Missiongathering Christian Church loves everyone (even Gays)

These people get the unconditional part of unconditional love

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  • Mitch82
  • Unconditional love does not encourage destructive behaviour. Some times you need tough love.

    • Like the tough love that catholic priest show the kids they tell have to perform all manner of perversions to make things right with God….yeah tough love like that…that will get them there.

      • Obviously not.

        You seriously have a one track mind.

        • Ronnie Chow

          With the destination being a total dissolution of the Ratzinger pedophile hierarchy ……. Go Cameron !

      • LesleyNZ

        On judgement day God will say to the Catholic Priest, “I never knew you”.

        • Surely you only mean the unrepentant serious sinners, not all Catholic priests?

          • unsol

            You mean unrepentant sinners – serious doesnt come into it, sin is sin. Doesn’t matter how far you jump out from the cliff as the fall is just the same….

          • No, I mean serious. We Catholics distinguish between venial and mortal (serious) sin. Venial sin is trivial stuff that if not dealt with, will eventually cause a person to sin mortally, and mortal sin is called mortal for a reason – it leads to death.

          • That’s why I say Catholics aren;t christian…there is no such definition and separation of sin in the bible. Christ was clear…all sin is equal…but then you pricks still have him hanging on the cross…don’t you know he has risen?

            This venial and mortal sin is a human construct…actually a commercial human construct designed to extract additional revenue from penitents and indulgences…and has just carried on by the likes of people like you.

          • 1 John 5:16-17 (RSV): “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin which is not mortal.”

            For a more thorough explanation and more Bible verses in support, see Biblical Evidence for Catholicism</a

          • 1 Cor 1:18, 22-23 “The message of the cross is complete absurdity to those who are headed for ruin, but to us who are experiencing salvation it is the power of God…Jews demand “signs” and Greeks look for “wisdom,” but we preach Christ crucified—a stumbling block to Jews, and an absurdity to Gentiles.”

          • LesleyNZ

            Apart from the language absolutely agree Whale. That is why Martin Luther left the Catholic Church and God used him to bring about the Reformation.

          • Ronnie Chow

            You belong to a gay church , Lucia . You are being manipulated by men who are in it for themselves .

          • How would a gay church last for 2000 years? It would have imploded long ago. In fact, the Catholic Church should have imploded long ago, given some of the bad popes we’ve had, the heretics, the scandals, except for the fact that it is supported by God.

          • Through fear…the tools of the catholic church…all through tis 2000 history…fear

          • Fear! Really? Any other organisation that has lasted as long through fear? And it converts thousands in China who risk persecution by becoming Catholic … through fear? You might want to think about that one a bit more.

            Look, I’m a revert to the Church. Left it in my teenage years when all that happy clappy stuff was starting, and the nuns were taking off their habits and such, because I thought the Church was hypocritical, saying one things and Her proponents doing another. Only problem is, if you just read the anti-stuff, you get just a small part of the picture.

            It would be just the same if we only read the bad stuff about men – we’d think they were all evil bastards and women should just live on an island like the one Wonder Woman was raised on.

            Hmmm, maybe you are all evil bastards!

          • Andrei

            um Whale, you are a protestant, the protestant churches came out of the Catholic Church a mere 400 years ago.

            Are you saying there were no Christians until 1600 years after the crucifiction?

          • LesleyNZ

            Lucia, Whale was referring to a Catholic Priest in this instance, who is leading a life that is not Godly at all or bearing the fruit of a Christian. You are right about being an unrepentent sinner but God views all sin the same – there are no degrees of sin. It is sin – that separates mankind from God. Only through Jesus Christ can man be made right before God. Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life”. The following verses are about true and false prophets and true and false disciples and those who profess to be Christians but in fact are not bearing the fruit of a true Christian. For context you need to read all the preceding verses to the verse I quoted in the previous reply. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:%2015-23&version=NIV
            True and False Prophets
            15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
            True and False Disciples
            21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

          • No degrees of sin, huh? On a different part of this thread I quote 1 John 5:16-17 which talks about degrees of sin.

    • unsol

      I agree with you LM in part – the difference of course being that rather than sex relationships, I see those who take it upon themselves to apply their definition of their faith/their bible/faith book or whatever and appoint themselves as judge & jury as destructive behaviour.

