We already have post-natal abortion

A huge fuss has broken out over what has been termed post-natal abortion, or the killing of children for a period of time after their birth.

Killing newborns is morally the same as abortion and should be permissible if the mother wishes it, Australian philosophers have argued in an article that has unleashed a firestorm of criticism and forced the British Medical Journal to defend its publication.

Alberto Giubilini, from Monash University, and Francesca Minerva, from the University of Melbourne, say a foetus and a newborn are equivalent in their lack of a sense of their own life and aspiration. They contend this justifies what they call “after-birth abortion” as long as it is painless, because the baby is not harmed by missing out on a life it cannot conceptualise.

About a third of infants with Down syndrome are not diagnosed prenatally, Drs Giubilini and Minerva say, and mothers of children with serious abnormalities should have the chance to end the child’s life after, as well as before, birth.

But this should also extend to healthy infants, the pair argue in the BMJ group’s Journal of Medical Ethics, because the interests of a mother who is unwilling to care for it outweigh a baby’s claims.

The academics call an infant, like a foetus, only a “potential person”, but they do not define the point at which it gains human status, saying this depends on the baby’s degree of self-awareness and is a matter for neurologists and psychologists.

Julian Savulescu, the journal’s editor, said the authors had received death threats since posting the article last week, via the publication’s own website and online discussion forums.

I’m not sure what all the fuss is about. Here in New Zealand this type of “abortion” happens about once or twice a month on average. There are some in our society that think nothing of killing their children up to about school age. PLus they are very creative at how they go about it. Some put them in dryers, or throw them on the roof, other just bash their little heads in, some just drop them a few times.

Often the family closes ranks too all tacitly approving the “abortion”.

But here is the real issue…if it is ok to kill a baby before it is born then surely it is ok to kill it when it doesn’t suit you any more? It is just a factor of timing surely?

 


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  • Agent BallSack

    What the fuck, are these guys actually paid to think up this shit?

    • ConwayCaptain

      YES, they are Philosophers!!!!!!

      I think therefore I am > Descartes

  • Brendon

    Totally agree, if you are allowed to kill your child before it comes out then why not afterwards as well.  Far too many people using abortion as a contraceptive.  If only we could hold off on sex until marriage, but I think that ideal has long since sailed.  We live in a morally corrupt world, and it is all downhill from here until the end, which I really hope isn’t too far off.

  • Euan Rt

    Maybe we could ‘abort’ child molestors and murderers too? 

    • Sadu

      Damn straight. I’d be all for this idea if there was a reliable way of identifying them as foetuses. Unfortunately, there isn’t.

    • titanuranus

      Yes , the list of persons needing a post-partum abortion is growing daily.

  • Agent BallSack

    Oh I missed the bit where they received their own termination threats. We should terminate all lefties also as they have no sense of life conceptualization either…

  • Yeah that’s what happened to the Kahui twins. No difference between that and the couple in Australia who aborted male twins after the first trimester because they didn’t get a girl. Just as well we sorted out that bit of confusion so we can carry on in our paed mollycoddling Pitcairn Island ways. 

  • LesleyNZ

    You are right Cameron. When you think about it these philosophers are thinking quite logically. The unborn baby has no status in its mother’s protective womb so why should a baby that is born have status?. What changes? Just because a newborn baby can breathe on its own? I never realised that so many Down Syndrome babies are being aborted daily in our hospitals. Recently I heard that one DS baby that was aborted by a “natural” birth (it was past the stage of being suctioned out and torn apart) was born alive. The baby was placed in a dish and it struggled to breathe for over 10 minutes – could have even been 20 minutes. Then it died. The parents then wrapped the baby up and held it. Totally legal and practised in our NZ hospitals. I call that murder. Bizarre to think that in the next ward there are premature babies not much older than this aborted one who are receiving specialized care to stay alive. Pretend that the unborn baby is tree, or a whale (a real one), call the unborn baby “Antarctic” and save it. Life begins at conception. 

    • That’s chilling. I wonder however if the baby had a heart defect and was going to die at a later date, in which case it’s a valid decision for the parents. You wouldn’t want to extend suffering if you could be part of the babies passing in a controlled setting. Far better to say goodbye to the lost soul at that stage when the parents have bonded.
      However it is still chilling to think of the rate of DS abortion. I have a friend working in Central wellington Mcd’s – works and travels around the world and has DS. 
      And I am revolted by the selfish parents in the example I gave above. I console myself with the notion that we are in an “orcish” stage of evolution hopefully on the way to a more “elvish” stage of evolution.
      Abortion. For Orc’s. But I don’t blame individual woman (apart from the sicko’s above, because of societies ways of saying “abortion is the better option”.  

