Time to take on the public sector unions

One News had a story last night about the relevance of unions. This graphic tells the tale:

As far as the private sector is concerned unions are meaningless…except for 8.8% of the population. There is still a massive problem in the state sector though and that is where the government should focus its efforts in Industrial Relations reform.

The first thing to do would be to remove payroll protection for union dues. If unions want people to join then they should act like any other incorporated society and go collect their membership fees themselves instead of having employers do it for them.

The second thing to do is remove monopoly situations. If we don;t tolerate monopolies in the private sector then why should we tolerate them in the union sector. This is most apparent in the education sector where there are just three unions and each one has its own monopoly. The NZEI has a monopoly in the primary schools, the PPTa in the secondary schools and then there is the Principals union.

The state sector is lagging behind the private sector and these reforms are way overdue.

One thing for sure though, Bill Hodge is right, the union movement in the private sector is dead.

 


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  • Robt Davies

    “If we don;t tolerate monopolies in the private sector then why should we tolerate them in the union sector”

    Eh? So New Zealand has no private sector monopolies, then?

    • They get busted apart…look at Telecom, forced to split apart…we have specific laws to prevent monopoly situations in commerce. 

      • Robt Davies

        Well that’s perhaps true….although it took, what, two and a bit decades to break Telecom’s stranglehold on telco in Enzed apart….so what are the laws worth if they’re only ever glacially enforced?

      •  how about we swap mono for duo..?

        ..haven’t you seen the recently-arrived backpacking tourists in supermarkets sobbing/in shock..?

        ..as they walk down the aisles..

        ..reeling from the prices we are forced to pay…

        ..by this monopoly of two..?…

        ..how do you suggest we fix/repair that..?

        [email protected]

      • ConwayCaptain

        Phil

        Get a life.

        I was talking to two young backpackers from Cornwall in Pak n Save in Rotorua recently and they didnt think the prices were too bad.

        Remember, if you can, 2 years ago the NZD/GBP rate of exchange was NZ$= 0.35p so a $10 item in the NZ supermarket was 3.50 GBP.  Now the rate of exchange is now NZD=0.52GBP so the same item costs 5.20GBP so of course it is expensive.

        Same applies to tourists from US and the EU.

        In reverse in the UK a 10GBP item would have been NZ$35 and is now $18 or so.

        The NZ$ has remained basically the same against teh A$ and the Yen.  Reminbi (that is the correct name for the Chinese currency, the Yuan is just a unit) is pegged against the US$ so they will see cost increases as well.

        I was in the UK in 2009 and I found it V expensive and the standard of the food was CRAP.

      • Sorry Phil did I read correctly and you want me to shed a tear for some whinging fucking pom tourists?

      • Catweasel321

        What are you Whale Oil, a Socialist? Extolling the Labour Socialists imposition of over bearing government regulation to force the job creators in a private sector company to divest it and its share holders of the rightful return on their investment, all because some moaners were jealous of their success. They had equal opportunity to start a monolpoly of their own or not use the services. No one held a gun to their head and forced them to useTelecom. Its a free market if you don’t like it then leave it.
         

      • Boss Hogg

        Robt, Are you thinking of Zespri perhaps?  I think they are in for a challenging time very soon………..

  • “..the union movement in the private sector is dead…”

    ..that one – for some reason..reminds me of that claim by fukiyama proclaiming the eminence of the american empire forever..

    ..that ‘history is over’..

    ..that the current situation would prevail forever..

    ..(we all know how that one went..eh..?..)

    ..and pendulums swing…and the neo-lib is hovering at the end of the swing right..

    ..and about to come roaring back..

    ..as more people realise they are powerless alone..

    ..and that only by organising into unions/co-ops/w.h.y…

    ..can people battle the greed/exploitation of employers..

    [email protected]

    • Super_Guest

      Shut up. People clearly place no value on unionism, judging from the stats Whale posted. And why do you care, you don’t have a job anyway, you’re a mooch.

      •  i do actually have two (albeit under-paid) ‘jobs’ there s.g..

        ..one a contract with the govt. to raise a good-citizen..(that seem pretty much on track to over-deliver..)

        ..and i also run a news-aggregation webiste..

        ..where at about 5.00am 5.30 am i start link-hunting/cherry/picking..

        ..and i find/deliver 30-40 stories/links each/every day..

        ..the best from the best..

        ..while we are on the subject..what do you do to justify yr existance..?

        ..and are there areas you are automatically disqualified from ‘caring’ about there..?

        what do you ‘care’ about s.g..?..(apart from yrself..eh..?..)

        and..thanks for asking..eh..?

        [email protected]

      • James Gray

        Fuck you, Phillip, and your “contract with the govt. to raise a good-citizen” bullshit.

        The world does not owe you the opportunity to raise a child, and it is morally reprehensible of you to accept the proceeds of the robbery of others.

      • Super_Guest

        I care about raising my family, if you must know. And I don’t do it from the comfort of a government funded hammock. And I believe that the money I earn is better spent on them than on you, or any other trougher. If wanting to keep my money for myself and my family is selfish, well, fine. I’m perfectly happy to be selfish in that instance, because my kids are too young to provide for themselves and I’m perfectly happy to do it.

        And Phil, unless someone pays you in return for services rendered, you don’t have a job.

  • 13 cents above minimum-wages for those caring for our elderly/infirm.. ?

    ..seems fair..?

    [email protected]

    • Guest

      No, because NZ’s “minimum wage” is far far above anything that is economically justified.  If the min wage was near $5/hr than $15/hr you’d have a case. now you don’t.

    • grumpy

      That’s how much is left over after our blood is sucked out keeping parasites like you in our cash.

    • ChrisH4

      Isn’t the DPB about $5 an hour??

