Whaleoil General Debate

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keep-calm-and-don-t-shoot-the-messenger-3Morning everyone, and welcome to Whaleoil’s daily General Debate post (another one called Backchat will start at 6pm). To participate you’ll need to register a free Disqus account.

There are some rules, and if there is one thing about Whaleoil that you need to know is that these rules are dispassionately and strictly enforced.

  • Nige.

    This was on Leighton yesterday. (I posted this a bit late last night in BC)

    Incredibly the head of the black panthers is backing trump.

    Listen to the desperation in his voice.

    • Labour and Maori come to mind…

      • Nige.

        How much guts would it have taken for this guy to come out and say that?

        I hope he doesnt join the Clinton list.

      • R&BAvenger

        It’s an endemic thing across Western Nations worldwide. The ‘native’ or formerly oppressed have been hooked on left wing socialism after enduring genuine discrimination and untold hardship for generations.
        They are coerced through a culture of welfare dependency and fear of losing the ‘comfort’ of relying on the government for education, health, welfare and jobs.
        They are told the only way to retain all of these ‘good’ things is to vote Democrat/Labour or the equivalent, as the alternatives in government are going to take it all away from them.
        The problem being that what the state has provided for generations for these people is an education system that they overwhelmingly are less able to succeed in.
        This means that their job opportunities are much fewer, especially in a changing world of employment.
        Therefore they must be dependent on the government for their income, i.e. welfare, or to have their incomes ‘topped up’ (more welfare) as they are working in a job that is low paying, based on the skillsqualifications needed and pool of available labour to do those menial jobs.
        They can only afford to live in the poorer areas, petty crime is prevalent, gangs, drugs and the like are freely available. Business don’t want to set up in these neighbourhoods due to these factors, so there are no jobs. To persuade business to set up you have to have heavier policing of those areas. This leads to an ‘us and them’ divide between the locals and authorities.
        Intergenerational welfare dependency leads to no hope for these folks, no hope leads to involvement in crime, drug and alcohol abuse, contributing to dysfunctional relationships, leading to more single mothers on welfare, leading to more children born in an Intergenerational welfare dependent cycle.
        Maybe people are starting to slowly and surely wake up?
        Charter Schools in NZ are making a difference for the young folks, particularly Maori and Pasifika who have been let down my those political parties who have promised to look after them but have in fact been looking after their own interests alone, albeit with the best of intentions.
        The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions and the hell is that endured by these minorities..

  • Blockhead

    Ever wondered what the Reserve Banks of the world are trying to acheive? Or why Labour politicians think the solution to any economic problem is to spend more?
    At an economics level its the difference between Keynsian and monetorist views of how the economy works. Here are a couple of funny videos explaining the difference (in the rapper style.
    Part One:
    Part Two


  • Richard

    Any progress on the case of the missing Whaley Bin?

  • Sally

    As a frustrated mathematician it makes me angry when media publish a number with no information how that number is made up. For instance the number in homeless of anything between 40,000 and 44,000 is trotted out frequently. What is missing is how this number is formulated so the public is left to believe that is the true number. The number is based on the censuses in 2013 on one particular night with range of criteria which include a lot of people with a decent roof over their head. Three years later people can only guess what that number is now and whether it has increased or decreased. It is arbitrary figure that is all. No one has actually counted the homeless so take that number wth a grain of salt.
    Children in poverty is another with a large range of criteria and at the best is a loose estimate.
    Now we have the number of people who got sick in Hawkes Bay of 5000. Again no info how they got that number. Did the officials ring every household to find who was sick or did they ring all the medical centres and hospital to find out how many but didn’t count the sick at home who didn’t see a doctor? We just don’t know, it could be a lot higher.
    So the number’s game is just a loose estimate with criteria and then manipulated to fit an agenda.

