What the Kiwisaver fund managers are saying about the Labour/Green economic terrorism

The fallout of the economic terrorism by the Labour party and Green party continues. Kiwisaver Fund Managers are now voicing their disquiet as millions continues to be wiped off our Kiwisaver accounts by the economic terrorism of the Labour and Green parties.

This is what Mark Warminger a portfolio manager at Milford Asset Managers, one of the countries best performing Kiwisaver managers had to say on their blog:

The Labour and the Green Party announced plans to establish a new agency, New Zealand Power, which would act as a single buyer of wholesale electricity. The plan would cut the nation’s power bills by up to $700 million a year, lowering household power bills by up to $330 a year, and giving the economy a $450 million annual boost according to Labour and Green Party analysis. This analysis is naïve and does not take into account the full direct and indirect costs.

NZ currently has $253bn of external debt and each 0.01% movement in the cost of debt adds $25m in interest payments. The uncertainty caused by the Labour/Greens Nationaliation by stealth policy is likely to add up to 1% to the cost of debt for New Zealand, due to lenders requiring an increased return for lending to a nation with political and economic instability. The cost of capital for all New Zealand companies will rise due to the same factors. A 1% increase in debt servicing costs for New Zealand’s overseas borrowing, in time would add up to NZ $2.5bn a year to the debt bill.

In addition to higher financing costs for the economy as a whole, the Government would receive around $450m a year less in dividends from the state owned power companies. The state owned power companies would need to write down asset bases by around 30% on an asset base of $15bn. This equates to $4.5bn of capital destroyed. 

And the morons in the Labour and Green parties are showing us that they simply cannot be trusted to be in charge of the economy.

The flow on effects to New Zealand’s listed power companies is just as detrimental. Analysis suggests that share prices for Contact Energy, TrustPower and Infratil could on average fall by 20%. This is around $1bn loss of wealth for New Zealanders when adjusted for overseas ownership of these companies. On top of this there will be a cut in dividends for the listed companies of say 20%, further reducing returns to New Zealand shareholders. This will adversely affect many KiwiSaver schemes that have direct exposure to these companies.

It seems inevitable should the Labour/ Greens proposal be enacted that the listed power companies would take legal action, based around property rights. This is likely to be lengthy and costly with the Government footing much of the bill.

This is wanton and deliberate sabotage of our economy on the part of the Greens and Labour.

In conclusion, to save $700m per annum from our total electricity bill the direct and indirect costs of such a scheme would be in the order of the following; $2.5bn in additional debt servicing costs, $450m reduction in dividends, $4.5bn asset write-downs from State owned enterprises, $1bn of capital destruction of the listed power companies and a reduction of $100m of dividends per annum to New Zealand shareholders. In addition, there will be highly skilled jobs lost as power companies reduce capital expenditure and development. In the short term this will not be an issue whilst demand catches up with supply but by the time supply and demand are in balance it will be too late to add additional capacity in a timely manner.

Rolling blackouts anyone?

Economic treason. People have wondered why I called the Green party the Green taliban. Look at those numbers and wonder no more.

 


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  • maninblack

    It is actually quite ridiculous. I cannot understand how labour greens are not getting flayed in the media.

    • unitedtribes

      There is a good reason for this. Take a guess

    • JeffDaRef

      Regardless of the media being left-leaning by nature, the main reason is that the stories are being covered by graduate reporters who have even less economic smarts than Russel Norman – and yes thats saying a lot!!!
      Any journo/commentator who actually understands finance (O’Sullivan and Gaynor spring to mind) have flayed it.

      • Lion_ess

        Bang on – JDR. So far the reaction I’ve perceived is headless chooks yelling and screaming “fire”.

    • unsol

      I agree.

      I know this is a little out there for right wingers, but perhaps it is us who should be going around getting petitions, protesting (in stages since right wingers tend to be the ones working & bringing in the tax revenue), writing to our local papers etc.

      Playing the game their own way is probably the only way we can get the MSM to pick up this crap & highlight it for all the muppets who don’t think about anything other than what immediately affects them; make no mistake, if these wankers get into government we are all going to feel the financial pain for a very long time.

    • Mr_Blobby

      Well to be fair how would you report on something like this.Its a bit like betting on red or black at the casino.

      Option 1. Buy as many shares in the power companies as you can, at the lower price.. When they get into power the economic reality of the policy dawns on them and it is quietly forgotten. the privatized power companies will continue the trend of the last 30 years and continue to hike up prices. Overseas corporations will offer you a premium for your shares and you will make a nice short term gain. The Government will claim it is powerless to do anything about it as they are private companies.

      Option 2. Don’t buy any shares in the power companies. When they get into power they will implement the policy and we will suffer the economic fallout.Pity those of you that have funds locked up in kiwi saver schemes, look at the damage done just by announcing the policy. Unfortunately at some stage it will become compulsory, as more funds are required to feed the ponzie scheme.

      So do you want the Red pill or the Black pill.

      Either prices will go up or we will suffer supply disruption problems of maybe both. Alternative power generation anyone.

      • rockape

        In both cases you assume a Labour /Green government. I think this policy may backfire as its annalysed and as the effects become clear. Getting a lot less for MRP for example,it will be difficult for Labour?Green to say that wasnt their doing.

  • Gazzaw

    It’s time to go to the country on this BUT the Nats must be 100% confident of their ability to get this message out to the electorate otherwise they will lose the swing vote and the election.

    • johnbronkhorst

      No…wait…even this morning coren dan was intimating that people were asking…..if power why not anything else and that this was a very left wing move by labour. Let this sink in…that one of the key reasons labour were voted out, was their interference in every part of peoples lives!

  • LesleyNZ

    There is the Labour Taliban now as well. Labour and the Greens are buying votes – much like Helen Clark did with the interest free student loan scheme. I am equating this Labour Green power saga to the light-bulb and shower-head saga we had with Labour and the Greens before 2006 election. National Govt needs to nip this rubbishy economically unsound stuff coming from the Labour/Green Taliban – in the bud. Problem is there are too many other distractions going on such as the new gay icon Maurice Williamson’s appearance on the Ellen Degenerates show and the PM’s endorsement of this. Get on and save our Kiwisaver and Contact Energy shares from economic sabotage instead. Get the Mighty River Power shares back on track.

    • Polish Pride

      and much like John Key did by borrowing to fund tax cuts….

      • johnbronkhorst

        dick head!!! income tax cuts….paid for by GST increase.

        • Polish Pride

          where still borrowing every month or do you only see the sunny side of every National policy John. You are the perfect National cheerleader aren’t you rain hail or shine….meanwhile back in the real world.
          Oh and is that GST John Key said he wouldn’t put up – oh well no honour amoung theives iss there,

          • johnbronkhorst

            More stupidity….the budget is being balanced, the economy is growing , the rate of borrowing is slowing, unemployment is coming down, endebtedness is under control.

          • Polish Pride

            This is good but we are still borrowing. Tell me john as National Party head cheerleader why is it that they don’t go after the 1-6 billion in tax evasion each year to solve our problems?

          • johnbronkhorst

            It is you who are pulling numbers out of a hat!!

