Likely to plead guilty

Remember the outrage for the crim hugging, lefty, catch and release types that the 16 year old arrested for attacking the 5 year old tourist was some innocent poor kid who needed to be given a chance:

The 16-year-old boy charged with a brutal attack on a five-year-old girl at a Turangi campground has asked God to “make me a man, without hate, anger and stress”.

The teenager whose name is suppressed, appeared in the Taupo Youth Court today and indicated that he intends to plead guilty to charges of burglary and sexual violation by rape, as well as a third charge of aggravated wounding that was amended to causing grievous bodily harm.

Perhaps someone could start the building of the scaffolding and selling tickets.


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  • Anonymous

    String him up, the scum doesnt deserve to live.

    • Are you going to string him up?

      • Peter Wilson

        China? I read somewhere about the missing 2 million girls in the birth stats. Because of the one child rule it’s thought these girl babies have been murdered by their parents.

      • Paul Rain

        PW: Little off there, there are two million more boys born than girls about every 22 months, and it has nothing to do with murder unless you consider abortion to be murder (or maybe it’s murder if used to maximize your child’s potential value as a retirement fund, but not murder if used as contraception).

    • Agent BallSack

      He should be glad he doesnt live in China. Minimum sentence is 10years, Maximum the death penalty.

      Carnal knowledge with girls aged under fourteen (14) years is considered rape
      and deserves a heavier penalty.II. Rapists will be punished with imprisonment from 10 years to life imprisonment, until deathpenalty under following circumstances a) Raping women or minors viciously ;b) Raping more women and minors ;c) Raping women in public ;d) Raping in rotation by more than 2 offenders ;e) Causing death or serious consequences.

      • I thought rapists could be imprisoned for 20 years? Not sure how many years non parole though? Labour brought in changes (one of the very few things I agree with) in 2000 – from memory the judges at the time were largely opposed, saying things like “a woman cant get raped by her husband” & if she wore a short skirt late at night she was “asking for it”…

        Would be interesting to know the rates of abuse & rape in China…mind you it depends on what they define as abuse….think back to the 2 year old lying dead in the street & being ridden over, or the 2 year old chained to a post while Mum worked as there is no child care….

  • .380

    good to see the soft-cock taupo mayor interviewed on the news last night about this piece of shit say:

     “this boy deserves full marks for indicating he intends to plead guilty…..”

    deserves a full load more like it – to the back of the head

    • Killjoy

      I imagine you are talking about bullets as opposed to anything else?? #gutter mind

    • Wayne

       Yes, it is unbelievable,,,,,it’s as if the ‘rehabilitation’ process has already begun. The mayor…what an absolute idiot. And the judge saying how ‘smart’ the animal looked. As well as providing him a forum to read that prayer. What an absolute load of fucking shit.

      The court should not be providing this sinister, evil, life-form a platform. The court should be there to determine his guilt (which is about 100%), and then pronounce the appropriate sentence.

      In this case there is no rehabilitation. The guy raped a five year old kid. He is evil, and a deviant. In my world he would be frog marched to the gallows. So what if he is only 16? The US was executing 16 year olds up until only a few years ago.

      A 16 year old understands what evil is. And this guy is more evil than a graeme burton, a william bell, even a clayton weatherston. Fucking hang the fucker.

  • muffin

    This person is an animal and deserves to be kept in a prison or zoo, as for his mother complaining that they have been “hounded” seriously who gives a crap he deserves all he has coming to him.

    • Dr Wang

      Yes, the little shit-bag’s family want to jump on the bandwagon and be “victims” of this crime too.

      His Facebook shows him boozing up with friends and whanau, and “expressing anti-police messages” so sorry Mum – you’re part of the problem, you can’t bleat that you’re a victim too. She shows no sensitivity for the real victims, the selfish bitch just cares about herself.

  • Bunswalla

    The rest of the article is sickening, including

    “Judge Jocelyn Munro told the boy he was looking very smart and said she had read
    a letter he had written. She had also been told that he had written a karakia,
    or prayer, and invited his mother to read it out.”

    I’m surprised she didn’t invite him round to her house for some tea and pikelets.

    • mother of 5 from pakuranga

      yea but she’s not totally stupid – she’s probably got a young grandaugther or something

    • Thorn

      She may be grooming him for a root.

      • Notrtotsky

        I know i shouldn’t have but I almost spat out my spleen I was laughing so much at your comment

      • bb

        she’s not his type – he prefers 5year olds.

  • Politically Unstable

    I dont want to make excuses for the kid, but surely he must have some undetected mental illness and should not have been allowed out in public? I cant imagine he will survive a violent end in any institution other than a psych ward.

  • Lesley

    I could not believe one local woman’s reaction to this “boy” pleading guilty. Check it out at this link at 1:54
    Another local woman says it as it is in between what the first local woman says:
    1:54 – First woman: “I really feel for that young boy, you know I really do…..
    Second woman: “…..He needs to be put behind bars……”
    First woman: “…..this has probably ruined his life and his family….”

    • Wayne1827

      This is the fucking outcome of years of fucking thinking that we should be soft on criminals, ‘forgiving’….etc.

      The sense of what is right or wrong has been blunted. This stupid woman has insulted and disrespected the victim and her family,  as has the mayor and the judge.

      The vermin deserves only condemnation. As long as he is not punched or kicked around that is enough. Do not provide the fucker with any human warmth. He deserves none. The actions of the judge, the mayor  and that women is fucking creepy.

      Why? because a society that does not condemn unreservedly evil of this nature is frigging creepy. This sinister, evil sack of human faeces should be dangling from a noose. Not getting dressed up and getting told by the judge how swish he looks.

  • TimBoh

    I suspect there may be a gang initiation suggestion lurking somewhere in this story. Except they didn’t tell him about the age restriction. I have heard that a gang ‘official’ has been helping with their enquiries.

    • Politically Unstable

      That would not surprise me – this is not the act of what I would call a normal 16 year old. I mentioned in a previous post that maybe there is a mental issue, but you could label 99% of gangs in that category. My undertsanding is that its the 1% of smart criminals that are the biggest problem for the police

      • Paul Rain

        Yeah, this is well illustrated by the aftermath of the ‘Miranda Warning’ being instituted in the US by some soft-cock judge. Criminals are so stupid in the main that being told they didn’t have to answer any questions from the police didn’t significantly change the rate of confessions.

        Fortunately, smart criminals usually end up having to interact with thick criminals to get crime done.