    • Raibert

      Yesterday morning heard Hosking quoting a study that proved only 26% of 15 year olds lived with their biological parents. Was stunned by this, then he mentioned that the Otago Uni study involved about 200 families. But according to him it would be accurate because ” they know what they doing”. My response was “yeah right”! This is a blatant attempt to get acceptance of a position that justifies the actions or lifestyles of some people and it astounds me that this can be presented as news / public interest. He went further in commenting that the nuclear family was a thing of the past and those dealing with issues involving young people had to understand this.

      • KGB

        Sounds like they got their 200 from CYF.

    • oldmanNZ

      Its the same with poverty, obesity, starving, kids with autism. (suddenly, any kid who a little odd got autism)

      Chamge the criteria to boost the numbers.

      When i see these stats from the nzherald, i see baloney, no one shpuld take the Herald seriously.

    • EpochNZ


    • Nermal

      Don’t they know that if you make a number up, you don’t round it out. People will question 5,000, as it sounds like an estimate. But if you say it’s 4,973 everyone thinks you know exactly what you’re talking about. Take it from a BS’er from way back.

  • Doc45

    An example of the ‘law of unintended consequence’. Govt whacks increasing taxes on cigarettes so price goes through the roof. Now dairy owners are getting assaulted and hurt by thieves operating a black market.

    • oldmanNZ

      Make anything expensive, or ban, there will be a black market, paua long time ago was cheap, untill the chinese came, now there a black market.

      Dairy can choose not to sell them… And stick to milk and bread. But its probably there biggest seller.

    • Alan Beresford B’Stard

      Great to see those two dairy owners smack the crap out of those ineffective robbers yesterday. Give them a DB.

    • Aucky

      And marijuana will be exactly the same if legalised because the outlets will not be secure against robbery.

  • Sally

    For those who looked at Who Am I last night and just scratched their head I have just posted some hints. Remember google is your friend.

    • Duchess of Pork

      I look at Who Am I every night and scratch my head. Return two hours later and your regular Master of the Universe has solved it again leaving me scratching my head again (in amazement)

  • Korau

    “National has high hopes of taking the Hutt South seat away from Labour in next year’s election, and campaigning has started early.

    Prime Minister John Key was out and about in Lower Hutt on Tuesday with National’s candidate, list MP Chris Bishop.

    Mr Bishop stood in the 2014 election and cut the long-serving Trevor Mallard’s majority to 709 votes.

    Mr Mallard isn’t going to stand again and will be a list candidate in next year’s election, hoping to become Parliament’s Speaker if there’s a change of government.”

    Good. It will be nice to see a Hutt Valley MP at the Government table (assuming National is the next Government).

    Now all we have to do is flush the little ginger from my electorate (Rimutaka).

  • Korau

    Is having the proceedings any different to allowing the public to view the proceedings? It allows more people to see it. (corollary to televising Parliament).

    If however, there is a “directors cut” to alter the sense or legitimacy of the proceedings then the brown stuff will hit the rotating blades big time.

    • Nessie

      There will be a 20 minute delay in the broadcast (so RNZ reported yesterday) in order to allow editing of un-allowable material. And there is a time limit on the alienability on youtube.
      One commenter said it will hardly be riveting viewing –

  • Korau

    Where’s George? I’m missing George, I need my daily George fix!

    • Sally

      Last we heard he was planning a early morning raid on sun loungers.

      • He’d need to wear knee high socks and sandals to get away with it. Everyone will just think him a German tourist…

      • Roland

        Hope the Germans don’t win this war…

  • peterwn

    Won’t make any material difference. Having asked for the filming Kim can hardly claim down the track his case was adversely affected by the filming. Since Kim and his legal team are entitled to transcripts anyway the filming is not really going to benefit him. What would be interesting is if he tries to use the filming at any appeal hearing.

  • Wheninrome

    Such an interesting conundrum. On one hand we have the UN funding Assard in Syria who on the other hand is creating the large number of refugees which on another hand (if we had one) the UN is requiring its members to take in. Might have been easier and cheaper to avoid the middle man and fund the refugees takeover of their own country so they could stay at home, but I suppose that would have created different refugees, but perhaps they could have gone to Russia, she seems keen on Assad and his ilk.