          • Polish Pride
          • dianne65

            Hell I have been reading your comment’s Polish Pride, and you sure are gullible. Your the type, that Buffhead Shearer and Taliban Norman love. Wake up for goodness sake.

          • Polish Pride

            Dianne clearly you know very little about me or my political persuasion. I don’t vote. I see the system for what it is and how it can’t solve the problems that face us nor is it designed to. I see how the left versus right system keeps you locked onto a particular path where at best you are likely to get advancement on human rights type policies (see gay Marriage). I see how both sides of the political spectrum deal in and have there mantra based around a model of wealth redistribution. The left in the form of welfare taking from the rich and giving to the poor. The right through the changing of labour laws so that companies can essentially pay less for a days work and the redistribution of taxes in the form of corporate welfare. I call out a policy as I see it, and often alternate solutions. I often ask others who are complaining about a particular policy to put forward their own solution. Sometimes they do, most often they don’t. Many on here would like to remove benefits altogether but have absolutely no comprehension of what such a move would do to many businesses and the economy. I see a system that is not designed to help but simply to keep you locked in and participating.

            I see that we haave little more than a sham of a democracy, where politicians who are supposed to work for an listen to the people, do not and often go against the will of the very people they represent.

            I see how all it taakes for people to believe that this is still a democracy is because they get to vote once every three years.

            I see how the same problems have existed for my entire lifetime yet have not been able to be solved by either the left or the right. Yet these problems are solvable. There is just not the political will to do so. I see the stupidity of getting a soverign nation into debt by borrowing from a banking system that is able to create money from thin air.
            I see the stupidy of continuing with a system designed by Man that he has to turn around and work for in order to survive, when instead the system should be redesigned to work for all.
            I see a system where the thing that makes most people happiest is spending time with their friends and families yet the system is designed in a way where there is little time for this despite it being of utmost importants to all.
            I see a system that actively encourages mothers to leave their children in the care of strangers so that they to can work for reward in order to get ahead in life so that they can buy pretty things and hopefully one day have the money to allow them to spend time with their families.

            I could go on and on on this topic highlighting the many failings of the current system.

            So Dianne65 two questions:

            1:Is it really I that need to wake up here?

            2: Since you are not happy with the Policy from Labour and the Greens and power prices are only increasing, what is your solution to the problem………

          • blokeintakapuna

            Nicely articulated PP, but please explain for me…

            “I see the stupidy of continuing with a system designed by Man that he has to turn around and work for in order to survive, when instead the system should be redesigned to work for all. ”

            I’ve heard this same Argument a few times now, but no one can quantify how this “new system” would function and work, or what it would look like, whilst still for filling our Sovereign and international commitments and responsibilities?

            Thanks PP…

          • Polish Pride

            Well if I didn’t spend so much time on here I might have finished the book on that question. two options and the first will seem a little ridiculous….

            1st option – do a review of our international obligations, see which can be ended, altered and satisfied if need be via direct trade. If this can resolve all of them then do it. New Zealand needs to get at worst to a break even positiion or better back in the black before doing this.

            2nd – Declare Independance, rename the country and reconstitute. Should also to be neat and tidy be done from a break even or in the black position.

            A lot of work to transition us to that point will need to have gone one before hand and a lot of agreements with other Nations that we still want products and raw materials from. It is harder to do this in isolation without a doubt. But it is possible and made so by our primary export industries that there will always be a market for.
            As for how it would work. You would need to remove money from the equation. The best way to conceptualise it is to imagine everything you do in your world today then imagine exactly the same activities without having to pay. At this point you’ll start to go yes but we have people who get paid to do these roles……etc. and yes this is true. Now have a foundation goal of society to be to automate every role possible if it can be automated it should be. Its not Utopia there will still be plenty of roles that need to be done but these can be divided in a myriad of different ways
            – all work is performed by those in society between the ages of 25- 35 or 40 0r 45 and then you no longer have to work. Or work is performed as it is now but job shared so you work 3 months on 3 months off. As time goes on more and more will be automated and less will need to work.
            As for Govt – Direct democracy, backed by constitution, backed by Senate and Judiciary.
            This is just a snippet
            The best movie I have seen on it is Zietgiest Moving Forward but ignore the part about having it all planned. If you set it all up as reactive it will work.

          • Hazards001

            So…you don’t vote and you want an automated society where only some people work…correct?
            What’s the name of your book going to be? Charlie and the Chocolate Factory in Wonderland by any chance?

          • Polish Pride

            Think of it more as a society where the goal is to free as many people from having to work as possible using technology.
            The name of the book …well it’s changed a few times but probably ‘The Simple Truth’ a study into the society we should have. or something like that.

          • Polish Pride

            Hazard you’ve been living all your live in something akin to the wizard of Oz. It’s time to take a look behind the curtain. I used to ask why is the system like this or like that. Why do we do things this way or that way. The answer groing up was always ‘because thats just the way the system is’ Well It’s broken and we could have a system designed around the things that are important to everyone. We just need to understand the alternative and the potential and demand it. The great thing is the 15 – 25 year olds see it in greater numbers than I would have ever believed. The system we have doesn’t work for them like it did for us. I walked straight into a job when I left school and so did almost everyone else in my day. It’s not like that anymore and hasn’t been for quite some time.

          • Hazards001

            These days the 15-25 year old’s I see tend to have that entitled mentality about them which says they should get a job paying 70k as soon as they leave school, that their boss should see them driven to and from work and that mummy should make their lunch cos she always did and no they aren’t going to leave home because it’s to expensive in the real world.

            On the other hand at 15 I was working doing a trade and had left home.
            Hmmmmm….who’s judgement should I trust?

          • Polish Pride

            Its a different world today Hazard the same as it was for me when I left school and worked for the district council cleaning toilets, mowing lawns and doing the rubbish collection and I enjoyed it. But it was different in my fathers and my grandfathers day too. They are like that beacuse in their world everything is on tap. Its ready to go. If it means that they question the system and can see a better way for all then more power to them.
            In our day If you wanted to do something you had to get off your butt and do it yourself. For them most of what they want is provided by technology, so they ask why can’t technology do this or do that and the thing is that it can.

          • Hazards001

            ” For them most of what they want is provided by technology, so they ask
            why can’t technology do this or do that and the thing is that it can.”

            It can’t dig a ditch shear a sheep milk a cow clean the council toilet or anything else. It can assist but that’s all.

            You’re full of shit…no ones denying technology can help make life easier. Fuck me I’d never give up my digger for a shovel if I didn’t have too.

            But the computer can’t and never will be able to drive a digger…do you know why?
            Because it CANNOT make a decision! And never will be able too.

            You and the rest of people that think like you are the truly entitled. You’re downfall will be that day when your technology falls over and you have to rely on yourself. However…until then…more power to them.

          • Polish Pride

            Hazard there are a lot of jobs that will still need a real person to do them most definitely. That is why what I am talking about isn’t utopia and never will be that’s not the point. The point is its a damn sight better than what we have today.

            You talk about me thinking I’m entitled. No its not that at all. It’s just that myself and others can see a better way. I have worked my entire life (just like you) You talk about cleaning toilets well that’s where I started in life doing what many would consider shit jobs in todays world. I worked for the District Council cleaning toilets, doing the rubbish collection everyday and mowing the lawns around the district. But you know what it was one of the most enjoyable jobs I have ever done. I don’t sit here like many and have a winge and a moan, I simply seen problems and come up with solutions or find existing solutions that will fix them.

