one kid, largely schooled by his Mum and now owns one of the biggest IT and marketing consultancies in the UK. Got a louset degree though, far too much beer and rugby, took after his dad not his Mum.

          • Teachersrock

            Amazing how easy it is to teach near adults/adults who have decided to learn things. Not a very hard thing to do.

          • rockape

            Its called motivation the thing you fail to instill in the kids you teach. All must told they are successes . They then carry that into adult life and find the World is filled with those who are successful and those who are not. Sadly that realization comes too late for most. Maybe if they were taught from an early age that Hard work = success they would have happier lives. You leave them thinking succsess comes on a silver plate and that the World owes you. A bad lesson for life.

          • Teachersrock

            Funny given that is what is taught in NZ schools.

            Oh I know you will say otherwise, and blather on about this and that. But the fact is kids have to work at it to learn and they know it. High expectations, hard work, and all that jazz. But again, I know you will say otherwise.

          • Agent BallSack

            What a fucking dreamer you are Kosh/TR/Paul. Here’s a thought, pretend we’ve already lost again and go away until 2016 and come back and try again and again and again.

          • Teachersrock

            Who are National going to partner up with?

            Dunne is gone. Banks will be gone. The Maori party is knocking on heavens door.

            Labour has the Greens and NZF. National has no one.

          • rockape

            What makes you think they will need a partner. I dont. What is needed in NZ politics is an opposition. Labour are failing and the Greens “We are Saving the World” line is busted. Without climate change they will have to go and find a few whales to save, hardly a vote winner!

          • Teachersrock

            If you think National are going to win over 50% of the vote you must be dreaming.

            Unless something dramatic happens like Colin Craig’s merry band of nut jobs getting in, National are toast.

          • rockape

            I am sure time will prove one of us right, and anyway winnie can be bribed with baubles we know that!

          • Teachersrock

            And if John Key goes sucking up to Winnie we will all see the real man Key is. A slimey power hungry hypocrite.

      • Kendall

        I have qualifications, not to be disclosed, have too worked the world over, some of them not nice. If any of the people in the 6 training establishments I help manage decided not to do what they are told they wouldn’t last long.

        I have experienced many great teachers, and they know who they are, maybe I was lucky.

        • jmanngod

          Yes, I had some great teachers, some indifferent ones and some poor ones. I have been lucky to work with a few of them despite leaving school some 26 years ago. Hearing their stories about how the increasing amount of irrelevant paperwork is forcing them out of the job has been sad. Witnessing it firsthand has made me wonder how much better teachers could be without constant Ministry tinkering.

    • Teachersrock

      LMAO, Lazy, How typically anti teacher and poorly informed of this site.

  • jmanngod

    This is a bit of a silly article really. Teachers aren’t refusing to teach – they have mostly just noted that National Standards are meaningless and cause more problems than they are worth. They measure all kids against an arbitrary and invalid standard – thus creating impressions of failure.

    Parents like them because they have little to no understanding of pedagogy and grasp at irrelevant statistics to make themselves feel better.

    A more useful tool would be to reduce the number of class time hours teachers have and the enormous and mostly redundant amount of bureaucratic paperwork they are force to do to satisfy the Ministry paperchase.

    Schools already have fantastic reporting facilities and NZ ranks right up there with the best in terms of it’s education outcomes. What National Standards will create is a number of schools that fudge their statistics to create an impression that they are doing better than they really are: This is simple to do at a school and the problem is massively widespread

    The idea that school’s a not responsible, nor accountable, is a silly nonsense and scaremongering at best.

    I am a teacher (secondary) with a son at non-mainstream school where the National standards are paid the necessary lip-service, statistics are ‘created’ to appease the MOE and the school community could really not give 2 tosses about it.

    I also am NOT a member of any education Union – for reasons nothing to do with Standards but rather the Union’s annoying partisanship. But I certainly agree with them wholeheartedly on this.

    It is a little bit sad that so many parents (and clearly many posters here ) are so fundamentally confused about what goes on in schools… sadly, this is largely due to incompetence from the Ministry… but what can you do? If the public continues to support such measures then schools will find ways to present data, meaningless data certainly, but data nonetheless.

    • rockape

      Well what sort of information should parents have and the Government have? Should we just accept that teachers are doing a great job because they say they are. That pupils are doing OK because teachers say they are? Well news for you. Most of us who have employed or deal on a daily basis with the product of your teaching dont think you are doing a good job.

      • jmanngod

        Pupils ARE tested – schools regularly test using highly sophisticated numeracy and literacy tests. These are reported to parents throughout the year and then parents are invited to come and sit face-to-face with teachers to discuss any and all concerns. Bu the simple fact is schools from different communities (read: deciles) have vastly different needs not catered for or relevantly reportable in standardized testing.

        Teachers are reviewed and assessed constantly by their peers, management and the government; oversight is rigorous and ongoing. Are people actually unaware of this?

        • rockape

          When was a teacher last dismissed for incompetency. Oh I forgot teachers are all perfect. Isnt that why we producer teacher training colleges, for those who cant make it to Uni.

