77-44 Marriage Equality is here, and the sun rose this morning [VIDEOS]

Last night New Zealand became the 13th country in the world to legalise same-sex marriage.

A bill to legalise same-sex marriage has passed into law after its third reading in Parliament tonight, after months of emotional debate, parliamentary submissions, and passionate protests from people on either side of the issue.

New Zealand has become the 13th country in the world to enshrine marriage equality in law.

I am proud to have played my part in the passing of this bill into law. Here are some of the speeches from my friends made last night.

John Banks:

Maurice Williamson:

Kevin Hague:

Jami-lee Ross:

 


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  • I won’t be watching the speeches. We’ve hashed and rehashed this debate so many times, I’m glad to see the back of it.

  • Travis Poulson

    And society declines even further. What next, murderers getting away with murder and expecting compensation? oh wait…

    NZ is going down the shitter. That anti smacking law sure worked out well too didn’t it. One more nail in the coffin.

    • Bullshit Travis. So Jim and Bob can now get married. Happy for them. But let’s not pretend that makes society decline. Gay people will not be doing anything different now. All they have is a piece of paper that’s the same as yours. Are you seriously saying that will make society crumble? Get real.

      • Travis Poulson

        No I’m not saying that it will make society crumble, I’m saying it’s another contributing factor.

        The other problem is the way laws are deviously pushed through in stages by watering it down and sneaking it in piece by piece if the main goal will initially be too much of a shock to start with, oh and of course the flip flop pollies:

        METIRIA TUREI
        :

        “Marriage as understood in our society, and as formalised in law, is a specific culturally and historically bound institution. …This bill does not affect the Marriage Act. It does not change in any way the structure, the validity, of the institution of marriage.

        1st Reading Civil Union Bill

        TIM BARNETT:

        “The Civil Union Bill is an acceptable alternative; marriage can remain untouched.”

        1st Reading Civil Union Bill

        JOHN KEY:

        I don’t think there’s a real need to change the current legislation or to adopt new legislation.

        2008

        The lies are so thick in the air I can hardly breathe.

        • Polish Pride

          Or they changed their minds on hearing some of the arguments for and against.

          • Travis Poulson

            Or the next election is going to be a close one….

          • It will be close but not because of the marriage bill

          • BJ

            Thats your opinion but I know many National voters that are disgusted with the way this has been rushed through

          • unsol

            So Winnie = Labour

            Colin Craig & Act = National

            Abstaining = could = Labour

            Throwing your toys out of the cot just because you lost means you are most likely going to end up with egg on your face.

            Although the whinging on here if Labour got back in because of this would be priceless…hell, it’s almost enough to make me sell a little of my soul to the devil & vote left just to see this happen.

          • LabTested

            ..and the Epsom vote with John Banks? That now really comes into play. People who opposed this law can vote against Banks & for National.

          • unsol

            So you reckon National will be the winner regardless?

            Who is likely to be the Epsom Nat MP though? Still Paul Goldsmith? He voted yes!

          • LabTested

            I respectively suggest that you missed the point. There seems to be a lot of emotions on this issue. People will feel that they can vote against Banks. That does not mean that they are in favour of Goldsmith. They can take out their ‘annoyance’ on Banks without voting for a Labour government

          • Anonymous4001

            Epsom is a lot more liberal that you think. I would say a majority of locals would support marriage equality. There’s more to Epsom than the old biddies who attend St Michael, St Lukes and St Marks

          • LabTested

            I think it is a mistake to assume that people who did not support this law are either old biddies or religious or both. Last election I voted for John Banks through gritted teeth & I know other people who did like wise. I think some people are looking for a reason not to vote for Banks, & for them this will be a perfect excuse.

          • unsol

            ?????

            So how are they going to do this without putting Labour back into govt?

            Labour has coalition numbers, National does not. Like it or not it is always one of them that is the main party in govt,.

            So what are these options?

            Act – could = National
            Conservatives – could = National

            National – could = National

            Maori – could = National or Labour

            Winnie = Labour, Greens & Mana

          • TomTom

            I’d sell my soul to vote Labour cos that is how much I love Louisa Walls. If only there wasn’t the rest of them in that bunch.

          • Rushed through? Come on now, let’s have some honesty here.

          • Gayguy

            And yet next election when the dust has settled, they will vote for National. And so will most on here saying they won’t.

          • LesleyNZ

            No they won’t.
            .

          • LesleyNZ

            My vote and all my family’s vote are up for grabs – but who?

          • unsol

            How silly. Just abstain as if you aren’t going to vote right then you will have to vote left wont you.

            But if you don’t vote then don’t expect to feel you have the right to have a say on anything for the next 3 years.

          • Polish Pride

            “But if you don’t vote then don’t expect to feel you have the right to have a say on anything for the next 3 years.”

            The myth expoused to get you to vote and provide validity to the system i.e. voting is consent.

            Ahh that old chestnut. No, If you don’t vote, complain as much as you want to, shout from the rooftops. You’re not responsible in any way shape or form. After all it wasn’t you that put them in there, it was everyone that did vote and they are the ones responsible!!

          • unsol

            Individuals make up a collective so the collective, if they abstain as a whole, become a bunch of uncommitted complainers who have no right to objection.

            You have to look at cause & effect – no vote – nothing changes, vote, something could change.

            Another option is to be proactive, set up a party yourself & convince people of your ideas.

            In fact PP I think that is your calling :p

          • Polish Pride

            In fact PP I think that is your calling :p

            It wouldn’t be fair on the other parties if I did that :p
            If enough people wake up and see the system for what it is it could be a real game changer. What happens if only 25% of eligible voters vote in an election. Does the govt have a mandate?
            They will think they will. What if protests start when they try to introduce policy and opinion polls are largely against policy, do they have a mandate then. It could be a very nervous time to be a politician.
            My time is better spent putting the ideas into a cohesive alternative that shows the failings of the current system and better alternatives that would work for everyone but that noone has the time to sit down and determine for themselves. Started a book, need to do a blog, need to mow the lawns.

          • unsol

            Cohesive alternatives – won’t see the light of day in amongst this garbage. Best to go for the book & your own blog option. I havent written anything for ages – been quite happy to just comment on here although I am tiring of this too (most issues, not just this one). It’s like a venomous web that sucks you in & well, end of the day what does commenting achieve – nothing.

            But reading – lots. Best to discern the good from the garbage & just read methinks. :)

          • Polish Pride

            I like to think of it as a training ground. The ideas I am talking about challenge the very system we have today. I need to be able to communicate effectively and formulate arguments in a non confrontational manner. And respond to those who will defend this system even when it is failing them…. and its a pretty good training ground :)
            It is also good to have a few intelligent people around that process new ideas and concepts on the basis of right and wrong rather than the default of left vs right.

            You also challenge peoples thinking and that is incredibly valuable in my book (not my actual book just figuratively:)
            .

          • unsol

            Thanks & same to you….we’ve said this before :)

            I am definitely not left wing, but I do have a liberal view on some issues…and I do at times tend to lean towards your kind of thinking & even that fascist 2nd Amendment. But I try to balance it out with my empathy for people – everyone makes mistakes so I think there has to be a balance.

            Well get onto that blog OK! Lawns etc – like housework they defy gravity so just ignore them :)

          • LesleyNZ

            I will vote – but for who is the question.

          • Do it the way I do it. Pick the best of the worst. I’m not particularly enamoured with the National Party, but there isn’t any other party that would be doing a job I’d like better. So National it is.

          • unsol

            Set up your own party & convince NZers of your ideas

            Or you have these options:

            Winnie = Labour

            Abstaining – could = Labour

            Greens, Mana & Labour = Labour

            Colin Craig & Act = National

            National – could = National if the party vote is large enough.

          • Citizen

            I am a social conservative. My vote has been futile at every election: Futile to effect any changes/ oppose changes that I consider (and many others also) of importance, extreme. If I vote for Colin, nothing will be achieved. Also he is not really Conservative as I understand the word. I have decided that I am going to vote Green, Because that is the most destructive vote I can think of. I want to see the whites of my opponents’ eyes now.

          • Abstaining just gifts the election to the left. But seriously who are they going to vote for? Labour? Greens? Conservatives? The Conservatives are particularly dishonest because they won’t repeal it.

            Removing your vote for a social issue is just silly, when there are so many other more important things to do out there.

          • I agree. These sorts of issues generate a lot of noise, but in terms of running a country and making sure we can afford all those DPB, sickness and unemployment benefits on top of education, health and policing costs, we really need to do something much more critical than giving some gay people the chance to say “I do”.

          • LesleyNZ

            Whale – you may think I am silly but social issues are just as important to me. I don’t know who to vote for now. National no longer “fits” my world view. There are MPs in National who I think are just great. But they are let down by the “jokers” in National (and some List MP’s). National has been taken over by the liberal right. I am conservative right. There is no party that I feel I can vote for right now. This is the result of our not so democratic system – MMP.

          • So here is the thing, about half of National voted for the bill and half against…almost all of Labour voted for it, all of Winstons against…so maybe you can vote for Winston Peters

          • LesleyNZ

            Hmmmm – not sure.

          • unsol

            I agree – it’s merely indicative of having tantrum & throwing your toys out of the cot.

            Might make them feel better briefly, but then what?

            Just means a massive mess to clean up….6 years old & we are just starting to get stuck into the crap the 9 years of Helen put us through.

            And you are right – no one repealed the reforms of the 1980s, or women’s right to divorce, work outside the home, vote & no one will repeal this.

          • Changeiscoming

            Come on Cam you have been around politics long enough to know that it is far harder to repeal a law than it is to pass the law in the first place. Take for example benefits, once people are receiving them how hard is it to stop them? Very hard.

          • starboard

            My protest vote will be going to Colin Craig. Nationals gotten to arrogant and out of touch…again.

          • unsol

            And who do you think he will go into coalition with? Labour??? Nope, National!

          • starboard

            thats right smug arse ( gee you’re not as silly as I thought ) and CC will be the handbrake National so sorely needs. ” Colin, will this be ok”? Just a minute while I think it through John….no, sorry John it just wont do. Lets have a referendum and let the public decide ”

            …no more gayness..no more browning down of the masses..more reality and listening to the majority.

          • unsol

            haha so you think Colin Craig will force the govt to repeal…when it would have been law for over a year? When the world hasn’t collapsed & life has continued on as normal? That is hilarious!

          • starboard

            sorry ? where did I say that ? Where was any mention of me saying CC would repeal the act ? You’re a rabid loon! Bawhahaha! Nutbar.

          • unsol

            Now I want you to go back, read your comment & think about your answer to this question very carefully: what is the outcome you want from a referendum? To accept the Bill should have passed or to repeal it?

            My guess the latter. Case and point dickhead.

          • unless CC doesn’t get 5% nor an electorate seat, in which case you just gifted your vote to the left. Protest votes only work if your protest counts.

          • starboard

            Im confident he will..NZ has had enough of shithead pollys giving them the bird..they want a change…we thought we may have got it when clarkula was given the arse but no…more of the same from smiley boy.

          • Gayguy

            Because in your hate filled world only straight white males are allowed a voice.

          • Mr_V4

            I’m a bit worried about a handbrake being applied to National.
            a) They’re already in danger of being passed by continental drift in terms of detectable movement.

            b) Brownlee is a fairly good anchor.