            One concept that I imagine you will like if we move to this new system I am sure you will appreciate – Unlike todays system a days work is exactly that a days work, whether you drive a bulldozer, a digger, clean toilets, a time n motion pen pusher, a lawyer, a doctor whatever. Why because whatever you are doing is taking you away from the things in life that are important to you as in individual to do something that will improve or provide a necessary function for society.

            It’s never about entitlement. Its actually about freedom.

            a days

          • BR

            Where do property rights fit in to all this?

            Bill.

          • Polish Pride

            That is up to the people within the society and initially they would remain as they are. You would still own whatever you do now. I personally would always see people owning their own home. But other things people might not want to or see the need to own under such a system. As an example most guys own a lawn mower (or two). I you don’t you eith can’t mow your lawns, pay someone else to or simply don’t have a lawn to mow. But think about how much you actually use it Once a fortnight in summer for an hour perhaps. Such things in a resource based economy would work better under a library or hire type system where you book it or just go in and pick it up when you need it and return it when your done. No need to pay for it No need to worry about maintenance. Its all done refuelled and ready to go when you come to pick it up. But again it would need to be something that people are comfortable with and people would still own things.

          • BR

            OK, so you are in favour of forcing people to hire a lawnmower rather than own one. Either that or you will leave it up to the individual to hire or own according to his preference, in which case you are advocating no change.

            Bill.

          • Polish Pride

            Nope noone is forcing anyone to do anything you still get to own your lawnmower you even get it serviced for free. It is actually a very cool system. Over time I imagine we will get to a point where people will become very comfortable not owning things as people will simply be able to get the things they need and want as and when they need and want them but will not need money to do so.
            That said there may indeed be areas of society where there is very little change at all. e.g. you want food you go to the supermarket. get what you need, put it through a self serve checkout. That interfaces with a computer system that records and automatically reorders the stock you have taken. No human intervention needed.

          • BR

            My solution to the problem is to first slash government spending. Round up the thousands of obstructive,expensive and useless government bureaucrats and put them on the dole. Disestablish any government department that serves no useful purpose (arts commission anyone? Waitangi tribunal?). The money saved could be used to build more generating capacity, but if it’s still not enough, no matter. Give tax incentives to private companies to supplement any further generating capacity. Ignore the superstitious bullshit from the Maori activists and their conga line of self-serving zealots. Do not attempt to appease green activists or their sensibilities. All these people have a negative attitude to life and are mostly useless bludgers. The reason that power prices ( and not just power prices ) are as high as they are is that far too much attention has been paid to these ungrateful waste-of-space parasites.

            Bill.

          • Polish Pride

            And what do you do about the protests, riots and the civil unrest. The thing is since we have been talking about RBE, these Hydro Dams are largely automated. Take the money out of the equation and they still produce power for everyone.They still operate just as they are supposed to.

          • BR

            So all the overpaid and obstructive bludgers should continue to loot the earnings of the productive people because if they are not appeased, they will resort to violence, and that must be avoided at all costs.

            Have I got that right?

            Bill.

          • Polish Pride

            No – the goal is not about having more and more productivity from people. It is about freeing them so they can spend more time doing the things that they really want to be doing. Spending more time with friends and family. Doing things that they are passionate about, learning things that they are interested in.
            There’s no looting of any earnings because there is no longer the need to have money. Money has become an obstacle that stops us doing many of the things we need to do.

          • 4077th

            That’ll be the solo slag bags from Massey and Ranui claiming DBP and whoring their fat arses out in the evenings for cash. Other evaders would be half of Otara claiming multiple benefits while working. How about we start there? Oh wait…that would be your voting base wouldn’t it!

          • Polish Pride

            4077th firstly I don’t really think that gets us anywhere near 1-6 billion and I am sure it is occuring both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between.
            secondly – I don’t vote Then its not my fault when the shit hits the fan as I didn’t help enable the system. So I am not sure where you have me pegged as coming from but I don’t have a voting base. I am more in the camp of The system is broken, we need a new one, and it’s not going to be fixed by any of the current political parties.
            Not everyone who points out failings of the government is automatically from. the other end of the political spectrum.
            The thing that gets me is that if everyone woke up to this they might just have enough money in the coffers for us to be out of debt and for everyone to have another tax cut.

          • rockape

            Do you not even read the papers or watch the news, Millions of new money being spent by IRD yield billions from tax evasion back to the government. Stop believing everything you get from Labour HQ, think and find out youself. There is this thing called Google, its realy good!

          • Polish Pride

            Can you post a link – genuine request.
            I know much of the work IRD has done and know they are having some successes but was of the opinion they still had a long way to go.

          • LabTested

            No. We are borrowing to pay Working For Families & Interest Free student loans

          • Polish Pride

            Alright I can concede I may have been wrong this time (on the GST tax cuts part) you have made valid points. Mark this day on the calendar.
            I could go into the whole well raise taxes so we don’t have to borrow or cut working for families (something many on here would rub there hands with glee over I’m sure) but both would be seriously bad ideas for an economy that is emerging from the tail end of a recession and has started to maintain slow but steady growth.

          • LabTested

            Yes you are right – your words. We continue to spend more than we have. So lets cut spending. WFF, Interest Free student loans for obscure courses.

            Remember the last time this lot was in power they spent $9M on Sing Along Radio courses & called it education, but said there was no way they could cut taxes .. and they bought a train set (talk about Corporate Welfare for TOLL)

            So I agree, lets cut stupid spending

          • Polish Pride

            I’d agree with all but WFF cutting this would likely have an adverse effect on the economy right now.

          • LabTested

            So you think that people living in a $1M house with no mortgage should get WFF just because they can pay an accountant to structure their revenue into legal entities that reduce per personal income?

            Even if you do not use an accountant. A family earning $100,000 a year with 4 kids will get $115 a week in WFF. That is almost $6000 a year

            https://interact2.ird.govt.nz/forms/famcalc2013/858b6e37415d5a823975281d585c500a071d5963.continue;jsessionid=04F92A4DD2990817FA7C05B90381CCB3.frc

          • Polish Pride

            yeah no don’t really agree with that. More thinking WTF!!??!! …….but in my view WFF was designed as an incentive to couples to produce future little tax payers to help cover super for an aging population,

          • Lion_ess

            Well it’s not doing that is it?

          • unsol

            But they are never going to be taxpayers are they – if you are getting anything from the State by way of assistance or failing to pay enough tax to cover your birth in the public hospital (assuming of course you pick up private insurance when you are of working age), State education (take the private example & this alone is $15k p/a) & your future Super then you are not a taxpayer. You are a bludger.

            Given only 10-13% of NZers are nett taxpayers…..remembering this also excludes many farmers and the real rich, then most NZers are producing little people who will grow up & have the same sense of entitlement and poor decision making ability as their parents.

            As for borrowing for tax cuts I am AMAZED you quoted that BS rhetoric from MSM & the left. Lets not forget taxes are our money in the first place – it is what we earned. So when the govt cuts them they are giving us back more autonomy over our own money. This is very much part & parcel of right ideology – to reduce State interference, encourage user pay & let people manage their own lives.