      The church has nothing to do with law in a secular society but even if it did, if you are to take the OT well yes you would have a point, but then I would also expect that I could stone you to death if you dare to wear cotton & wool. And if you are talking about the NT, the so-called acts of homosexuality refer to the rape of male slaves by their apparently heterosexual masters…..and then there is the fact that Paul – the so-called found of the Catholic church, demanded that no one gets married (1st Corinthians 7:27…are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.)….

      But we have discussed this before.

      Point is you believe what you do because of faith but you have no business expecting others to follow your moral code just on your say so.

      If all church goers agreed on everything pertaining to God, Christ, the Holy Spirit MARY, Rosary Beads & the Bible and could convert all those of equally strong but different faiths (Muslim, Confucius, Buddhist, Hindu, Kair, Sant, Hellenistic etc etc then you might have a point.

      But you cant. So unless you can agree amongst yourselves – first as Catholics then as Christians, dont expect to be able to persuade the rest of us.

      • Just to remind everyone, then, the Old Testament is the history of salvation, covering what happened and what God revealed. Laws that were specific to Israel and in there as well as the laws that Our Lord said he came to fulfill. Distinguishing between the two requires either that a person becomes a scripture scholar (Satan is quite accomplised at this and look at him, believes in God but refuses to serve) or put your trust in the divine and human institution Jesus set up when He died – the Church. In existence for 2000 years and still going. Any question you have about what you should and should not do – ask and you will find the answer. We don’t need to be experts in the Bible to be saved.

        • See there you go…Christ died…you missed out the rose again part…the most important part..

          • Ok, so I missed out the rose again part (which I say everytime I pray the Rosary and at Mass) in my very short summary. What is your point exactly?

        • LesleyNZ

          If you are talking about the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church today has no semblance of what the original Catholic Church was like 1500 years ago. Most Christians would have been affiliated to the Catholic Church. Man and his lust for power changed the Catholic church and it has become a controlling organisation. (Martin Luther saw this clearly). However the Catholic Church speaks with some truth at times. One major difference is the fact that doing good works plays a part in salvation. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2 v 8-9.
          God also says to make no graven image of Him.

          • The church started as a seed and now it’s a huge tree. God created a Church for the entire world to join – it had to change to accommodate that.

            The church Martin Luther started (the Lutherans) now agree with Catholics over how we are saved through grace. It ended up just being a bit of a misunderstanding by Luther. There’s a joint statement somewhere online.

            God did say in the OT not to make images and worship them as if they were divine (ie the golden calf). Then Our Lord was incarnated and the invisible God became visible through Christ. It was not possible to make images of God prior to the Incarnation because God up until that point could not be seen. It wasn’t until Islam came on the scene that the iconoclast heresy infected Christendom in the 8th and 9th Centuries and it was only in the East. Prior to that, all Christians had no problem with images.

  • Andrei

    Whale, a little Chrisrian theology for you.

    God does not have favourites, he loves us all equally.

    We are all without exception sinners and unworthy to enter into his presence – however despite our unworthyness we are all welcome in His Church!

    This may surprise you but when I attend the Divine Liturgy and when Lucia attends Mass we do not sit around discussing other peoples sins we worship the Lord and approach him with a contrite heart in the Eucharist.

    Everybody is a work in progress, Whale, and our focus as as we journey toward salvation is not the sins of others but our own.

    • Rodger T

      Orly? Got proof ur god exists ?

      I got proof mine does.

      • Andrei

        Logic fail – Jesus didn’t promise the end of all wicked people so your proposition falls over at the first hurdle

        http://youtu.be/Cf26s1i_his

        • Rodger T

          No worries Andrei ,I expected the humour to go over your head.

          When you understand why you reject all the other gods ,you will then understand why I don`t believe yours exists.
          We are both atheists ,I just go one god further.

          • unsol

            “We are both atheists ,I just go one god further”

            very interesting. I have never heard that statement before. Makes sense.

            I believe in God, but pretty sure it is not the same one that LM & Andrei believe in – I believe my God rules all others but I dont believe for a minute that He would condemn those who dont believe the same as I do as after all, only a sadist would create us, give us free will then say sorry, you didn’t choose me so while I love you, I don’t love you enough. Thankfully in my world I believe love wins and that is why I am pro gay marriage – dont understand it, but I accept it as I believe God created us all in his own image.