          • Gayguy

            Good for you. Even though you are throwing away your vote as they will never see the inside of the House, good that you will stand by your hate even in defeat.

          • TomTom

            You presume to talk on the behalf of all your family. Nice.

          • LesleyNZ

            I do – they take advice – and my friends – especially so in the upcoming AKLD local body election

          • Gayguy

            Any far right religious zealot party perhaps?

          • LesleyNZ

            Where have you been today? I am fussy who I vote for.

          • Gayguy

            I have been existing in the real world. Working. interacting with flesh and blood people etc… as opposed to living on line.

          • unsol

            How silly – so you claim all the right wingers are going to vote for who exactly? Colin Craig & Act? Who will do everything to ensure they get a chance to be in govt with the Nats, who would NEVER form a coalition with Labour?

            What a ridiculous premise.

          • BJ

            Winston’s looking particularly attractive

          • unsol

            Haha that would be funny. And of course that means Labour-led coalition by default as the Nats won’t work with him.

            Question is how much damage to the economy do you think Labour can do in 3 years, or would you continue to vote for them via Winnie until someone changes the Marriage Act back….which isn’t ever going to happen.

          • Polish Pride

            Winston’s looking particularly attractive

            Wow BJ he’s certainly not my type, but a few qusetions for you….. :)
            1st – have you been drinking this morning?
            2nd I thought being gay wasn’t contageous?
            3rd were you imagining him in heels?

          • Travis Poulson

            …..

          • Travis Poulson

            What’s ridiculous is you asserting I made a claim about who was going to vote where. And “right wingers” don’t have anyone to vote for anyway. Both major parties ride the fence so hard they have splinters between their legs. What we need in this country is a decent conservative party but one that is based on conservative values not religious ones.

          • unsol

            Potatoe potarrtoe Travis. If you & your -so-called majority abstain, throw your vote away or vote left the outcome will be the same – a Labour led coalition.

            End of the day throwing your toys out of the cot just because you lost on an issue that has no impact on you, your life whatsoever just means you will end up with egg on your face.

            Gotta look at the big picture – you & others claim this was never a big deal, that we have more important things to be worrying about yet now you a trying to make is a MASSIVE deal by giving the election to Labour?

            Silliness!

          • Travis Poulson

            My so-called majority? there you go again. I said no such thing. Start again.

          • unsol

            Nooooo. I meant your so-called majority as in most of those who will agree with you on here.

            Stop being tetchy!

          • Travis Poulson

            If that’s what you call tetchy you should go and review some of your own comments over the past few weeks.

          • unsol

            Oooh touche Travis

            Interesting that those on this opposing side claim I’m being tetchy or whatever yet never blink an eye when the comments I am responding to are far far worse.

            Any tetchiness I have demonstrated as been more than deserved.

            And you have side-stepped the issue.

          • Travis Poulson

            So have you. Accompanied by an explanation for justifying your tetchiness.

            “Any tetchiness I have demonstrated as been more than deserved”

            Yes, but we all have differing thresholds for what we considering deserving don’t we.

          • unsol

            You made a comment, I called you on it, you side-stepped…..yet where did I side-step?

            Differing thresholds? Yes that is clear when it comes to this issue there is no threshold for comments who oppose ME but God forbid anyone who dares to bring up the facts or question ludicrous statements based on the usual crazy & myths where from religious nutters or right wing fascists.

            Your comment that this Bill somehow contributes to the moral decline is up there.

            And it seem an unusual thing for you to say – so what has changed? Are you just sick of this debate, you were trying to be a flamer or is it that you truly think that this is an issue that will have devastating consequences for mankind? If so why, on what basis. Why are you against 2 people of the same gender getting married?

            Because it impacts ‘traditional marriage’? Well since you are so familiar with my comments then no doubt you have read the history lesson I have given others on here about what that really means. If religious – same thing….but I suspect that isn’t your cup of tea!

          • Travis Poulson

            trying to be a flamer? good grief, have you been hanging around teenager gaming forums? So now an opposing opinion isn’t tetchy, but “flaming”.

            Jesus Christ.

          • unsol

            HA! If that side step was any bigger you’d be hitting Red Alert!!!

            I asked if you were being a flamer – a fair call given the lack of maturity on here at times (and some commentators are actually very young) – in amongst other questions.

            That does it. Politics IS your vocation – sign yourself up boy. I expect policies on all major portfolios by the end of the week…and if you’re lucky I may even vote for you.

          • Travis Poulson

            Stop dribbling on. You’re asking me to answer something I’ve gone over dozens of times in the past last year, but unlike yourself and others from both sides of the argument I don’t rise to the bait of gay marriage posts to repeat myself on a daily basis. (excluding today)

          • unsol

            Dribble – Jesus…..that’s rich coming from the person who claims the apocalypse is about to come to fruition!

            Good grief. You made a comment based on assumption that my reply to Lesley re her votes being up for grabs included you. I have not been able to see where I replied directly to you on this.

            I took your assumption as being indicative of your vote also being up for grabs.

            So is it? Are you going to change your vote as a result of this election and if so, who to? What is it you think you might achieve?

            I would argue very little as if you don’t support National and/or their coalition partners then Labour will get back in. Is this what you want?

            Bearing in mind that murder will always be legislated against as the State has a habit of legislating against all acts that are deemed harmful whether to oneself or others

            Conversely gay marriage will never be repealed as it does not harm anyone.

          • Travis Poulson

            “that’s rich coming from the person who claims the apocalypse is about to come to fruition!”

            That load of shit was as far into your comment as I was prepared to go.

            Making shit up again.

          • unsol

            “And society declines even further. What next, murderers getting away with murder and expecting compensation? oh wait…”

            Case and point.

            Maybe I used a little artistic license when I said apocalypse, but at the very least it was melodramatic.

            Anyway I have wasted enough time on this crap today…and thankfully this is the end of the road where ME is concerned. It’s done. Woohoo.

          • Travis Poulson

            “artistic license” that’s a nice and tame way of explaining exaggerated bullshit. I must keep that in my arsenal for future reference.

          • unsol

            Aren’t you all daggers today…that time of month aye? Look whose true colours are showing now.

            “society declines even further” and “Or the next election is going to be a close one….”

            Like I said, may not be an apocalypse but such comments are merely indicative of throwing a tantrum and at the very least, a tad melodramatic.

            Don’t like it then don’t say stupid things.

          • Travis Poulson

            Great, so now it’s not “tetchiness”, not even “flaming”, but “that time of month”,”throwing a tantrum” and “saying stupid things” for opinions you don’t like. Any more of your kosh-like regurgitated one liners you’d like to share?

            I think you’ve been asleep at the keyboard for as long as I’ve been commenting on this blog otherwise you wouldn’t be accusing me of suddenly showing my true colours.

          • unsol

            You mean teachersrock & gayguy? Nope I can’t think of any others, but they do come in rather useful as one must always adjust their approach according to their audience…

          • Travis Poulson

            ” I must use this bait again as it is clearly a winner….”

            lol, if only you knew…..

          • unsol

            Awww don’t be sad, I’m only playing….but as for my memory only going back a few months….HA, more like a few days! Motherhood does that to you, so I have to try & wade through past posts & the millions of comments to try & find the comment I know or suspect was there.

            300??? I was aiming for 500 but there just hasn’t been enough takers…the best sparkers (gayguy, LM & Andrei) have all been MIA, Highly disappointing. Unless of course the night owls take over.

            And sorry to disappoint, but you will always be mild mannered in my view. Your real true colours have come through far too often for me to think otherwise. Just accept it, just like WO & Petal you’re one of the good guys :)

            As for the issue – I have never been able to gage where you stand as you seem to like playing devils advocate. But it’s a moot point now.

            Time to get the whip cracking on smashing the left. I see they have come up with a real beauty in terms of new policy – cheaper power for all. Hooray. Can’t wait. Ha!

            Ooh this will be 309. I reckon it still has plenty of play left – 400 is a real possibility.

          • Travis Poulson

            Disarming me with a compliment, I like it. As for the cheaper power, they’re trying to kill 2 birds with one stone: hope that it overshadows the fact that $300,000 homes aren’t a reality, and undermine the SOE floats.

          • unsol

            Wicked ways of women Travis & even though it was blatant ego massaging, I know it made you smile…haha (evil laugh). :)

            Only 370 now. Oh well I gave it a good bash yesterday.

            Yes this policy with its so-called 2 pronged attack should have been a very clever move, but its inevitable flaws (it is the left wing after all!) will ensure their grand plans never come to fruition.

            See you!

          • Ooooh. Travis for PM!

          • Gayguy

            Good God no! I love NZ too much for a disaster like that!

      • LesleyNZ

        After watching a bit of 7 Sharp last night – yes it is already crumbling but you don’t see it like I do and you don’t see further down the line. “Bridesmen” are not normal. What a mixed up world my little grandson has got to grow up in. But his Granny will be there………………………

        • Polish Pride

          So get rid of your TV and a whole new and normal world where people think for themselves will emerge.

          • Yes! I agree with this. Turn off your TVs, cancel your newspaper subscriptions.

          • LesleyNZ

            I love UK channel. I have cancelled my Herald subscription as I can rely more on the blogs like this for the TRUTH.

          • LesleyNZ

            That is a stupid thing to say.

        • I understand that you think gay people undermine your way of life. But my point is that the marriage equality legislation didn’t make gay people *appear* out of nowhere. They were here already. They were already doing what they were doing, and will continue to do what they do tomorrow. If there is any societal decline that gay people are responsible for, then the fact that they get to have a legal document saying “married” vs a legal document saying “civil partners” is simply a change in paperwork. Meantime, those gay people are marauding the streets, convincing your children to turn gay, bum raping each other in public, and… no hang on, they are just living their lives today and tomorrow the same way as they lived them yesterday. There is no practical real-life difference to this, other than treating gay people the same as non-gay people when they want to get married. Instead of getting a different form, they now get the same form. That really is the extent of it. Nothing else has changed.

        • if he turns out to be a pillow biter will you be going to his wedding?

    • unsol

      What the hell, that has got to be a wind up – I have never seen you write such tripe Travis!!!

      As for anti smacking – it is the s59 Amendment not anti smacking. That was the media’s term. How can you be so gullible? And how has it changed anything? No one has been brought before the courts for lightly smacking their child.

      All that law did was remove the right to defend abuse, closed fists, hoses, pipes, branches etc as reasonable force. Take the curly head guy who got prosecuted & made a song & dance about it – if you look at the facts of that case, he had lost the plot & was being abusive. There is no way anyone seeing an adult yelling & pulling their child off their bike onto the ground would think or should think that is acceptable parenting. NO WAY.

      It has had no impact on good parents.

  • GregM

    Good. It’s time.

  • sheppy

    Can we please talk about something else now this is FINALLY over?

    • Gazzaw

      I wish sheppy. It won’t take five minutes to get another lefty MP’s dopey private bill proposal up before the House. Legalising the sale of crack in primary schools or something equally fatuous. It allows the ‘opposition’ to distract the government from the real business of running the country and gives the MSM another lefty champion of the downtrodden to fawn over.

      • Auto_Immune

        Perhaps. Though chances are, unlike the marriage bill, most lefty private bills will be shot down at the first reading.

    • Yep. Just go to any of the other 30+ posts that appear here today, tomorrow and most other days.

