Getting in our own way

Paul Holmes kicked up a stink last week and he will probably get in trouble this week too. But he does raise an interesting supposition..that we get in our own way:

I ran into an American who’s lived here most of this decade. In fact he’s become a citizen. He said to me, out of the blue, “New Zealand tends to get in its own way, doesn’t it?” And I understood him and I agree with him. We all do it, I think, Maori included. I just think that instead of shouting and ranting with bitterness and resentment, which is what Waitangi seems to so many of us to be at the moment, we should work together to get jobs and a better attitude to schooling and to diet. These things are hard to make progress on, of course, but we’ve got to work together because we’re in this together. We’ve got to look after each other. Heaven knows we have on millions of occasions so far and there’s nowhere else for many of us to call home.


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  • Pharmachick

    Yes. Kiwis do “get in our own way”. Perhaps instead of bitching about the “brain drain” and why Owen Glenn lives in Monaco and the recent KEA poll showing that more Kiwis with higher Ed liver overseas and stay away longer… well perhaps us kiwis should ask ourselves what we all are willing to do and how we all are willing to behave to support an *aspirational* New Zealand … as opposed to a culture bent on the scything of poppies.

    • MrV

      I would add it’s always the ususal suspects getting in the way.

      • niggly

        The usual suspects to me are certain Left wingers, certain activists and certain politicians (I say certain because not all of course) like the whining and moaning Greens and certainly Labour. NZ life, economic prosperity and politics would be so much better if these people stopped taking the class-war and attack-politics  angle. In current form the likes of the Greens and Labour are a blight on NZ’s political landscape and nothing would make me happier than to see them all flushed down the toilet. And I say this as someone who grew up in a Labour voting household and voted these pricks for years until I took a closer look at their smear and attack modus operandi.

  • Gazzaw

    I can’t see the trend changing. Kiwis have gone on OEs since the 50s. Most went for a couple of years, pulled pints for a living, did the obligatory Kombi van tour around Europe & came home. Relatively expensive travel, high standard of NZ living compared to that of the UK & social mores dictated that. It’s different now – cheap travel, high UK wages, excellent career prospects for qualified Kiwis & the negative atmosphere that pervades in NZ keeps our youngsters away from home. They earn enough to come home frequently if they wish. Best of both worlds really.

    I’ve just related what has happened in our family but it’s all too typical of so many friends & colleagues. The hard fact is that NZ could become an Antipodean Ireland & lose the best of its generations to emigration.

  • Petal

    We’re a nation of talkers/complainers and not a nation of doers/achievers.  

    We nitpick everything to death.

    And if we do accidentally do something well, we even apologise for it.  

    Ask anyone who has come from overseas who has been here 6-12 months to be brutally honest with you.  You won’t like what you hear, apart from the nice country side, the clean air, safe(ish) schools and the “nice” people.

    Oh yay.

  • i don’t think the/any division is based on race..

    ..(th’ the rightwing do try to foment the race one..)

    ..i think it is a matter of class..

    ..a contrived by the elites.. their own advantage..

    ..(here george carlin does a tidy summary of the situation..)

    “I d like to talk about the things that brings us together.

    Things that point out our similarities instead of our differences

    coz that’s all you will be hearing about in this country are differences,

    that all the media, the poli -tic- icans are talking about , the things

    that separate us, things that make us different from one another.

    That’s the way the ruling class operates in any society.

    They try to divide the rest of the people;

    they keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other;

    so that they, the rich, can run off with all the f*cking money (bailout),

    fairly simple thing happens to work.

    You know anything different that’s what they gonna talk about:

    race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status

    sexuality, anything that they can do to keep us fighting with each other,

    so that they can keep goin’ to the bank.

    You know how I describe the economic and social classes in this country :

    the upper-class keeps all of the money pays none of the taxes

    the middleclass pays all of the taxes and does all of the work

    the poor are there to just to scare the shit out of the middleclass –

    – to keep ‘em showin’ up at those jobs

    SO stirrin’ up the shit is something Id like to do from time to time”

    George Carlin “The Ruling Class”

    (and of course..if you are rightwing..and anything other than filthy-rich.. also are one of the

    (yr beliefs being played by the their direct advantage..)

    how can you not be..?..)