      So why do left leaning people argue that the minimum wage at $13.50 is too low to be a living wage – when it seems people are quite happy to live on 40% of what they could earn if they worked??

      And if we are paying 350,000 people something like $5 per hour to do nothing – wouldn’t paying them say $7.50 for unskilled (as otherwise they would be working) labour give them a 50% increase in their standard of living??

  • ConwayCaptain

    There is a price difference between the supermarkets.  My local is Countdown and I find it expensive as the have a local monopoly.

    Every 6 weeks or so I drive to Rotorua and shop at Pak n Save which is a lot cheaper.  I have shopped at New World, part of the same group and their prices are higher than PnS and also Cdown.

    •  ok then..we’ll just ignore all the recent international comparison-stats…

      ..showing just how high the prices we..in our low-wage economy..

      ..are forced to pay..(thru lack of any real competition..)

      ..and rely on yr anecdotal from 2009..

      ..shall we..?

      [email protected]

      • Sarrs

        Phil – you only ever post anecdotal evidence so why criticise someone else when they do it? Post your international comparison stats here – hardly anyone from this site is going to go to your blog because they don’t want to give you the traffic. Come on Phil – back it up. Bring some evidence to the table – you already know that you have no personal or professional credibility here (if you did, people would be nicer to you) so why don’t you back up your statements with evidence and at least attempt to gain some modicum of credibility back?

      • ConwayCaptain

        Why dont you go and open a supermarket!!!!!!!

        The Warehouse with a;ll their power behind them tried and came a cropper, wonder why???

        If you think it is bad here Phil think of the poor bastards in Greece, Spain, Portugal,Ireland and Italy that have been shafted by their own Govts.

        In Aus there are now doubts about the survival of the Aus motor industry, GMH make as many cars pa as some of the o’seas manufacturers make in 2 days!!!!  Aus if it didnt have the minerals would be on the bones of its arse and so would we.

        The problem we have here in NZ as they do in the UK and other countries with a so called “social welfare mentality” is the number of people sucking on the Govts read taxpayers tit.  25% of the people in this country are negative tax payers and we cant go on like this.

      • Vij

        He can’t ConwayCaptain, because no one will lend him the money to open a supermarket. He only know to take, and then is the expert on everything

      • ChrisH4

        Anecdotal 2009… well, I was in the UK in 2010 and I “anecdotally” didn’t think it was too expensive – as our currency was higher than it had been previous times I was there.

        And just the other week I saw a survey that showed living in London was now no more expensive than living here in Wellington, which is a major change – as London used to be one of the most expensive cities in the world.

        Now of course tourists do think we’re expensive – but all that is simply exchange rates in action, and prices relative to other countries fluctuate with exchange rates.

  • Gazzaw

    I guess that MUNZ, EPMU, Unite & whoever the freezing workers union is form the bulk of the remaining 8.8%. No wonder Kelly has now fronted in the POAL & AFFCo disputes. The CTU’s credibility will be fucked if those disputes do not go their way. The EPMU seems to be pretty well heeled though – saw the latest Honda sports hatch in EPMU colours on Friday. Unfortunately the female driver wasn’t up to the mark, definitely not Jeremy Clarkson material.  More Darien Fenton.

  • i take it you fancy jeremy clarkson there..gazzaw…

    ..have you had this hard-spot for braying/pot-bellied/elderly-tories for long..?

    [email protected]

    • Gazzaw

      Fuck off Phil. You’re not worth the effort.

  • Sarrs

    Unions need to have a different focus in this day and age. They are still helping the same people they were helping 30 years ago and ignoring the fact that changes in social attitudes means meat workers/dock workers etc aren’t the ones that need advocacy. Kids who work in bars/restaurants – get shit hours, shit pay and treated like shit. Why aren’t the Unions breaking their backs to help them? Or shed hands on dairy farms whose bosses make them work ridiculous hours and exploit their fear or ignorance of the law to keep them docile. It does happen so why aren’t the Unions helping those people?
    I can give you at least one reason – Union membership is too expensive for those workers. $1,200 a year when you’re stuck on part time hours in a minimum wage job? Give me a break, no one’s signing up for that. Why would they even have faith in unions – Unite (I believe set up to advocate for youth worker rights) rips off the IRD, folds, and no one gets any decent advocacy.  

    •  sarah/sarrs..

      fact/reality-checks….unite helps bar-workers/lowest-paid/most exploited etc..

      ..farmers have always exploited their workers..

      ..(their business model is built on cruelties to animals..and screwing their workers..)

      ..and they would not hire a union-member…

      ..so..you admit that these workers..are exploited/powerless..

      ..but you are opposed to what could change that for the better for them..?

      ..isn’t that a bit of a ‘disconnect’..you have going on there..?

      [email protected]

      •  sarah/sarrs..above you asked me to provide/post evidence backing what i say..

        ..i would..as i have a cache for all..

        ..but the policy of this blog is that commenters are not permitted to post links..

        ..so..y’know..!

        [email protected]

      • Sarrs

        Phil – Unite helps no one. People won’t join a Union that is defunct. 
        Yes, people are exploited but I was merely pointing out that the way the unions currently operate doesn’t help the people that are exploited. No one can say that someone in the PSA is exploited, nor MUNZ workers at POAL. 

        Unions are still operating the way they did 30 years ago – they need to move with the times. How convenient of you to suggest that I am against changes that could help them – where did you get that from? I certainly didn’t say anything remotely like that. The unions are the ones opposed to change. Why are they spending their time and resources advocating for people who don’t need it when there are plenty out there either too scared or ignorant to ask for help? Answer me that Phil. 

      • Sarrs

        Also Phil – no one has any problems with you linking to an independent source of information. Other news sites, government sites etc. The problem is when you link to your own blog that is your opinion, rather than fact. 