  • TomTom

    You should watch Maurice Williamson’s speech though. It takes a different tack and it was pretty hilarious. A summary is here – http://yournz.org/2013/04/18/maurice-williamson-on-marriage-bill-be-ye-not-afraid/

    And maybe Winnies if you need to laugh at something so fucking stupid.

    • LesleyNZ

      Maurice lacked in wisdom last night.

      • Random66

        I honestly think he lacks it full stop.

      • So you think Pakuranga has suddenly decended into hell this morning? (no, slightly incorrect there – Pakuranga was alive and well at 7:49 this morning)

        • LesleyNZ

          No I don’t use fire and brimstone words but I now know a bit more about Maurice Williamson and what makes him tick. I never knew he was so anti the Christian belief. It is a shame that some sent him fire and brimstone emails etc as it makes them look silly and puts all us other Christians into the same category.

          • If you were brought up a Catholic you’d be too…but don;t be so judgmental Lelsey…if he was so anti-christianity why was my Mother the god-mother of his twins?

        • Gazzaw

          Whether Maurice is alive and well on 9 November 2014 is another matter. Alive maybe, well……??

      • unsol

        Lesley I would argue that the only people who have lacked wisdom in this debate have been those on the opposing side.

        No one has given any facts to back up their opinions as to why they oppose this Bill, instead most of them have merely preached conjecture based on emotive, unsubstantiated & nonsensical garbage that a pre-schooler could easily dismantle, disregard & dismiss as general crazy & myths.

        But it is done. Your side lost.

        Question is, how are you going to respond? One’s character is always defined by how they respond to losing, not how they celebrate their winnings.

        I suggest you accept it with grace & dignity & just move on.

        • LesleyNZ

          My worldview has no winners or losers.

          • Dave

            Lesley. I am straight as they come, happily married second time around, nice kids on both sides of our relationship, and 2 grandchildren. Personally, I don’t care about the bill, Gay people were here before the bill, they lived together, went out in public (god forbid!!) before the bill, worked, and lived in the communities we all live in. NOTHING will change because of this bill, they can just get married, thats all. ITs important to them, but its not going to create more gay people / couples, just a few more HAPPILY married people. If the church was strategic, they might have seen this as the answer to the declining marriage rate.

            Please, accept, move on, and lets as a country focus on improving NZ’s productivity, reduce the dependency attitude, improve the health system, and improve the education system. God forbid, these things just might affect ordinary Kiwis 100 times more than giving Gay couples the right to marry and have a piece of paper saying they are a married couple!!

          • Gayguy

            But it helps t have the truth and facts on your side if you are going to denounce someone else.

          • LesleyNZ

            I am still looking for your gay gene. Where is it? Truth and facts are important. I have them on my side if that is what you want to call it.

          • Gayguy

            Been in print for a number of years now.

            And no, you do not have facts or truth on your side.

      • Gayguy

        Maurice demonstrated amazing wisdom and also how pathetic much of the opposition has been.

        • LesleyNZ

          You are a bit behind Gayguy – you have a lot of comments to go through. Maurice was foolish to marginalise the Christian belief like he did because of a few crazy emails and phone calls he had. He let his mouth run away with him. Now he is on You Tube/internet forever.

          • Gayguy

            Yep and he will be praised by many many ,many people.

          • LesleyNZ

            Seeing Maurice is so fond of Bible quotes: Ecclesiastes 7:5 (ESV)
            It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools.

          • Gayguy

            And MAN there are some fools that oppose marriage equality.

  • TomTom

    This is so incredibly awesome. Last night, we all crammed into the flat with the best telly to watch ParliamentTV, an unique occasion itself – but when the vote happened. Wow – massive cheers and hugging by gay and straight people alike.

    Hopefully one day, I will be married to the person I love. Now I just gotta find him!

    (PS That thing on Breakfast yesterday with the guys in bridal dresses. That was definitely kind of ick for me. I don’t know why they didn’t just dress up proper in a suit.)

    • Gazzaw

      TomTom, this changes nothing. Sure, the law says that you’re legally married but societal attitudes have not changed one little bit. If anything they have hardened as the majority see another piece of unwanted social engineering dumped on them purely for political expediency. You will reap what you have sown – don’t think for a minute that this legislation will stop the sniggers and the discrimination.

      Personally, it doesn’t worry me one iota but there is going to be a lot of disillusionment out there. Just like the smacking and prostitution bills this is going to be a social disaster. You can’t legislate for attitude.

      • Polish Pride

        “You will reap what you have sown – don’t think for a minute that this legislation will stop the sniggers and the discrimination.” We fear that which we do not understand. It is our weakness and we ridicule to hide that discomfort.

        Hey TomTom – not all of us…… Congrats It was an awesome moment in New Zealands History. Very proud to be a kiwi today!

        • BJ

          The way to acceptance is to educate and acknowledge differences. The way to rejection is to bully and force – ME is the latter and was not necessary to enjoy equality with heterosexuals – those that think ME was the way to go are your own worst enemies and this will undo much of the work done on understanding and breaking down the prejudices of the past. Society will lament this in the future

          • Polish Pride

            always been a fan of one law for all myself. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander and so on.
            Don’t let it get to you BJ. In time you’ll realise nothing in your life changed because of this.

      • TomTom

        Societal attitudes have changed, you idiot. This bill didn’t pass in a fucking vacuum. About 65% of MPs voted for this bill, around about the same numbers seen in polls over the last year or two.

        And perhaps you should be so wise as to listen to John Banks talk about his attitudes changed over the years and how he recognised that his previous stances and the way he behaved towards gay people was perhaps wrong.

        • Gazzaw

          TomTom. Firstly I am not an idiot. Personal abuse gets you nowhere here. You have been hanging around long enough to know better.

          If you had read my post properly instead of going for an immediate rant you would have noticed that I said that the outcome does not concern me one iota. My stance has been constant that over the last three weeks MPs ‘consciences’ have been totally at odds with their constituents. I would go as far as to say that their ‘consciences’ reflect their concerns are more about outcomes in 2014. 65% of MPs favoured the change, public polling was equally divided.

          Love your comment about John Banks, new friend of the rainbow faction. I am right wing but have never listened to John banks either as an MP or as mayor. The man is not to be respected or trusted.

          I have asked Cam twice to run a simple Yes/No poll on this issue and nothing has happened. I will repeat the challenge. Give us a Yes/No poll on whether we agree with the outcome.

          • unsol

            MPs dont have consciences!!! Moral compass walks out the back door the second they go through the front door into govt.

          • TomTom

            Context, sorry. I missed the last bit. I do apologise for being a cunt to you/the cunty tone of that comment

            MPs conscience votes, I do believe, have been in concert with their constituents, apart from a couple cases. I justify this on the fact that about ten MPs changed their votes to against on the second reading and that two MPs changed their votes to for on the third. That’s about ten percent of the parliament. Clearly the rest received feedback that indicated to the MPs that their positions were largely consistent with their constituents.

            One case I do note is an exception is that bloody Woodhouse. He is a Catholic btw. He claims that he represents the interests of the Dunedin North electorate, which largely favours marriage equality (due to the student population and the liberal effect of the uni). There’s no point in swanning round pretending to be an electorate MP when he doesn’t acknowledge the lobbying by those who were for this. David Clark (who is a minister) did.

        • Gayguy

          Do not for one second believe that Banks has changed. He is doing this for votes, not because he believes for one moment in gay rights. He is still the same man who spouted hate speech in 1986. He is just better at hiding it now.

    • LesleyNZ

      Maggie Thatcher’s funeral – much better.

  • i tried to watch but couldnt really stomach it. for me it was a bunch of over emotional soppy people talking more about themselves than about their constituents. dont get me wrong…im not anti queer… just anti bullshit.

    I saw Mojo Matthers get up and have a lovely little soppy story about how her daughter was queer and took her lover to the formal and so on…. yeah good on her. Didnt really have anything to do with the debate. was more of a plug for her daughter i think. And then she went on to emotionally tell how kids were bullied at her school in her day for being SUSPECTED of being gay and how this ‘equal marriage’ would somehow stop that bullying.

    like i said, im not anti gay but geez parliamentary tv was just a soppy bunch of theatrics for me.

    • Travis Poulson

      The latter part of your comment touched on what everyone on the pro gay marriage bandwagon fail to realize: it won’t give equality at school, it won’t give them equality anywhere else, just in their own minds and on paper. It won’t stop kids being picked on at school, and it won’t change the minds of people that don’t agree with homosexuality for whatever reasons they have.

      Equality is nothing more than an illusion. It won’t stop discrimination.

      Equality is not something that can be legislated. When will you politicians wake up.

      • TomTom

        The reason why kids pick on others is because they pick up the attitude from their parents and elders around them. It ain’t the kids fault that they have these notions that being gay is something different, weird, it’s their parents. Once those kids start thinking for themselves, they eventually figure out that it not a big fucking deal.

        You don’t have to agree with homosexuality – it’s not like you’re being forced to have gay sex or get married to someone of the same gender, is it?

        • unsol

          So true TT – but you wont get any acknowledgement of that one here.

          After all, children emulate their parents, so if all they see is ignorant ill-informed people lacking in any compassion, empathy & a moral compass then how can we possibly expect their children to be any different?

        • Travis Poulson

          What’s gay sex got to do with it? I thought this was about gay marriage.

      • Random66

        Agree Travis. Yesterday I was booking a motel for our guys to stay in while completing a contract up in Auckland and when looking on line at ‘Wot if’ etc I was amazed at the number of 4 or 5 star motels listing ‘gay friendly’ amongst their selling points, e.g. free wi-fi, laundry, fully serviced kitchen etc. I realized at that point the gays have it all up hill. Never would you see a motel saying ‘black people friendly’ or ‘hetro-friendly’ or even ‘female friendly’, but here you see multiple establishments feeling the need to say ‘gay friendly’. The gulf between gay people being treated as normal, even though they can marry, is so wide and entrenched that I don’t believe it will ever be considered anythng other than different (and by some wrong). So while they may be clapping themselves on the back today because they are under the illusion they will now be treated with equality and respect, I think they will find the reality will be different and a piece of paper won’t change that.

        • The gay demographic has been recognised for some decades as being more affluent (on average) and worthwhile to market to directly.

          • TomTom

            There was a joke going round that all gays should go on strike for a month and stop shopping/buying stuff – and then you’d see how’s the economy holds up without us…

          • Travis Poulson

            Business as usual I would imagine.

          • Dave

            So tell me TomTom, if you are not going to shop for a month, how would you survive ?? And please remember, to be effective, you cant stock up before hand, that only shifts the consumerism patterns, so how, what you eat, what will you drink, where will you get the essentials, things like milk, loo paper, etc.

          • TomTom

            I do deserve that one. By “stuff” I mean ‘luxury’ items like high end clothing, furniture, whatever. I don’t know why, but a lot of gays and lesbians are picky about that stuff.

            Me? I can barely afford to eat, what with my preference to be drunk whenever I’m not studying. Or even whilst I’m studying.

          • Agent BallSack

            The pink dollar props up the ecstasy market in NZ?

        • there is a word for that…..patronizing?

          • unsol

            Good call!

        • Mr_V4

          Nonsense, sometimes the establishments that list that is because the owners themselves are gay. So maybe its an issue within the gay community itself that still feels the need to advertise this?
          Which way does causation flow here?