  • Wheninrome

    I wonder whether Dotcom is going to charge for access to his streaming of the court proceedings.

  • Highly recommended for a morning laugh, especially if you are or were a dog owner.


    • johcar

      That’s awesome – I’m not a dog person, but I can certainly relate to the ‘activities’ mentioned, as I have friends who are dog people and hear the stories all the time!

  • oldmanNZ

    KDC loves an audience, he like to play the victim of the little guy being bullied by the government.
    Why so much of his supporters are anti government., hackers, crims and bludgers.

    He going to put on a show, might even shed a tear or two.

  • Seriously?

    I suspect the judge may have thought that to refuse would only create a reason to appeal and prolong things, but to allow it would be inconsequential. He may be right, but like you I’m uncomfortable about it. I cannot put my finger on why, but I feel uneasy about the idea.

  • Korau


    “On Tuesday, the electronics giant was hit with a massive €13bn ($14.5bn) tax bill
    following a two-year investigation into the unusual arrangement Apple
    had reached with the Irish tax authorities that saw it pay an
    extraordinary 0.005 per cent tax rate in 2014.”

    I feel this has legs, and all the other US tech companies who route their profits through Ireland will be watching with bated breath. It could be a repeat of the Spanish attempt to gouge tax from Google for intellectual property which lead to Google effectively rolling up it’s carpet and decamping, much to the horror of the Spaniards.

    As they say, watch this space.

    • Seriously?

      I hate that Ireland (and others) do this. It is all well and good to say it brings into Ireland business that would not be there otherwise, and maybe it does to a small degree (how much business does Apple actually do in Ireland). But if not Ireland that business would still be done, just somewhere else. In effect Ireland are complicit in tax avoidance by creating an unrealistic tax differential and that is happening at the expense of other countries and primarily for the benefit of Apple and its shareholders.

      The world would be much better off if there was one corporate tax rate applied world-wide (or perhaps a minimum), and people conducted business in the place that suited their production and sales, not their tax burden.

      • Korau

        Here’s a reply in the original source article which may explain some of the intricacies of this. Don’t know if it totally accurate, I’m no tax expert.

        “They pay 12.5% tax on the profits generated by the 6000 employees in Ireland, and 0% tax on the profits generated by employees outside of Ireland. They should, under EU law, be taxed in the country the profits are generated in, but under US law, where they claim the real money is made, the tax law says that tax should be paid in the country the company is registered in, ie Ireland. The reason they pay almost no tax is because they argue that their Irish employees generate almost no profit for the company, and the vast profits generated by the non-Irish employees don’t get taxed anywhere.”

        Edited for readability from the original cut/paste

        • Nessie

          In that case – why open foreign offices at all?

      • Ross

        Are you against the NZ Government giving tax breaks to stimulate movie production within NZ? Is there a difference?

        This is EU greed plain and simply. It’s no wonder the Brexit vote turned out like it did when the EU decides that a country no longer can offer tax breaks to companies to do business within it’s borders. Apple has operated within the law.

        Your suggested flat corporate tax would resonate oh so well within the EU Parliament but in reality, it’s bad for many countries within the Union.

        • Seriously?

          I don’t like them. They are a form of subsidy, much like we used to have for farmers. I’ll live with it (I do see a difference) though as I see it as a way fighting fire with fire in an industry specific context, but I think we would be better off as a global community if no one started the fire in the first place. Free markets get distorted by these things, and by tax havens, invariable at the expense of the general public.

          Don’t get me wrong, it won’t happen and I’m not sure I’d like the other stuff that would likely come with an institution with the powers to make it happen. But the actions of the likes of Ireland are just making a mockery of it.

