It isn’t the end of the world

Noah Berlatsky

Many people who oppose marriage equality like to suggest that it is the end of the institution of marriage. That isn’t true:

Marriage has, in the past, been about one man/one woman, just as Gallagher says; it’s been an assertion that gender and gender roles are as important as, or even more important than, what you feel in your heart.

Gay marriage is a final, absolute refutation of that logic. If two men can get married, or two women, then marriage must really be not about power, but about love. Gay marriage, then, is radical in the best sense, in that it offers equality and hope not just to gay people, but to children, women, and men of every orientation—even to Gallagher, resist it as she will. Gay marriage is not just about straight people accepting gays into our institutions. It’s about gay people teaching us what those institutions mean. The gay community has given straight people a lot over the years, but surely gay marriage is one of the greatest gift it has offered us.


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  • Pete George

    A growing number of MPs are showing support for marriage equality. MPs against it are tending not to respond to requests for stating their position.

    I’ll keep compiling MPs on same sex marriage

    • Kosh103

      Yes Old John Banks refused to comment. Seems another of his lies is showing. He has not changed one bit on his position about homosexuals. The Debate in the house during the homosexaul law reform remains an accurate account of Johns Banks and his view on homosexuality.

      • nzd.gbp

        let’s let people do their own talking. It’s less fascist.

      • Euan Rt

        So your point is…’that John Banks should have something to teach the straight community’? you go on like a broken record Kosh. Certainly you seem to have nothing to teach the straight community about love.

      • Kosh103

        Euan – given Johns homophobic rants and views and my view that every single person has the right to be with whom they love without fear – I think I do have a little to teach hetros like Banks about what real love is.

    • LesleyNZ

      Why is an MP not allowed to be against gay marriage? Just because you think it is OK doesn’t mean to say it is OK with everyone else.Those who don’t agree with gay marriage are getting some real nasty stuff levelled at them. They are allowed to have an opinion – just like you are Pete George. Have some tolerance Pete!

      • Pukakidon

         Lesley, unfortunately Kosh is a Gay Facist.   He will not tolerate any one having an opposing view to his.   If they do they are lambasted and receive untold personal abuse.

        In Koshes Gay Reich, Heterosexuals would be sent straight to the gas chambers, all books making reference to heterosexual behavior would be burnt and heterosexuals would only be kept around to breed babies of Gay parents to adopt..

  • Jimmie

    To be honest the broken record sensation is alive and well over this topic – may well be good to have a break from it….zzzzzz…..sounds more like preaching to the heathen (believe this or else!)
    than anything else. 

    Gay marriage will likely happen sometime soon however forcing the concept down folks throats does tend to get somewhat tiresome Cam.

  • nzd.gbp

    hehe. “what you feel in your heart”. classic.

  • AngryTory

    No gay marriage ain’t the end of the world.
    Another “Greek” budget from Bill English
    Into a crisis worse than 2008
    Just might be the end of NZ

    • Kosh103

      Well this budget could seal the death of this Govt. Another poll out showing Labour could rule if there was an election today – and with less parties in Govt that currently.

      • Just as well there isn’t an election today then. 

      • Kosh103

        Thats right WO. Because we need National to really screw things up so at the next election they are even more unpopular.

      • Bunswalla

        I think you mean “fewer parties” teacher, and “than currently”

    • Gazzaw

      Threadnapping again AT? You are as bad as kosh (well almost)

      • Kosh103

        Poor gaz, his mind just cannot handle more than one conversation at a time.

      • Gazzaw

        On the contrary koshy, I keep to the subject. It was what I was taught to do at school. Mind you I had some good teachers.

      • Kosh103

        The inability to deal with more than one thought at a time Gaz isnt a good advert your your brains ability.

      • Gazzaw

        Oh it can deal with more than one train of thought at a time kosh, don’t worry about that. It’s people who can’t grasp the subject and wander off on a tangent usually to meet a little personal agenda that worry me. It’s called lack of focus & not a trait to be encouraged in those responsible for teaching our kids.

      • Kosh103

        LOL, ahh you go girl, you argue that the ability to multi task, to contribute to different thoughts at the same time is a bad skill to have.