      • You are so right Travis. Gay people will continue to be 2nd class citizens for the foreseeable future.

        However.

        I see nothing wrong with having them treated the same in legislation.

        It started there when women got the vote. In legislation. You can be assured that there were a lot of people, including women, at the time, that didn’t think that was a good idea, and society would crumble forever after…

        …oh wait

        ;)

        • i think that gay people make themselves to be second class citizens. I think that the vocal loud mothed ones who love the sound of their own voice spoil it for the ones who just want to get on with being gay.

          • unsol

            I agree. Just the same as religious zealots ruin the prospect of a loving & just God for everyone.

          • Random66

            It’s the ‘just’ part the rest of us are concerned with.

          • unsol

            So you are concerned with making sure people know God is a loving God? Nice.

            In terms of God being “just” – you have no authority to tell others what that is.

            THAT is the point of this Bill and THAT is why it passed.

            End of the day everything comes out in the wash.

            But question is, are you so certain that you are so right that you are prepared to bet your salvation on it?

            I am.

          • Random66

            Oh get off your soap box unsol. You constantly whinge about how others behave on this blog towards you, yet you are the one who is usually the first to bitch and groan and make personal derogative comments towards those who don’t agree with you. You also have an inability to process information accurately. I never told others, or assumed to have authority to be able to tell others, what ‘just’ is. I did say I was concerned with the ‘just’ part, as I would think all christians are. Then to show you have absolutely no understanding of what I said you spout some rubbish about me being so sure I’m right that would I bet my salvation on it. What the hell are you on? I never said anything like that, nor did I say anything to warrant that stupid comment of yours and if you had any real knowledge of biblical truth you would know that my belief in whether homosexual marriage is right or not is definitely not a salvation issue. My initial comment was in response to yours when you said, ‘…loving & just God’. You can’t have the loving without the just, take that as you will.

          • unsol

            OTT! Looks like I touched a nerve….

            Well you can rest easy & put your blunt little claws away random. There is a big difference between calling people cunts, faggots, bum bandits etc and being bitchy, snarky or mocking someone & their ridiculous stance on things. It is a fine line but there is one there.

            Clearly you have felt that when I made a point about the arshole comments from arseholes on here, that I was meaning you….well, offence can only be taken not given & I don’t give a flying crap about bitchy comments from an uptight religious zealot…but you know, if the shoe fits…

            As for your comment “it’s the ‘just’ part the rest of us are concerned with” – this was a snarky sanctimonious little comment so I called you on it.

            You are claiming you are right on this issue. You always do. You always assume that you answers is direct from the mouth of God when really, nothing could be further from the truth.

            And as for claiming to have biblical authority on the matter – I can’t see it. Sorry. The only claim I think you have is swallowing the same old regurgitated bigoted hypocritical crap that is said in church. You have no objectivity & it is clear that like so many zealots you have simply been an obedient little sheep & taken someone else’s word for it, as opposed to really doing your own work to read the Bible, look at the context & compare it with historical & archeological evidence.

            if you had been objective then why are you not out on the streets protesting for traditional marriage – legalised pedophilia – to be reintroduced? Why are you not protesting to get divorce made illegal, to remove women’s vote, to reinstate slavery, to stone people to do death for mixing fibres or crops, to be celibate UNLESS people have no self-control, to only have short hair – long hair was considered unnatural & unGodly? Seems a little hypocritical to me…

            But since you are so certain in your version of OUR faith then I will ask the question again: are you prepared to bet your salvation on it? If not then why? Because there is a flicker of doubt that crosses your mind

          • Random66

            The one thing I’m certain of is that you love listening to yourself and once again you love to put words into other peoples mouths that they themselves hadn’t even thought of. I can assure you you haven’t touched a nerve with me, for that to be true I would have to genuinely care what you thought of me, which I don’t, and I’m not the one writing a 2000 word fictional essay and presenting it as fact to try and prop up my views. May I suggest a hobby or even a job to fill in all this free time you have.

          • unsol

            Aah dear random, you’re so bitchy. The only thing you ever spit out is bile so too bad if you don’t like it regurgitated back at you; change what you say & you never know, you may get some friends.

            As for me writing fictional essays – prove it. Of course I say this knowing you can’t. :) Problem is you have zero credibility as after all, it is you who bases your views on an invisible fairy in the sky & a 2000 year old book that is full of appalling tales & contradictions….

            I like using my free time on here – or at least for this debate. But thank you for your concern.

            In return, might I suggest you actually read that Bible you claim to know so well & perhaps also go to counselling as it must suck being so bitter & twisted. Perhaps then you can really understand terms like “a loving and just God” really means.

          • “get on with being gay”

            I actually had a rolling laugh out loud belly laugh on that one.

            I never really consider myself getting on with the business of being a man, or being heterosexual, so I truly suspect that gay people really don’t get up in the morning and say to themselves “right, another brilliant day to be gay in”.

          • i was laughing while i typed it. i thought it was the best way to say “get on with being themselves” but with a gay twist.

        • Gayguy

          I totally disagree. We are not second class citizens at all, especially now because of last night.

          There are now no laws that I know of that discriminate because of sexuality, All are equal no matter what their sexuality is.

          • Gayguy, I’m on your side here, even though you don’t seem to want me there.

            Yes, you are second class in the sense that you are not male, straight and white. (probably 2 out of 3 though?)

            Gay, brown, deaf, funny accent, walks with a limp, you pick it, you will get judged because of it and you will be carrying a handicap all your life.

            Don’t worry, I’m now getting slightly grey, so I’m entering the zone of complete unemployability, and I too am now a 2nd class citizen.

            It happens to all of us.

            The point people made, and I agree with, is that we can legislate for equality of opportunity, but we can’t leglislate for equality of outcome.

            That means that you, I, women, maori, Iraqi immigrants, all carry some sort of handicap that make us less equal in outcome, even though it appears we have equality in opportunity.

          • Gayguy

            I know you are on my side, and I want more of you there on the side of right. But after last night I do not accept that we are second class citizens at all. Only in the minds of those who will never accept us is it true. It is the same with racists who see coloured people as second class, this is not true in fact either.

            The only place second class people now live are in the minds of the haters.

          • Always been that case my friend. I really believe in equality of opportunity, but we all have to play the hand we are dealt, which includes the fact that the other players are… well, you know that better than I. I have been blessed with being white and male. I have never experienced prejudice.

          • Gayguy

            And you are equal to me.

          • GregM

            I spent last night sharing a bottle or two of wine with a lesbian couple I have known since 1980. This legislation is really going to make a difference for them, and in my heart I know it’s the right thing to do.
            There is a whole lot more people “on your side” than you think mate :-)

          • Gayguy

            And that is the fantastic thing. Many many kiwis are in support of this move. A majority are. The voices we see on here are the nasty bitter minority who are scared to see the hate of the past vanishing.

            It is sad for them that this is their life and how they view the world. And to you, as well as a VAST majority of kiwis, I say thank you.

          • LesleyNZ

            You can’t say that at all. There should have been a referendum.

          • Gayguy

            No there should not have been. Even though it would have flown through, decisions like this when it is about minority rights/human rights, have no place being decided by referendum.

            That said, as I asked you before, did you bother to get up off the couch and try and force one when it was clear there would not be one?

          • unsol

            Oh no, and me posting Lily Allen lyrics will have given you a few more greys…no doubt they will make you look very distinguished I’m sure. :)

            I saw your comment on 2 class citizens & I have to say I flinched, but seeing your explanation here I completely agree.

            Differences mean you are treated differently by others so in that sense however, with this Bill meaning the law will treat LGBT the same then perhaps in time this ‘difference’ will diminish.

            It did for black Americans & it has in many ways for women (within in reason – we still don’t have penises) so it is possibly that the same can happen towards the LGBT.

            It will be interesting to see how things change once the dust settles.

          • I can’t win you know. Either I rabbit on until you’re all asleep, or I keep it nice and brief and I can’t get my point across clearly enough.

            Gayguy wants to be equal. He’s equal in my eyes, and now he is equal in law. But society won’t make him feel equal any more than it has up to yesterday. As we’ve seen with women’s equality, that is a long process that takes multiple generations to show an improvement. Prejudices die hard, and are frequently passed on to children.

      • LesleyNZ

        Absolutely true. What you saw last night was a feel good time. That will pass. There will always be two kinds of marriages – traditional heterosexual and homosexual. They cannot ever be the same no matter how many “bridesmen” there are.

        • Gayguy

          Only in the minds of people like you.

          Like it or not the FACT is all marriages are equal and all loving couples can MARRY in NZ.

          Well done NZ.

          • LesleyNZ

            You can think that. All marraiges are not equal. They can’t be. I don’t mind if you think yours is going to be superior.

          • Gayguy

            Yes they are. In the eyes of the law all marriages are of equal value. It is only the haters who will say otherwise.

    • TomTom

      That’s understandable haha. I found Mojo’s speech to be silly as well – and others like Ruth Dyson. The only two that I liked were Nikki Kaye and Maurice Williamson – and they talked about their constituents and the feedback that they got.

      But in the end, yeah, all of this was done and dusted at the second reading. The evidential fact finding and discussion of finer points had already been done, so of course these speeches were kind of shallow in comparison. Third readings of bill always seems like a formality and a chance for some posturing/posing anyhow.

    • LesleyNZ

      When Mojo did her speech I began to wonder why she had one gay daughter and one who is not the “new normal”. Then I wondered about Gayguy’s gay gene and whether the female gay gene is different than the male gay gene. There has to be an explanation.

      • i posted this link further down the page. it may be total BS or not but i heard it on zb a few months ago. makes for interesting reading.

        http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html

        • LesleyNZ

          I can see everyone checking out their hands!

      • BJ

        There is no gene – its all a big copout from doing the work as a human while being vulnerable.

        • Gayguy

          Only uneducated fools accept that anymore BJ.

          • BJ

            I have a scientific background but do far more exciting business things these days.

  • tarkwin

    The only Northland M.P that voted in favour was Hone. Enough said.

  • whollyghost

    I did not particularly follow this issue nor the debates and voting. However, I am bisexual, and I am wondering whether I am now legally able to marry both my girlfriend and my boyfriend (simultaneously)? Please can anyone offer guidance? I hope it is the case, otherwise I am being discriminated against with respect to my sexual orientation.

    • you should read up on trolling 101 before posting

    • I suspect you may have to go to a country that recognises polygamy, get married there, and then come back.

      Although, being bi-sexual, you seem to be be missing the obvious answer:

      Marry yourself.

      • AnonWgtn

        I though that this bill in effect recognises polygamy ?
        If not I am sure that it will be next on the queer’s agenda.

      • unsol

        Haha, laugh out loud!

    • LesleyNZ

      Oh dear – what a dilemma! Gayguy is there also a bisexual gene?

      • Gayguy

        Sexuality is a complex wee thing. But then you have problems separating sexuality from gender, so until you can figure that one out, you are not going to get very far.

  • Agent BallSack

    Great it’s done now lets concentrate on something that affects most New Zealanders rather than a few like decriminalizing marijuana. If anything its a victory for 1% of the population – how about the 30% that are criminalized for smoking a quiet joint in their own time? Maybe you can tax gays easier.

    • LesleyNZ

      I think this affects most NZers.