    • Notrotsky

      oh I hope so, an excuse to deal to these low life predatory scum would be excellent. The sooner all gangs in NZ are rounded up, put through the meat grinder and fed to the chooks the better NZ will be.

    • Catwoman

      There was a gang party in very close proximity that night.  This has all the hallmarks of initiation for a prospect.  Scumbag – throw away the key.  Saying he wrote a karakia is an insult to the meaning of the word.

  • Justin

    Sounds like he should be spaded

    • poorman

      Do you mean beaten with a spade…

      … or the other type?

      • phronesis

        I think you mean spayed, although you can use a spade…

  • Mike

    “…asked God to “make me a man, without hate, anger and stress”.

    Typical of the mindset of these people – waiting for somone/thing else to do things for them.
    The only one that can “make me a man, without hate, anger and stress” is yourself you loser, but it’s too late now.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t know about God making him a man, hopefully in jail he will be ‘made a woman’

      • Dr Wang

        You mean like…tear him another arsehole?

  • EX Navy Greg

    I just hope the Judge has seen his facebook page, which gives a far more accurate description of character than some poxy karakia.

    • Anonymous

      It’s impossible for a judge to get a true picture of a person’s character based on a few days in court and a psychiatrist’s opinion. They should be allowed to introduce character witnesses from both sides as opposed to only hearing from the ones who have nice things to say. 

    • Peter Wilson

      Interesting. I don’t see why something like Facebook couldn’t be used as some kind of historical characterisation. Sure there’s a lot of nonsense on there, but it sure is an honest depiction of someone.

  • James M

    maybe a hint to this shit stains FB page????? Hmmmmm.

    Lets face it we all want to have a go at him. if he doesn’t make it behind bars i’d want the local comunity and nation making him feel unsafe about walking the streets.

    This aint a threat, its just common sense this is how we make people feel who perfom such down right low acts.

  • notavictim

    Agree, good call James.

  • kevin

    Never been any mention of his ‘father’ in the media. His ma takes centre stage. Is it another case of a f f f,  = fucked-up-fatherless-family?

    • EX Navy Greg

      Nooo! actually the father fronted up very early ( under a towel)  and said ” the boy has an alcohol problem.
      I have two questions for Dad:
      1: who did he get the alcohol from?
      2: what did you do about it ?
      Answers,1= us, 2= nothing

  • Gazzaw

    The little shit pleaded guilty either because of the sure knowledge that DNA doesn’t lie or the gangs have told him to plead guilty to avoid compromising evidence being produced in court. There is obviously already an agenda underway to secure a sympathy vote from the liberal fucktards.

    Maybe his mother was doing some supermarket shopping in Rotorua when the offence took place. 

  • ConwayCaptain

    National Radio reported this morning that the family has returned to Belgium

    • T….

      I understand their desire to get the fuck out of dodge by why aren’t they ensuring the bastard gets maximum jail time. I understand he’s on a Family Conference this weekend… to give power to the family of the crim (as reported in Stuff/Dom Post)… why aren’t they there weighing in? Or are the police and doctors doing that for them?

      • Tristanb

        No point. If I was from overseas on holiday in some tinpot country that inexplicably treated the perpetrator as a victim, and already had the judge complimenting him on his appearance I would say: Fuck this, fuck NZ, let’s get out of this hellhole overrun by scum and gangs.

        I wouldn’t be able to stand it at the end of the trial as the judge congratulated the piece of shit for confessing, thanked him for his beautiful Karakia, consoled his parents about his 2 years in jail, and got him to write a letter about how he’s going to be good from now on.

        If I was in on holiday in a country that punishes these criminals appropriately, I’d hand around to see the fucker get life (or in some countries, death). But not in NZ.

    • EX Navy Greg

      The family is still here, the little girl is still too injured to travel. HOS sunday 15th

  • What this boy did was vile beyond comprehension. Had it been my child & I SAW him on top of her there would be no stopping my rage & efforts to crash through that caravan door & bludgeon him to death. Then I would get my husband on to him. I honestly could never see myself as being able to get past witnessing something like that and as a family it would destroy us. My past means I would struggle to survive it.

    But incredibly people do – Look at Lesley Elliot. What an incredible woman. God only knows how she has coped. Amazing. And this girl’s parents seem to be doing remarkable well too.

    As for the boy – even if it was my child that he hurt, if I did not SEE it happening I am fairly certain I would be able to take into account the bigger picture: no loved, nurtured, well adjusted child grows up & does something like this. These kinds of actions are indicative of a much darker, sicker & sinister story. I hate to think what he has been through and make no mistake, while I would expect him to be punished AND rehabilitated to the full extent our system can do this, I want to see change come from it. I want his mother, his family, his, school, his neighbours, his community to step up and look at what they could have done differently. To step up and take responsibility for failing to love & nurture this boy, do recognise what is clearly massive psych issues & to ensure they raised a boy with self control and empathy.

    Prison is a sticky plaster as is vigilantism or even the death penalty. It may take care of this one boy but it doesn’t reduce the extraordinary harm & trauma he has put that precious wee girl & her family through AND it doesn’t stop more kids growing up doing the same.

    If you really care about this little girl and the well being of ALL our children then you will look for a solution so it doesn’t happen again.

    But sadly it has been a few weeks since this happened and you can guarantee that 10s of New Zealand children have been molested, raped, beaten, neglected, ignored and abused in that time. 

    We have a culture of silence when it comes to all forms of abuse in this country. A country where boys as young as 8 commit sexual offenses. 

    Only when this changes will our children and that of tourists be safe.

    • Paul Rain

      Always irritates me a bit when someone says “We have a culture of silence”. Care to get any more specific?

    • Paddles83

      F $%#king bullshit “We have a culture of silence”  and stop hiding behind this excuse. Our dark coloured skin NZers ONLY have this culture.

      • Bullshit – you’re naive & ignorant if you think only “dark coloured skin NZers” have this culture. You would do well to go work for Victim Support, Jigsaw, Stop, Womens Refuge & Rape Crisis in a large town or city – then you might have something of substance to add to the discussion

      • Paddles83

        That hit a nerve………. I would suspect you are Maori, Female, been on or are still on a benefit and now has become a social worker :)

      • phronesis

        Unsolicitedious you are just tedious. Social Science “Research” always finds exactly what it sets out to. Ministries put their data through the political spin cycle so many times it shows whatever their minister wants it to. I will now paraphrase what I think most of the readers here are thinking when they read your drivel:

        It always irriates me when I have to elaborate on the obvious…

        (I am an obnoxious stuck up bitch)”We” refers to most NZers, to mainstream NZ who have no bloody clue about anything, who are quick to jump on their high horse…

        (Sounds like you alright, leave me out of it thanks)

        & demand ‘lock him up & throw away the key’, who have no idea what lives some of the kids live, who because the content is so graphic don’t want to talk about it & would prefer to say ‘that’s awful’, ‘shoot him’, ‘kill him’

        (Oh the poor little criminal, it wasn’t his fault his life was awful so he had no choice but to go out and commit obscenely violent crime. Lets all talk about it but take no action beyond hugs all around.)

        never mind the other issue of who is going to pull the trigger…the only people comfortable killing another human being are murderers.