      • Swifty

        Test

      • In Vino Veritas

        Farmers have always exploited workers? And where does that come from? When was the last time you worked on a farm Phil? Cruelty to animals indeed.
        No worker is powerless Phil, their labour is mobile. Workers are only exploited if they allow themselves to be.

      • Snrg30

         Hey Phil

        ..you are..

        ..a total knob..

        ..got it..?

        ………..

        ..hahahahahaha

      • Grizz30

        ..farmers have always exploited their workers..

        What farm have you worked on lately. I know farm workers who have been employed on the same farm for the last 20 years. There are not many jobs that come with free rent and housing. In the main, most are not asked to do what the farm owner would not do.

        Humans eating animals for food is a contentious issue for some. However most will agree that ensuring sheep have plenty of grass and winter feed, a regular hair cut, vaccinations and a good crutching of the dag ends is hardly being cruel.

    • Guest

      Unions are Rorts for bludging scum.   The sooner unionism is banned in NZ, the better.

  • Phar Lap

     I have always thought that there is a place for responsible unions,if not why not.Probably when they get power crazy, all the good they have done seems to be undermined.At the moment in NZ the unions on strike ,or rather the union bosses,  who call out their members, are out of touch with the rank and file.Surely after seeing the destruction the unions have caused in Greece ,with little reward,are NZ union bosses blind to the outcome or are they bloody minded and self centred meglamaniacs.

  • sarah/sarrs..whoar is not an ‘opinion-site’..

    ..it has over 50,000 links to facts..

    ..and it is where my information/facts are..

    ..if you fear infection/contamination..

    ..can i suggest you try google..

    ..(and hey..!..be careful tho’..!..google might just send you to me..

    ..eh..?..)

    [email protected]

    • Sarrs

      Phil – you’re not seeing the point. You can’t post links to your own blog because WO is not here to direct traffic to you. No one on here, no matter how desperate they are for information, is going to your blog. Most people on here, including me, are capable of independent research and exercise that capability. If you want to make a valid and salient  point you should include a link to evidence in your comment – especially if you already have that link on hand, just copy and paste it in. Although the more I see of your commenting and rambling, the more I feel you aren’t interested in making valid or salient points – you’re just here posturing and trying to direct traffic to your own blog. Hell, you’re not even interested in trying to rescue your credibility so straight away that tells me you have no respect for the rest of us. 

      • In Vino Veritas

        Sarrs, I suspect Phil does see the point but just can’t be bothered accepting the reality of it. He is very similar to most of the people at the Standard, who have plenty to say, and because they say it, it must therefore be true.

  • Euan Rt

    I’ve just collapsed all phils comments and responses to him and am left with 6 from 22 comments. Time to reclaim your blog whale and excise this menace.

    •  you prefer a blog to be an ideological-crcle-jerk..?

      ..where all nod in unison..

      ..(or are you scared of idea-infection..as well as everything else..?)

      ..can i suggest you hunt down redbaiter..?

      ..in his little corner of the universe..

      …they do a lot of that there..

      ..so i’m told..

      [email protected]

      •  the business roundtable is another site that censors rigorously..

        ..i posted a detailed rebuttal to their recent piece of nonsense..

        ..that ‘there is no poverty in new zealand’..

        ..it has disappeared into permanent-moderation..

        ..and i must admit..that surprised me..

        ..i thought they were meant to be a think-tank..eh..?

        [email protected]

      • Sarrs

        It’s not a dissenting voice that people don’t like on here; it’s you Phil. Don’t confuse the two. 

      • There is no poverty in New Zealand. The BRT is right.

      • Bobm (ex RNZN and Angry Croc)

        FFS Phil, why can’t you write a sentence that people can understand? If you are the standard for the good citizen that you are raising it seems that he/she hasn’t got a chance of making the grade.

    • Euan Rt

      I see Richard posted on another issue that people who take vexatious actions should be flogged. Would be appropriate in this case too.

    • Vij

      Totally agree

  • ConwayCaptain

    I wonder if Phil can remember the Glory Days of the 70’s with the Unions.

    We had 60% income tax which was paid at quite a loew threshold, we had import licensing which shoved the price of goods very high, protectionism which did likewise.  We had Supplementary Minimum Price for the farmers whereby we had mountains of frozen meat and butter which we sold to the Russians for a song.  They had no money so paid us in Ladas.  TVs that cost $1000+ in the 70’s poorly assembled cars that cost even more and so on and so on

    We had a revolving door policy wherby the President of the Federation of Labour had an open door to the PMs office and he seemed to spend most of his time there telling the PM what he had to do.

    We had those good unionists who all seemd to have Pommy working class accents holding up the construction of NZ Steel, Marsden Point, BNZ Tower in Welly, Mangere Bridge etc etc.  Freezing workers on strike at the drop of a hat and getting paid a damn site more that the equivalent of 90K today.  Cook Strait ferries on strike every holiday time.

    SCONZ and USSCo wanting to bring in new ships and had to “negotiate” with the seamen’s and cooks and stewards unions so the ships were overmanned there but sailed with the same or less complement as overseas ship in the deck and engineering officers depts.

    Wharfies that would stop work if there was a spot of rain etc etc.

    • Vij

      …..you wrong….

      …. never happened…..

      Sorry,  just can’t write like him and yes, i remember all of what you stated.

      • ConwayCaptain

        Vij

        I would never try and write like him.  I can never undersatnd his posts the way he writes them.

      •  harder than it looks..

        ..eh..?

        [email protected]

    • Catweasel321

      The sixties and seventies man. If you can remember them you weren’t there.

      Thats when those socialist labourites held the PM’s office for 3 (72 to 75) years out of 21 (60 to 84). I know it seemed like a decade but that was probably just the drugs.