      • Polish Pride

        “I think this affects most NZers.”
        Exactly How does this affect you Lesley?

        • LesleyNZ

          We never had a say or personal vote.

          • TomTom

            Yes, you have. Presumably you’ve participated in the submission process, and certainly you have been airing your views all over the place.

          • unsol

            Lesley thinks that voting on a referendum via low voter participation in elections is more democratic that most people lobbying their MPs directly.

          • TomTom

            Yeah IKR. And even then, if there had been a referendum, it would have been successful. So you have to wonder what they’d be saying after that?!
            Right now though, I’m just wondering why I’m stupid enough to bother with these idiots when the bill is finally through.

          • unsol

            I have been asking myself the same thing, especially given Cameron’s proverb of the day for today….I am no fool yet why do I allow myself to be sucked into even saying anything to these morons? Any response is in some way validation yet they deserve none.

            None have provided facts & all have merely regurgitated the crazy & myths that has been spread around like some fungal pungent virus that does nothing but pop & implode when poked. Hot stinky air basically.

            When I first started reading this blog I quite liked it, but over time I have found that in pretty much all issues if you dig a little deeper many are angry little fascists who resort to highly emotive & derogatory comments to make their point.

          • TomTom

            Same story here. Cam’s postings on a wide variety of items lead me to bookmark and become the second site I open after Facebook. But these days. The comments aren’t really worth looking at unless it’s bagging Shearer. Who doesn’t like bagging Shearer?!

            I’m not particularly happy with one poster here going to some length to talk about my parents when I have only mentioned one half of those two and certainly nothing of their relationship.

          • unsol

            You mean BJ? Yes I saw that too. Poor form for sure.

            She is an acquired taste. I quite like her, but almost everyone she plays a little too rough sometimes.

            2 exceptions – Petal & Polish.

            Everyone else is guilty of a bit of nasty, bitchy, scatty, petty, terse, OTT….with some just being an absolute cunt on a regular basis

            Like I said, it’s venomous web. But if we stopped playing then who would they fight against or do you think they would start to eat their own?

            And look – 200 odd comments & gayguy isn’t even here! Amazing!!!

          • TomTom

            Yeah. I missed context in a comment up there, hence my cuntiness to Gazzaw. And I dislike Gayguy btw – not a fan of how he writes.

            I believe there can be a respectful forum on this matter, but as you say, with all the injection of bullshit and twists, it can’t be done here.

          • unsol

            I don’t like him either. And yes unfortunately this topic on here always precludes respectful & healthy debate. Primarily because not one opponent has bothered to even try & produce one fact to substantiate their claims……so you & I debating on here…well spinning ones head on a pin would be easier!

          • TomTom

            Haha I actually think that if someone actually manage to flesh out one or two points (tradition and historical origin) and justified them, then I might actually agree that there is a downside to marriage equality but in the end the positive results would far outweigh the negatives anyways.

            Anyways, I’m bailing on this. I’ve gotta learn to stop caring about what morons think. Plus. I need money for my beer. And for that goddamn insurance payment.

          • Travis Poulson

            Oh it can be, but it requires both sides to remain above the gutter. It’s happened enough times between individuals, but to expect it go swimmingly throughout the entire thread is a different matter.

          • LesleyNZ

            You mean you think I am a moron?

          • unsol

            I said some not all…so take from that what you will.

          • RightOfGenghis

            I guess having to converse with morons is just a burden you have to bear. Battle on brave one

          • Hear hear.

          • LesleyNZ

            The powers that be don’t listen – they have already made up their minds as they think they know far better than us simple souls.

          • TomTom

            Nah-uh. You don’t get to say that. Quite a few MPs switched their votes at the second and third reading. It was, what, ten MPs that switched it to opposing this law, and two that went from opposing to supporting? Ten percent of Parliament changed their stance on the feedback they got. The rest didn’t, indicating that the feedback they got was that people were fine with this law.

          • unsol

            Absolute rubbish!

      • How does this affect you personally Lesley?

        • Agent BallSack

          It affects Lesley because now she has to hand in her old marriage licence and get a new-fangled Gay one. I hear it comes in shocking pink.

          • unsol

            Haha we always can rely on you for the funny laugh out loud one liners – awesome! Funny shit ABS

          • LesleyNZ

            No need to be nasty unsol.

          • unsol

            Laughing at ABS clever comment isnt being nasty Lesley – offence can only be taken, not given.

          • LesleyNZ

            No need to be nasty Agent.

          • Dave

            Perhaps ABS, there could become a “Pink Market” for the sought after, extinct old traditional Marriage licence. Can someone ask TradeMe to set up a new section – Marriage Certificates!! Or, perhaps the greens can print them on their printing press after they have printed the currency for the week.

          • LesleyNZ

            My favourite colour is turquoise.

        • LesleyNZ

          Good question Whale .Apart from not having a referendum and “the people” having personal vote like our MPs did, I watched the celebration last night (in between Maggie’s funeral) and thought – the likes of me have been affected. It now feels very odd as if I am not normal. That doesn’t worry me at all because it is to be expected with the belief that I have and I understand why I feel like I do. For gay marriage to happen something has to be taken from traditional marriage. Marriage no longer has the meaning it had yesterday. Marriage now has two meanings/definitions. There is – or soon will be Homosexual and Heterosexual marriage. But no matter how much you say they are the same – they never can be. Civil Union was never to be the fix for inequality. It was one of the milestones to gay marriage that had to happen. There was a plan – Helen Clark was too chicken to go further than Civil Union. The same plan used by gay Dutch MP Boris Dittrich in Holland has played out successfully in NZ and this plan will continue to be used worldwide. You know what it is. It will happen in Australia – much like it did in NZ, with Tony Abbott. Already he is softening to the idea whereas Julia – like Helen says NO. As my husband reminded me this morning there are more important things to focus on. Preaching the Gospel to lost souls – no matter whether one is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual is the most important. Eternity is forever. We tend to forget this when we caught up with the day to day issues of life here on earth.

          • TomTom

            Maurice calculated that you would only last 2.8 seconds in Hell. Which doesn’t really equal forever. I’d definitely take the word of a hilarious physicist over you.

          • LesleyNZ

            Hmmmmm

          • Dave

            Lesley – And you needed a referendum because???? Public sentiment, opinion polls, and from MP’s speaking to their electorate all indicated the bill would have passed. A referendum is unlikely to have changed anything. Personally, I don’t really mind one way or the other, it wont affect 99% of people going about their lives! Lets not forget, we have a COUNTRY to run. If the same Passion/Commitment and ENERGY was put into reducing the welfare culture, increasing productivity, fixing/improving NZ’s Education system, then I would say, Great Progress has been made for all Kiwi’s.

            As WO has stated, the sun rose this morning, which is quite astounding given the Bill passed, and as Chicken Little should have proclaimed – the Sky DIDN’T fall.

          • LesleyNZ

            By the grace of God we greet the sun every morning (well not always the sun like today). And do you also care about the status of the unborn baby as well as the economy, reducing the welfare culture, increasing productivity, fixing/improving NZ’s Education system?

          • Dave

            Yes I do care bout the status of an unborn child, but that is NOT this debate is it, the question again is:

            And you needed a referendum because????

          • unsol

            I think it is incredibly sad that you feel so deeply affected by people of the same gender being finally able to get married. That you feel it will impact you & that it makes you feel you are not normal.

            I guess at least you now have an idea on how the LGBT have felt their entire lives & especially during this debate when people like you tell them they are not normal despite their feelings being normal to them, the only thing they have ever known.

            This Bill has taken nothing away from your marriage or anyone’s marriage whether past, present or future. People will have the option to have their forms read in a way that makes sense to them – remembering many heterosexual couples, especially younger ones, prefer terms like partner to bride, groom or even husband & wife. And all ministers & celebrants will have the right to choose who they officiate ceremonies for. Mark my words, this was & always a non issue for all but the LGBT community. It has nothing to do with you, it is not your business & if it is a spiritual issue then that becomes an issue between them & God – not you, them & God.

            This law had to happen because their was no legal reason for it not to. So it is done. Right or wrong the LGBT community had all the same rights as heteros in society, but get married.

            As for Tony Abbott – his sister is gay & a huge advocate for marriage equality so I would not be surprised if he does change his mind. They are very close.

          • LesleyNZ

            I don’t feel sad so sorry that you do. I am not deeply affected at all. I expected this. Time will tell what this bill will do. As my dad used to say – don’t bang your tent peg too far into this earth – it is all so temporary. Things eternal are what really matters.

  • LesleyNZ

    Watching them all hugging and kissing I just thought – it is all such a game. A joke. They got what they wanted and they couldn’t care less what we “the people” think. As for John Banks. I am not sure who his God is. Watching and reading about what some National MPs said and their behaviour, has confirmed that I really cannot vote for National or ACT again. (Tau Henare, Maurice Williamson). They scoff at Christian belief – yet there are Christians in the National Party and in ACT and Christians who have voted for National and ACT who do not rain down fire and brimstone emails and phone calls upon them. Scoffing at the God I believe in for whatever reason they may have, was the icing on the cake. Maurice may think what he said was a joke – but it was a foolish thing to say. I am not sure what Tau was on last night. I thought he was going to pop. MMP and List MPs have kicked true and proper democracy out the door. In NZ democracy is merely a word not a process anymore. As for you Gayguy. You still haven’t posted the link to the facts about your gay gene.

    • jaundiced

      Hello LesleyNZ – your belief is a joke. Religion makes good people do bad things

    • Polish Pride

      They haven’t scoffed at the god you believe in. They just understand that there is seperation between the church and the state. They have not stopped you worshipping your god and practicing your religion in any way shape or form.

      • LesleyNZ

        I believe in a separation of church and state and to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s but politicians should be careful with their words. You can never take your words back. Just because you have a comfortable majority doesn’t mean you spout off what you like because you think a few lost votes won’t matter.

    • TomTom

      Around 65% of MPs voted for the bill – which is round about the same numbers seen in the polls over the last year or two.

      Also – This is not a theocracy. Just because some Christians believe one thing does not mean that the rest of NZ should be expected to bow to that belief. It would be like legislating to ban pork just because of a Muslim belief that it is forbidden to eat.

      • BJ

        On a herald poll yesterday, that mysteriously disappeared when they had several thousands votes, only 15% supported GM 45% were against and an apathetic 40% – didn’t vote either way because they hadn’t woken up to what was about to be slipped past them. A referendum would have shown quite clearly, after being given all the facts, the country did not want this.
        You can fantasize all you want about being like your father but you never will be – your father had a wife and you cannot replicate what that heterosexual relationship contributed to your development – you have no idea how man and woman work to balance the world – and you will not be making any contribution to that balancing act either —– after all, isn’t it “just” a piece of paper like so many on here like to diminish the meaning of traditional marriage- so nothing will change for you – your’re in the same place as you were yesterday really

        • spollyike

          So true, and so sad for our so called democracy. I would vote for ANY party now left or right that would have BINDING referendums on all these issues where there is a clear need for a society vote. Otherwise we may as well be living in a fascist dictatorship.

        • TomTom

          BJ – I am going to say it once more, and only once more. You are a little cunt. Don’t talk shit that you don’t even know about – and particularly don’t talk about what you think my family is or isn’t.