            The only reason why this govt is borrowing anything is because they don’t have the balls to cull the policies that are driving this country into the ground – namely the Welfare State & things like student allowance & interest free loans. Personally I’m inclined to include health & State education in here too however, there is no mood to make this entirely user pays so I keep it out.

            Anyway I can see you have be busy fending off the wolves, but just wanted to give you my 2 cents worth :-)

            I am disappointed you don’t vote – I don’t see how abstaining will ever get you want you want. Change takes time. Vote for someone who leans slightly towards the values you have then push them a little further. That’s what I do.

          • Polish Pride

            I checked this when I was in the middle of painting the kitchen and dining room for the wife and made it 1 hour before I had to down tools and reply.

            Net tax payers no. But still taxpayers. In any tax paying society there will always be a large percentage of the population that are taking more from the system than they receive. From age 0 – 17+ (insert whatever you feel to be the appropriate age for 17) it can easily be argued that each person already has a debt to society from health care, education and whatever other public services they have used. I.e. using such an example all people at sometime in their lives will be indebted to the system. Ok that said without these people, who yes, take more than they put in. Without them our economy would collapse. They like net tax payers spend their income with a variety of different privately owned businesses and companies. Those businesses employ people, many of whom are not net tax payers yet do exactly the same thing I.e. spend there money with other privately owned. businesses or companies (both public and private companies then you can add on sole traders and partnerships). These people help keep the wheels of the economy turning and without them it falls over. Even beneficiaries are a part of this.

            Working for families incentivises couples thinking of having kids to have them. Many sensible parents when looking at whether to have a first second or third child look at whether they can afford them. When they do this in this day and age they will find out and factor in what entitlements they are going to get from the government and factor that into their decision.

            That’s the first part. So we have established that these people are needed to keep the economy going. But more importantly through the money go round of the economy (and I am shortening it A: because you are intelligent and will get the gist & B: this will be a long reply as it is and may even rival some of your own posts ha ha ;) enable the 10 – 13% of net tax payers to be just that…..net tax payers.

            That’s the first thing. Now those that are not net tax payers still do pay taxes (and we have already established that we need them for the economy) Now stop them paying the tax that they do. The net tax payers won’t cover everything that is currently provided so you will have to cut a hell of a lot. So what are you going to cut?

            Beneficiaries okay that’s cool but a few businesses just went from break even to making a loss and will now have to close down despite having a high turnover on which the govt was getting a decent amount from GST each month. Of course their workers all got laid off too but that’s cool they probably weren’t net tax payers anyway. A few other businesses decided to lay off workers so they could continue operating..

            We got rid of the benefit so there families will have to look after them until they can find another job. Discretionary income that they had just got reduced which in turn means more businesses making a bit less and so on and on.

            What else are you going to cut? I’m sure their is lots that could be but there are implications and it may not make the country a better place to live. It might even result more crime and the need to send some of that money you saved on more policing, you might need to spend the rest on more prisons.
            You might see an increase in people living in abject poverty, more homeless people and so on.
            The point is that there are consequences for each action. Some for seen and intended, but equally there will be consequences that are unforeseen and unintended.
            Let me give you two scenarios to consider:
            1: There is a second downturn in the economy or a new technology (watch the 3D printing space) that kills your business and you have to close it down. It was unexpected and unforeseen. It hits you hard and even any funds you put aside for a rainy day aren’t enough.
            2: You and your husband aren’t around anymore and your child/children have grown up and gone to make their way in the world with all the knowledge that you have given them to prepare them. Despite this they make a bad decision and get some bad luck. They find themselves out of work.

            Like it or hate it, the system is not like it is to create a percentage of the populace that has an entitlement mentality. That is an example of an unintended consequence. The system is there as it is now to provide a safety net for the types of scenarios I presented above. The system as it is gives you a helping hand when you need it. The alternative sees people living on the street possibly never able to get back on their feet again. Which system do you want to live in?
            It can be frustrating when you see people with an entitlement mentality when you are busting your arse and are being a net tax payer. But what is the percentage that actually do have an entitlement mentality. Because most will not. Most will in fact be hard working individuals that because of their chosen trade simply do not earn enough to be a net tax payer. Should these people not have a family? Well if they don’t you are either going to have to increase immigration tenfold or more or one day your economy will collapse.
            You say you would include health and education in there too. I will come back and reply to this and the not voting part later (before I get in trouble with the wife)
            Also I want to know what you think of a Resource based economy that has a reactive system (i.e. as capitalism works but without the money and not planned) If you have looked at it. Don’t pull any punches (not that you would). I want to understand what someone I’d consider to be quite intellectual with your particular political persuasion thinks of it and why?

          • unsol

            Wow that is a massive reply! You & the author of Sophie’s World would get on very well I suspect….you’re bog on big ideas! :-)

            I have about 2 minutes before getting dinner on the go then it is a weekend of painting (daughter’s room – she is having holiday with her grandparents :))

            Taxes – I am a big fan of making the distinction between net taxpayers & those who are, well not. But in this case, your argument is a tad circular – or maybe opposite to my circular argument so maybe we are saying the same thing! Haha if people have access to more of their own money in the first place then technically they are less likely to be as much of a burden on the state. Hence why I am a fan. Coupled with that of course must be personal responsibility in terms of the choices they make re how to spend that money. From this one could weed out state services such as public health & education so that people start to adjust their lives to pay for these things themselves. Many of us already do. This means that while they may not earn enough o pay back what they have already used, they would be ensuring that their children are more likely to be nett taxpayers – starting with private health care at birth through to private education & have life insurance, perhaps income protection & sufficient savings (always minimum 3 months) should times get tough etc.

            But in order for any of this to happen things must be more affordable via costs coming down & real wages going up.

            Just 2 seconds of theory off the top of my head.

            Re RBE – a fan in theory, but haven’t really delved too much into it. Reading WO takes up a lot of my reading time (except books). Kids = brain tires a lot quicker than it used to so I find reading complex theories etc take a few goes!

            Have a good weekend PP :-)

          • LabTested

            ‘you have made valid points. Mark this day on the calendar.’

            Don’t be so condescending. I (try to) make valid points every day.

            You can not even admit you are wrong without being a tosser

          • Polish Pride

            Sorry LabTested It is hard to convey emotion through blog posts (I guess I could have put a smiley face I s’pose). I wasn’t trying to be a tosser or condeescending with “Mark this day on the Calendar” It’s a phrase I use when I am proven wrong on something on the balance of probabilities. It doesn’t happen that often and I mostly use it with my wife. I’m sorry but It just doesn’t.
            Many on here will often not like what I have to say but often it is because I have pointed out a truth that makes them uncomfortable.
            You do make valid points but I can be stubborn as a mule. So to change my mind on something, you will need to present facts as you have and earn my respect as you have.
            You and IVV changed my mind because you presented valid arguments contrary to mine and did so without resulting to insults. Something I will always respect.

          • rockape

            Remember your truth isnt the truth unless its backed up by some evidence, unless you can do that its just opinion. Be a bit more humble. Polish pride is in danger of becoming polish prick!