      It was those other lefty socialist commie sympathisers Holyoake and Muldoon that must have been entertaining the FOL all that time. Thank Santorum that party ended in 84 with Rogernomics. Hoo Hah!

      $1000+ TV’s. OMG! Have you seen the price of a decent HD TV today, much more reasonable. Thats because we no longer employ those useless NZ working class freeloaders to build them anymore.

      Knowing they are instead assembled chinese itinerant labour makes oen feel proud to be part of the greatest consumer race the world has ever seen.

      A decent mainframe would set you back US$4.3 million plus and an Apple computer in 1977 $2-$3k for a pifling 1 MHz hard drive and 4 kilobytes of memory. Those unionist had a lot to answer for.

      Cell reception back then was crap too!

  • Guest

    The first thing to do would be to remove payroll protection for union dues
    No – the first thing to do would be to follow Wisconsin & Chris Christie: ban all unions.  

    The next thing to do is to follow Lucas Papademos Drop all civil service wages (and all benefits) by 50%

    Then follow the “Iron Lady” — fire anyone who ever voted Labour. 

    • Catweasel321

      Your wrong the first thing to do is ban freedom of association for people with differing opinion to our own. Its time we got back to locking up unionists our shooting them on sight. Some couragous countries like China are showing the way.
      Don’t talk to me about that pussy bleeding heart Chris Christie. He didn’t ban all unions and blatantly refuses to send them to Qitmo as the terrorists they are.

  • Swifty

    To Phil Ure.

    Phil, for several years I’ve read your comments on a number of sites with dismay, at times, and have as yet never responded to them.

    I will now and especially with reference to your ‘two-jobs’ response above.

    I must say, I find the logic in your response to Super Guest’s post today as very self-serving and fundamentally flawed. To characterise your ongoing receipt of fellow community members funds in return for raising your child as a ‘job’ is an insult to your fellow New Zealanders who fund you. It is not; it is a privileged position and one which I would hope you were making strenuous attempts to move away from – in fairness to your fellow community members and to set a good example to your child.

    I have been self-employed for 19 years and, with my partner, raise three children under 10 years old. I currently service two major clients and regularly work 60-70 hour weeks, 50 weeks a year, to ensure their needs are taken care of – and, after contributing to the country’s welfare through taxation, to obtain the funds I need to run my household and secure my children’s future. The risks I have taken in pursuit of this self-employment I characterise as extreme – but I have done so to satisfy a clear market need, and with the hope that the returns will come – financially, for reasons of personal achievement and personal satisfaction and to demonstrate good examples to my children.

    To hear you talk so smarmily about you sitting at home being paid by me and others to raise your child as ‘your job’ disturbs me. If we all felt like you and all stayed home to ‘raise our children’, where would the money come from for this? How would we fund the country? I find the logic and natural conclusion to your points deeply flawed.

    Also, with respect to your second ‘job’ that of ‘news-aggregation’. If you are suggesting that you are building a business from this service you provide – could you please tell us when you plan to reach the point where you are self-sustaining and will no longer require the funding of your countrymen and women. If you have no plan, and can give no date, then I suspect that you’re referring to a hobby, not a job.

    And you’re kidding no-one.

    Swifty

    • Blokeintakapuna

      Well said – bravo!

      Yes – far too many believe and think that breeding and having even more dependants is a “job” and even more rediculous is that some even think they are “paying taxes” from their welfare payments!

      Give us strength!

      Don’t worry about licencing dog owners – it should be compulsory for people before they are allowed to breed – and only then, they should have to pass numerous “courses” such as budgeting, growing vegetables, exercise, child welfare, responsibilities to society since society funds and supports you…

    • Vij

      Well said, maybe now he’ll go and get a real tax paying job

      • And subject some poor old boss working off the bones of their ass to support someone who would even beat kosh in the backarsed end of little actual productivity (hot air production is not what I call productive)?

    • key words from yr whole rant..

      “..and, with my partner, raise three children..”

      the rest is an exercise in self-regard/self-love..

      ..with smug used as grout…eh..?

      ..and you ‘insult’ all those parents raising children on their own..

      ..her indoors takes care of all that..

      ..does.she..?

      ..and yes..i consider a dpb to be a contract between the state and parents..

      ..and most parents in that contract…

      ..do care for/raise the next generation in a worthy manner..

      ..there are some who don’t do the job well..

      ..and they/their children need help..

      ..but the thing is with smug bigots such as yrslf..

      ..you tar all with the bad brush..

      ..and really..in effect..

      ..alsp have no respect for yr ‘partner’…eh..?

      ..and her non-job in raising the kids..eh..?

      ..and yes..i do see the news/information service i provide as fufilling a need..

      ..seeing as you asked..

      [email protected]

      • Swifty

        Phil,

        My partner works as well, nearly full time, and while the kids are at school.

        Again, if we all felt like you and all stayed home to ‘raise our children’, where would the money come from for this? How would we fund the country?

        Also, could you please tell us when you plan to reach the point where you are self-sustaining and will no longer require the funding of your countrymen and women.

        Swifty

      • Sarrs

        Phil – you always say that about people (including me) who work damned hard and do their best to stay out of the poverty/beneficiary trap. It does not make us smug. It is not an exercise in self-regard/self-love. It is a statement of fact. People who work hard to support themselves and their families have a right to be proud of that fact. 

        You seem to profoundly reject the idea that people like Swifty are good, hard working people – it seems to touch a nerve with you actually because when I shared my story the other week your reaction was exactly the same. Your claim that your ‘news/information service’ is fulfilling a need is a bit of a joke – if you were fulfilling a need as you state, you would make your information much easier to interpret. I think if anyone here is have a self-aggrandising moment it’s you – over stating your contribution to society in reaction to criticism from others. 