        I see people who are unable to branch out from a central ttheme as rather stunted in the brain dept – but you go, you aruge in favour of the stunted brains.

      • Gazzaw

        And what’s more koshy, I’m literate.

      • AngryTory

        well it’s tangentially related to the title anyway.  

        if you’re going to give a fuck about something – you sure as shit can do better than that being gay marriage.

  • BR

    Two men getting married.
    Two heterosexual men getting married.
    Two heterosexual pedophiles getting married.
    Two heterosexual pedophiles getting married and adopting children.

    The end.


    • Kosh103

      Oh good lord the tinfoilers are out early today.

    • Le Sphincter

      Heard of the beast of Blenheim ?

      He was marriedThose crimes involved luring vulnerable women with young daughters into his life, then drugging, beating, degrading them and raping them, often mothers in front of their daughters. He kept his “wife” and mistress virtual prisoners and sex slaves and made his six-year-old daughter eat with the cats. One victim described him as “an angel of the devil”; another said the dog was better treated than she was. 

      • Random66

        Here is an example of why I think we should have the death sentence.  I wonder if the Conservative Party would consider backing this wish of mine.

      • Pukakidon

         Trou du cul

        So you have a new candidate for leader of the Labour Party, when does he get out of jail?

        He certainly seems to meet the party criteria

    • Heteroesexual pedophiles already get married and have children…you may have noticed them in the news a lot…when they get caught.

  • Bat Crazy

    Here is something even worse.

    They let morons procreate:  BR is their offspring.

  • LesleyNZ

    All the “gay” stuff lately is going the way like what man made global warming did. Starts off as a campaign by lobby groups (maybe in the UN) or from somewhere – organized well and spreads quickly in cyberspace and voila – it is worldwide and dominates the headlines. Wonder what the next campaign/trend will be? Maybe it will be “Save the Heterosexuals From Extinction”?

    • Mitch

      The “gay stuff” is what normal, happy, tolerant people like to call ‘human rights’. This isn’t the UN or any other secret club pushing an agenda. This is your neighbour, your postie, your workmate, people that you walk by in the street. I’m straight, I only know one openly gay person, yet I think gay marriage and parenting is fine. The difference in my case is that I’m Atheist, I don’t have a holy book telling me to deny the rights of someone I’ll never meet.

      If we’re going to continue to resist change, perhaps we should go back to denying women the right to vote, racial segregation and slavery.

      News flash: the majority that Christians have enjoyed thus far is shrinking – the Vatican knows this, the Church accountants know this. It might be nice to be able to dictate the rights of others today, but the majority could be deciding your rights as a Christian in the future. It won’t feel so nice when the finger is pointed at you.

      • LesleyNZ

        Correct Mitch – you are right because as an Atheist – anything goes. Just heard on the news that some got arrested in Russia for demonstrating against homophobia. This homophobia campaign is very well orchestrated from a central source. Bit like the Wall St occupy campaign. The word goes out to faithful and those sympathetic to the cause …….and action!
        News Flash: There is a very big difference between “Christian” and “Catholic”. Catholics believe you get to heaven by works (a works religion).  Christians believe you are saved by grace – the grace of God through the Lord Jesus Christ (faith by grace religion – work of God not man).

      • Bunswalla

        And Lesley – they’re each as hypocritical, intolerant, power-hungry, oppressive and manipulative as each other.

  • BR

    “Heteroesexual pedophiles already get married and have children…you may
    have noticed them in the news a lot…when they get caught.”

    So to make homosexuals feel better about their unnatural, abnormal and broken lifestyles, another domain in which perverts can operate should be introduced?


    • Euan Rt

      Bill, you are obviously a religious man. While our core beliefs and values may be similar, I am at odds with your belief that you/formal religion have the right to dictate to secular society what they must believe or how they must act. You remain fully within your right to do what you believe for yourself and your family, but nowhere do you have a mandate to dictate how others, who do not share your beliefs,
      must live. Your mandate is to share the love that you know and allow people to operate under their own convictions. It is not your place to convict others of the logs you think you see.

    • Kosh103

      The only unnatural broken life I see on display here is yours BR. So full of hate. Get some help.

  • Ratty

    Do Homosexuals uphold the sanctity of marriage as us god fearing christian men do ?