          • Polish Pride

            Polish pride can be polish prick from time to time – just pull him up on it when he is, He won’t mind I hear he’s pretty thick skinned.

          • Ronnie Chow

            Polish , every country is swimming in toxic algae at the moment . NZ has more oxygen than most other countries in the world . Name the countries doing better .

          • Polish Pride

            It depends on what measures you want to run with.
            GDP
            Happiness
            Lowest Crime
            Greatest Wealth
            Average Wage rate
            Average hours per week worked
            Yes we are doing comparative well in what is now a very flawed system. We could however be doing significantly better. Even you Mr Chow it just depends on what you are using to measure the success of your society….

          • Ronnie Chow

            Comparatively well , or best ? How could we do better ? Only 5% of beneficiaries are the unemployed . Do better at what ?
            The single major issue affecting everyone is the real estate bubble .

          • Polish Pride

            Better in my book is to have everyone on a higher standard of living than what they are now. Have their needs and wants met and working half of what they do now.

            But you Mr Chow are an interesting case for RBE and it needs to be understood as to what it means for where you are. I am sure there would be many benefits but would there be downsides. The theory is no but would that be the reality…

          • Ronnie Chow

            The only REAL way to raise the standard of life for most would be to replace the temporary happiness of material goods with greater investment into giving people’s life MEANING .

      • DavidW

        GST traded off for the tax cuts. What part of fiscally neutral do you not understand …… dumbass

        • Polish Pride

          Show me the real figures to show it is fiscally neutral and I will gladly retract.

          • johnbronkhorst

            Freely available…..look them up yourself!!!

      • In Vino Veritas

        Incorrect Polish. Please don’t make things up.

      • Goldie

        Piss off troll.

        • Polish Pride

          No Not really just waiting for you guys to wake up to the fact that there is not really a great deal of difference between both parties. They both have a similar modus operandai when it comes to many things including election bribes. But it never ceases to amaze me that you only seem to see it when the left does it, and those on the Left only seem to see it when the Right does it. I hate hypocrasy and it is rife on both sides of the political spectrum so I continue to point it out on both sides in the hope that one day you will WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!……………. I’m sorry I meant awaken from your slumber and start to see the system for what it is.

      • rightoverlabour

        Just read your reply below, I’ll take back my personal attack. However, the Green Labour coalition is a real threat to our democracy and market economy. They need to be exposed for what they are before we regret it for the foreseeable future.

  • Gazzaw

    Deleted. Dupe post.

  • Guest

    H

  • amerikiwi

    Hugo made it work?

  • seems to me

    Seems to me that this energy bill refund idea from the left is Tax cuts by another name that will have to be funded by overseas borrowing?

    • johnbronkhorst

      .dick head!!! income tax cuts….paid for by GST increase

      • seems to me

        Oh joy another erudite reply typed before thinking….oh dear.
        Think about a soundbyte to offset the lefties soundbyte of “saving consumers money…..hence my attempt at a soundbyte…. Its like a taxcut BUT will need to be funded by borrowing. Maybe the thought process of loss of Gummint dividends/tax take etc has slipped you by?
        Even better…Gimme your best shot for a rebuttal soundbyte to the lefties?

        • johnbronkhorst

          REALLY??? and how exactly are you right??…Oh you aren’t!!!!

          • Polish Pride

            what john? couldn’t formulate a proper argument in response and that was the best you could come up with. Explain to him how he is not right john if that is what you believe. I know its hard……. but just try, just this one time, See if you can do it without an insult too johnny. I know you can, where all here for you John.

          • johnbronkhorst

            BULL SHIT sums it up!!
            The savings are not there, the maths is shonky and doesn’t pass the “pocket calculator test, let alone further investigation!!!
            The effects will be to INCREASE demand, for which we don’t have the capacity to supply.
            The costs of future investment and expansion in demand (which is inevitable) will not be covered by current profits, so will have to be borrowed against (these numbers are in the 10’s of BILLIONS).
            The knock on effect is, the fact that if they can do it to the power industry, what other industries do they have their eye on (simply to attempt to buy votes with these kind of lies)???

          • Polish Pride

            And all without an insult – so proud :)
            keep posting like that and I’ll stop being a condescending prick too.
            ahh happy days.

          • seems to me

            till waiting for your offsetting soundbite John :-) Oh sorry all you can do is regurgitate Bull shit……come on…. a man with your intellect and knowledge on all things must be able to come up with a simple soundbite to neutralise the lefties ……

          • johnbronkhorst

            No sound bite, I leave those to you and PP that filter your remarks through the bumper sticker book of Marxist quotes!!!

        • johnbronkhorst

          Saving consumers money??? Really? How? the numbers as usual don’t add up. If you lower prices you will increase demand, where is the supply coming from for this??

  • jagilby

    Let’s organise a protest. Seriously.

    • Booooooooooooo

    • Oldgolfer

      Good plan

      • steve and monique

        Shame we(NZers) could not take these idiots to court,for the loss of money they have caused the country (deliberate economic sabotage).

        • Oldgolfer

          Too true but their plan, hour by hour, is backfiring

    • Lion_ess

      What are you going to protest about? National Government is yet to address this Labour/Greens brain-fart – I’m sure they will – and I’m sure they’ll do a good job on it when they do.
      I’m surprised that commenters on here are so reactionary when the matter is yet to be fully addressed via proper channels.
      Good on Whale for keeping this topic to the forefront and providing available reporting and commentary – but I agree with John Key who spoke fairly dismissively on Labour’s only idea on TV3 this morning – personally I’ll be surprised if this has the legs to get to the next election.

      • jagilby

        Well maybe not a protest, how about a “solidarity” march to show support for the current Government?

      • unsol

        We don’t need clarity on left policies before having a reason to protest. Clarity & the left are mutually exclusive. But we can protest against how much air time the MSM gives to the left. Or protest about the constant BS being fed to us as fact. Perhaps protest that such fools are getting paid with our money. Or even protest that some muppet can enter parliament after he pulled out of Commerce to study aliens. How about protest that even the mere threat of such a stupid policy has had such a detrimental impact on the share market….endless list really!

  • Saccharomyces

    Surely Lab/Greens have no intention of following through with this, all they intend is to talk down the asset sales, so they can then come back with “you didn’t get what you said you would for the assets”…… surely….

    I mean, even the Wussell can’t be this dumb.
    I can’t believe how the general populace seem to have fallen for it hook, line and sinker though….

  • Polish Pride

    Lets take a closer look shall we

    Statement:

    The Labour and the Green Party announced plans to establish a new agency, New Zealand Power, which would act as a single buyer of wholesale electricity. The plan would cut the nation’s power bills by up to $700 million a year, lowering household power bills by up to $330 a year, and giving the economy a $450 million annual boost according to Labour and Green Party analysis. This analysis is naïve and does not take into account the full direct and indirect costs. – fact (as in this is what Labour have said the numbers will be)…….