        (Really, so the ANZACS were murderers then? That girl in America a few weeks ago protecting her baby was a murderer? The only alternative is that killing can be lawful under certain circumstances, and people here believe this is one of them.)

        I would go on but your posts are all tl;dr.

      • phronesis – clearly you have no real interest in the issue so feck off. 

        Unless you are putting your time & money where your mouth is then it is you NOT me that is on the high horse.

        I can take the moral high ground as I am least trying to do something about the 30 plus children abused, neglected & maltreated in NZ every day.

        Like I have asked of the other haters – what is it you are doing exactly?

        My comments on here are only tedious if you find the issue tedious.

        Those who are passionate would be interested in taking the time to actually address the issues – if you oppose that is fine, but at least come up with alternatives instead of just throwing around insults. Aren’t NZ children worth this?

    • Peter Wilson

      “Had it been my child & I SAW him…. ”

      I don’t think you’ll get any prizes for wanting to attack someone that threatens your child. The real question to ask, is what would be your reaction if it was YOUR son that was the perpetrator? Beat him up? Declare him dead to you? The answer to that question is key.

      • Peter that is a silly & nonsensical proposal – my son wouldn’t beat & rape a child or anyone as children who are loved, nurtured, validated & free from any kind of abuse do not grow up & rape & beat people.

        If my child had a mental illness that resulted in potential sexual offence risk factors then as a good parent I would ensure those desires never came to fruition via doctors, treatment & monitoring (since mental health facilities are almost non existent).This is the point that most of you have missed – the fact that this boy was even capable of such horror was no whimsical accident. It was resultant from what one can easily assume to be years of abuse & maltreatment and/or serious mental illness. I assume the former judging by reaction of his mother.

      • phronesis

        Oh Unsolicitedious that is a truly hypocritical response. So abuse is not just a brown underclass problem but a white middle class problem, BUT NOT YOUR LITTLE DARLING BECAUSE HE IS PERFECT.

      • phronesis – hardly hypocritical. Hypocritical would be me saying that and then my child growing up & raping someone. Perfection doesn’t come into it. We are talking about socio path behaviour resulting in the beating and raping of a 5 year old girl. Socio path behaviour almost always resultant from serious abuse in early childhood years.

        Every good parent who loves, protects & nurtures their child has the right to stand up say that their child would never do this.

        But what is a good parent – being honest with yourself & your spouse? If in a relationship a loving, healthy & committed one? Taking the time to invest in being a good parent? Understanding that it is something that has to be done proactively, that it is not something we all instinctively know how to do, that we have to LEARN  how to be good parents? Seeing raising children; raising adults as a privilege NOT a right? Understanding what a child needs in order to become an empathetic, well adjusted & contributing adult? 

        I’d be interested to know whether you are a parent….

        One thing for sure is that the mother of this boy was certainly not a good parent.

      • phronesis

        Unso your problem is that you are not responding to the very real points that people are raising in their responses to you. No one minds your choice of style as long as you can take it as good as you give. Yes I am a parent. Yes I am an expert in a particular field of human behaviour. My upbringing and education was exceptional and no doubt contributed to my professional success. I also accept that I myself am capable of serious violent behaviour and that I am not always the perfect parent and spouse. What we are discussing here is an unfortunate fact about the human condition and how we should respond to that and discourage its expression.

      • Can you please elaborate on what these “very real points that people are raising in their responses to [me]” are?

        Most of what I have seen has not been contructive and instead serves to try & insult me & skirt around the key issues that need to be addresed.

        I have offered my ideas, some of my experience & some solutions but where are the constructive alternatives?

        You say you are an expert in human behaviour then why not offer your solutions instead of coming out guns blazing at me? Your last response implies an eloquence & careful thought that I failed to see in your earlier, rather emotive responses.

        Being an expert in human behaviour is a little ambiguous – are you talking about child psychology? Mental health? Relationship therapy? And do you have solutions for combating not only the overt, but the insidious & unreported abuse in NZ? What do you think has contributed to the growing rate of what Cactus Kate calls the “feral underclass” who are predominantly responsible for our abhorrent child abuse record?

        These are the kinds of things that I would like to see debated, but few seem keen,

        I don’t have a degree in child pyschology or anything to do with human behaviour and while I too had an “exceptional upbringing & education” (bar my first few years thanks to a drug addict white upper class mother who loved abusive white upper class boys), I know first hand what a volatile & abusive family can look like as experienced it a little & have volunteered with it a fair bit.

        So given you have now said you are a parent I am surprised that you see nothing of value in the comments I have made and further, imply that no one should be able to declare that a child of theirs would not grow up to be a socio path who beats & rapes a 5 year old girl.

    • Arnold

      maybe we can pass another law like anti-smacking – that obviously has been a huge success…….why don’t we just cut his dick off and put him in jail for a while….he will soon find out what it was like for his victim….scum are breeding scum, if it was my kid…well luckily it wasn’t

  • ConwayCaptain

    The way to stop this is quite simple.  Bring the DPB back to what it was intended for, a helping hand for a woman to leave a violent relationship and for a spcified period.

    Stop giving it to all an sundry and a person can only apply for the DPB for a total of so many years.

    This would stop the baby factories.  I read that sonme woman in Akl had been on the DPB for 30+ Yeras.  Oh and while you are on it you are on a long term contraceptive.  Not the pill.

    • Agent BallSack

      I hope National will bring in limited DPB and Welfare cards as promised, at least then we know the kids have a decent chance of being fed, not the pokey machines and addictions of the parent/s/sock carer.

    • I agree with the idea of reforming DPB but no DPB didn’t stop the Newlands Baby Farm murders….

      • Agent BallSack

        From memory of that case the lady involved still took money to look after and adopt out infants and murdered them with a needle through the brain or smothering? That case was infamous due to its relative rarity. These days baby killing is standard. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

  • ConwayCaptain

    In Stuff there is a report about a pregnant woman being assaulted on the streets of Rotorua

    • Anonymous

      Rotorua is all class, anyone want to take a guess at the ethnicity of the attacker?