          Just a little example – I’m going to make the completely worthless observation that because of your trash talking, your parents must have been quite worthless at trying to instill common decency and manners into you. Perhaps they weren’t truly married as I would suggest they have not allowed themselves to be vulnerable enough
          to truly experience full immersion of marriage with their opposite and
          complementary gender.

          And if you mean balance by that my father complete sanity balances out
          my mother’s complete insanity? Yeah, that’s just fucking fantastic,
          mate.

          • unsol

            For the sake of disclosure BJ is a mother of 5 adult children & has been married for about 20 years.

            Of course time, history & anecdotal evidence tells us that where marriage is concerned, longevity is in no way necessarily indicative of a genuine loving, trusting & faithful companionship.

            BJ – not trying to have a dig at your marriage, just meaning that you made a massive assumption that is in no way backed up by marriage statistics.

            I would argue few marriages that are still together after many years are genuine marriages in terms of sex, friendship, companionship etc.

          • BJ

            It really depends on how challenging and rich the experiences you face every day whether together or apart – and what you know to be good and right in the world that you keep your eye on. Don’t for one minute think that after 24 yrs I have slipped into complacency, comfort and habit – I celebrate the challenges and the rewards every day.

          • unsol

            That’s lovely you have a good marriage that you don’t take for granted BJ, but it is poor form to base your views on an assumption that those who disagree with you don’t share in your good fortune.

          • BJ

            Fortune has nothing to do with it – it is an outlook.

          • unsol

            So knew you’d come back & comment on fortune! Nope not outlook – good marriages are, I believe, the result of 2 well-adjusted & not fractured halves coming together to form a perfect whole….or at least trying each day to do this.

            But as Captain Correlli said, love is both an art & a fortunate accident so there is an element of good fortune that I think also comes into play in terms of being in a good place and meeting the right kind of mate.

          • BJ

            Love does not endure unless the outlook of both is healthy and robust and broken people can become ‘perfect’ if they have complimentary attributes that aid the other to get whole

          • Gayguy

            And homosexual couples are just as healthy and robust as heterosexuals But then I do not expect the poorly educated haters to accept this.

          • TomTom

            Right. I just called a woman a little cunt on the internet. How fucking fantastic. Meh, she sounded like a guy.

          • Gazzaw

            You need to calm down TomTom.

          • BJ

            I quite like that word – no offense taken. And I’m still referred to as a little cutey so I guess I’m feminine, but thanks for the compliment.

          • BJ

            Oh indeed every ‘foulmouthed’ homosexual has a story to tell – your not made of the same stuff as your father obviously

          • TomTom

            There you go again, talking trash. You did not edit your original comment so many weeks ago taking a personal story of mine about my relationship with my father and adding in what you imagined about my family and my personal relationship with my other parent.
            That was offensive, and that you still don’t get it just means that you were never sincere at all when you, me and Unsol were “talking.”

          • BJ

            Yes I was – I was struck in my heart and found myself very emotional at the time but then you came back later enraged and called me some ugly name and I am a defender not an attacker – and I a resilient defender against something that I feel is just plain wrong – I have read wide and listened to everything and have tried hard to be open to a changed view but I still believe there could have been legislative change that could have ensured legal equality without screwing with undefining marriage.

          • Gayguy

            All you do is talk trash on this subject.

          • starboard

            ..and you are the voice of reason?? Pffttt. LMFAO.

          • Gayguy

            Well I have facts and truths on my side and you have nonsense.

            Sooooooooooo……….

          • Over the line. Do not attack people like that personally. Not on now, or ever.

          • unsol

            Petal attacks are not always said in the form of expletives….”My guess is you will outdo your mother as a parent then” implying that because his mother is insane he will be an even worse parent…I’d say that is up there with calling someone a cunt.

            Likewise using information he shared re his fantastic relationship with his father as a way to further insult “You can fantasize all you want about being like your father”

            Just saying. You are very careful in how you word things, as is Polish. But you two are the exception!

          • BJ

            You do get it wrong frequently unsol – do you do it on purpose? I did not imply what you just said – you took it that way – I was implying he would at least do better than his poor mother who had about 8 kids to deal with – he is the one putting the info out in public.

          • unsol

            Don’t patronize me BJ – putting a smiley face doesnt preclude your attempt to insult. I rarely get things wrong. But you do. A lot.

            Rephrasing is not misquoting. Big difference. Like I said to Random, if you don’t like the bile you frequently spit out regurgitated back at you or if you don’t like the way in which your comments are received then change your stylistic approach or refrain from commenting.

            I was beginning to warm to you, but you really do say some really outrageous things….such as the presumptuous & factually absent comment you made about the marriages of all those who supported to this Bill, to wacky comments as

            “There is no gene – its all a big copout from doing the work as a human while being vulnerable.”

            or weird nonsensical contradictory comments like “I am all for equality before the law but it did not have to be achieved by pretense [Spelt pretence btw – dictionary may have come in handy here, or perhaps even spell check] at the expense of others. There were other ways.”

            You have no facts, just antiquated opinion based on myths that you seemed to have picked out from a Woman’s Day mag in the 1930s

          • TomTom

            Then I challenge you to moderate better, particularly when people like BJ take someone else’s personal story from one blogpost to another several weeks later and twist it round, add in what they think is true to suit their purpose.

          • I can’t see everything. If anyone has a concern about a specific issue, they need to let someone know. But one wrong doesn’t justify another. Take the high road and know you’re better for it.

          • TomTom

            Consider me told. High road it is.

          • BJ

            Grow up little boy. I twisted nothing. You freely gave information as part of your argument for wanting gay marriage – to be just like your father – I told you you’re dreaming about having what a heterosexual relationship brings – the fact that you obviously have many issues such that words trigger anger is your problem. Of course I don’t know your family dynamics and quite frankly I don’t give a damn, but I twisted nothing.

          • TomTom

            Are you describing yourself there? Cos you do sound remarkably like my mother did.

            It’s also not for you to say what you think the quality of another person’s relationship is, like you’ve been constantly doing. So I’d suggest you should grow up as well, old woman. :P

          • Gayguy

            Then perhaps you should deal with others who have done so in the past.

          • I’ve covered this elsewhere today, so forgive me for not starting another reply in detail. In short: contact the management any time you think something needs looking at, as not all comments are read. I personally have a full time job, get paid $0.00 to do this, so peanuts -> monkeys, and all that.

          • Travis Poulson

            Like yourself you mean? I agree.

          • Gayguy

            No. You.

          • Travis Poulson

            That’s a good one Paul, tell another.

        • Gayguy

          Lord you live in la la land.

          • LesleyNZ

            And where have you been today?

          • Gayguy

            Like I said above, living and working in the real world. Not all of us live our lives on line.

    • LesleyNZ

      jaundiced – there is a big difference between religion and Christian belief. Tom Tom – was I saying this? ” Just because some Christians believe one thing does not mean that the rest of NZ should be expected to bow to that belief.” I said Maurice Williamson lacked in wisdom in his comment directed at Christian belief. I don’t expect you to bow down to any belief.

    • “They scoff at Christian belief”

      Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true

      What is belief if not something to be scoffed at?

      Know or don’t know is my advice LesleyNZ, keep your witchcraft in the closet is my advice, there is plenty of room there now!

      • LesleyNZ

        That is uncalled for NMR.

    • starboard

      you wont hear from gayguy for a while…he’s probably hanging out of some seedy glory hole hung over from last nights faux victory party

      • better a glory hole than a priest hole methinks

      • Gayguy

        Oh look nasty personal attacks, Oh petal, are you going to deal to this fool or let him slide?

        • I dealt with starboard earlier today. I think I’ll run the gauntlet of Cam’s rage by banning starboard personally when the next problem occurs. I agree we all had enough.

          • Gayguy

            That would be the best plan.

    • Gayguy

      You can still vote for ACT, I do not believe for one moment that Banks has changed. His vote is a political move, not anything that he really believes.

      And as for the science of the gay gene, it has been out there for a few years now so how about you look for yourself as opposed to living in denial But then you may have to admit you are wrong.

      But in truth it is all moot now. Love won and hate lost last night. So cry all you like. You lost.

      • LesleyNZ

        I have looked for the gay gene out there. Can’t find it. You said you knew where it was. No won’t be voting ACT. No tears.

  • I watched it online last night and was most impressed with Tau Henere and his attack on Winston (interesting to note that calling Winston a shyster is ‘in order’ according to David Carter HAHAHAHA!!).
    But this is a great victory for freedom and a crushing defeat for loons.
    I have read an awful lot of disgusting homophobic, sodomy obsessed, hysterical posts on whaleoil in recent months on this issue, written by very strange people and am delighted such posts had no effect on MPs last night.

    • TomTom

      All the cry and hue of “WE’RE TALKING TOO MUCH ABOUT GAYS” is getting a bit ridiculous, no?

  • Pete George

    One small step for equality, one giant step for homosexuals.

  • spollyike

    I wonder what the idiot PC progressive crowds next pet project is going to be?
    We know the tv3 poll last night of more than 17,000 people showed 78% don’t think the bill should have passed. No doubt their next pet project will be laws against so called “hate” speech, so those that disagree with this bill (and future legislation for minority activist groups) being law will be forced to conform and not speak out for fear of prosecution.

    • Polish Pride

      The majority of white slave owners didn’t think slavery should be abolished either. It didn’t make it right.
      And a stuff poll just as scientific had 67% in favour of the bill passing. Both probably had special interest groups skewing the results while the rest of New Zealand was just busy getting on with their lives.

      • Gayguy

        100% right.

    • LesleyNZ

      I think you are right – my husband said the same comment to me this morning.

  • Frank Smith

    Interesting looking geographically how MP’s voted. By purely looking at the map the votes should have been the other way around http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/8565941/Marriage-equality-bill-How-MPs-voted

    • yeah i saw that and i dont think its very fair to do it that way as these MPs were not voting in line with their constituencies. they were voting for themselves and thus does not represent the geography of the feel of the country.

  • parorchestia

    Two points to stir the pot that arise from this.
    1, There doesn’t seem to be a genetic basis for homosexuality – no gene has yet been found in spite of extensive searching, If that is so, how long before we find the causes and the possible treatments that could head off homosexuality in the young? Do you think this is both possible and likely? Is it desirable?
    2. The naughty habits of all parties in power of sneaking in major legislation without observing our constitutional conventions brings up the vexed question of how do we prevent such abuses? Do we need a constitution and what would it look like? Kiddies, this is important, extremely important, even if you are celebrating the passage of a bill that should have been subject to a referendum. There is a government appointed body currently investigating the need for a constitution. It is almost certain to set the Treaty as a cornerstone of the constitution. Have your say or regret it forever. There is no more important issue facing us at the moment than this.

    • make of it what you will. i heard this being spoken about on zb and it sounded plausible

      http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html

      • parorchestia

        These effects could be due to epigenetic factors – things that influence the development of structures, organs or behaviour that are not DNA based. We are starting to realise how important these are and there is growing research into their effects. So, watch this space!

    • Polish Pride

      “The naughty habits of all parties in power of sneaking in major legislation without observing our constitutional conventions brings up the vexed question of how do we prevent such abuses? Do we need a constitution and what would it look like?”
      “There is no more important issue facing us at the moment than this.”

      Absolutely 100% correct!