          • Dave

            Rock: Many years ago we (BOT) with the principal, had to force de-registration of a teacher, who was hopeless, nothing else could be done. All the other teachers covered for her and supported her in case the same happened to them one day. Meanwhile she brought a personal grievance against us as she felt we were picking on her as she was old and from a different ethnic group. But, 10 years poor results from her pupils fixed that, she resigned and retired a few weeks before the de-registration meeting.

          • jmanngod

            It happens every year. It doesn’t always make the papers as few cases make the NZTC, nor the papers.

        • Dave

          Reviewed by their peers is not a good measure Jman. Extend that to prisons etc, fellow inmates. “Yes Jake the Mus is a reformed man, he is perfect and due for a medal and parole”. Peer reviews. Pffftttttt really. Put a trained bunch of REGIONAL MANAGERS (NON teaching) and curriculum advisors (educators) who benchmark and advise schools how to improve.

          • jmanngod

            who else is qualified to do it? and as I wrote: they are also reviewed and assessed by management and the government – but the first and best review is by peers.

          • Dave

            Jman As above, which you seemed to have ignored, funny that. Reviewers of ones performance should be people at arms length. Lets take an education example, those teaching in a UNI or similar, must have the Qual ABOVE what they are teaching, IE, an MBA or graduate degree to teach an under grad course.

            So, to review a teacher, the reviewer should be MORE QUALIFIED, and I add, INdependent of the Teacher, and aware of the performance.

            Personally, the reviewer should listen to the CHILDREN and PARENTS, then look at the RESULTS of their teaching. A Principal is often too weak to review their teachers, they have a vested interested to protect them.

            There are exceptions, in the 90’s the principal of our school, stated to all new employees. “I am not your friend, I am your boss and employer. We set high standards, and expect you to achieve them, if you do not, e will discuss and you will be required to improve your techniques and there should be

          • jmanngod

            All of that occurs in the normal process – by all means go to YOUR school and check.

      • Mr_V4

        You seem quite happy to accept the argument in other threads the govt is ‘making us safer’ because it says it is however ….

      • Teachersrock

        Tell me, exactly what has NS told us that was not already known?

        NS are just the first step in this anti education government trying to slip in performance pay.

        • rockape

          So dont like accountability and dont like being paid to perform. I guess you like promotion without having to prove your worth it. No wonder you are a profesion that is becoming a joke.

          • Teachersrock

            Sigh, you are a bit dim.

            We have accountability coming out the wazoo. National want to pay teachers according to a paper test. One of the worst and least effective ways of finding out what kids know.

            But then you are not interested in facts. Just National party lines and teacher bashing.

          • rockape

            If you knew anything about validating learning you would know the only validation that works is external validation. If I want to know how kids are doing I will ask employers and universities if they are getting what they want from the teaching profession. If they are not then teaching is failing. External validation trumphs internal validation any time.

          • Teachersrock

            LOL, whatever makes you smile.

        • Dave

          Whats wrong with Performance Pay Kosh/Paul/Meg/GayGuy??

          Don’t you want to earn more ?

          Many years ago, I was given three choices for a contract, all salary, lowish and no commission, mid salary and mid commission, or no salary and bloody high commission, I Backed myself and took no base salary, did very well!!

          What your really saying Kosh, is a lot of teachers don’t back themselves, they know they don’t perform to national standards.

    • SJ00

      The last thing any parent wants is a kid to go to a school that fudges their results. If you want to tell parents little Johnny is a rocket scientist when he can’t read or write, then clearly the problem is with you. I think you are misunderstanding what parents what. Or putting words in their mouths.

      Why create statistics that are not true? Name the school your son goes to, I dare you. I bet everyone who sends kids to school there would love to know the school is making stuff up because the school thinks that is what everyone wants. Parents want the truth. They want to know if their kid is passing or failing, which allows them to make decisions.

      When I do my business IRD returns, I don’t send the IRD what I think they want to receive and fudge my numbers to make things look better. Because guess what, eventually the truth comes out. You guys want to fudge the numbers and make everything look good when the end result will tell the truth, then you shouldn’t be doing the job.

      And don’t tell us we don’t understand what goes on in a school and we don’t understand how to be a teacher. I had a girlfriend who went through Teachers College and became a teacher. She is still as thick as she was before she went in, and she didn’t get trained to be a teacher. She got taught alot of things, but not how to teach. Most of the time she complained about the Maori stuff that was rammed down their throat.

      Oh and your solution is to reduce the number of class time hours? Spend less time teaching? I can agree on reducing the paperwork, if there is in fact lots of it, but that applies to alot of other places as well.

      Why are kids measured against an arbitrary and invalid standard? What does that mean? What makes it invalid? Set a standard, everyone does it, and report on who passed and who failed. Is it not that simple?

      • jmanngod

        My son attends a Waldorf school – even as a mainstream teacher I’m pretty happy with their Primary school approach. The school community has already bought into the teaching system there and has no need for the NS’s to be reported as we are comfortable with the reporting methods already in use.