    • Kosh103

      LMAO – looking around at the number of god fearing christains who beat their wives, abuse their kids, play with other peoples kids – Id be careful holding them up as something to emulate.

      • LesleyNZ

        We all have the potential to sin Kosh……………..even Christians.

      • Kosh103

        Thats true les. So why keep pretending otherwise?

      • Pukakidon

         Kosh the church you belong to must be a doozy with all those wife beaters, sexual abusers and deviants.    You want to find a new church, your one is broke.

        When I look around my church I dont see any of that going on, I guess it must be the difference in the company we keep.  Try hanging out with less christian teachers and you might not see all these wife beaters, abusers and kiddie fiddlers.   You might even find a better quality of friend and even meet a heterosexual that you don’t hate.

      • Kosh103

        Wow, quiet a bullshit ridden post there puka. No surprise, but it is one of your more bullshitier posts.

  • Mitch

    Oh look – the Christians are at it again, decreeing that they can dictate what the rest of the world does. There’s INFINITELY MORE pedophilia happening in your Churches than in gay marriage – get off your high horse and sort your own house out before you throw rocks at someone else’s. The world is laughing at you when you try to argue against gay marriage by throwing pedophile accusations at them.

    This inane, bigoted stupidity offends me – therefore I am opposed to the Christian marriage that breeds it. Am I doing it right?

  • Gazzaw

    To each his own.This must be a totally apolitical issue with no party direction. That freedom must,however, extend to the churches, synagogues, mosques, temples etc and their congregations as to whether they choose to perform same sex marriages in the event of these marriages becoming law.

  • dyannt

    Kosh?, anyone? – maybe you could explain to me.
    Why isn’t civil union the answer (or enough)?
    What is more desirable about ‘Marriage’?

    Even before Civil Union non-religious people could get hitched at the Registry Office.
    I’m sure they didn’t feel “less married” because their ceremony wasn’t held in a church.

    • Kosh103

      The arguemnt is simple. Equality.

      If you have to create a seperate thing so gays can get together in a legal sense, allow everyone access to it, but still prevent gays marrying the equality is an illusion.

    • Mitch

      As Kosh said, equality. 

      It doesn’t help matters that Christians hold the belief that gay marriage in some way degrades or invalidates their own marriage.. it’s a petty and insecure stance.

      If the gay guy next door gets the same car as you, it doesn’t lessen the value of yours. He drinks the same water as you, eats the same food, shops at the same supermarket, watches the same 6 o’clock news, lives in the same street. He could even (shock horror!) worship the same god as you and go to the same church.

      • Pukakidon

         Mitch you are a bigot.   All Christians do not believe that. In fact most do not and prefer to go by the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  This means most Christians would not care if Homos wanted to get married.

        You and Kosh are the same, espousing your bigoted and generalized view of Christians.

      • Mitch

        Puka, you’re missing the point. I’m not a bigot, I’m simply using Christians as the example, because they’re the largest group that stands up and tries to have a say in whether gay people can marry or not. Gay marriage has always been opposed first and foremost by the religious opposition who take issue with it on moral grounds – and you don’t normally hear Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu representatives being called on for their opinion in this debate.

        Even though I’m not much of a fan of religion, if the issue being debated was a Christian’s right to worship in public, I would be in the same position – fighting for that basic right on their behalf.It’s all fine and good when it’s not your own rights that are being discussed and decided, by people you’ve never even met. Look at this issue from the other side of the coin and imagine if someone were trying to deny or take away your right to marry.

      • LesleyNZ

        Mitch – if he/she gay person wants to worship in a Christian church then they are welcome but they will need to stop living the homosexual lifestyle. If gays marry their marriage is not the same as a heterosexual – that is the reality.

      • Kosh103

        Puka you really are a stupid fucktard.

        You jump to incorrect assumptions at every chance in order to attack those you dont like or disagree with. You know full well he didnt mean every single christian, yet you pretended he did and attacked.

        As hard as this is for you try, try to be smarter.

      • Pukakidon


        What did I tell you about using that discriminating language.  You should know better, being that you are a teacher. Using terms that are putdowns of Intellectually challenged people is not a good look. If you used that in the conduct of your role as a teacher it is termed harassment and is means for dismissal.   You should know the law as regards to the use of discriminating language aimed at minorities or those with disabilities. .