      • proud wahine

        try white trash

      • Anonymous

        I’m gessing it wasn’t a Tibetian monk, I think you and I both know the answer. So does proud wahine, but not the answer she gave. That was just a sidestep.

      • Anonymous

        actually i take that back, it was what appeared to be a white girl kicking the shit out of a “black b****” for allegedly sleeping with her man.

  • James Gray

    Due process took it’s course, but the idea that the police could never get something wrong needs to be challanged

    • Paul Rain

      That’s right, they assumed that overwhelming proof of guilt would be enough for the case of the Bain family murderer. It turned out they probably should have collected more evidence.

  • Sarrs dont know how to reply underneath your comment so will reply here.

    No I emphatically disagree. As far as I am concerned, we as a nation are responsible for any child that is harmed in our country on any given day.

    Sure most of us may not have direct responsibility, but we can still certainly talk about it, to get involved with the groups that work with at-risk children & their families.

    Most people have no idea who these groups are. I do. I do not participate in the culture of silence as I am an active advocate against it. So I know first hand our difficult it is to 1) get people to talk about it & 2) do something. 

    To me this is indicative of the “silence” I referred to. The silence not only encompasses the lack of dialogue, but also just plain ignorance on the issue.

    NZers are naive as seem to think that if they don’t see it happening, it isn’t happening.

    Yet at least 30 children are abused, neglected & maltreated in NZ every day with at least 1 in 4 girls also being sexually violated by the time they turn 16. God knows what the stats are for boys.

    Even if you don’t personally know of a child being harmed you can 1) ensure your child is always safe – keep them in arms reach at parks, motor camps, town/city family events etc & 2) talk about the issue amongst your own circle, 3) donate money and/or time to the organisations that are being proactive. Collect for them, hand out brochures, email their links & information instead of stupid cat clips from You Tube.

    Zero tolerance means being proactive every single day until we have a ZERO record of abuse.

    • Thorn

      As a nation we are punished for each and every time a child is harmed. These battered and abused children grow up to be enemies of our society. 
      The reality is we have a divided nation across a fundamental line of civilised and not-civilised norms. The ‘uncivilised’ as a group over consume and under contribute, and if they were to be snapped up in a rapture, the ‘civilised’ would be free to enjoy what is God’s Own. Civilization is not about race, it is about adherence to a set of values. You have forgotten that we have to stand-up and defend our values, using our warrior skills. I have not forgotten my unconditional commitment to defend my family. You can fuck-off with your bluster and bullshit.

      • You lost me after the first line then you proceeded to talk complete & utter crap.

        God do any of you know anything about child abuse?

        Whale has certainly posted enough on the issue, there is loads of data easily accessible & organisations are only too quick to explain the issues they face & the help & resources you need

        From all accounts most of you appear to be male so perhaps that explains the problem you have with the lack of substance behind your views & your complete & utter lack of comprehension of the issue.

        No wonder your gender continues to rape, beat, abuse, neglect women & children.

      • Paul Rain

        That’s some real smart thinking about gender.

        Females are adapted to be likely to nurture children. Males are adapted to be more likely to fuck and forget- something that’s quite hard to do if you have to carry around the result for nine months.

        Surprisingly, gender roles in society continue to reflect this.

    • Paul Rain

      The families of ‘at-risk children’ are by definition ‘risky’ families. The only serious way to crank into the problem of abuse is either to change the culture of those risky families- which would be racist- or to reduce the number of ‘at-risk children’ born into them, either by benefit reform or sterilization. Fat chance of that happening.

    • Sarrs

      I agree 100% with you that there is a problem with violence against children and other vulnerable members of our society. And you are right, most people aren’t aware of what groups are involved in sorting out the mess that this violence leaves behind. 

      Your definition of ‘culture of silence’ seems to be different from most. It is generally accepted that when speaking of a culture of silence it is related back to not reporting abuse or suspect abuse situations. You are saying that our culture of silence is about the issue in general – that we lack dialogue and frank discussion, not only of the abuse but of the ways of supporting those who have suffered. In that, I agree but I think most people are disagreeing because to say that ‘we’ have a culture of silence is tantamount to suggesting people like me and my fellow posters that we would ignore abuse if we were ever confronted with it. And I can say with absolute certainty that I would not. 

      Ultimately, there is a level of personal responsibility involved. I say it here all the time – education is the key. Your ideas will work, but only if you get it into those kids’ heads that abusive situations are not ok. Every child in the world starts with two parents – any parents who are unable or unwilling to protect their own children are the problem. Go spread your ideas to them, not us. 

      • I completely agree Sarrs – well said, you explained my stance perfectly so perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

        Yes I am referring beyond the ‘right to silence’ stuff and about our lack of dialogue & willingness to get our hands dirty as a whole, as a nation who should be seeking to do everything possible on the individual, community & government levels to ensure every single child is safe from harm.

        I do not believe most people would address abuse if confronted with it as most do not. You say you would – have you ever confronted anyone being abuse – whether physically, emotionally, verbally? I have and it is tough. My husband & I got ostricized in our family because we refused to allow an emotionally abusive family (male) member be anywhere near our child. We did not want her to think that kind of behaviour was OK. I have also confront physically abusive men – scary stuff. I am not so sure I would be able to do it now that I am a mother. And with those kinds of volatile relationships it is almost impossible to get through to the woman as they are more often than not always likely to stand by their man – many people would rather be in a bad relationship than no relationship at all.

        Women especially are adept at wishful thinking, hoping that things will get better on their own. Women in NZ put up with an extraordinary amount of abuse – not just the Once Were Warriors Kind, but with the dismissive, cheating or verbally abusive spouse & they the dish the same out to men too.  These things have a huge impact on children and shouldn’t be overlooked just because the abuse can’t be seen.

        You should have a read of Cactus Kate’s post on emotional abuse – she expands on the point I am trying to make in fantastic details. A brilliant post, one I think everyone should read.

        As for personal responsibility – completely agree. Everyone should always be held to account for their own choices, actions & behaviour whether for crimes committed to letting themselves get in a position where they have 4 kids on $70 & want WFF – aka money earned by families like mine. 

        Education – agree but what form do you mean? For me this means targeting those children when they are little – getting them out of their homes & into Kohanga Reo or mainstream centres, working with social workers & giving them some consistency by way of genuine affection & validation. This would help them develop empathy. And if you have empathy you don’t beat & rape 5 year old girls.