          • Andrei

            Matthew 10

            32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

            33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

          • Rodger T

            There`s the rub Andrei,your circular reasoning ensures you are unable to learn anything by reading only one book.

            Lucky for you ,you were born into a family that follows the real god, eh?
            Everyone else is doomed except you,don`t let reality burst your bubble.
            Fortunately humanity is throwing off the shackles of your backward religion.

          • unsol

            So what would you say to Rev Dr Margaret Mayman – a lesbian Minister of a Presbytarian church & has a various qualifications including theology etc.

            She is 100% for God, confesses Him before her congregation each week yet would dispute in great detail every one of your arguments – all back up by the Bible.

          • I’ve just been listening to Dr. Peter Kreeft (wrote The Handbook of Christian Apologetics, among many other titles) and he says that there is not much you can say to intellectuals, such as the lady you mention. Intellectuals are adept at spinning incredible spiderwebs of logic so that they don’t see the elephant in the room.

          • Gayguy

            Do you support slavery?

          • No.

          • Rodger T

            Intellectuals are adept at spinning incredible spiderwebs of logic so that they don’t see the elephant in the room.

            LoL, if that is not an admission of defeat ,I don`t know what is.

            Almost as good as Martin Luthers concession , “reason is the greatest enemy that faith has.”

          • Andrei

            I wouldn’t say anything to her

            How does what she teaches stack up against the teaching of the Church through the ages, the Bible and the Fathers of the Church?

            How does it stack up against what the Pope, the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Patriarchs of Moscow, Romania, Serbia etc , that is the senior Bishops as well as all the other Bishops who are the successors to the apostles teach?

            When it comes down to it she is almost certainly, given your description of her, completely out of step with the Bishops and the Church at large both past and present

          • Gayguy

            Do you support slavery??

    • I agree, with the caveat that admonishing sinners is one of the spiritual works of mercy. I have no issue with those that know what they’ve done is wrong and seek repentance and help, but I do have problems with those that want society to celebrate their sin. I pray for many of these people when I go to Mass, offer them up for their own salvation.

      • Andrei

        Sin is what it is Lucia, you cannot decide that a particular sin is no longer a problem because you are personally tempted by it – that is called wishful thinking.

        And seeking out a church who will give you blessing for sucumbing to your temptations rather than trying to work your way through managing them is a bit like a cancer patient going to a quack who promises a quck and easy cure IMHO

        • I’m trying to work out what to make of your comment, Andrei. I don’t disagree with what you’ve said, yet it seems you are disagreeing with mine.

          • Andrei

            No I’m reinforcing what you said, not contradicting it.

          • Ah, oh good. Funny how what is written can be misinterpreted.

      • unsol

        And there we disagree – most of society does not agree that same sex attraction & acting on it is sinning.

        And if it was such a grave thing then why didn’t God put it in the 10 Commandments? Serious question since you seem to have a theological perspective rather than just regurgitating from what you hear on Sundays.

        • Andrei

          Unsol – homosexuality is not something we talk about on Sundays, within the Church it is barely on the radar, it is just one temptation among in a plethora of temptations that we as fallen human beings are subject to and have to learn to negotiate.

          Its not easy – we all have our weaknesses, different people, different ones but we all have them and have to learn to recognize them.

          At this point in human history “sexuality” has been raised to the level of idolatry, how you acheive sexual pleasure a matter of importance. We live in a society that has its priorities and values wrong – nothing new in that either.

          • unsol

            Dont you mean no sex is on the radar! The likes of Shannon Etheridge has caused a massive stir for daring to bring up sexual relationships (between male & female spouses of course) in church (encouraging women to allow themselves to enjoy it/appreciate that God intended for it to be pleasurable).

            And is it my imagination or have you decided to change tact in how you approach these arguments? You seem gentler hence my earlier cynicism.

            If so I take back my digs….

          • JPII beat her by decades. He wrote Love and Responsibility before he became pope, that talks about the obligation for a man to sexually satisfy his wife.

          • unsol

            I’m not so sure about that – I hardly think that JPII ever talked about different positions, oral & anal sex & sex toys.

            And I cant say I would ever be interested in anything someone who deliberately ignored child rape & molestation for decades had to say

          • In Poland, accusations of abuse was how the Communists discredited people, especially priests. Therefore, JPII didn’t automatically believe accusations of abuse until there was actual proof. Not much changes in that respect.

          • unsol

            So giving each other pleasure via different positions, actions & toys is self-gratification?