        It is funny that the point you are always harping on about, e.g. that heteros hate and bash their children and that homosexuals are by far better parents is ridiculous.   This is the same language that was around in the 70s and 80s when homophobes went around giving Gay people the bash because they were generalizing in their poorly educated minds that gays were perverts or child molesters.   You see the meaning of a bigot is that they are ill-educated and make poor judgements based on generalized unfounded ideas. They often say discriminating things, and when it is pointed out that it is not appropriate they will always deny that is what they mean. Sound familiar?    What you say is what you mean, you cant then turn around and deny it.  You are always quick to jump on John Banks or John Key when quoting them often out of context.

        You seem to attack religious people on this blog when they express their ideas and then tell them they are wrong because their opinion is not the same as yours. Actually everyone’s opinion matters in the country it may not always be right but they are allowed their opinion because we live in a free country we it is right to have freedom of speech.

        Most rational thinking Christian people are over this gay marriage thing, but you seem to continue to attack the majority e.g. all Christians by using your generalising put downs.  You want to learn to turn the other cheek or at least put up an argument rather than calling people silly names and saying lies lies lies.

      • Pukakidon

         Mitch, I am a christian but I don’t frequent Church too often.   I believe in live and let live, probably the same as you.   I care not if two men want to marry or two woman want to marry. What they do is their business.   But what does get on my goat is people who use religion to float their own boat, both sides!!  Yes there are bad religious people who are very judgmental of others, however on the other hand Christian religion is all about being good to others and by far the majority of Christians are indeed good. 

        It is the same as people who call Muslims terrorists because of a particular group of bad Muslims. I have met many many good Muslim people, and in fact the Koran is very similar to the bible in its morals.   The Muslim religion suffers the same problem as the Christian religion. The problem is how the bible or Koran are being interpreted.  In most cases they are misinterpreted by the bad people for their own ends.

        Both religions have a similar golden rule ” do unto others as you would have them do unto you”     If the fundamentalist anti gay marriage people were themselves gay I am sure their opinion would certainly change.

        That is why I get pissed off with people who continue to generalize that Christians are bad or that Gay parents are better than Hetero Parents.  It is a rank and bigoted belief.  So I must apologize to you.

        However, you Kosh are still a bigot, as you have a long record record of it on here.

      • Kosh103

        Once again Puka you demonstrate your amazing lack of smarts.

        I dont attack hetros, I condem bad hetros. Or are you suggesting that because I am gay I cannot condem evil if it is wrapped in hetrosexuality?

        Also given that I my self am a christain I do not attack religious people either, I condem stupidity and hate.

        If you are going to insist on telling such awful lies, then I suggest you try to make them a little more harder to knock over.

        I expect your usual lie fillied, poorly thought out reply.

      • Pukakidon

        That is the point.   I have never ever stated that Homosexuals would turn in to pedophiles or said that they are perverts or sick, and I have openly stated that I live and let live.   But what you are doing is using that bigoted language by saying that heterosexuals are bad people and generalising this and that or using the small percentages of abusers as an excuse for attacking heterosexuals or men and women with families.   Look at the percentages of those good heterosexual parents as apposed to the poor heterosexual parents, the percentage is small.  They are bad because they are bad people for what ever reason, not because of their sexuality.

        You are no different to those who say homosexuals are this or that, or that homosexuals would sexually abuse their children they generalise and you generalise as regards to heterosexuals and Christians. 

        You use language that is discriminating against intellectually challenged people.  I know many intellectually challenged people and they always have an innocent and lovely nature, once again it shows your extreme beliefs.

        You are a verbally abusive man that uses very hurtful and degrading language directed to everyone on this blog, you just have to look at all you comments, no factual evidence no reference, just abuse.   You call it “calling a spade a spade”, I call it being bitchy. 

        Using verbal abuse is no different than physical abuse against others including women and children.

  • Rodger T

    Oh, my the sanctity.

    Thank Thor, the marry your pets  argument has tailed off. 
    Living in Sin didn`t lead to a meteor storm wiping out civilisation ,so I`ll hazard a guess and predict that 2 gays/lesbians getting hitched won`t either.