        Ideally I would like all at-risk kids to be removed from care & adopted. But no one wants to adopt.Everyone wants to produce their own little clone – by IVF if necessary. And even if you do want to adopt it is HARD as it is open so you end up adopting the families. 

        Or there is fostering but again, who is going to take in a damaged 2 year or 8 year old who urinates everywhere, screams, has night terrors, hits, bites? You can’t have a child like that with other young children so we’re back to square one – how do we stop bad people from having children who grow up to be bad people?

      • Paul Rain

        I absolutely agree that in an ideal situation, all children at-risk from their families (such as they are) would be placed into foster care. However, the ‘cycle of abuse’ is more than just environmental- twin studies show much of the variance in many personality traits is explained by genetic factors. For some traits that influence psychopathological behavior, we’re talking heritability around the 50% mark. Certainly, many children who might grow up to be a danger to others can be saved, but wouldn’t it be a helluva lot smarter to ensure that those least fit to raise healthy children don’t outbreed the rest of us?

      • Paul that is interesting re heritability being around the 50% mark. That is HUGE. But where does the abuse start from? What are the triggers that start of this cycle and therefore, what are the solutions? Also are you saying that 50% of children who suffer any kind of abuse, neglect or maltreatment can’t be cured? That they are damned therefore should be written off? I would be interested to know if there is research to substantiate this based on scans of the brain or wiring?

        And how do you propose we ensure those who are the “least fit don’t outbreed the rest of us” Are you seriously talking about sterilization? If so when would it apply? From birth? What tests would need to be down?

      • Paul Rain

        This is for variability within the range for these behavioral factors; the numbers come from retrospective studies of twins, many raised in different environments, which allows correction for environmental factors. A great deal of the rest of the variation comes from a genetic * environment interaction- so someone carrying a particular genotype might turn out slightly screwed or very screwed, depending on whether he or she were raised appropriately.

        So yes, there is a lot to be said for improving the environment in which children grow up in. But high levels of similarly highly heritable traits like intelligence and conscientiousness are highly correlated with income, leadership ability, marriage stability and so on and so forth. Hence the genes to some extent make the environment.

        I don’t see sterilization as being the most appropriate solution in more than a few cases. But I would absolutely support linking the use of long-term contraception to the DPB; it’s a lot kinder than refusing to up the benefit for a long-term unemployed mother who bears additional children.

        At the other end, Singapore offers benefits to university graduates for having children; possibly not the most applicable model for New Zealand, given that we seem to be aiming to make sure every 21 year old in the country has their very own student loan debt. But if we really want to be a ‘knowledge economy’ among the likes of Japan and South Korea, something of the sort wouldn’t go amiss.

        In the future we’re likely to develop better methods of enabling people to help their children get a better start in life genetically speaking. I know several responsible women who due to their own experiences with mental illness are uncomfortable with the idea of having kids. Hopefully, with better knowledge of the causes of these illnesses, pre-implantation genetic diagnosis is going to become viable, so that they could have their own children- but with considerably reduced risk of depression and the likes.

  • Agent – I don’t know that much about child abuse or domestic violence in NZ before the 90s – but from the 90s yes, it from all accounts it appears to have been a fairly standard occurrence in this country, especially amongst all races & demographics when you take into account domestic violence, emotional abuse & sexual abuse.

    • Paul Rain

      ‘amongst all races & demographics’ if your definition of ‘amongst’ is ‘there are some incidences’ in all races & demographics, and a very high concentration among particular groups.

      • Paul how about you quit playing semantics & instead focus on the issue – what you are doing is tantamount to trolling which serves no purpose except to undermine the trauma this little girl went through & what other NZ children go through every day.

      • Paul Rain

        Why don’t you quit spouting rubbish about ‘we’ fixing ‘our’ problem, and consider solutions like ‘them’ fixing ‘their’ problem? I’m not sure how it undermines the trauma of the victim of this crime to suggest that perhaps it should be those responsible taking a good look at themselves, rather than ‘us’.

      • See Paul you are exactly the kind of person that is NOT part of the solution – you don’t come up with anything and you are not prepared to do something YOURSELF.

        I’m all for personal responsibility but unless this extends to ALL groups who commit such crimes then nothing changes. The ignorance continues, the white picket fences remain up & children continue to be abused.

        I suggest you go & read my posts again carefully, then have a look the websites of MOH, MSD & NGOs that study & work with this issue.

        You claim the moral high ground that somehow you have more knowledge on the issue than me yet who are YOU? What have you done in your life? What have you seen, experienced? Who have you helped? Have you ever helped anyone? Have you ever needed help yourself?

        And what about your family? Do your parents love each other? Have you ever witnessed verbal, physical or sexual abuse of any kind? Have you have witnessed or been dismissed, belittled, ignored, shut down? Told you are useless, worthless, fat, ugly, dumb, stupid?

        All these things can contribute to a child growing up and doing abhorrent things as they foster hurt, followed by anger, then resentment & a complete lack of empathy for those around them.

        And all these things are found in ALL races, ethnicities & demographics.

      • Paul Rain

        God, you’re right, I guess I should pitch in to help out people who are unfit to be parents, in the hope that they won’t turn their fifth child into another teenage child rapist, after screwing up every previous one, whether directly, or by standing by as another boyfriend abuses them. That’s bound to be more productive than requiring long term contraception for parents with a history of abuse.

      • Paul – I will ignore the facetious tone & respond seriously….or you could help out Jigsaw, Rape Crisis, Stop, Womens Refuge, become a social worker, help out with KidsCan, become a buddy for fatherless Dads, or become a foster parent and while doing something like this ensure you are a good husband & father.

        One child at a time is all it takes. If every decent New Zealander – ESPECIALLY MEN, took the time to do something like this then we wouldn’t have a child abuse issue.

  • Paddles83 – silly name to suit silly comments. I’m white, upper middle class, well educated & never been on a benefit in my life. I just have empathy & experience. Both of which seem foreign to you. I would loved to have been a social worker but would never have been able to prevent taking the work ‘home’ with me.

    • Steve and Monique

      Anger at the act,is still raw with us all.And yes it happens way to much in this country,and is not race biased.Sadly though some are more over represented then others,and the silence behind the crime only makes it worse.