    • TomTom
      • parorchestia

        The Wikipedia article is all old stuff. But there has been recent considerable interest in the effect on the expression of the mother’s genome due to epigenetic effects. But you are right in one sense – it is all due to fuck’s sake. And to my knowledge there is still has been no specific gene(s) found. If you believe otherwise take me to the research paper that gives rise to your belief. Twit.

    • “The naughty habits of all parties in power of sneaking in major legislation without observing our constitutional conventions”

      *sigh*

      This was a private members bill drown by ballot, there was a substantial committee phase, manu MPs canvassed their electorates, and was put to a conscience vote.

      I don’t know what you expect, but you need to put what you want the result of the process to be aside, and have the guts to acknowledge that there is nothing wrong with the way this law came about.

      If anything, it has been the most democratic way our parliamentary system is capable of.

      We elect these people to run our country. Not to come running to us to ask us what to do every damn time.

      • parorchestia

        I wasn’t arguing the probity of the bill. I was arguing about how parliament operates. And silly me; I thought we elected representatives.
        I am a strong believer in direct democracy, so believe the more power given to the people the better. But MMP gives far too much power to parties and to unelected (and often unelectable) members, not the electorate.
        We do have constitutional conventions and it greatly concerns me that these are regularly ignored. My question was do we need a constitution that would ensure parliament observes the agreed constitutional arrangements or are we happy with the way it operates at present?

    • Mr_Blobby

      It is already a done deal. The committee was 51% Maori from the start how representative is that. No fuck there constitution.

  • cows4me

    The only real winner was politics. I’m sure if the government had allowed the people their say this bill would have been beaten, even Whaleoil’s pole showed that support for the bill wasn’t even close. What we are really have here is a government lead by National taking a gamble and letting a conscience vote which they knew would favoured gay marriage. By doing this they have removed a large support base that would have traditionally voted for a left leaning party that pushed for gay marriage. They have effectively removed another arrow from the lefts armoury. They have gambled that they will gain more support by utilising a conscience vote for gay marriage then they shall lose by not supporting it. In the end real democracy was the loser and those claiming we can not governed by referendum know full well this isn’t a valid argument in this case.

    • Polish Pride

      I’d say the LBGT community were pretty clear winners out of this too and their families that support them.

    • TomTom

      This blog seems to attract a lot of conservatives on the right, even though Cam has very libertarian views. Also – you wouldn’t really call the poll on here a proper poll (no random selection of people, no accounting for slight bias eg Auckland is a more liberal area so you couldn’t say a poll of who Aucklanders would vote for would be the same as a poll of who NZers would vote for).

      Anyways, many polls over the last year or two have shown support for marriage equality at more than 60%

      • cows4me

        Yes Tom Tom, sure Tom Tom, if you say so.

        • TomTom

          *rolls eyes* Google news poll and take a statistic paper or two.

    • Agent BallSack

      And National just passed the law that will allow 50% of Labour Party & 100% Green Party members to get married!

      • You mean: now everyone can get married, no matter what party they are from?

  • unsol

    It is great to see the end of this, I just hope all of you on the opposing side accept your defeat with grace & dignity. That you move on & focus on being the best co-workers, friends, lovers, spouses, husbands, wives, parents, daughters, sons & human beings you can be.

    The world hasn’t & wont come to an end – although Jesse Mulligan on 7 sharp put up a good case for that last night (1980s stock market crash was right after the last round of reforms & WW1 & the Great depression happened after NZ women got the vote!) & yes LGBT children may continue to be bullied – after all, it isn’t like the attitudes of some will change as a result of this Bill (and children emulate the example their parents set so if they bully it is because their parents have failed to apply the verb in “parenting”), but at least now they know they have the same civil rights as their heterosexual friends.

    • starboard

      Fuck off with your grace and dignity shit you patronising little woman..your continuous high and mighty comments give me the shits.

      • unsol

        Aah, the pillar of our blogging community graces us with his presence in the usual style.

        I shall respond to your comment in kind:

        In the words of Lily Allen….

        F*ck you (F*ck You)
        F*ck you very, very much

        Look inside your tiny mind
        Now look a bit harder
        Cause we’re so uninspired,
        so sick and tired of all the
        hatred you harbor

        So you say
        It’s not okay to be gay
        Well I think you’re just evil….
        Your point of view is medieval

        Do you really enjoy living a
        life that’s so hateful?
        Cause there’s a hole where
        your soul should be
        Your losing control of it and
        it’s really distasteful

        You say
        You think we need to go to war
        well you’re already in one
        Cause it’s people like you
        who need to get slew
        No one wants your opinion

        Have a nice day Starboard – try not to choke on your bile. :)

        • Not helpful. Perhaps you could consider removing it. Thanks.

          • unsol

            Cameron has posted this video many times so I think it is pertinent to the issue.

          • I’m trying to put out a fire. All I’m asking is for people to stop “helping” by throwing more fuel on. That’s only relevant to this situation. It’s all about context. It always is.

          • PlanetOrphan

            No offense bud, but further to my conversations with another …

            Intermittent Reinforcement

          • You just have to accept that as fact. When I pull someone up on a particular comment, it will be relevant for that comment no matter what led up to it. If something else passed unnoticed, then so be it. I’m paid exactly $0.00 and I have a day job to get on with. Sometimes I’m just doing other stuff. Moderation doesn’t have to be fair or even handed. It just gets handed out when it is needed and noticed. You, like everyone else, is always free to bring any issue to the site owner’s attention. Don’t assume Cam, Travis or I actually read every comment. We don’t. Nor do we necessarily understand the more nuanced personal information that is understood between two people when a slight goes completely over our heads because we simply do not know the context of it.

          • PlanetOrphan

            Fair enough, I understand, Just thought I’d throw it out there 4 ya :-)

          • unsol

            Fair enough – but this is the last hoorah hence why I think today is more no holds barred…..like I said there are only 2 people who always mind their P’s & Q’s on here – the rest of us are likely a bunch of unruley toddlers.

            This is why MPs for example demonstrate appalling & churlish behaviour at times – just like blogs they get sucked into the battle of wills, ego & oneupmanship.

            To me fair in the last few posts I have been deliberately contentious as I am so sick of this debate in terms of how nothing anyone says on ‘my’ side resonates.

            To me this is just mind boggling. How is it possible so many people think they have the right to determine what others do in their personal lives yet don’t actually know why they think the way they do, who influenced them or what prejudices their views are based on.

            It’s like they assume they know best and that’s that. And then have the audacity to write anything I say off as garbage yet right from the start I have brought the debate back to the history of marriage, statistics pertaining to pedophilia, the contradictions of the Bible & its various interpretations, facts around adoption etc etc. I have been saying the same things all along yet some who have been vindictive, obnoxious, nasty & derogatory from the second I posted my first post on this, are claiming to be victims. Hugely ironic.

            But it is done now. ‘My’ side won so we can now get onto focussing on other issues.

            Btw re your email Cameron posted the other day – interesting that they have since clarified the matter (couples will get to choose).

            Anyway school pick-up – seriously behind chores now after today’s big procrastination!

            And good on you with your moderation too – I think you achieve the perfect balance. I will delete the Lily Allen lyrics for you now.

      • I’m just going to throw in a warning here to keep things sensible. I know this topic winds you up, but keep the foul language and personal attacks out of it please. I specifically came here to see if you would behave, and you made it pretty much down the comments list, but here we are again. You know what is allowed and what isn’t. This is not the first time we’ve had this chat, and you continue to think you can get away with it because all you get is a silly warning. Well, guess what? I’m over it. You know what to do. Don’t come crying crocodile tears about due process and fairness and s/he did it first and all the other stuff I’ve all seen before when you find yourself blocked from participating. In short (I really don’t do short). This could be your last chance. Everyone else manages to do it, now it’s your turn to shape up or find that there are consequences after all.

        • starboard

      • Gayguy

        Much like anything you say at any time.

        • starboard

          oohh look…its risen from the seedy depths of filth and sodomy..

          • Gayguy

            Talking about yourself again I see SB.

  • AnonWgtn

    The Auckland Herald is a disgrace as usual.

    Its headline this morning

    “We all do”

    NO – WE DO NOT ALL DO IT.

    Once again a minority put at 150,000 may “All do” (not forgetting Mojo’s daughter) make legislation to suit that minority.

    One stupid woman on Radio left wing this morning was screaming “We are now equal”.

    Silly bitch – tell that to the part maori in this country

  • BJ

    Of course the sun still rose this morning and no the sky won’t fall in and no gay people will not be the demise of society (but ME will contribute to it big time), – what will be, is legislating the insidious slide away from the backbone, the core, the very heart of society and what has fallen on deaf ears is the fact that true marriage is something tangible, and uniquely palpable that will never ever ever ever ever ever be the same for two people of the same gender. For those of you married heterosexuals that have supported this bill I would suggest you have not allowed yourselves to be vulnerable enough to truly experience full immersion of marriage with your opposite and complementary gender – otherwise you would know exactly what some of us on here are on about. And for those that have never been married – you wouldn’t have a clue.

    • unsol

      “For those of you married heterosexuals that have supported this bill I would suggest you have not allowed yourselves to be vulnerable enough to truly experience full immersion of marriage with your opposite and complementary gender – otherwise you would know exactly what some of us on here are on about”

      So in other words, those who are in favour dont have a deep, loving, committed, faithful, communicative & honest marriage?

      It is because we (or at least definitely in the case of me) have such marriages that we are able to see how this Bill has no impact on us whatsoever and further, that because marriage is so wonderful, so precious & such a blessing that we can see how anyone in a consensual, committed legal relationship that the State has sanctioned, would want to be ‘part of this club’.

      Conversely, I firmly believe that all those who have argued against this marriage in way that is distasteful, ignorant & devoid of fact must have terrible relationships as to me they are terrible people. I find them abhorrent & I hate to think what example they are setting for their children as empathy, knowledge, & truth are words that seem to be missing from their cognitive processes & vocabulary.

      • TomTom

        It’s funny though. Supposedly about 50% of all New Zealanders over 18 are married. There is about a 65% support for the law in scientific polls. Let’s just pick 3 million as the number of people over 18.

        Therefore, BJ has just basically called the marriages of (65% support of the 50% of NZers who are married times 3 million people) 975,000 people worthless. GENIUS STRATEGY. Not.

        • unsol

          :)

    • “true marriage is something tangible, and uniquely palpable that will never ever ever ever ever ever be the same for two people of the same gender”

      if it looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit its probably bullshit

    • Gayguy

      Lord you speak garbage.

  • Phar Lap

    Talkback in Wellington is saying Winston Peters made a great speech on the marriage debate last night.Was wondering as an overall balance could we hear that as well .

  • Arandomreader

    Today is a great day for liberty.

    The NZ Government has affirmed its commitment to the freedom of it’s citizens.

    Even if Gay marriage doesn’t directly affect you, that is a thing which is worth celebrating.

    • I’m happy you are happy, but let’s be honest now. For most people, especialy gay ones, tomorrow is the same sort of day as today. Nothing really has changed apart from a form at the Department of Internal Affairs, and let’s not pretend otherwise.

      • Arandomreader

        I am happy at the affirmation of liberty.
        Usually our Government passes laws that restrict its citizens. This is one of the rare cases in which rights are being granted.

        I think that’s worth celebrating.