      • Super_Guest

        Phil, most grown-ups don’t require a “contract with the government” in order to raise kids. Most grown-ups get off their ass and get a job. Those who don’t should thank God that there’s rich people around to pay their way.

      • In Vino Veritas

        Phillip, firstly, no part of Swifty’s post could be interpreted to conclude he is a bigot, or for that matter, smug. Unlike many of your posts, he was clear and understandable, pointing to flaws he perceived in your argument logic.

        You say you consider the DPB to be a contract between the state and the parent. It would behove of you to reflect on the fact that the state is essentially the representative, or agent, of the voting public. A contract between you and the state is therefore with the voting public and it is absolutely reasonable for someone like Swifty to question you as to your motives, rationale and progress, since he is effectively funding you.

        Also, a contract implies offer, acceptance and consideration for some future outcome. Since you feel you have a contract with the voting public, we have every right to progress updates as to the “outcome” ie your side of the contract. So, are you feeding your child properly? Educating your child in a sensible manner? Providing suitable shelter and clothing? Oh, and just saying yes is no good, evidence please.

  • AnonWgtn

    Two local dairies are charging $5.50 for 2 x 2 litres of milk.
    BP are $6 for the same.

    •  question for swifty:..

      ..if you and your wife both work fulltime..

      ..what on earth do you do with them on the hols..?

      ..call in rellos..?..or whack them into all-day day-care..?

      [email protected]

      • Swifty

        Phil,

        This summer school holidays she stopped work from mid-Dec to end Jan, and for the first time in five years we took the kids out of Auckland, for two and a half weeks. Our first holiday away for all five of us. Ever.

        Again, if we all felt like you and all stayed home to ‘raise our children’, where would the money come from for this? How would we fund the country?

        Also, could you please tell us when you plan to reach the point where you are self-sustaining and will no longer require the funding of your countrymen and women?

        Swifty

  • Ciaron_A

    Threadjacked once more. Don’t feed the troll people :)

    • did you want to say something there..ciaron..?

      ..off you go..

      ..no..?

      just a wee moan..was it..?

      ..feel better..?

      [email protected]

       

      • Ciaron_A

        Yeah, I want to say it’s really shit that you manage to manipulate every thread into being about you and your bloody “news aggregator”.

        And I think unions are stupid.

        The Idea of someone batting for you is not a bad one , but from what I can see at POAL, all that is being achieved is a lot of biting the hand that feeds.

        Oh, and one last thing; your parenting contract should be between you and your kid, just like everyone else.

  • Bunswalla

    People…PEOPLE!!! Don’t you see what we’ve become? Just like Pavlov’s dog, we sit there waiting to see what nonsense Phillip Ure will utter next, so we can jump down his neck and point out the stupidity of his logic.

    BUT you can never win a battle of wits with an unarmed person! He is NEVER going to agree with any posts on this site – have you noticed how he never even agrees with anything Kosh says?

    He wants to wind us all up by himself, and so far we’ve all fallen for it. HOW COULD WE BE SO STUPID?  He (until now) has all the factors in his favour: he’s stoned, he has all the time in the world, and he has irrefutable proof that his winding-up is working a treat.

    The man is an oxygen thief, a timewaster with unlimited time, and has half a brain. He can play this game all day, every day, and we’re FALLING FOR IT.

    So it’s time to STOP the madness. The only way to get rid of this parasite, at least from the pages of this particular right-thinking blog, is to COMPLETELY IGNORE anything he posts. From this moment onwards. Resist the urge to point out his stupidity, his lack of logic, his failure to observe even the most basic rules of grammar, punctuation and common sense. IGNORE HIM.

    • Swifty

      Bunswalla,

      agreed.

      My apologies to you, Cam and everyone else for diverting from the thread topic.

      But a man can only take so much!

      Heh.

      Swifty

      •  you didn’t answer my question there..swifty..

        ..on those 3 wk band of holidays all thru the year..and esp. that long stretch over christmas..

        ..if both you and yr wife work fulltime..

        ..what do you do with yr children..?

        ..do rellos step-up..

        ..or do you put them into paid childcare for those periods…?

        ..(it is a relevant/valid question..eh..?

        ..wanna try to answer again..?..)

        [email protected]

        ..

    •  buns..you’re shouting..

      [email protected]

      • Swifty

        And you Phil have made not a single attempt to answer my original questions – now asked of you three times. I’ll repeat them for a final time:

        Again, if we all felt like you and all stayed home to ‘raise our children’, where would the money come from for this? How would we fund the country?

        Also, could you please tell us when you plan to reach the point where you are self-sustaining and will no longer require the funding of your countrymen and women?

        They’re valid questions….eh?Instead you have seen fit to level words at me including rant, smug bigot, ‘her indoors’ and that I have no respect for my children’s mother!

        You really are an odious little creep.

    • Agent BallSack

      Totally with Bunswalla on this one. Shit I read more than 50 news stories per day, I must work harder than Phil. Fuck hang on a second I also have a job and a family. 

  • you aren’t sliding away from this one swifty..(bluster/bluster/bullshit..eh..?..)

    ..’cos this gets to the nub of the matter…

    ..your silence/refusal to answer..twice..for me confirms that you have rellos/whatever who step up for you…that’s handy/helpful..eh..?

    ..which brings me to the next/nub-question..

    ..you are sitting pontificating/preaching/demeaning from a position of yr wife raising the kids..

    ..and rellos behind you to step up for those school holidays..

    ..so..let’s look at the situation of many of those sole-parents..shall we..?

    ..they don’t have two-incomes/a ‘partner’ to raise the children for them..

    ..they are doing it on their own..

    ..they don’t have relatives able to step up for all those holidays..

    ..what do you think they should do with their children during all those school holidays…?

    ..especially that long haul over xmas..

    ..all-day childcare….?

    phil-at-whoar.