    ..and all of this must be taken into consideration by those (ostensibly) rightwing intellectuals..

    ..who have the brains to see that this isn’t working..and will only get worse..

    ..and who are rethinking a more equitable version of capitalism..

    (apple..shiny on the outside..and rotton to the core..built on the backs of slaves.. the new/current posterboy for all that is wrong with the neo-lib/globalisation-model..

    ..that model so many in this forum claim to support..

    ..and as i say..unless they are filthy rich..

    ..they are actually working against their own best interests..

    [email protected]

    • Pharmachick

      Phil, you are a total ARSE. 

      Bludgers like you that live off the government, long-term, are one of the direct causes of our youngest and brightest to emigrate away for better, since higher paying jobs o/seas  don’t have to carry your deadweight.And FFS, I’m totally done with your stupid ellipsis (coupled with [your] thoroughly nonsensical prose) just grow up and take an intermediate level course in “what I did in my summer holidays” 

      •  so..which exactly of those class-assumptions do you disagree with..?

        ..and don’t get blinded by the strong..

        ..i’d hate to have to see you resorting to

        [email protected]

    • Sarrs

      Your argument makes no sense and my eyes hurt from reading it. It can’t be a class war because all the ‘elites’, people with a bit of coin in their pockets and those with higher education are the ones who leave NZ.

      National have introduced policy that directly contradicts what you are saying – reducing the amount of people eligible for WFF by a. removing the deduction of losses and b. adding back any income that is derived by a company that is at least half owned by the WFF applicant and their family – this includes ownership through a family trust. They have also removed the income tax deduction for building depreciation (including residential rental properties) and this will result in greater income tax revenues for the Govt. On top of both of those, huge resources are being applied to the IRD to not only chase capital gains tax on the sale of shares and properties but to also improve their computer system so they can more easily pick up on people rorting the system. All of those things result in the ‘elite’ being taxed more and increases their compliance cost – quite the opposite of what you are suggesting. The only class war in NZ is being waged by the left who continually label anyone with a bit of money ‘nasty’ and ‘evil’ – that kind of divisive tactic is more detrimental to our nation than anything you suggest the right are doing. 

      •  sarah/sarrs…

        yr first paragraph is just that rightwing myth..

        fact/ is our low-wage economy..

        ..that drives many to leave..

        ..and those few changes you cite no way compensate for our richest being the lowest taxes in the oecd..

        ..and the having to pay zero capital gains tax..

        ..(in america the debate is over raising their c.g.t. from 15% to thirty-something.. they pay zero..and we are short of revenue..?..well..duh..!..)

        ..and the only time i have used ‘evil’ is quoting george bernard shaw..

        as in:..’poverty is the root cause of all evil…’..

        ..and as for ‘nasty’..wouldn’t those here who are just able to fling shit fit that definition..?

        ..i know i have never used it..

        ..and i do not hate the rich..

        ..i just think they should pay their fair share..

        ..what is wrong with that..?

        ..after all..

        ..change is the only

        ..and things have to change..

        ..for the betterment of all..

        …and change they will… matter how much you scream/protest..

        [email protected]

      • Euan Rt

        you are wasting your breath sarrs. phil is obviously brain damaged. he has trouble learning or making sense most of the time. best left and not encouraged.

      • Euan Rt

        now he is talking about people paying their fair share while his hand is outstretched in take mode. what a dick you are phil. hypocrite.

      • Sarrs

        Phil – you arbitrarily called my first paragraph a ‘rightwing myth’ and proceeded to ignore the facts detailed in the second and much larger paragraph. Yes, change is the only constant and things are changing. The taxation landscape in NZ is addressing the issues that you raise yet you chose to ignore facts that don’t support your ideology. 
        In rebuttal to your ‘rightwing myth’ I will present my own personal experience with people leaving NZ. They are middle income, well educated professionals with unlimited earning potential and skills that this country needs. They are leaving because NZ does not offer them the earning opportunities that other countries do.   Your personal experience is obviously different but I strongly disagree with your ‘low-wage economy’ assertion. A beneficiary solo mum with two kids grossing $43kpa? That is not compatible with your ‘low-wage economy’ assertion yet it is the reality of life in NZ. 