        Reducing teaching hours would allow for better preparation time – at present it used filling out Ministry paperwork – all dedicated to education output statistics.. a poor indicator of education outcomes at best.

        Statistics don’t reveal truth they supply data. Data is interpreted, any statistician can tell you that data can be tortured to reveal a number of conflicting situations.

        Yes, there is a lot of irrelevant stuff at Teachers College – it was the most disappointing tertiary course I have taken to date – but the NZTC requires it … so I too went through the process.

        In my experience – Parents have a poor understanding of a school’s working.

        And look, the Bell Curve as applied to a population IQ is a valid starting point when considering National Standards. If 50% of the population falls below the average… what is the point in constantly reminding them of this fact? Better to keep raising the level of the individual student as measured against themselves.

  • Col

    I went to the parent/teacher meeting, I was told by one teacher that my son would be best to move on, now he has done well in all subjects, but when the teacher is pissing him he just can’t do what he should. Best in Maths start of the year, now average, etc.
    Well I told this fat cow English teacher who thought she should have been a Brain surgeon, that she should spend more time teaching than trying to make herself look like something other than what she was, she said what do you mean by that, I said well have a look in the mirror at yourself, you look like a jig saw puzzle that has been put together, and nothing fits. Her mouth was wide open and I said thank you, and my son will be looking forward to being taught better from now on, have a nice evening.
    At this stage he is still in English and things are ok.
    Teachers need to be told the truth, some are great, and I mean that, others hang on like an old fly on the last bit of meat.

    • jmanngod

      There is some truth in that… some teachers are not up to scratch.

  • Dion

    > I wonder how the teachers would react if little Johnny decided that maths wasn’t for him that instead he’d be better off doing art during maths class.

    I’d say the tennis balls and blackboard dusters would become airborne very, very quickly.

    • Col

      If that was the case the teacher, or I should say a good teacher would talk too you, or better still what would happen the school would touch base with you.

      If I have someone working for me I do not tell them to fuck off because they are not performing well, I work with them. May be a good idea that some of these teachers see the real world before they start teaching
      Dion, you don’t really get it do you, must be mates with Teachersrock and the Labour party.

      • Dion

        You appear to be humour impaired – read my post again.

        I have and I can’t figure out how one could mistake it for an expression of support for the Labour Party.

        • Col

          Better stop here , may both get impaired.
          My problem was it bought up my pass when I threw a reading book at a teacher, hence the fuck up.

          • Dion

            Ah right no worries. I was referring to the tendency of pre-1970’s teachers to throw stuff at students.

            Can’t resist having a bit of a stab at them in these kinds of threads :)

  • Teachersrock

    Good on every single teacher.

  • Sick_of_it

    As a parent of primary school aged children, there are certain expectations I have on teachers and schools. I have the same expectations of any professional service I engage in my business. It seems though teachers have taken the “all care and no responsibility” route. If teachers refuse to use a national standard measure for performance, then every teacher should be forced to hold Professional Indemnity insurance, after all, I and every other professional in business has to.

    Remember, you choose the profession you go into, we are not a communism state…yet.

  • Spiker

    I once met a Kiwi teacher who couldn’t read a clock with hands. As one who has had quite a few teachers as personal friends, it seems to me that for years they were running around telling each other and anyone else who would listen that New Zealand had the best education system in the world. Belief in that myth made them complacent and they don’t like systems that show up the mediocrity in Kiwi education. Kiwis on the big OE find out soon enough that the Brits and the Yanks are very ho-hum about Kiwi qualifications. Mind you, it’s good in some areas.

    • Teachersrock

      The brits and Yanks are the last who should be passing judgement given the mess their education systems are.

      • Spiker

        You have been sucked in by the propaganda from the Kiwi teachers unions that British and American education is in a mess. That’s simply not true. It’s typical of Kiwi brainwashing. Britain does have some problems with the large numbers of non-English speaking immigrants, but that is problem largely confined to about 5 English cities and only then to certain suburbs. In New Zealand, the problem with literacy and numeracy is more general, less localized. When Kiwi tertiary education providers are having to put students through literacy and numeracy courses before starting the main course, there’s something wrong.

        • jmanngod

          please compare international studies between the three countries before you are forced to eat the words of your own ignorance chap.

          • Spiker

            I have studied the statistics. I am not the ignorant one. As a lecturer, I spend a lot of time bringing students up to speed and I am not the only one who is sick of it. What do think the main article is all about.

          • Spiker

            The problem with comparative studies is that, in the case of education especially, they don’t compare apples with apples, because they can’t. There are too many variables. The studies are futile and, actually, irrelevant to actual results in the New Zealand education system. Deficiencies are impacting on tertiary employment and training. So, before you accuse someone whom you know nothing about of being ignorant, please brush up on your own knowledge and grasp of the problem. Your defensiveness has rather let the cat out of the bag. Also, I would point out that I did concede that New Zealand education appears to have done well in some areas and I am glad that it has..

91%