    • Swifty

      Phil,

      I haven’t slid away from anything. Unlike you, who for the fourth time haven’t made any attempt to answer my questions. I assume you never will, and will just persist in making snide suppositions about matters you have no visibility of.

      Two hours ago I replied to you “This summer school holidays she stopped work from mid-Dec to end Jan” – this is what she does each school holiday, including the ones during the year. She takes care of them during the day when they are on holiday. She has no relatives in NZ and I have none in Auckland. Also, we have not ‘had them in care’ for two years.

      What about that is so hard to understand?

      Going to even attempt to answer my questions Phil?

      •  ok..so your ‘partner’ has the luxury of stopping work for all the hols..

        ..that’s handy…eh..?

        ..so..i repeat..

        ..that pesky nub-question..eh..?

        …what should those sole-parents with no partners/rellos..?

        ..what should they do with their children during those holidays your partner stops work for…?..in this ideal world of yours..?

        ..all-day childcare..?

        [email protected]

    • Boss Hogg

      Hey Phut Phut (Is that Wise man of Muffled Noises?)

      Wasn’t Your Hero(ine), Sue Bradford, once Chair Thing of the “Unemployed Workers Union”?

      Two Question,  (How does that title and organisation mean anything anway)
      1. Were you a member?
      2. How much were the fees?

      Thought I would send you a pic of me, it is a cigar, not a joint, so don’t get too excited.

  • Bunswalla

    Swifty, STOP PLAYING HIS GAME.

    It’s just a game, you see, a very one-sided game where he makes the rules and you cannot win.

    So save your breath mate, and deny him the pleasure of your response. Change the rules to be in your favour, and give him the response his empty brain deserves – nothing….

    You’ll see what a difference it makes, and you’ll know how frustrated it makes him, and then YOU WIN.

    • it’s not a game..buns..

      i am very serious..

      and may be close to a breakthru with old swifty…

      ..his answer will tell us how truthful/sincere he is being..

      ..will he concede the irrefutable logic..(if we are thinking of the children first and foremost..)

      ..or will he just fall back on insults/bluster..?

      ..let’s see..

      phil-at-whoar.

      • Swifty

        Last response from me to you Phil.

        Your mentioning of ‘irrefutable logic’ is laughable.

        I see again you’ve not made any attempt to answer my original questions. I, and every rational viewer of this post, know that you have no answer. You haven’t even tried. All you’ve done is evaded, all day.

        If everyone did the same as you we as a country would have no money to pay for anything – including transfer payments to you and irrespective of how much you bray you’re entitled to them.

        And you talk to me about logic.

  • Shit this is more protracted then Rudd vs Gillard

    To the topic at hand – I would give credit to Ruth Richardson and also the former Employment Contracts Act 1991 for causing union membership to take a bloody big belly flop.

    Seems the Public Sector Unions are still holding a bit there but then again – hard lefties much over there?

  •  why can’t you answer that simple/straightforward question..swifty..?

    ..what should they do with the kids..?..during those school holidays..?

    ..or are you just not able to see/think past yr prejudices…?

    ..does the answer..all day childcare….queer yr sanctimonious/judgemental/irrational pitch a tad..?

    ..does it..?

    ..you do know you are also coming across as a flaming hypocrite…

    ..eh..?

    ..preaching from a position of privilege..

    ..just who is the ‘odious creep’..?

    …eh swifty..?

    ..you won’t answer that question..i know that..

    ..’cos the answer shows you up for what you are..

    ..you and yr vile/dehumanising politics..

    ..any other of you sole-parent-bashers wanna have a go at answering..?

    ..it’s a simple question..

    ..what should those sole-parents do with their children…in the holidays..?

    ..all-day-childcare..?..in one of those warehouses..?

    ..eh..?

    phil-at-whoar.

    ..

    ..

    • Groans

      What should you do? That’s your problem not New Zealand’s problem.  Should have thought about that beforehand eh?

      •  ok groans..i’ll bite..

        ..so those women whose husbands have walked out o them/died/w.h.y…

        ..they ‘Should have thought about that beforehand eh?’..?

        ..csn you hear yrslf saying that..?

        ..and how simplistic/’odious’ it sounds/is..?

        phil-at-whoar.

    • Bafacu

      Why can’t (won’t) you answer Swifty’s questions – strangely enough I can’t seem to recall you ever answering anyone’s direct questions with an intelligable reply – just more of the same waffle.

      As Winstin Chirchill once said :A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject – guesss he met you in a previous life.

      •  why won’t swifty answer my one simple question..?

        ..why don’t you have a go..?

        ..justify for us your utter glee at guarantteng the children of sole-parents..

        ..to have miserable childhoods..?

        ..you can look at yrslf in the mirror and say this is what you want..?

        ..’cos this is what you are so gleefully/maliciously doing…

        ..and was yr childhood like that..?

        ..and if it was..and if it wasn’t..

        ..explain to me how in good conscience you can wish that dickensian-childhood for other children..

        [email protected]

    • Guest

      Ffs Phil you’re an idiot. I’m a solo parent and work full time with no family support. You seem to be implying that this means I’m unable to take care of my child during the holidays. It really isn’t difficult – I save my pennies and take a mixture of annual and unpaid leave during the holidays. Go out and get a job – the dpb is not a contract between you and the state- it is a backstop for people when they are unable to do anything else.

      •  so..just so we are clear on this…

        ..you have an employer who allows you to take off at least 15 weeks a year..?

        ..that’s handy/understanding..

        ..eh..?

        [email protected]

  • and this is the depth of yr intellectual-rationalising of yr political beliefs..eh..?

    ..dosen’t say a lot..

    ..does it..?

    phil-at-whoar.