          • Ross

            Do you support a common currency between Australia and New Zealand too, despite the fact our soft commodity cycle and Australia’s hard commodity cycle are seldom aligned? What about shared monetary policy in the EU? I can’t see how that’s benefiting the EU’s current economic malaise. I do appreciate it’s a strawman argument, and essentially tax relief to certain sectors is equivalent to to a subsidy. But in your eyes, where do you draw the line? Are science and innovation grants out? What about budget measures that support a certain industry? They’re effectively subsidies too.

            You will never get a global agreement to lessen the economic competitiveness between nations, although we’re a bit naive to think along those lines in NZ. Think about our ETS and how that’s hurt our global competitiveness when our largest trading partners all gave the middle finger to the concept.

          • Wheninrome

            Agreed, as long as currency manipulations takes place and NZ does it, trying to talk our dollar down, there will never be a level playing field where we all compete “equally”.

          • Ross

            Edit to add (thought I’d just add a new comment):
            All economies are different.. they have different resources (people, natural, economic) and therefore need different support. Are the social needs equivalent in France and Poland? Are the countries capable of outputting the same goods and services? In short, I don’t believe in common currencies across vast economic regions, and I don’t think there should be a global corporate tax rate.

  • sheppy

    I’d guess the exact reason for the filming is to prevent a fair trial in the US. Isn’t one of the reasons to block an extradition if a fair trial is unlikely? I guess KDC will be relying on some lefty credit left over from the last election to assist him with this technicality.
    It seems a smart plan, assuming the judge is as naive as he seems by allowing it to go ahead

  • Korau

    Gasp. Wow. Hold my breath.

    “In a scene that sounds more like it came from some thought-crime communist dictatorship than the United States of America, a former blogger for the liberal website Huffington Post found his articles deleted and his publishing rights suspended after posting two articles questioning Clinton’s physical ability to hold the office of president of the United States.”

    Are the left press deliberately censoring stuff that questions “her” health? Is the Pope catholic?

    Read more about an affected Huffington Post contributor here : http://www.westernjournalism.com/thepoint/2016/08/30/libs-terrified-of-questions-on-hillarys-health-do-something-stunning-to-one-of-their-own/

    This election is becoming the “Show of the year”.

  • JohnO

    The US is naively giving up governance of the internet on 30 September 2016 and trusting that governance will not be taken over by the UN, No doubt the globalists already have control of this (2nd) beast in their sights.
    When the Obama administration announced its plan to give up U.S. protection of the internet, it promised the United Nations would never take control. But because of the administration’s naiveté or arrogance, U.N. control is the likely result if the U.S. gives up internet stewardship as planned at midnight on Sept. 30.

  • Minnie Mouse

    This is flaky, I know. But who has been watching The Real Housewives of Auckland? I must confess that I’ve watched a couple of episodes and will no longer do so as I couldn’t quite believe how shallow these four women are. Life’s not really like that – or is it? If this is the ‘norm’ for these women, then all Ican say is “get a life girls” you make women look stupid. I poked my nose into Beauty and the Beach as well – can’t bear to watch it either.

    • oldmanNZ

      Its like trying durian for the first time.
      It look horrible
      It smells horrible

      But some people say its delicious,

      So you try it, and its horrible.

      Why try it when you know you wont like it.

      • Minnie Mouse

        Agree with your sentiments entirely.
        But I just had to see for myself to make that decision. I will no longer take a peek to see what they’re up to. Ghastly, ghastly, ghastly.

      • Miss McGerkinshaw

        How do you know you won’t like it till you try it? Good on MM for giving it a go though.

        • oldmanNZ

          That is true, but there are things you just know, and shouldn’t be tried,
          Like puffer fish shusi, and real housewives.

      • Roland

        I wont even let the family carry it in the boot of the car or store it in the fridge :-(

    • johcar

      For me, so-called “reality” shows are anything but, and I refuse to watch this dumbed-down ‘entertainment’ on principle.

      Stick with Netflix and/or Lightbox!!

    • Kevin

      Someone buy Angela a dictionary!