    NZ currently has $253bn of external debt and each 0.01% movement in the cost of debt adds $25m in interest payments. – fact

    The uncertainty caused by the Labour/Greens Nationaliation by stealth policy is likely to add up to 1% to the cost of debt for New Zealand, due to lenders requiring an increased return for lending to a nation with political and economic instability. The cost of capital for all New Zealand companies will rise due to the same factors. A 1% increase in debt servicing costs for New Zealand’s overseas borrowing, in time would add up to NZ $2.5bn a year to the debt bill. –
    pure conjecture Not really fact based at all at least not as can be seen by the article. As this type of policy has been implemented in a few countries around the world surely he can present some evidence to show that when such a policy has been introduced in a country in the past the cost of lending for that country has gone up. Any evidence? Anything at all ? Or is he just scaremongering. The only thing that we can be sure of is that he’s a little pissed because this anouncement and what has happened to share prices in the energy sector has made his job a little bit harder and he probably has some very unhappy customers.
    I have never seen so much frothing at the mouth over a policy announcement. It can only mean one thing. Labour and the Greens are onto a vote winner and the champions Right know it.
    If he has some actual evidence to back up what he is saying will happen or examples then by all means lets hear it. Otherwise he too is simply frothing at the mouth.
    .

    • LesleyNZ

      And what about the power companies who already give their customers savings by way of a yearly dividend? Some customers already get savings. You are defending the Greenlabour Party because you can not see the wood for the trees. (And I am not at all in love with National like I used to be – but I do see a dumb and stupid policy as it is.) Take the advice from Milford Asset Managers – they know far more about this subject than you, me and the Greenlabour Taliban with their silly MPs who are intent on sabotaging NZ economically to save face on their failure to stop the PARTIAL asset sales. Shame on them for attempting to jeopardize my grandchild’s future.

      • Polish Pride

        Leslie Truth be told they are probably saving your grandchildrens future when you look at the bigger picture.

    • johnbronkhorst

      and added infrastructure will be paid for how?
      long term maintenance will be paid for how?
      Oh yes 10’s of billions in new borrowing!!!

      • Polish Pride

        Electricity companies aren’t interested in investing in long term infrastructure, not in this country. Not without a massive govt subsidy or without carbon credits to pay for it (at best you’ll get a few more windfarms ruining the landscape). Nope they are interested in high short term profits. Why? because thats what shareholders want.
        Oh and move to a Resource Based Economy and added infrastructure and long term maintenance won’t cost you a cent.

        • johnbronkhorst

          BULL SHIT all companies invest in long term expansion plans, because it ensures their long term survival and profitability!! This basic tenet seems to be beyond an idiot like you!!!

          • Polish Pride

            No John not all companies do especially not on such big ticket items not when there is the very real chance of obtaining corporaate welfare from the government to do so. Name the last large piece of electricity generation infrastructure built by an electricity generation company paid for without corporate welfare or carbon credits. In fact Johnny many companies sell assets when they can and lease them back so they can avoid maintenance costs and write of the lease as an expense.

          • johnbronkhorst

            WRONG…do you get tired of being wrong all the time??
            ALL companies MUST invest to meet current and future demand. Because they, unlike you understand that it means the collapse of their own company if they don’t. As for “big ticket items”…they live in a world where the numbers all have a lot of zero’s…it’s just a number! Workers deal in 100’s of dollars, companies like this deal in 100’s of millions of dollars!!

          • Polish Pride

            Yes thats why our broad band is on par with the rest of the world John because of all the investment in infrastructure.
            It doesn’t mean the collapse of their company not in the world of electricity generation. Benmore Dam isn'[t going to fall apart what it might mean is more blackouts as demand increases as the population grows but hey remind me again John how does the market react to increased demand?

          • 4077th

            In this instance I think you have a point PP BUT…seriously this attempt at “policy” by Normal and Sheep has only one purpose and that is to put a giant broomstick in the spokes of the MRP share offer. Wake up FFS!

          • Polish Pride

            With all due respect That is what I have said this policy was at the very beginning when it was announced

          • johnbronkhorst

            IDIOT…no benmore won’t fall apart IF the proper long term maintenance is done. Which is what the profits pay for (over and above day to day running. Also it isn’t about benmore falling over it’s about not meeting demand, as demand increases (inevitable) we will NEED another benmore if money isn’t put aside from profits, it will require HUGE borrowing. Refer back to just after benmore was built, a govt. report pointed outr that unless a SUBSTANTIAL infrastructure project was built, we would run out of electricity by mid 80’s. Kirk got in…did nothing. FORCING Muldoon to BORROW billions to build the clyde dam.We still ran out of power in Mid 80’s!!!

          • Ronnie Chow

            How earthquake proof is that Benmore dam ?

          • johnbronkhorst

            Survived so far.

          • johnbronkhorst

            Just driven around Wellington, there are guys EVERWHERE, installing the new fibre network for UFB.

          • BR

            Have you ever run a business?

            Any given company reacts to more demand by creating more supply, and they damn well better create it because if they don’t someone else will.

            Bill.

          • Polish Pride

            Bill I run one right now. Any business reacts to demand by creating more supply provided it can do so. If it can’t create more supply then it can raise prices to take advantage of the increased demand.

          • johnbronkhorst

            so you are saying the labour/green plan WON’T work. You finally agree with us. Thank You
            Demand will go up, supply won’t (because there are no profits to pay for it) so prices will RISE!!! So NO savings from this plan!!!

          • Hazards001

            There have been numerous attempts to build large new hydro schemes. They have all been hijacked and derailed by the Melons the NIMBYS and the RMA.

    • In Vino Veritas

      Polish, dont’ be a complete knob. Nationalisation = instant investmentpolitical instability. That will be a fact. Lenders react to risk and increase their premium when risk increases, this is basic economicsfinance. Investors react to risk and demand higher returns to compensate.These are facts. Cost of capital will rise, cost of borrowing will rise. It’s happened since time immemorial, why would it not for NZ?
      For evidence, see Greece. Their crown debt borrowing costs spiralled out of control due to more borrowing and higher interest rates. You would have to be spectacularly niave to believe otherwise.

      • Polish Pride

        I don’t believe it is Nationalisation by definition. In fact I think they have been very clever to come up with a solution that doesn’t Nationalise anything ie. no private company is being taken into public ownership. They are creating a new entity that will interface with existing private companies that will continue to operate and make profits. Many are trying to turn this into something it isn’t. It is very similar (not exactly the same) as what happens with Pharmac, Fonterra, and Zespri.
        Unfortunaately the market cannot solve everything in the timeframes required and without placing undue hardship on many before it does. Perhaps this is one of those times.

        • In Vino Veritas

          For goodness sake Polish, you cannot be that niave. By setting prices they are effectively taking away a private company’s ability to recover its cost of capital. They are also saying that they know better than the experts in the electricity sector. It is nothing like what happens in Pharmac. Pharmac buys at the best prices from suppliers, it doesnt set the price. Fonterra suppliers have a choice to supply to other buyers, plus the suppliers can own part of Fonterra. Zespri the same. None of the entities you cite are anything like what Labour and the Greens are proposing to do.

          You have listened to the socialists for too long Polish, the market reacts relatively quickly, more quickly generally than any Government. You are pinning your views on electricity pricing on the LabourGreens view of the Wolak report (which incidentally was done in 2009), a report that has been found to be incorrect with regard to part of its methodology and conclusions. If Labour and Greens had read the report and the subsequent analysis of the report, they would have found that Wolaks $4.3bn gouging was a nonsense, and vastly overstated.