  • Groans

    You pinko’s are amazing!  Typically to defend your logic you bring out the ‘victims’.   Suddenly we have dead people everywhere.  Don’t tell me, you know a solo-mother whose partner was ‘leader of the pack’

    •  sneer away groans..you are am amateur at it..eh..?..you do know that..eh..?

      you made fatuous-statement-of-the-day..

      ..and you aren’t going to try to defend that statement..?..

      ..that’s wise of you..eh..?

      [email protected]

      • ConwayCaptain

        One thing I was taught at pre sea trining and at sea is when you write a letter or a report it must be legible easy to read and make sense.  I have written reports that could have and in some case did, end up in court and they had to be legible and readable.

        Phil your letters and posts on this site are illegible and impossible to read.  If I had received these when I did “opinions’ for marine lawyers I wouldn’t even had read them, they would have been binned.

        As I was told by the Senior Master in SCONZ, and it was the best advise he gave me, and I can tell you he gave me lots of advice, remember that the Log Book can end up in court, make sure you know what you are saying.  I did, you dont.

        FYI all letters written from the ship by an officer junior to the Master were always written to The Master.

        If written as a Master they were written tonThe Company’s Solicitor and were written so that they could be presented as evidence.

        Yours Phil are the garrulous ramblings of a demented mind.

  • Ok Phil, lets assume that those “..preaching from a position of privilege..” as you put it do infact utilise all day/afterschool childcare. I would suggest that if the parents have decided to be in a position of choice (much as you have chosen to “have a contract with the Government”) are hardly going to put their children in shitty childcare situations. Similarly, you may find that where some parents do utilise relatives/family, often it will be a solo parent within there family that could do with the extra cash (swings and roundabouts there).
    Anyway my point is this, which type of kids to we want growing up in this country, children who witness welfare dependancy by choice as a way of life, or those who see the value and benefit of working? I know what my preference will be.
    I know that from time to time that shit does happen, people split up, die etc meaning that some choice, allbeit for a given period of time, has been taken from some poeple. Showing your children how you react to adversity by getting on with life and not becoming dependant on the Government should surely be preferable?

    what say you?

  • first off stacy..we aren’t talking ‘parents’…we are talking ‘parent’..

    .and there is no ‘choice’..sole-parents..mainly..but not only..women..will be forced to put their children inthose warehouses…

    ..and we are talking about sole-parents with no family backing/support…

    .so i am unclear as to the point you are trying to make there..

    ..and indeed..you are reaching/nearing another ‘nub-question’

    “..which type of kids to we want growing up in this country,..”

    ..do we want these children of/from the underclass…

    ..having spent all of their childhood school holidays in city warehouses..

    ..then spilling out into the streets as unsupervised 14 yr olds..

    ..ready made/bonded gangs..of angry young men..

    ..can nobody else see both the cruelties/madness of guaranteeing a miserable/dickensian childhood…

    ..and in the process…manufacturing free-roaming gangs of angry young men..

    ..are you all fucken mad..?

    ..and you certainly aren’t thinking of the well-being of these children…

    ..are you..

    ..do they deserve these miseries..?

    ..are they ‘sinners’..in yr eyes..?

    ..what was that word again..?

    ..’odious’..wasn’t it..?

    [email protected]

    •  Well i will beg to differ about choice, i personally believe there is always a choice. Choose to shag the wrong person, they split and leave you with a kid, so here you are all alone (using your statement, all solo parents – sorry parent – have no relatives/family) what do i do next??? Generally the first choice is to go to the Government for help, fair enough, they are there for that, I not against some short term help. But turning that into a lifestyle where generally speaking, as luck would have it (sarcasm) the “solo parent” with no relatives/family will end up with another child, again by a wrong choice in partner who will likely split. See where that goes Phil? Choice
      Now as for your other statements about what happens to children if the “solo parent” with no relatives/family chooses to work instead of continuing on the hand out lifestyle.You are aware that they are not in those “warehouses” 24/7, the “solo parent” with no relatives/family still gets to play parent for a significant part of the day and will generally have a bigger influence on the outcome of that child than anything they do at the “warehouses”. Even at 14, they are in school from 830-330 ish, assume the “solo parent” with no relatives/family works till 6-7pm, a couple of hours at a “warehouse” will hardly turn them into a gang prospect.
       
      Did I miss anything? I assume your rant towards the end of this is to the general public here, not me specifically?

  • dad4justice

    Leave redbaiter out of this phool whore you deranged drug fucked stoner.

    •  sniff..!..sniff..!..

      ..did someone fart..?

      [email protected]

      • dad4justice

        Just don’t bad mouth red when he’s not around the blog traps.
        I hate lefty parasitic moonbats like yourself.I paid your benefit today you creep.

  • does he not run an ideologically-pure circle-jerk..?

    ..it says that on his front page..

    ..where exactly is the ‘bad-mouthing’..?

    ..you demented little git you..

    ..eh..?

    ..d4j..

    ..saying exactly the same thing..over and over..

    ..since 2005..

    ..it’s gotta be a record of sorts..

    ..eh..?

    [email protected]

    • dad4justice

      Many of us have been warning the socialist experiment will go belly up for decades now phool.

  • Tom

    Fuuuuuccccckkkk I’m sick of this twat. Can we have that poll again Mr Slater?

    • Euan Rt

      yes please.

  •  why can none of you answer that simple question..?

    [email protected]

    • Karlos

      I’ll answer your question Phillip.
      My father left my mother just before I was born, I have never meet him and my mother has never asked him for a $ of child support (even though he owns 2 businesses). My mother raised me on her own (admittedly with the help of family friends who looked after me during school holidays). Once I turned 14 I was able to look after myself from 3.30pm til she finished work at 5pm. My mother also refused to take a cent from the government as she took that as being a failure in life (I don’t think anyone would have thought lowly of her if she had taken assistance for child care, or even while she was trying to put her life back together), the way she saw it, she made the decision to have me, so why should the general public have to pay for her choice.