      • Completely agree. Question is what’s the solution? This has been going on for years – nothing has changed since Delcelia Witika was killed in 1991, let alone all the other child abuse cases before then & since then

  • Steve and Monique

    Forget the excuses,he is a shitbag,will always be a shitbag,and looks like he came from a shitbag family.But we all have to now put up with the poor me excuse from mum,and hope god reforms me from him.Fuck if he wants God to help him,I am sure we can arrange a meeting.The PC bullshit brigade will have a ball with this one.So before they forget,this was a 5 year old girl,who will live with what has happened for the rest of her life. And we cant check because she has gone back to her own country.Out of sight,out of mind.HOPE NOT. Put him in General population,and see what happens then.

    • And how will you prevent another 30 children being abused, neglected, raped, beaten, neglected & maltreated today, tomorrow, the next day & the day after that?

      • Thorn

        If you had a budget of $40B, and a multiparty commitment to your strategy make child-abuse history in NZ within 10 years, what would you do?

      • Thorn – you extend what is already being done (see CYF’s why you should care report – & look seriously at the ideas I listed below…basically anything & everything that translates into zero tolerance, maximum punishment & rehabiliation. 

        At the moment rehabilitation for under 20s is non existent. Unless we keep these kids in our prisons for life they will continue to be our ‘enemies’ & a drag on society & a threat to us, our families & our children.

      • Agent BallSack

        CYFS is a toothless organisation. How many kids do we hear “…the family was known to child services”? Didn’t work when it was Social Welfare homes and only works slightly better now. An adopted family member suffered through hell at the hands of supposed child carers and remains scarred to this day. I respect what you say about kids needing help but agree with the majority, before we make it ‘our’ problem, how about we make it the responsibility of the individual first? As in the inter-generational welfare parent individuals.

      • Agent if the majority were right/had all the answers then why is our child abuse & maltreatment record so high?

        Everyone spouts personal responsibility – including me, but apart from ensuring we have a welfare system that encourages it, how do we get people inclined to abuse children to keep their legs shut? We might spout throw away comments about sterilization etc but we all know in a PC world that is never going to be a reality so what is your solution?

        Disagreements with me on here are irrelevant – I am one person who advocates for these children, who has taken the time to understand the issue and who has personal experience with it. 

        But at least I purport to have some substance behind my views – views which are backed up by others who work closely in this area.

        From what I have read above few have offered anything other than a rant & advocation of taking the law into their own hands. That’s not a solution – it doesn’t protect the 30 children that will be abused, neglected and maltreated tomorrow (today is too late).

        If NZers want to see real change then we have to take responsibility for this issue as a whole. We have to be prepared to vote for a non PC govt & to be involved personally in whatever form we can.

        CYFS is not toothless – the supply exceeds demand.

        We need to be holding individuals, neighbours, communities, iwi to account & be prepared to donate, adopt, foster & volunteer.

        And I am not sure how individual responsibility on its own would even work – take the Turangi boy. We could put him in prison for life – fine. Problem solved. Individual responsibility has been forced by the law.

        But what about his siblings who might be younger & yet to commit a crime or get caught (bet he has a few siblings too) – take them off his mother? Imprison her for being crap? Where do the children go? To other screwed up family members? Then imprison them? what then? Who is going to put their hand up to care for them?

        Or do you just want to sterilize any potential at-risk child at birth then increase our taxes & increase the sentencing and sentence every single person who so much flicks their child’s ear or raises their voice into prison for life? If so how long do you think the economy will last? 

        Child abuse is extremely costly, but life sentences (as in life life) is more so. Plus people don’t want prisons built next to them so where would the go?

        But this is a 2 fold issue – this Turangi boy would undoubtedly have suffered physical & sexual abuse. So how do we stop sexual abuse that goes on behind closed doors & is grossly underreported? How do we stop men from molesting & raping girls & boys, women & men when it spans over all races, cultures & demographics?

        Oh well at least we all care enough to take the time to comment – better than silence!

  • Steve and Monique

    Sadly there is no right answer to this one.Do you remove the at risk.Do you start educating family values at an early age.Do you convict the family members,who remain silent.There are numerous options that could work.But none seem to be helping so far.Could it be that having children is to easy for anyone in this country.Seems like it is harder to adopt a dog then to have kids. I know I will bring my child up in a loving,caring environment,and I hope he never has to suffer abuse of this kind.And yes I have no problem reporting this behaviour,be it family,friend,or stranger.If you have the solution feel free to give it a go.Hell something needs to work.

    • I think you try to do it all & do it well….

      1) remove the children most at risk where possible (but then where do they go – to other screwed up family members? There’s a shortage on foster parents)

      2) you put stops in that prevent misuse of the benefit – direct credits, payment cards with a ban on anything other than essentials

      3) you convict those who know but keep quiet, you push & push narking as an attribute

      4)you put curfews on the families so if they do manage to sneak out for booze you can lock them up for the night if they are late back (7pm!).

      5) you increase the prison sentences & including for those that are the pathway to this kind of behaviour – make the first offense 10 years no parole.

      Yes incredibly it is far easier to adopt a dog & often animal abuse gets a tougher sentence (proportionately) than those who hurt children.

      One of the things I really despise about this country is that get all up & arms about animal abuse (look at the popularity of Paw Justice on FB) yet child abuse gets bugger all attention.

      The reality is if we prevent child abuse we solve almost ALL social ills.

      • Anonymous

        Your ideas are good but, prior to this post, your delivery falls flat. We are not here to be told what to do or lectured by an anonymous internet poster who comes across as condescending. You are clearly passionate about this cause – good for you. Don’t ram it down our throats. Go hire a bus and go on a deprivation road trip and tell the people that need to hear it. 

      • Steve and Monique

        Well thought out.Removing the at risk,or stop the at risk having Kids. Adoption of said offspring,to parents who are vetted,and checked,and have checks in place that ensure the childs safety.I was adopted,and had a caring loving family,and apart from my own quirks have turned out ok.I dont think that we will have the time or space to fully give this subject the respect it deserves,in this forum.So maybe we should set up a something along the lines of Paws for Kids.Then hopefully it might bring the subject to the light of day rather then behind the closed doors that seem present now.Keep up the good work.

      • Sarrs – wow multiple personality. 
        So what you are saying is that you want to be able to come on here & rant & yell losers, death to them all, string them up etc & then turn off your PC & go back to your lovely white picket lives?Sorry blogging doesn’t work like that. Whale posted a great article and being passionate about this issue – as a mother & an advocate (funny none of you have asked how I have time to come on here – she’s on holiday!) I treated the comments above with the respect they deserved.

        If you come across as a vigilante moron then I will respond in kind. If that makes me condescending then so be it – this issue is far too important to be dominated by remarks that achieve nothing other than the satisfaction of obtaining some kind of revenge.