            Well now we know how much fun you would be in the sack!

        • It is in the 10 commandments, under adultery, which covers all the sexual sins. If it’s not clear enough there, St Paul, as you probably know, is more explicit.

        • LesleyNZ

          We are talking about Christian Churches here and what they believe and accept – not what most of Society thinks. I know that these days society thinks as you have said they do – but Christian churches can be challenged as to what they believe in – especially when they err from Biblical truth.

    • unsol

      You have got to be kidding me.

      You do realise we can all go back and re-read the lovely things you have said on here?

      Given the vile things you have said on this blog & the degrading & contemptible way you often talk to your fellow man when they disagree with you, I am amazed you have the audacity to now indicate grace/that we all fall short but for the grace of God.

      Honestly Andrei, it is insulting to read such words coming from you. Such words belong to a decent, kind & empathetic person who seeks to strive the best in their own life rather than go on blogs and pass judgment on others that they will never meet.

      Worship is not confined to the 4 walls of a church/building/place to gather.

      It is a daily experience & is something that is completely futile if you are not walking the talk.

      So please dont say such things again as you are only inviting scrutiny into your own life where your hypocrisy is blatantly obvious to all.

      Unless of course you wish to retract some of the things you have said? I am sure God who demands we must love Him and love our neighbour would appreciate it.

    • Ronnie Chow

      Some would say that God HATES us all equally . Leaving us to blindly grope through a mist of ignorance and superstition . How about a hand up here , God .

      • The hand up is there, you just have to take it.

        God did not leave us blind and groping. Firstly, He wrote the basic laws on our hearts. Most the 10 Commandments are there, except for those that needed to be explicitly revealed. He also gave us minds to reason what is good and what is evil. Then, He gave Moses the 10 Commandments.

        2000 years ago, God physically entered human history and started a Church which still exists today.

        Best bet for you is ask God earnestly for help and you will get it.

    • We are already saved Andrei…you miss the point..already saved…that is the miracle of Christ…the fact that you think you need to “work” towards salvation shows that you have missed the whole point of Christ int he first place.

      • Andrei

        So now you are “saved” you can do whatever you want and it wont effect your eventual salvation?

        • LesleyNZ

          No such thing as an eventual salvation. Once saved always saved but once confessed not always possessed – even the devil believes in God.

        • Still not getting it…slow learner…once you are saved you cannot be unsaved…there is not a single person on earth who is sinless…the last one was nailed to a cross…show me a peson who says they do not sin and I will show you a liar…we all have sin and always will…but we are saved…accepting the plan of salvation is truly liberating once you get it…it doesn’t stop you sinning, but it lets you know that all sinners are capable of being saved.

          Lesley is right…there is no eventual salvation the choice of the word eventual shows you still think you can earn your way to salvation.

          • unsol

            And it gives you the incentive to be more mindful of what you are doing wrong & what you can do to do better. It is about wanting to strive to be the best you can – not so you get into Heaven, but because you worship God.

      • unsol

        Completely agree & that dear Cameron is why the likes of Andrei & LM will never accept a different way of thinking – their version of faith precludes them from the obvious – one God loves us all equally, we were created by God made in His own image, God does not make mistakes and salvation is not something you get to work towards. It is a choice of either choosing to receive it or not. From there you naturally strive to be the best person you can be because you love God and want to be more like him – gracious, kind & unconditionally loving.

        Many good people – aka Sunday Christians, will realise that you cannot earn your way into God’s favour as when it comes to Him no one can ever be good enough…but through His grace we are.

        • LesleyNZ

          Yes and to add to what you have said – once God starts a work in your life, He will complete it.

          • unsol

            We agree! Have you read Rob Bell’s Love Wins? I found it fascinating as it suggests that rather than Heaven being some place somewhere else at some distant time in the future, it could actually be here on earth (in the afterlife though I think). He also suggests that rather than God deciding whether we get through the Pearly Gates that it will be us who decides in that if we are open to God’s love we will constantly evolve so as to be able to handle Heaven. Conversely those who dont agree or hate, judge, persecute etc will reject Heaven as Heaven wont consist of what is normal to them (because it will be filled with grace, love etc).
            I’m being simplistic but it was very interesting as revolutionary compared to the scripture approach I have been used to hearing,

        • Andrei

  • Steve Taylor

    If love is unconditional, and if Christs love is unconditional – could someone please explain John 14:6?