  • Admin

    Mitch: You are the one commenter on here who is making any sense, and the only one with whom it would be possible to hold a conversation with.  
    It took me bloody ages to figure out what’s going on with the comments here until I realized that the rest are either 
    a) Extremists pushing an agenda, and unable to consider the existence of opposing or even moderate views. (But with both sides of the political divide represented on both sides of this debate, interestingly.)  or 
    b) Batshit crazy, like Bill H whom for some reason I imagine semi naked, masturbating to weird, niche porn while his terrified, diminutive, and submissive wife is out at yet another bible meeting to get her away from the husband they both know she loathes. 
    Go and talk to your kids or make love to your Mrs or something mate, it’s better than trying to talk to this lot.

  • Boss Hogg

    1/2 time – Blues vs Crusaders – Some Gay rugby from the blues so far…………….

    • Pukakidon

      Heterosexual Crusaders won however the Blues would be better parents.

  • TravisPoulson

    Puka you really are a stupid fucktard.”

    kosh, if you’re going to abuse people, at least grow some balls and use your real name. And stop  discriminating against intellectually disabled people as a way of insulting others. 

    You are no better than those that you think you are superior to in your twisted view of what you seem to think is the moral high ground. 

    Play nice, or at least use your real name just so people know the cunt behind the comments. 

    • Bunswalla

      Well said.

      • Boss Hogg

        Kosh’s name is not hard to find if you look.  It appears that his “real world” is a small rural school – I am sure it is very nice.  Not sure I would consider that “real world” though.   Why so many people concern themelves with the wants of trivial minorirties is what I don’t get.  Much bigger fish to fry…….

      • TravisPoulson

        Oh don’t worry Boss Hogg, I know the who and the where, what he looks like, and who he’s ‘married’…..sorry, civil unioned to. I was just giving him a chance to modify his behaviour himself. 

      • Kosh103

        My goodness thinly veiled threats now because I wont allow the bullys and thugs to have their way.

        Why am I not surprised.

    • Kosh103

      Travis I call a spade a spade. I make no apologies if this bothers you.

      • TravisPoulson

        You abuse people, and use discriminatory language. There is no excuse for it. 

        I’ve known people with natural intellectual disabilities, and people suffering from brain damage caused from accidents. 

        I don’t care what excuse you try to use or what pathetic justification you have for it, but if you continue to refer to people as any kind of “tard” then I will publicly out you. 
        I stand by my comments by not hiding behind an alias, perhaps you might care to join me one day, one way or another.

      • TravisPoulson

        Once upon a time I might have been sympathetic to your point of view on this topic kosh, but after seeing the way you conduct yourself with people who don’t agree with you, not any more.

      • Kosh103

        My goodness trav, applying the Judith Colins tactic are we. People say things you dont like and you make threats.

        And please do not bother with any moral soapbox standing – as someone who has a brother who has to deal with mental “issues” I know which “tard” is actually offensive and which one identifies:

        a person of unbelieveable, inexcuseable and indescribable stupidity. Which has nothing to do with mental disability. In reality it is you who are using people with real problems to threaten others into doing as you say. All that said, and being the better person that I am, becuase you have ASKED (I will ignore your bullying threats) I will stop using that word. In the past I have asked others elsewhere to stop using a particular word which denotes homosexuals in a disgusting and extreamly hateful light from my POV – and they did. So out of respect for those peoples actions, not really your bullyboy thug approach, I will do as you have ASKED. Oh and one final tip – I dont back down from bullys and thugs as I proved early on when someone tried to make me shut up by posting the amazing fact that I have looked at gay porn. What happened – I said it was true and that person went off with their tails between their legs. Now, if any of this upsets you – too bad, but you are no better than a common bully who threatens people to get his own way. You would make a fine National minister.