      • Sarrs

        @ Unso
        I wasn’t insulting you so no need to be offended.

        How many words have you posted on here today? Your message has been lost in words. I think you’ll see that I don’t come here to rant or rave or be a vigilante. I can see you’re getting frustrated because you aren’t getting the level of engagement that you want.   

        You have a great message – you are ruining it with your delivery and your platform. Why not ask WO if you can guest post? Or start a blog of your own? You seem very proactive and motivated and, frankly, you are wasting your time in the comments section here when you could be finding a delivery strategy for your message that works. With your obvious enthusiasm and motivation I’m sure it won’t be long until you find a way to do it. You are taking too much time to explain yourself to other commenters and one of WO’s top tips is that if you’re explaining, you’re losing. 

        Don’t take offence at this – that’s not how it was intended. But think of the time you’ve spent on here today and then think how much better your time could have been spent delivering your message in another way. Engaging with 5 or 6 commenters here isn’t the delivery that your messages needs or deserves. Go be great and keep us updated with your progress. 

      • Sarrs – far better to comment on gsomething with the most traffic. 

        I don’t offend, I respond in kind to insults & patronizing remarks from armchair critics 

        My message is only lost if the reader chooses not to take the time. I figure those who are as passionate about this issue as I am would take the time & respond in kind with constructive alternatives.

        Re your kind suggestion “think of the time you’ve spent on here today and then think how much better your time could have been spent delivering your message in another way”

        Don’t you think this is an example of the silent majorityI have referred to earlier, passing the buck? 

        Kind of you to also be concerned that I am wasting a couple of hours of my rare child free hours….

        And since you imply this is a waste of time – which it is as it makes no difference to those at risk right now – why is it ok for you to waste your time & me not mine? Why is it you expect me to go out and actively do something more while you sit on your laurels? Why is this issue always everyone else’s problem and not yours? Why is it you’re prepared to risk the life of your child/ren or future child/ren on the hope that people like me will do something to resolve these issues?

  • EX Navy Greg

    I have a solution. Anyone covicted of child abuse should be impisoned , and sterized. That way they are punished for their crime, and stopped from breeding more victims.It’s a start.

    • Steve and Monique

      Could be onto something there.Two birds with one stone.

    • Agent BallSack

      Repeat child sex offenders and repeat rapists should be surgically sterilized. Add to that instant preventative detention for any sexually violent crime, the onus should be on the offender to prove they deserve another chance, not a finite sentence where we have no choice but to let violent and dangerous offenders back into society.

      • Shouldn’t once a cheat always a cheat mentality apply so first offense castration? Why stop at sterilization? Wouldn’t it be better to chop off what was used in the offense? What about the women who sexually abuse (remember Lily bing)? Chop their breasts off or do you think hands would suffice?

      • Agent BallSack

        Women sex offenders are still vary rare in NZ, and in their case treatment is more effective than men who sexually offend. While women do occasionally sexually offend, I bet the recidivism rate is way lower – perhaps on their second offence we can remove the ovaries and frontal lobotomy? Just kidding about the latter, just!

      • Recidivism rate lower – except for Lilybings Aunties of course who boasted about how they had not been rehabilitated.

        And some days I am just inclined to say to hell with anyone who harms any child in any way – no need for surgery as that’s more taxpayer $ down the drain. Just line them up & shoot them. Problem solved & far cheaper in the long run. Hell like I said above, if I saw someone harming my child there’d be no stopping me. But would it work? America has the death penalty yet the crime rate is the worst in the world (I think?).

      • Paul Rain

        With 4.8 murders per 100,000 people, it’s a long way off Jamaica’s 52 or Hondruas’s 78.

        Red China also has the death penalty, and it’s not exactly the crime capital of the world. Japan doesn’t, and its rate is even lower. But then, Japan’s full of the kind of people who can go through a national disaster without being compelled to loot from each other.

    • Paul Rain

      Unfortunately, this sort of thing gets branded with the ‘Nazi’ label by the media. Interesting, that only policies without a hope of working here get that sweet Scandinavian fluffy-bunny badge, when compulsory sterilization was a common occurrence in Norway and Sweden until fairly recently.

      • Thorn

        One way or the other it comes down to extincting evil behaviours. BTW, we have all benefited from inventions during the Nazi era. 

      • Agent BallSack

        I agree Thorn. I couldn’t live without my gas oven and Porsche. Rests tongue firmly in cheek :)

  • kevin

    Where would you all be without  ‘The Internet’.  Certainly creates armchair experts.
    The Turangi youth offender? A vile p.o.s who has no understanding of right vs wrong and will blame anything.

    • At least we care enough to comment on the issue. My biggest concern is the silent majority who read & never comment. 

      • EX Navy Greg

        Agreed Unsolitedious,My “suggestion” above is way out there, but needs to be considered as a possible option, I thought it was still done in scandinavian countries. Good on you for bieng passionate about this issue.

      • Thanks & I agree – it’s not like NZ has an abundance of solutions for the issue.

        Sad thing is that this debate – while interesting (and a huge time waster for me – one childfree afternoon gone thanks to the internet) achieves nothing. In fact I feel that nothing seems to make a difference – so many people have invested everything they have on this issue yet still it gets worse.

        Guess we can just be thankful that for us, the second we walk away from our keyboard the issue leaves our lives.

      • EX Navy Greg

        It doesn’t leave us, within a week another case will be on TV news, in my house and in my face again.

      • You know what I mean – but yes so very true. 

      • Thorn

        So much to bear on your shoulders. If only you had the words to move them to think like you what a wonderful world this could be. Pass more laws, you would like that.  

  • Super Guest

    Don’t make this into a racial issue, guys. He’s an asshole who’d be of better use to everyone with a bullet between his eyes, and that’s it.

    • Paul Rain

      Yeah, at least in New Zealand it’s only his family sticking up for him- not what you’d see in the States.

  • Bob

    What are the sentencing options? Can be be sentenced as an adult?

    Will this be a ‘first’ strike? I predict that at some stage he will end up with three strikes…


    • Super Guest

      Probably. Paedophile’s cannot be fixed.

    • I think he will be tried as an adult as the crime is just so horrific & it is involving tourists – Bailey Junior Kurariki was wasn’t he (Michael Choy) and wasnt the boy who killed the cop in Palmerston North & the youngest boy in the RSA murders?

      • t…

        Kurariki served 7 years for murder, got out and is back in again. Our system is pretty fucking awesome, isn’t it?