    • James Gray

      +++LOAD OF RUBBISH+++




      “And quardle, oodle, aardle, wardle, doodle, the magpies said”


      [email protected] STUNTS INC.

  • Hakim of phut

    Interesting how Holmes has become such a rabid right winger, once he seemed to be liberal – middle of the road.
    I presume  its the influence of his current wife, who seems to be a Queen Frederika type – an arch reactionary

    • Euan Rt

      No not his wife phut (I enjoy calling you that, sounds really derogatory;-), as I was saying not his wifes’ influence, rather the left losing touch more and more and drifting into oblivion. Holmes is still liberal middle, it is you who have moved.

  • jay cee

    hes just become satisfied with his life style and affluence and like most people in his position feels the need to lecture the peasants on how they should live their lives.but i agree with petal we kiwis can be over sensitive to criticism so that anyone who may have a valid point to make
    soon learns to shut up. 

    • Stevo

      I disagree. He, unlike most of us, can now afford to speak what he thinks even if it upsets the sorry, bludgeing chip on the shoulder type. Can anyone give figures that deny most New Zealanders think this way?  

      • Stevo

        ps. A Hikoi doesn’t work.

  • holmes has been one of the most successful acceptable-gatekeepers..

    he has been very well-rewarded for entertaing/distracting the masses/promoting the agenda of the 1%/ never asking any/the hard questions..

    if anything he has over-delivered for them…

    ..and in doing so..

    ..has become one of them..

    [email protected]

    • Stevo


      • for/about what..?

        what are you questioning..?

        [email protected]

      • Sarrs

        Phil – I think Stevo is asking for facts that back up your assertions regarding Paul Holmes and him being ‘…
        very well-rewarded for entertaing/distracting the masses/promoting the agenda of the 1%/ never asking any/the hard questions’ because that’s actually almost a slanderous comment given Paul is a journalist (yes, I do use that word lightly) and his integrity is an integral part of his ability to earn. 

        You assert this as fact – you haven’t even hidden your accusation in the guise of a question. Surely you must have proof that Paul Holmes accepts payment to promote right wing propaganda for ‘the 1%’ – perhaps a payslip or and IR3 or even an IR538 – to be able to make that assertion?

    • Sarrs

      *GASP* one of ‘them’ – I recoil in horror at your vague assertion. Gosh darn it, now Phil has figured out our master plan to record subliminal messages and splice them into Holmes show pieces so that 15 years later the voting public, whose responsible parents made them watch the show, are rampant right wingers. Now we’ll have to find another way to mastermind world domination. 

      • Stevo

        Thanks Sarss’ phil only allows  a ‘like’ 

      •  sarah/sarr’s..why don’t you google the term i used to describe holmes..and his role/record in the media..

        the term is/was ‘aceptable gatekeeper’..

        then get back to me and tell me how that is not him…

        [email protected]

      • Sarrs

        Phil – you cast aspersions over someone’s credibility, imply that they accept money in return for using their position in the national media to promote the ‘the agenda of the 1%’ and fail to back it up with anything that resembles evidence. You didn’t just call him an ‘acceptable gatekeeper’ and that’s not the part of your statement that I challenged. 

        Also, every single reference to an ‘acceptable gatekeeper’ published in the NZ domain comes from you! When searching the entire web, the references relate primarily to suicide prevention and education – not politics (except where you’ve used it) so please, link to a site that makes your point – preferably not one authored by you. 

  • MrV

    It starts with the education system I think.

    •  (reply to sarah/sarrs..)

      “..A gatekeeper is a person who controls access to something, for example via a city gate. In the late 20th century the term came into metaphorical use, referring to individuals who decide whether a given message will be distributed by a mass medium…”

      wikipedia has a page that should help you get started..