    • unsol

      My understanding was always that this is where God still loves but God holds to account – you must accept Christ lived, died & rose again in order to receive the gift of salvation/eternal life.

      But then why would He allow children born into remote tribes or fiercely religious cultures that worship other gods who never have the chance in their life time to even find out about Christ. Seems unfair & a little sadistic.

      And then there is the whole age of reckoning – some say children who pass away under the age of 12 have automatic salvation but those over have to have actively sort/accepted it. So if you are a Hindu kid in the depths of India or a kid in the depths of Africa or a rainforest & happen to die at 12 years & 1 day do you get sent to the firey pit to face the man with the big pitch fork? Seems really cruel.

      For me the best understanding of all of this – if actually interested – is Rob Bell’s Love Wins…..which is in a nutshell the answer to your question…..despite all the grey bits it is God’s love that triumphs over all. Or at least that’s my view.

      • Steve Taylor

        Hi unsol,

        “you must accept Christ lived, died & rose again in order to receive the gift of salvation/eternal life”.

        This certainly reads like a condition to me, which I supoose is fair enough. If God is offering the salvation, then I guess God gets to make the rules about salvation.

        “But then why would He allow children born into remote tribes or fiercely religious cultures that worship other gods who never have the chance in their life time to even find out about Christ. Seems unfair & a little sadistic”

        I guess since we are not making the rules on something we are not offering, then quite how this plays out really isn’t up to us. We just get to decide as to whether we want to sign up, exercising our own personal soveriegnty, however, in regard to the issue you raise for those who may never hear the Gospel, it appears that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11), so if one accepts this premise, those who seek God find Him, regardless of personal circumstance. Deuteronomy 4: 29 seems to affirm this for the believer. I don’t pretend to know how this works out in a practical sense, but then if one understood everything about how God does stuff, then one would only require knowledge, as opposed to faith.

        I think this is where a lot of Christians I have met fall over: if they don’t understand something from a hermenutic or exisgesis perspective, or if something in the Scriptures offends them, they either reject the teaching, or make up a teaching in their own image.

        For example, I observe that while some people may disagree with Colin Craig, Craig seems anchored in his various position by virtue of his consistent understanding of his faith – he doesn’t “wobble”, so to speak.
        No chance of Craig committing Revelation 3: 15-16 I suspect.
        Lukewarm tea is a horrible drink to stomach.

        • unsol

          “appears that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature” – that is the premise of Rob Bell’s book Love Wins.

          But my argument is why create a species with free will knowing that that free will means many – most people in the world are not and never will be Christian – will not seek out or choose God as per the standard Christian interpretation. What kind of god does that make this version of God? Fairly sadistic if you ask me. I believe God is a loving God and that there is no way he would allow such a thing to occur, especially where children who are apparently too old to receive unconditional entry into Heaven,

          Re Colin Craig – every one is lukewarm on something as life has so much grey. He just comes across as firm in his beliefs on a hot topic that he thinks might appeal to middle NZ. But he’s a millionaire and well, there is the rich man vs Heaven & camel vs eye of the needle issue…bet he has applied many grey area approaches to accumulate the wealth he has.

  • Gayguy

    A quick question for all those people quoting bible passages in order to condemn homosexuality, and going on about how we must follow the old Testament as well as the new…

    Who among you supports the act of slavery? A simple yes or no will do.

    • unsol

      You will never get an answer as few want to acknowledge that slavery was accepted in the NT so will never acknowledge such passages as Deuteronomy 23:15-16:

      “Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee.”

      “He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.”

      Or they will, but argue context yet refuse to accept the context with which Paul spoke about homosexuality (men – apparently being Lesbian has always been OK as there is nothing written about female same sex couples…and the law seems to have followed in kind since Lesbianism has never been outlawed!).

      Paul’s words referred the rape of male slaves by their apparently hetero naughty Christian male masters (which makes me think of the old chestnut “I’m not gay but all the rugby boys I have are…Steve Gray?).

      He was talking to the Corinthians who were basically off their rockers.

      But few accept this or they weasel their way around & try & spin some other interpretation of it…which goes to show if Christians cant agree on such fundamental things themselves (plenty of straight Christians – like Whale are pro gay marriage….as evident by the banner in the original post) then why on earth would non Christians take their interpretations at face value?

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