  • Lofty

    For crimes this heinous life imprisonment is the appropriate response. At least there would be no chance of recidivism, and hand-wringers like unsol would not have to wrestle with the morality of sterilization.  I would be comfortable with a more draconian response.

  • Handwringing is defined by those who get distressed & do nothing so doesn’t apply.

    Draconian response – what do you mean? Imprisonment doesn’t inflict suffering on these perpetrators so do you mean execution? Torture? And by whom? And at what stage are you prepared to apply it? As soon as any child was subjected to the known triggers for abuse, violence, molestation & rape?

    Sterilization – would you apply it to all potential & perpetrators? That would be the most effective. And how would you detect them? Scan all the brains of known pedophiles, compare them with brain scans of all male babies born & sterilize all those with the remotest similarity? What about the mothers who did such a crap job at raising these abusers, molestors & rapists? Sterilize them & any other siblings?

    Completely agree with life imprisonment for heinous crimes, but do you mean irrespective of age? Is an 8 year old a complete write off the same as a 15? Should they all be put into adult prisons & left to their own devices? Segregation is costly & takes up more room…

    And what about the bulk of perpetrators who may not commit acts quite so heinous, but are traumatic & horrific all the same – are you prepared to put them away for life too? Increase taxes? To what rate? Crime is hugely taxing on this country’s finances – child abuse alone in 2008 cost us over $600 million for 47% of the Ministry of Social Development’s budget. Are you happy to have the prisons built next to you, your family? Your school? Land suitable for prisons is finite in NZ, unless you propose buying out the abundance of dairy farms?

    • Thorn

      Our justice, police and political will sucks. We don’t get tough talk, just excuses, justifications and the willful ignorance of reality.

      Starting with our so-called justice system, Justice Jocelyn Munro verbally  kisses the accused’s backside, following Sian Elias’ catch and release practices and judicial activism leads. The Kahui case showed the police bent over backwards to accommodate the ‘tight five’s’ cultural sensitivities instead of applying one rule for all. Pita Sharples involvement in the saga muddied the water but allowable because this is a Maori thing, something Pakeha would not understand. 
      And he is right. Maori children are twice as likely to die as a result of abuse as Pakeha, and it is this cultural group that make NZ the third highest in the OECD for child mistreatment.

      For the sake of all children, lets get draconian.A cheap solution is to export these criminals as convict labour to China. What I am saying, we are failing to protect our children by applying first world standards in a third world environment. 

      I don’t believe in hand wringing. I support the right of any victim to exact full revenge of their tormentor. Our so-called justice system and its agencies are more focused on keeping us sheep docile than in slaughtering the wolves. Fuck them.

    • Tristanb

      Just responding to your bit about taxes.

      Decreasing crime by locking up offenders is one thing I’d be happy to pay more tax for. Locking someone up ensures they do not return to their homes to wreak havoc on their families and neighbourhoods, it also means they’ll impregnate fewer women.

      People always forget the cost of prison isn’t that much, compared to the cost of crime. I’d happily have my tax increased by 5% if I knew that anyone who’d be incline to randomly assault me in the street would be put away for 20 years, and that sex offenders are not back on the streets waiting to harm others.

      Crimes usually start small. We really do need to properly punish people for things that are unacceptable. It is unacceptable to beat someone else up. Those people need to be kept away from the rest of us.

      It won’t work instantly to reduce crime, but eventually it would.

      • I agree – I’d happily pay more in taxes but for a multi-pronged approach whereby we have tougher sentencing combined with preventative policies. 

        At the moment everything is just reaction. I don’t want to see my child get hurt before changes are made. I want to see a zero tolerance for any kind of abuse or neglect of a child, a massive push to get sexual abuse out in the open, & small offenses like tagging, petty theft, truancy etc taken very seriously. 

        I also want any bullying in school to be addressed with the policy & family group conferences – if there was an assault for the kids to be charged, arrested & locked up for a few nights…a tough love kind of approach so that they can get the idea that if they continue with this kind of life that will be the outcome. The followed up with counselling, the parents being hauled over the coals to sort their crap out etc.

        There is no silver bullet so for anything to change, for NZ to stop being a society that tolerates the abuse of children who grow up to beat & rape a 5 year old we have to have tough sentencing combined with very early intervention.

      • EX Navy Greg

        Unso, May I call you unso, your name is harder to spell than “corrugated iron” As a small boy I was abused for years by the next door neighbour and I’m guessing thats where you are coming from too. I did not grow up to be an abuser, same as you. I firmly believe harsh penalties are the first step. The first time a child abuser is sent to prison for 30 years with no parole, that will have an impact in society and it may make one person think twice before they offend. If it only stops one little girl , or boy being abused , then it is WORTH IT.
        I am enjoying your posts, good job, G.

  • t…..

    This is what we can do. We can petition Judge Jocelyn Munro and tell her that we want a crime of this magnitude dealt with in the District court, not youth court. Whereby he should receive the maximum jail sentence as an adult.

    Who’s in?

  • EX Navy Greg

    Indictable offense punishable my more than two years imprisonment means high court. I’m in , where do I sign?

  • Wayne

    Prison is a sticky plaster as is vigilantism or even the death penalty.
    It may take care of this one boy but it doesn’t reduce the extraordinary
    harm & trauma he has put that precious wee girl & her family
    through AND it doesn’t stop more kids growing up doing the same.

    You miss the point entirely. Even if hanging this motherfucker did not deter one single event like this in future, that is not the point.

    Punishment is not just about deterrance. It is, or should be, an expression of societies outrage ot the most horrendous of crimes.

    A society that experiences this sort of evil, shrugs its shoulders, pats the offender on the back, and tells him alls well as long as he writes a nice letter, is on the sliding slope to amorality itself.

    If society does not feel a sense of outrage over a crime such as this, does not demand punishment which is an expression of this outrage, then that society condones this sort of shit.

    • No I think it is you that has missed the point. There is no argument on tough sentencing etc, but I am not prepared to wait until some survivor of abuse grows up and beats & rapes my child. I want tough sentencing AND preventative work so that NZ is no longer a country that tolerates any kind of abuse.

      Punishment on its on is not enough. It is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and would never save the little girl in Turangi.

      America has extremely tough sentences yet they still commit the crimes.

      If you allow the harm of young children then you will always have people commit the crime. They are not rationale so a so-called deterrent for the average well-adjusted individual means nothing to someone who has only ever known violence, abuse, neglect & maltreatment. They do not have the wiring to comprehend cause & effect.