      I can tell you, I am now degree qualified, doing my OE in London, worked part time from when i was 15 to when I finished Uni, and have worked full-time since (I started in hospitality pulling pints because it was the only work I could get into to start with, I just refused to take a cent from the government, actually, seems like a theme there……).

      People make choices, you seem to have chosen to see working while raising a child as too hard, and that is fine, but please do not tell me that it is your only choice as the only person you are fooling here is yourself.

  • and those gangs of unsupervised 14-16 yr old children of the underclass..

    ..will be starting their city-wide roaming..

    ..each and every school holidays from now on..

    ..eh..?

    ..and look for a corresponding jump in low-level crime..eh..?

    ..do you people ever think this shit thru at all..?

    ..or do you just stop at the slogans..?

    ..why do you think the designers of this scheme thought it important 14-16 yr olds have parental-supervision..?

    ..and not be left to run wild in the streets..?

    ..why did they do that..?

    ..d’yareckon..?

    ..c’mon..!..thinking caps on..!

    [email protected]

    •  As I said Phil, How does parents (solo parent with no relatives/family included) working when children are the age you say (I note since my post you now raise the age to include 16yr olds to try to better illustrate your point) automatically destin them to be gang associates and roaming the streets, people still have to parent, working or otherwise.

      Or have you just given up on trying to get your point across to me like so many do to you?

  • Guest

    Back to the actual topic – as a solo parent that works full time to support my child – I can’t afford to join the union…. And quite frankly I see no point in joining it. I recognize that I’m able and willing to negotiate my employment contract for myself and not everyone can but I haven’t seen the union at my workplace doing a good job of doing this for their members. The unions just charge big fees to there members for no benefits, particularly since most employers in NZ genuinely try to do the right thing by their employees and try to provide good working environments. Also we have lots of laws in NZ that protect workers rights and an employment court that works very much in the favor of workers rather than employers..

  • so..guest..

    ..tell us more about this understanding employer who allows you to take about four months off each and every year..

    ..where did you find him/her..?..

    ..that’s not bullshit i can smell..

    ..is it..?

    ..guest..?

    ..say it isn’t so..!

    ..eh..?

    ..just making shit up to fit..

    ..eh..?

    [email protected]

    •  you are really a pimply-faced 19 yr old actite-on-campus…

      ..eh..?

      [email protected]

    • Guest

      I’m not sure what school your kid goes to… Perhaps you ‘home school’ them so they won’t get tainted by the nasty system… The school holidays are 12 weeks a year – I take 4 weeks annual leave, and work longer hours whenever I can to save up time in leiu, I also do work from home during the holidays when I can. I end up taking about 2 weeks unpaid spread out over the year…

  • what country are you in..?

    ..new zealand school children only have 12 weeks off..?

    ..who are you trying to kid..?

    [email protected]

  • Agent BallSack

    NZ kids have 18 weeks off per year….Phuckwit [email protected] has 52 weeks off per year

    •  so guest..

      ..this understanding employer who gives you 18 weeks off a year..?

      ..what job allows that..?

      ..which brings us back to our original-question..eh..?

      ..that one nobody has yet been able to answer..

      ..eh..?

      [email protected]

  • Grizz30

    3 mid semester breaks of 2 weeks and 6 weeks summer holiday. Makes 12 weeks according to my mathematics.

    •  whatever..grizz..

      ..where are those employers willing to give 12 weeks off then..?

      ..and still no answers to that un-supervised-feral-underclass gangs of 14-16yr old angry young men and women..running wild through our cities like herds of widebeest on the african plain..

      ..eh..?

      ..and i actually think this has been a valuable-thread..(as far as the political discourse on this subject is concerned..)..and i plan to link to it..

      ..(and much like the gun-nut thread on frogblog over christmas..)

      ..in that all the slogans were brushed away..and the hard facts of the arguments were made…..

      ..and much like the gun-nuts did..you have thrown everything at the argument..

      ..and are shown to be coming up short…

      ..you have no answers to those holiday-questions…

      ..if you did..you would have presented them…

      ..and to me that shows that deep in yr hearts…you know this is irrational/stigmatising/scape-goating…

      ..with those not-guilty children of the underclass being the ones who suffer dickensian childhoods..

      ..their holidays spent corralled in warehouses…..

      ..i mean..isn’t that just nastiness of a high degree..?…nothing more..

      ..and it will be society that later suffers from these angry young people..

      ..who feel/know they owe society nothing..

      ..are you all saying you cannot see these large signposts..?

      ..just because it suits you ideologically..?

      ..is there a name for that syndrome..?..

      [email protected]

      • Grizz30

        I could bore you with the details of what my working mother did when I was a child, but tails of initiative and innovation will be lost on you.

        However one suggestion I have is school holiday programmes, for which there are many providers. However you will now give me some sad story about how unaffordable they are to most solo parents. So I had a look at the WINZ website, and this may interest you: http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/individuals/a-z-benefits/out-of-school-care-and-recreation-oscar-subsidy.html 

        If this is a viable option, then honestly mate, there can be nothing now stopping you getting paid employment and off the DPB.

  • Bunswalla

    Nothing wrong with Grizz’s maths – thankfully he didn’t have Kosh for a teacher.

    BUT WHY ARE YOU STILL RESPONDING TO PHILLIP’S DRIVEL?

    He’s talking shit now, he’s always talked shit, and he always will talk shit. Stop giving him the satisfaction of a response – JUST IGNORE HIM.

    You will never get a straight answer to a simple question – why is this such a mystery to you? He will never agree with anything we say, he won’t even respond to questions you ask him. He just likes winding you up so STOP FALLING FOR IT.

  • Ciaron_A

    And what has all this to do with declining union mambership?

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