          • Polish Pride

            I did say similar (Not the same) in that their function is to obtain the best price for a group of individuals be it farmers, kiwifruit growers or kiwis in general.
            But lets say that you are 100% correct for the moment. There is a problem electricity prices for many are too high and have been for a long time. What is your solution and please don’t just say leave it to the market, because the market will fix it but it will be too late for many and even at the point it is fixed the prices might be significantly higher than now.

          • In Vino Veritas

            Polish. Go read the Wolak report that LabourGreens are relying on. Then read the analysis of it – all available on the net. Just Google. Take out GST increase and ETS and prices have risen by 2% per annum since 2008, or roughly inflation. So their argument is utter bollocks, well lets rephrase that, they are lying. You also need to school yourself up on recovering cost of capital, since profits take no account of CAPEX.

          • Polish Pride

            It’s ok I trust you (one of the few on here I might add) If this is true then this is the single best argument I have seen but………, again we are where we are and this policy has been put out to solve a problem for many -that power prices are too high..
            If your argument is that they are NOT too high because taking out GST and ETS they have only risen at about the rate of inflation. Whilst this is valid it will not solve the desire for people to pay less than what they are paying now and why this policy could very well gain significant traction amongst a large section of voters.
            So is there any alternate solution?
            I can see how the market will solve it in time but by that stage the power prices will be so high there will be an appetite in some corners for full nationalisation of the entire power industry generation and lines companies included. (ok possibly an exaggeration but you get my point).

          • In Vino Veritas

            Yes there is a solution. Power that can be sourced cheaper over time. This issue in NZ is not operating costs, but capital cost of new generation capacity. The simple solution would be nuclear. But, then you have an ideological issue with firstly, the Green Taliban (who I might add, arent averse to slaughtering millions of birds in windfarms – see their reaction to the Rena’s 2K of dead birds) and then Labour. The solution is staring themselves in the face.

          • Polish Pride

            I do like this idea by the way so long as its not on a major fault line and inland enough so tidal waves aren’t a problem and if they can do closed loop then even better.

          • Polish Pride

            I did post this morning to say I thought this was a good idea in the medium term especially if not placed on a fault line or anywhere it could be tsunami. Even better if it can be a closed loop system – but it doesn’t seem to have appeared so I apologise if this ends up being a double post tomorrow.

          • BR

            How low do you think power prices should be, and who’s responsibility should it be to decide the price?

            Bill

          • Polish Pride

            Its not something I really have an opinion on to be fair. We don’t use much power and are looking to go off grid.

          • Phill

            Fonterra your shining light? Explain to me why we pay $2.50/lt for milk when its grown in our back yard. Explain to me why farmers moan about hard time while they take record payouts and Fonterra makes billions. (The CEO is paid around $7m per year after his bonuses. Way more than any power co. CEO)

            Sound like super profits to me and something should be done to make a necessary food staple cheaper to all NZers.

            Like other brainwashed lefties, you have fallen for the shiney promise of $300 per year off your power bill. But think for yourself. 300 free KW’s at $0.18 per Kw = $54 per year. Now consider what a comprehensive ETS, Extra Fuel taxes and road user charges, a CHCH earchquake levy and the various other additional “taxes” the greens want to impose, and your $54 per year gets eaten up real quick.
            Don’t be one of the lemmings….think for yourself.

          • Lion_ess

            How anyone could be tempted by an uncosted bribe of between $230 and $330 dollars per year is hilarious (cringeworthy). Hardly orgasmic stuff, is it? It’s a bloody third world insult – not like our Kevin across the Tasman, go and have a look at the stimulus package he implemented in 2008 – there was some seriously good bribery there.
            $230 per year – fuck off David – go and play with your offshore wank account.

          • Phill

            I agree..but unfortunately, history shows that voters can be bribed/will fall for lesser amounts…such as WFF and interest free student loans.

          • Polish Pride

            Well actually I’ll be off the grid soon so the promise of $300 per year does nothing for me as such. Oh and I can think for myself thanks I have been astounded by the scaremongering thats all.
            Such as the cost of overseas borrowing is going to sky rocket. It won’t!
            Or They’re going to Nationalise all corporations in New Zealand! All based on this one policy. Oh Please. It seems more to me that many on the right need to switch there brains back on and focus on alternatives like IVV put forward rather than making ridiculous statements about the sky falling.

          • Polish Pride

            If this is a double post I apologise in advance but an earlier one dissapeared.
            I’ll be off the grid sooner or later and $300 per annum is not much to me luckily
            I can and do think for myself thankyou very much.
            What concerns me is the frothing at the mouth and running around like chicken little with the sky falling responses from some on the Right
            Things like its from the school of North Korean Economics (seriously is that the best he could do!!??!!).
            Or that this policy means the following:
            The cost of borrowing overseas for NZ will sky rocket!!! – It won’t..
            (my personal favourite) This policy means that all corporations are going to be Nationalized!!
            Seriously I don’t think its me that needs to switch my brain on. If your not happy with it don’t sit there foaming at the mouth or crying into your coffee. Come up with some sound viable alternatives. … Like IVV did.
            In fact that is the first alternative I have seen put forward since the policy was announced, that would actually do something about the cost of power.

          • Phill

            Nationalisation: (From dictionary.com)
            Verb – 1. To put (an industry, resources, etc) under state control or ownership. 2. To make national in scope, character, or status
            Noun – 1. The action of forming or becoming a nation [syn:
            nationalization], 2. The action of rendering national in character [syn:
            nationalization], 3. changing something from private to state ownership or control
            Which part of State Control do you not understand?

            Foaming at the mouth comments…really…drama queen much?

            “Things like it’s from the school of North Korean Economics……”
            – When the Govt/State starts telling you when and what you can produce, who you will sell to and what prices you have to charge….that is called communism. Such as the model in North Korea. (How’s that going for them?)

            “The cost of borrowing overseas for NZ will sky rocket……”
            When risk increases for investors, e.g.: when the authorities say we will change the rules but we can’t tell you the details yet, people want a greater return for taking that risk. That generally means the interest rates increase. This is economics 101. (4th form economics level) (EG: – Would you buy an investment property in the Govt stipulated that you can only have a 3-4% return? What is a fair return? Who decides that? Russell Norman? Gareth Hughes? David Shearer? David Parker? What are their credentials in the electricity sector?)

            So demand goes up because everyone has cheaper power. There
            are no dividends anymore because labour/greens have decided they don’t need them after all. (After making such a fuss about losing them thru partial privatisation) so who is going to pay for any new generation/maintenance needed. (Labour /Green as working on “reasonable return on operating costs.) Why would you invest in a new power station when the state is limiting your return?

            Labour Govt./ Cullen insisted on higher dividends from state
            power co.’s to pay for their lolly scrambles. That’s why power prices rose so dramatically

            So no dividends anymore….where does the $$ come from to
            replace that income for the govt? – Oh yeah…printing some more – also covered in 4th form economics…see inflation)

            A viable alternative you ask…..how about a partial
            privatisation so we can a) pay off the debt that Cullen got us into with his politicized hand-outs (WFF, Student loans etc…) b) encourage completion in the market, allowing people to have a choice and vote with their feet. C) While still retaining a controlling stake so we have the clout required at the boardroom table.