      [email protected]

  • titanuranus

    The country is fucked precisely because of fuckwits like our own resident PU who feel entitled to what you and I earn without offering anything to society themselves.
    Useless cunts that would never survive outside of any western culture.

    •  whew..!..i never realised i held such power in the palm of my hands there..tit…

      ..and really..i’d have thought the greedy parasitic elites who cynically piled into that sth canterbury finance govt-guarantee to the tune of more than has been paid out in all treaty-settlements..

      ..are the ones who ‘..who feel entitled to what you and I earn without offering anything to society themselves.’..


      ..that it is actually the likes of them…pillars of society all..

      ..who deserve the designation of ‘useless frontbum’…eh..?

      ..parasites/leeches all..

      [email protected]

      • Guest

        I think where people end up at odds with your posts is when you make statements like “…who feel entitled to what you and I earn…”

        As a serial beneficiary you do not earn. You are state fed. Your lifestyle that is a chosen one does not entitle you to comment on anything. You opted out of mainstream Phil. Your comments regarding parasites and leeches signifies you as one thing…A hypocrite!

      • Euan Rt

        Not only state fed. He is a parasite, a leech. He is sucking up the goodness of this country he claims to be defending. He claims to care and he doesn’t even realise he is a major part of the problem. 

      • titanuranus

        There is only one thing you hold in your hand phil, and obviously you can hit the keyboard with the other.

    •  reply to sarah/sarrs..

      sarah..i am also a gatekeeper.. that i sift through a large amount of decide which stories/links i will feature each day…

      ..but the ‘acceptable gatekeepers’ are those who have got thru the filtering processes of the media-owners/editors etc….

      ..and who therefor front/are the media-face/voice of that organisation..

      ..holmes is not alone..campbell is also..

      ..and the messages you are getting from/thru them have already been thru five different filters…

      ..the message is totally massaged and censored…

      ..and there are stories they won’t go near/you will never hear..

      ..the/a classic one is the study at auck uni into the health benefits of dairy/cheese..

      ..funded by fonterra

      ..that had to be halted..because the subjects were suffering measurable harmful effects from the ‘product’..

      ..and despite that proof of the ill-health effects of that product..fonterra still peddles the poisonous muck..

      ..and our mainstream media would never cover that story..(they haven’t..!..)

      ..because of possible ‘economic-damage’ to the country..

      ..that over-rules publicising the reasons for our world-beating rates of some cancers/diseases/diabetes..

      ..i hope that helps you understand how much the messages you receive are so managed/gate-kept..

      gatekeepers are not whistle blowers…eh..?

      [email protected]

  • Chris

     phillip ure your a fuckwit fuck off !

    •  is that all you have to offer there..?..chris..?..choleric-rage..?

      ..and guest..i guess you view sole-parents raising the next generation… ‘parasites and leeches’..?

      ..and that sole-parents..are automatically excluded from having a voice in any political discourse.. this what you are advocating..?

       ..btw..i note that none of you have questioned the case made by carlin…’s pretty

      [email protected]

    • Mr_Blobby

      I concur Phillip is a fuckwit and a waste of space and time. Look at how much of your collective time he has wasted here.

  • guest said..I think where people end up at odds with your posts is when you make
    statements like “…who feel entitled to what you and I earn…”

    do you know what speech marks are..?

    ..what they signify..? in authorship..?

    [email protected]

  • Gazzaw

    Phil effectively closes down a thread as far as I’m concerned. Life’s too short to be scrolling through miles of meaningless dope fuelled nonense.

    I wish WO would sent him the way of GWW.

  • Sarrs

    Phil – if you’re still reading this your commitment to this thread is admirable. While I don’t entirely disagree that Paul Holmes has been in the position of ‘acceptable gatekeeper’ in the past, I still take issue with your unfounded accusation that he abused that position for the benefit of ‘the 1%’ and was monetarily compensated for it. That is the part of your statement that I have questioned, not the label you put on Mr Holmes. Call him whatever you like but to suggest that his integrity is fundamentally flawed is ridiculous, especially when you still have no evidence to post here to back it up.