      • TravisPoulson

        I couldn’t care less if you looked at gay porn kosh. Spare me the details. And all the rest of the dribble about what you deem to be “bullies”, “thugs” and threats”, you don’t know the meaning of the words. 
        You just got a deserved slap down, nothing more, nothing less.
         I don’t go out of my way to bully you, fact. I’m not violent towards you, so I’m no thug, fact. As for what you deemed a “threat, it wasn’t a threat, it was a promise.
        And don’t make out like you are going to stop using those words out of some ridiculous excuse that it was because you are doing it out of respect to other people or because I ASKED, because people have asked you several times not to before and you continue to do so. It is directly because of what I said I would do if you didn’t. Don’t make out like it isn’t, you and I both know that’s not true.
        This is not the first time you’ve been told to lift your game in terms of how you engage your debate. 
        Play the ball, not the man. I just can’t fathom how you cannot see that.

        There are other left wing commenter’s on this blog that can engage the debate without attacking the person. You could learn alot from them.

         “What happened – I said it was true and that person went off with their tails between their legs. Now, if any of this upsets you – too bad”

        How could it upset me kosh? I don’t even know what you’re talking about. Wasn’t there. Wasn’t part of the conversation. Didn’t even read such a post. This is just diversionary on your part, don’t make out like I’m upset about something I haven’t even read, I’ve already told you what I disliked, end of story.

      • Rufus

         Kosh – you claim to be a Christian (although you spelt it s “christain”).

        I’d ask you to be a little more Christ-like.

      • Kosh103

        Oh what a load of tripe Trav. I have been slapped down by no one. And you have acted like a thug and a bully demanding I do as you say otherwise you “out” me. If you dont like what I say, then ignore my posts. Do not repsond, do not read them or react to them.

        And I recall no one asking me not to use the word fucktard, until you. They have expressed displeasure at being called it (despite it being apt) but never have I read a request like yours till now.

        And as for lifting my game, please. My game is just fine. I will call a spade a spade, I will slap a fool a bigot a homophobic twit with amazing force and volume. Also, given that everything on this topic I have posted has been 100% correct, Im fine with my game. And as I said, you dont like my posts, dont read or react to them.

        Problem solved.  

      • Kosh103

        Hey Rufus, being against the haters is christ like. Perhaps you should read how pissy Christ got with the money lenders in the temples.

      • TravisPoulson

        I will call a spade a spade” there’s your problem kosh. You can’t tell the difference between calling a spade a spade, and abusing people and calling them names under the justification of your gay victim mentality. 
        You’re a teacher acting like a school kid. Perhaps too much time around them has rubbed off on you?
        I mean seriously kosh, your comments have little else to offer other than name calling and insults. 
        The goings-on of playtime in the sandpit. I’ll respond to which ever posts I deem fit. Still pulling the “thugs” and “bully” nonsense, Spare me the tears. 

        You abuse someone then call “bully” and “thug”  when someone retaliates. Pathetic. Typical leftist mentality. 

      • Rufus

         Kosh – Christ told His followers to “turn the other cheek”, and to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”.

        You’re not very loving on here Kosh.

      • Rufus

        Kosh – Christ didn’t hate the “haters” – He loved them so much, He died for them. 

        That is the whole point of Christianity.

      • Rufus

         Kosh (can I call you Paul?), you are claiming to be a Christian.

        However, your language and behaviour is offending even non-Christians on here to the point that even they are calling you up on your attitude.

        Rather than coming right back with more of the same, it might be prudent to reflect on what you are trying to achieve on here.

      • Kosh103

        Christ died for our sins –  there is a difference.

        And as for what I want to achieve here- I have covered this already. I do not expect one single person on here to change their mind because of anything I say. The right on here are so closed minded that its amazing they can still function.

        And before you try the “so are you” argument – wrong. On the odd occasion I have been wrong, I have fessed up. Also, any time I could be wrong on something that has yet to occur (my claim about the 2014 election) I have stated I will say I was wrong. I have yet to see a single person on here do that in any thread I have been in.

        And as I said to Trav, if you dont like what I say, dont read it and dont respond to it. Your problem is solved.

      • Rufus

        So Kosh, you would say that you are showing the love of Christ to those who disagree with your views and your “style”?

        ie. the problem doesn’t lie with your behaviour on here, but with them?

        Is that what you’re trying to articulate, Paul?

  • Mediaan

    Evidence lacking in most comments.
    For sure, the gay lobby want, either, some financial advantage out of this probably out of government, or, better access to the children to turn them into beings more to their taste.
    Their campaign makes no sense otherwise.
    Either way I don’t like it.