      • LesleyNZ

        Down Syndrome people can teach us a lot about ourselves.

  • James Gray

    No. I understand the logic here, but past the time of birth, the baby is a human being with all the rights of any other person, regardless of self awareness.

    One could argue, from a purely philosophical point of view, that consequence is ultimately moot.

    If you take the sum total of everything that exists (include your deity or deities of choice if you go for that sort of thing, they exist don’t they?), there is nothing else.

    It is therefore impossible for anything to have any true purpose. If nothing existed, nothing would be affected because nothing exists.

    And the corollary of this is that we could all do whatever we wanted – Rape, kill, lie, cheat, and steal, and it would be entirely inconsequential.

    Really goes to show that we have to draw the line somewhere when going down that path

  • Phar Lap

     Seems it always amazes me that the people who are all for abortion are the ones who have already been born.A good case in point is the American President Obama,   it is alleged  he is a champion for live abortions,

    • The Baron

      And who alleges that, Phar Lap – the same people that still  want to see his “real” birth certificate? Can I see something that backs up that allegation?

      I recommend that you try not to damage the legitimacy of your arguments by going to crazy extremes.

      • Phar Lap

        Read his background Mr, Before you open your know all mouth .Perhaps your mouth is bigger than your brain. Anyway seems your problem is you dont like the truth.Wonder why you are all over this subject trying to defend the indefensible.

      • The Baron

        I have. I see nothing in it that backs up your assertion that he is “a champion for live abortions”.

        Care to show me what I have missed?

      • Phar Lap

        Seems to me somewhere someone made the decision to give you life Mr.Wonder why you think you have the right to deny babies the right to life.I was thinking you are so full of self loathing you must be running an abortion clinic

      • The Baron

        Phar Lap,
        There is a big difference between live abortions and abortions as practiced here in NZ. I support the latter, not the former.

        I took exception to your nutty conspiracy that Obama “is a champion for live abortions”. Now, I’m no fan of the guy; but what I am a fan of is asking people that make batshit insane comments like yours to provide some evidence for them.

        Now you can call me whatever you like, and get all high, yet irrelevant, horse too – but you still haven’t given any source at all for your original, insane comment.

        Would you please show me who or where alleges he is a champion for live abortions, or simply STFU?

  • politically unstable

    In some ways, the (tax paid?) “philosphers” have turned the abortion debate upside down. If anti abortion people say that an unborn baby has the same rights as a baby, then why not for all the pro-abortion people, allow a born baby the same rights as an unborn baby.

    I guess thats what they are trying to articulate?

    I guess there are some bizarre people that think differently – much like that lot over at Stranded… 

  • Agent BallSack

    Basically they’re rehashing Hitlers Eugenics and calling it a study. Hitler was all for live abortion of the weaker and more vulnerable members of society too.

  • dutyfree

    And here you go:

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10789281

  • Apolonia

    So it’s O.K to kill a child but not O.K to smack them for being naughty.

  • The Baron

    You had me with this until you started with your bible bashing at the end by jumping on the “life from conception” bandwagon.

    Really Cam, I know your faith is important to you, but can we have a little less channelling of Santorum please?

    • If you don’t like it, you could fuck off to The Pitcairns where children’s rights are well proven to come secondary to adults.

      • The Baron

        … or I could stay right here, where the law seems to balance things pretty sensibly in this regard. Maybe you could “fuck off” to the states if you don’t like it? North Carolina has made some moves I’m sure you approve of.  

        And given that those gents were jailed in the Pitcairns, I’m not sure your point was “well proven” at all.  

    • Groans

      You’re a baby murderer

      • The Baron

        Never done any such thing, but here’s to sensible and reasonable debate huh!

  • Groans

    To ‘The Baron’:  I don’t negotiate with killers

    • The Baron

      That’s fine – what were we negotiating again? Hahahaha.

  • Too late scrote-grabber. But I’ll stay in sunny as fuck California, thanks.
    And the islanders still won’t admit anything was wrong with their tradition of kiddy-fucking. Just as some pro-choicers think a baby is there’s to do with as they want right up to the point of birth. 
    I’m pro-choice but if you can’t get it out of you by 13 to 20 weeks then you’ve pretty much got a living breathing hooman inside of you. One that still might die if your body shuts down on you and birth is the only way you’ll survive or one that has so many defects that it’s parents have to let it go.

    • The Baron

      You’ve lost me with comparing abortion to kiddy fucking, and my support for the latter. 

      You’ve lost me even further with your reference to doing “as they want right up to the point of birth”.

      Glad your pro choice. Glad you like those timeframes. We are on the same page.

      So what exactly has got your knickers in a twist, love?