          • BR

            The market can’t fix it because the market is being restrained by the politicians. The government should get the hell out of the way and allow the market to operate unobstructed.

            Bill.

          • Polish Pride

            I know the argument I just don’t see how in the short term. Its not like your changing the business structures in place just the shareholding even if you sell 100% of govt shares in all of them.

          • rockape

            If that were their only aim why dont they allow competition! They have said they will control all power sales. Whats the need for that, just control their own little company and compete on price with wharts their now. The reason they dont is their sytem would fail.

          • Polish Pride

            That did cross my mind too actually but I don’t think it works the same. e.g. they would be in a position the same as Meridian, contact etc.They could pass on the power at cost but that in itself would cause an uproar and do potentially greater damage to the sector.

    • LabTested

      I don’t know how old you are, but I lived in Poland in the very early 90’s just following the end of Communism. I strongly suggest that you phone any relative you have there and ask them how much they enjoyed having government monopolies running every aspect of their life.

      If you are going to advocate Socialism, then please change your user name, because no Pole I know would be proud to promote this left wing idiology

      • Polish Pride

        Jesus I really need to change my name – I think this must be about the fifth time I haave explained this. but yes it is my fault for picking the name.
        My wife is Polish
        She an her family escaped Communist Poland on passports that shouldn’t have been issued in the middle of thye night.
        I am not R or L or C
        What I am is infavour of having a system that works for man rather than man having to work for the system in order to survive which is simply ludicrous.
        I am not a fan of Capitalism – It has served its purpose and is now hindering rather than helping society.
        I am not in favour of Communism – as a system it did not give power to the people and even failed to provide the most basic needs for all at times.
        I am not Socialist – I am not in favour of any system that has much of its basis in taking from one to redistribute to another.
        I am in favour of transitioning to a reactive model of a Resource Based Economy as that will give everyone a far better standard of living than what we have today without having to take from anyone..
        Happy?

        • LabTested

          You are not a Socialist? Well then I invite you to read your posts.

          Have you heard about the Wroclaw Dwarf movement? If not ask your wife

          They even build a statue to immortalise what Polish people think about Socialists. Right in the center of town a big statue of a stiff middle finger tell Socialist to F*** off

          Please change you user name, cos really, if you were Polish, you would be a traitor to the Revolution

          • Polish Pride

            I reread them and I’m sorry but I don’t see it. I call it as I see it and don’t foam at the mouth over this policy. Just trying to inject some reality into the debate. Calling it as I see it if you will.
            feel free to post one you think is that way inclined. But I am neither Socialist or Capitalist or communist or Libertarian. I am anti system on many levels.

            People living in Poland now are still living a very hard life by comparison to here btw.

        • BR

          “I am not a fan of Capitalism – It has served its purpose and is now hindering rather than helping society.”

          You talk of capitalism as if it is a political system. It is not. I actually hate the term “capitalism”; it is a term invented by Karl Marx. Think of it rather as freedom of exchange. Government is not necessary for people to trade and do deals with each other, except to keep public order and enforce the law. Even inthe absence of a government, some trade between people will always take place. If you are not a fan of “capitalism”, then you must be in favour of suppressing it, and the only way to do that is to use the power of the state, just like in communist countries.

          Bill.

          • Polish Pride

            No Bill I am not a fan of Capitalism there is a better option available that is more in line with what people actually want from life.
            There are also options other than supression. Such as the people understanding that there is a better way and deciding to transition too it as they understand that it will be better for them as individuals, better for their families, better for society, better for the environment as it requires less resources to be used than capitalism does.
            I want to take the power from the state and return it to the people where it should be.
            I am sensing a libertarian streak coming through from you. I understand why people favour libertarianism as it offers greater freedom to a point. that point is the bounds of the system. I.e. you can have anything you want by an large your freedoms are unrestricted but anything you want chances are you will have to pay for it. And to pay for it you have to work in the system and earn money just like you do today. For most except the few that become financially independant early enough they are not free from having to work in order to survive and live a normal life and that is not true freedom. In fact you are free so long as you have money. RBE provides you with everything that you can have under libertarianism but also seeks to free you from the system (from having to work as much or possibly at all one day). If you do look into RBE ignore the planning side. It is flawed and didn’t work for communism. For RBE to work and be a stellar system it needs to be reactionary like Capitalism. Its a pity this is on a blog. I would be really interested to have a discussion with someone on libertarianism vs RBE it would be interesting.

          • BR

            If you want to interfere with or prevent people from exercising their freedom of exchange (capitalism), you are going to have to do it by force. How else can you do it?

            Bill.

  • GregM

    People are starting to ask questions, and starting to see this for what it is. Hosking was brilliant this morning, repeatedly playing the clip of Gareth asking “hey Clint, are we pleased?” The fightback begins.

    • Whafe

      Agree GregM, Hosking was fantastic witht he playing of the “hey clint” sound bite… I see the little Gareth is not posting up a storm on Twitter this morning… Must have given him a wake up call

  • johnbronkhorst

    “the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations,” Sound familiar?
    Isn’t this, what this policy effectively does?? Isn’t this what winnie is promising to do if elected?
    Scary as this looks as a statement, it’s even scarier as to where I found it!!!!!!
    It is a direct quote from the 5 tenets, formulated in 1920, of economic policies of…..wait for it….you’re going to love this……….it’s worth the wait……………..the NAZI party of Germany!!!

    • Polish Pride

      the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations, Sound familiar?”
      Isn’t this, what this policy effectively does??
      Can you please point out where Labour, the Greens, or Winston have said this.or how the policy on NZ Power results in “the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations,”

      • LabTested

        In the weekend Winston said his bottom line for supporting any government was the buy back of MRP + Contact. This = nationalization (by the way he said will raid the Cullen fund & private Kiwisaver accounts to do so)

        Labour & Greens have not used those words but they are promising to dictate Price plus investment decisions to the power companies. So how would you describe a situation where a government takes de facto control of your business?

        I think Nationalization comes pretty close

        • Polish Pride

          It is the word “All” I take particular issue with, as in Nationalization of ‘ALL’ Businesses. As to how would I feel about it. It would depend on what they were offering me in return. If it was that I wouldn’t have to work anymore or only half of what I do now. Then I’d be pretty happy. In this case they aren’t so I’d be pretty pissed.

          • johnbronkhorst

            Just wait…allow these morons to do this with power…next is milk?, and any other business that THEY believe is making too high of a profit …repeat…IN THEIR OPINION. It is the regulation of PROFIT that is the problem and the inference damages all business, takes away the confidence to invest, or EMPLOY more staff, or expand in any way!!!!

          • They could they do it with Petrol too.

  • unsol

    I know this is a little out there for right wingers, but perhaps it is us who should be going around getting petitions, protesting (in stages since right wingers tend to be the ones working & bringing in the tax revenue), writing to our local papers etc.

    Playing the game their own way is probably the only way we can get the MSM to pick up this crap & highlight it for all the muppets who don’t think about anything other than what immediately affects them; make no mistake, if these wankers get into government we are all going to feel the financial pain for a very long time.

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