      • BJ

        Yeah nothing has changed for gays – they are still going to have to pretend their relationships are equal to heterosexuals – and they never will be.
        And just to clarify- I do not mean to diminish homosexual relationships – they are what they are – but will only ever be different – and never the same

        • Equality before the law is important I think. But yes, equality in the eyes of someone else will never be achieved.

          • BJ

            I am all for equality before the law but it did not have to be achieved by pretense at the expense of others.

        • Gayguy

          Only haters hold your view. People of good moral upstanding know all relationships between loving couples are equal. And you twisting words do not hide your hate.

          • starboard

            lol…a homosexual quoting ‘good moral upstanding’…LMFAO again..!

          • Gayguy

            Given how you behave on here, a lady of the night who enjoys an hourly intakes of P has better morals than you.

          • Steady………

          • Gayguy

            Why? Unless you are going to do something about SB, then he will get what he gives. I am not above smacking him around and will do so.

          • I’m asking you, as a favour, not to provoke a situation. If starboard goes nuclear, I’ll have to do something about it, but if you deliberately cause it, then my hands are tied.

            It takes two to tango. Can you please not throw more fuel on?

          • Gayguy

            I was very polite in how I phrased what I said. Now if I had of posted what I originally typed then you would really be unimpressed.

            I will not start anything, but by God I will not let his lies stand.

          • I don’t understand your need to engage. Why not just ignore what you can obviously not change :)

          • Gayguy

            One should never ignore either lies or hate. Otherwise the grow unchecked.

            And please do not take this as a slight, but you are of a group in society who enjoy insulation from such things and thus I do not expect you to understand why SB cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

          • I’m going to bed now. But I would be deeply disappointed to find I have to throw you out as well. I hate to see that as collateral damage, do you understand? starboard is pretty much on a last warning. Be wise, not vengeful.

            Sleep well, and congratulations on a fantastic day for you and those that travel along your path.

          • Gayguy

            I am nothing if not wise, and promise to start nothing with the twit.

            And thank you. Despite your opposition to it, I consider you one of the good guys. You have been the only one on the other side to engage in genuine discussion and actually try to understand why this was so important.

            Sleep well.

          • Travis Poulson

            Well you may as well wipe out the wise part. Newsflash, Pete isn’t opposed to gay marriage.

          • Gayguy

            We have had more than one discussion on this, so please for a change bugger off and MYOB.

          • Travis Poulson

            newsflash Paul, I’m here whether you like it or not. That suits you left wing lot doesn’t it, anyone with an opposite view you’d just love to go away and be silenced. Well I’ve got news for you sunshine. You keep coming back to a public forum with your snarky bullshit, you know what to expect.

          • starboard

            lol…I know when you get all excited and flustered because your grammar gets all fucked up..its ” intake “..maybe you should be a ..I dunno..a gardener or something rather than a school teacher…heh

          • Gayguy

            Hmmm interesting, the number of inaccuracies in that post…. Naaa, I promised not to start anything, so I won’t.

    • LesleyNZ

      This is a superb comment! I thought marriage meant entrapment and bondage to the liberal at heart.

  • spollyike

    The majority of national MP’s still disagree with homo marriage, and i would say the majority of their voters also disagree. Do they feel, as i do, somewhat betrayed?

    • I suspect they feel the way I felt when Labour made parents into criminals by smacking their kids’ hands before they touched the hot oven.

      It is time we get back to what is really important, like making sure this country can afford to pay all its bills.

      • LesleyNZ

        Petal – That reminds me – how do I stop my 8 month grandson from touching the hot oven. He is starting to do this. NO! is not always effective. It works a bit. Any tips? One thing has been reinforced from when I had my own children. Noone has taught him to be naughty – at 8 months!

        • This makes most people cringe, but I let mine touch it. End of problem. It’s not so hot as to burn their skin, but hot enough for them to remember not to do it again.

    • Polish Pride

      You feel betrayed!?!
      how does gay marriage affect you?

    • starboard

      yes.

  • starboard

    Another nail in NZ’s coffin…the sodomists think they have won but its a hollow victory. Did you see the Campbell poll last night at 7.30? Says it all. Fucking politicians..list scum…Joe Kiwi has been rorted again.

  • Polish Pride

    Jamie Lee Ross made an important point.
    Minority rights issues should not be referendum issues.
    I am all for referendums and binding ones at that. But there are are issues that should not go to a referendum. Minority rights issues are one of them there are likely to be more. Without careful thought you would end up with nothing more than mob rule.
    And Cam I may owe you an apology, I think you pointed this out a few weeks ago when I mentioned binding referendums. I still think there is a place for them but it would need very careful consideration so as not to disadvantage the few at the hands of the many.

    • Well done. Worth repeating:

      Minority rights issues should not be referendum issues.

      • Gayguy

        Damm right, because the majority will always covet the power and keep down those that scare them.

  • Goldie

    Aaargh! Andrei and Travis were right! The Bill passed, and this morning I woke up and had an overwhelming desire to divorce my wife and enter into a polygamous marriage with five men and several stray sheep, but I couldn’t because western civilisation had ended.

    • Travis Poulson

      ok then liar, offer some proof supporting me making comments in relation to “an overwhelming desire to divorce my wife and enter into a polygamous marriage with five men and several stray sheep, but I couldn’t because western civilisation had ended.”

      Let’s see if you can. No, because you can’t. You just made it up. But then all those who oppose gay marriage must share the exact same opinions and all agree with each other right?

      • Travis Poulson

        Your silence is deafening Goldie.

  • steve and monique

    So the world never ended.And from some of the posts on here,it seems the finger has been pointed at National for putting this bill into law.From what I heard last night only 3 voted against this in the Labour party.So do all those who hate this bill,and vote for labour going to change their vote.I dont think so. If I have got this wrong,let me know. As for the gay community,congratulations,you now have the same rights as us hetros,including in-laws..

  • Kacanga

    For God’s sake, it’s over. LET IT GO

    • This post is now the “most commented on” post on Whaleoil.

  • Lion_ess

    Interesting post from Derryn Hinch today – note also on the sidebar the results from the Viewer Poll

    http://www.humanheadline.com.au/Hinch-Says/kiwis-1-australia-0

  • Mr_V4

    What I want to know, and a question nobody answers, is: Why does the state have any role in determining who can/cannot marry in the first place?

    • Quickly and oversimplified: The state has laws providing certain protections to people who are married. Some taxes are applied differently. Benefits are paid out differently. And of course there are no-fault divorces that rule the majority of break-ups. As those are expressed in law, the state has an interest in who is and isn’t married, and by extension, it has to define what marriage is, just to ensure someone doesn’t marry a chair and claim a benefit for the chair.

      • Mr_V4

        On your first points:

        So are you saying that without the threat of state imposed violence (i.e prison) you yourself would not provide protection to the person you marry? Doesn’t sound very ‘loving’.

        And the marrying a chair argument is pure bunk, a private contract has to be signed willingly between accepting participants volunatrily. Now unless you are eyeing up a particularly intelligent chair, it would be rather difficult to find one that can agree………. If you have found one however, go for it.

        • “Quickly and oversimplified”.

          I’m not sure if we have much common ground to continue here. You asked a question, I broadly outlined some reasons, but I really can’t see the leap where the state imposes violence.

          As for needing consent to marry, who says? Oh yeah, the state.

          • Mr_V4

            Well prior to today what would have happened if a same-sex couple declared they were married and decided to pay taxes on that basis?

            Or how about if they declared-falsely they were ‘married’ on any legal documents?

            You would be looking at police/legal action imposed by the state? Is this not violence?

            Can consent not occur voluntarily between two parties? Why does the state have to have a say-so, enforced with a big stick?

          • Travis Poulson

            The state is forcing people to get married with a big stick now? boy have I missed alot.

            As for your definition of violence, I’m not even sure that can be taken seriously.

            You weren’t the guy that rang up Leighton Smith last week alleging that his neighbours and the GCSB were conspiring against him by spying by any chance are you?

          • Mr_V4

            Did I say “the state is forcing people to get married”? No.

            What I was saying is why can’t consent for marriage be voluntary between two loving people, why is the state the enforcer? Who appointed it to its role in marriage?

            Please take a literacy course.
            For a suppose right-wing moderator, you have a lot of trouble with right-wing concepts. Have you tried job openings at the standard?

          • Travis Poulson

            It’s difficult to take anything you say seriously judging by your comment above, especially the “violence” comment. I think I’ll leave it at that, not a good look debating with a paranoid delusional.

          • Mr_V4

            You’ve got no argument so just resort to ad hom.

            Of course pretty much expected judging by previous “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear” comments.

          • Travis Poulson

            Nevermind what I’m saying, if I were you I’d be outside watching the skies in case chemtrails start appearing.

          • Mr_V4

            More of the same …. what happened to “leaving it at that”?
            Again you have no debating points to offer.
            If you have such interest in aircraft contrails, I’ll leave watching the skies to you, after all the survelliance state seems to be your forte.

          • Travis Poulson

            You are assuming your batshit crazy paranoid comment is worth debating. It’s not. And I said chemtrails, not contrails.

          • Mr_V4

            Oh “batshit, crazy and paranoid now”?
            All for asking the question why is it the state that confers a privilege for marriage as opposed to it being a voluntary private contract?
            What the hell are chemtrails? Do tell …

  • BJ

    Why are you reposting all these comments from yesterday as though they are new posts?

  • LesleyNZ

    Re all that has gone on these past few days and now the subject of power prices and the latest Ray Morgan poll result. Listening to Leighton Smith right now. Not good. Heard one National Party guy say he is going to vote Winston Peters and never thought in a million years he would be. (Ditto for me too but not sure who I would vote for). Why? Because of the man of the moment Maurice Williamson and his fire and brimstone speech the other night where he scoffed the Christian belief and making fun of the Bible and the book of Deuteronomy and received loud clapping for doing so all because he received some crazy out there emails and phone calls. (And I will add Tau Henare’s speech as well). The “Be ye not afraid” (Deuteronomy 1:29) Bible verse he quoted means to “Trust in the Lord”. Wonder who wrote his speech? He didn’t have a clue about what Deuteronomy is and joked something about it being a cat. There are Christians in Maurice’s electorate, but of course – he doesn’t care – he has such a big majority. Maurice and Tau, and that guy Chris A and a few other liberal ones have tarnished the National Party for us more conservative types. Clearly got the message that National Party has been taken over by the liberal/and youth wing. So many great MPs in National – especially those who are not list MPs who work hard and are responsible to their electorate. Maurice is a hero to some now – but not to others. Whale and Kiwiblog and a lot of overseas media are singing his accolades and holding up the liberal ones as if they are the future of the National Party. Guess National doesn’t need the conservative vote anymore. So there we are – never ever thought that I would EVER be saying this about the National Party……………William Wilberforce said it clearly: “No matter how loud you shout, you will not drown out the voice of the people!” Lord Tarleton then replied in an arrogant pompous manner with – “People?”. The National Government let “the people” down. They didn’t listen to the voice of the people. There should have been a referendum at the next General Election.This gay marriage bill was not about minority human rights – it was about changing the foundation of our society and normalising and justifying homosexuality – so that we now have a “new normal” and the old normal has been done away with. Never ever thought that this would happen under National’s watch.

  • Marcus50

    Nup, pissing down at my place :)

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