  • STEVE AND MONIQUE

    Abortion,.To abort,stop,remove,.Ok morally proberly not great.But what fuckwit came up with killing them once they are born.Figure the term for that would then be murder. We have enough fucked up parents in this country doing it already,and closing ranks and getting away with it.This would just give them a better defence for getting off with it,rather then silence.

  • Orange

    Great post Whale. I don’t think anyone got the point you were making but I did and have to say well done.

    • wannano

       Nah I got it too Orange.
      It is a great point that we get all exercised (for probably the right reasons) about abortion, but the elephant in the room remains just that!

      • HonestWhore

        Exactly, Orange and Wannano!  And that elephant is absolutely AOK to conduct postnatal abortions with dyers, fists, clothes-lines, bullets, alcohol, meth, family collusion, whatever.  BAD elephant!

  • George

    Yeah, just the same as finishing off a wounded rabbit with a second shot.  Dr Mengele would be proud of these philosophers.  They give evil a bad name.

  • Steve P

    If you have to explain to someone why killing a new-born baby is wrong, then they’ll probably never get it.

    For a pair of “philosophers” their poor reasoning and lack of logic is glaring.

    “They contend this justifies what they call “after-birth abortion” as long as it is painless…”

    If it doesn’t have the moral status of a person, what does it matter if the termination is painless? (So what, I suppose then that “animal rights” come into it; so while it’s not a person it’s still an animal? Do animals have greater rights than babies?)

    And why is it only the mother who gets to decide? If a newborn is going to be a burden on the state shouldn’t the state have prior rights Nazi-style, as Agent BallSack pointed out?

    And if a newborn doesn’t have the moral status of a person, why shouldn’t *anyone* be able to terminate it for any reason whatsoever? Like, say, its crying on the bus is disturbing my commute while I’m trying to read the paper? After all, it’s not murder, right? It’s no worse than squishing a mosquito, right?

    Stop the planet, I want to get off… *sigh*

  • jay cee

    aborting a foetus in the womb during the first 13 weeks is just that, an abortion. after the child is born it is infanticide, and is punishable under the law, whether you like it or not. sounds like a couple of academics having a common room phillosophical debate about ethics to me.

    • HonestWhore

      Umm actually the health system DOES provide abortions after 13 weeks, and they don’t get sued for it.  The latest I’ve heard of is 30 weeks; well after the stage of viability …

  • BW_Lord

    It seems to me that the primary role of a philosopher is to promote the debate of preconcieved notions. To help people come to a better undestanding of the issues at hand.

    As far as I can see, all they have done is state that there is some moral ambiguity around the point at which an infant becomes ‘self aware’, or when human rights can be applied on their behalf. They’ve done this by using post-natal abortion as an example, using the current laws in place to prove their point.

    Earning their pay judging by the shitstorm all over the place.

  • Phar Lap

    For the ignorance of some creep called the Baron,i suggest he goes to U TUBE and checks out OBAMA ON LIVE ABORTIONS.Bet he wont, as the truth for a self appointed abortion specialist is denial of true facts.

    • The Baron

      I can’t go on You Tube from where I am as it is blocked. Once I can, I will, and I look forward to commenting on it afterward.

      • Phar Lap

        Thank you i respect your honesty.

  • Jacko

    Obama’s position is made clear in a National Review Online post, part of which I will quote:
     
    “As noted yesterday, not one U.S. senator voted against  BAIPA. Even
    NARAL didn’t oppose it. At the time of the vote, CNN reported that
    NARAL’s spokesman said the following:

    ‘We, in fact, did not oppose the bill. There is a clear legal difference between a fetus in utero versus a child that’s born. And when a child is born, they deserve every protection that the country can provide. (Emphasis added).’

    The logical import of Obama’s vote against BAIPA is that he
    disagrees, i.e., once a baby has been targeted for abortion it
    thereafter has no inherent right to the food, comfort, and medical care
    provided to other babies born alive. Indeed, during Illinois state
    senate deliberations on BAIPA, Obama stated that one of his objections
    was that the bill was “designed to burden the original decision of
    the woman and the physician to induce labor and perform an abortion.”
    Apparently, once the decision to abort has been made, a child is doomed
    even if born alive.

    Does President Obama maintain that, but for BAIPA, an abortion
    provider continues to retain dominion over babies he fails to abort for
    some unspecified time after birth? Would Obama permit the abandonment of
    any other class of babies, e.g., those born  with abnormalities?
    Precisely where does he draw the line?

    see http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/290764/clarifying-obamas-vote-born-alive-peter-kirsanow

    • Phar Lap

      Thanks for that.A pity you didnt mention that live abortion babies   in the USA  are in fact given a birth certificate,shortly after a death certificate.To think the so called leader of the free world  OBAMA   condones it,is an abomination.

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