  • oldmanNZ

    Damn labour.
    They announced a emergency crisis on housing with house price average of 1m$…

    My price expectations are dropping every day.

    The market is crashing.

  • XCIA

    Ever wondered what life would be like under a Green, Labour et al coalition……..

  • Ross

    At the same time, if we provided as much to the Irish economy as Apple does, we would probably be able to get a deal too! Anyway I appreciate your thoughts as always :)

    • Seriously?

      Yep, and I guess that is exactly what worries me I suppose. To adopt a leftie slogan, it is a bit like a race to the bottom. At the moment Ireland is winning, but not as much as Apple is, and it all comes at the expense of tax-payers in other countries (probably the US mostly).

      • Ross

        Any worse/different to China taking advantage of their artificially pegged currency and slave labour? Or the Swiss National Bank spoofing the market and removing the floor to their currency to devalue? Maybe that’s a fallacy of relative privation, but all countries try to find ways to make themselves more competitive.

        • Seriously?

          I think currencies should be allowed to float, and salve labour is its own reward. But here, by seeking the competitive advantage in the way Ireland has, they allow Apple to avoid (legally so) paying its fair share of tax in a global sense and place the burden of that onto countries (probably the US or maybe China) where, but for the inducement tax setting, its business would naturally be located.

          I agree, countries do, and will continue, to seek comparative advantage. It is the way of things. But we’d be better off it they didn’t. Trouble is it is a bit of an arms race, you don’t want to be the one without nukes but it would be great if none of us had nukes and we all spent that money on something more productive (or better still left it with the tax-payer to spend). Won’t happen though.

  • Kevin

    I have to admit that sometimes it can be difficult arguing for banning the burqa, especially against someone who takes a freedom of religion approach. So it was good to find this article which decimates pro-burga arguments:


    “To wit, pro-veil: Shouldn’t a woman and even a schoolgirl have the right to dress in accordance with her own religious conscience? Isn’t religious attire a matter of individual right and religious freedom? More: If Muslim schoolgirls are displaying fidelity to their own religion and its traditions, shouldn’t this be deemed an enrichment of the broader French culture? Shouldn’t the French welcome the arrival of a new kind of piety? And if, instead, the French refuse to welcome, shouldn’t their refusal be seen as the actual problem—not the pious immigrant schoolgirls, but the anti-immigrant bigots?

    To which the anti-veil argument replied: No, the veil has been brought into the schools as a maneuver by a radical movement to impose its dress code. The veil is a proselytizing device, intended to intimidate the Muslim schoolgirls and to claim a zone of Islamist power within the school. And the dress code is the beginning of something larger, which is the Islamist campaign to impose a dangerous new political program on the public school curriculum in France. This is the campaign that has led students in the suburban immigrant schools to make a series of new demands—the demand that Rousseau and certain other writers no longer be taught; the demand that France’s national curriculum on WWII, with its emphasis on lessons of the Holocaust, be abandoned; the demand that France’s curricular interpretation of Middle Eastern history no longer be taught; the demand that co-ed gym classes no longer be held, and so forth. The wearing of veils in the schools, then—this is the beginning of a larger campaign to impose an Islamist worldview on the Muslim immigrants, and to force the rest of society to step aside and allow the Islamists to have their way. From this standpoint, opposition to the veil is a defense of the schools, and it is a defense of freedom and civilization in France, and it is not an anti-immigrant policy.”

    The burqa isn’t religious attire. It’s a gang patch. And it’s a gang patch that not only says “I’m part of the gang” but a patch that says “I’m part of the gang so you can’t rape me, unlike these Western women”.

  • JEL51

    Here’s an interesting guy from Bulgaria who has shouted himself a new car. I have always admired a man that can ride a horse. I guess he heroism will garner a few helpers if needed. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3767711/Business-booming-Bulgarian-bounty-hunter-dubbed-migrant-hunter-shows-new-75-000-Mercedes-rounding-dozens-asylum-seekers.html