Not one cent, “new evidence” proves nothing

I see David Bain’s supporters and tame media flunkies reckon some allegedly greasy marks on Robin Bain’s hands “prove” Robin Bain pulled the trigger. What was amazing was the coordinated way that David Fisher managed to file a full story complete with photos from Joe Karam and a couple of quotes seconds after the show aired. The show airs at 8:30pm and his first article based on the show he didn’t watch went online at 9:30pm.


He then proceeded to mount as robust a defence as he has for the fat german man. All of that is astonishingly perceptive for a man who just watched a show and managed miraculously to get his first story out just seconds after the show finished and then managed to write multiple articles before the print deadline last night. Wow…just awesome.

I listened to Joe Karam on Leighton Smith’s show this morning and found myself yelling at the radio. The man is disingenuous…he talks about the marks as though they are proof Robin Bain pulled the trigger. He glosses over the magazine that miraculously was standing on its end right beside Robin Bain’s cold dead hand. So…did Robin place the magazine on the ground there…on carpet…then stand up and shoot himself so when he landed his hand would come to rest right beside the magazine? Come on think about it…If the magazine was dropped it is impossible for it to land and remain standing on its side…and the chances Robin Bain placed it there and then shot himself so he landed conveniently next to it are ridiculously small.  

I have fired literally hundreds of thousands of rounds from magazine fed firearms, from SLRs to M16s to SMGs, 9MM pistols and so many versions of rim-fire rifles that I have lost count…and in all my years I have never had the marks on my thumbs that Bain supporters and their tame media flunkies claim prove that David didn’t do it.

This is just more smoke and mirrors from Karam and Bain.

This is what you have to believe for Robin Bain to have been the killer done it like Joe Karam would have us believe. The original list was from David Farrar, I have added the “new evidence”.

  1. It was a lucky guess when David Bain told 111 ambulance officer they are all dead, despite later saying he only saw two bodies
  2. Again a lucky guess when DB told police officer they are all dead
  3. The 25 minute gap between DB finding his family dead and calling 111 is in no way connected with trying to wash clothes and removed blood.
  4. The bruise on David’s head and scratches on his chest and graze on his knee – none of which he could explain, were just a coincidence
  5. The lens from his glasses found in Stephen’s room happened weeks ago and he never noticed OR someone else had borrowed the glasses
  6. The lack of fresh injuries on Robin despite the massive struggle with Stephen is just the product of healthy living
  7. David’s finger prints on the gun are from a previous time
  8. David telling a friend he had premonition something bad was going to happen was a genuine psychic experience
  9. Stephen’s blood on David’s clothing was nothing to do with the struggle – OR someone else borrowed his clothes
  10. The lock and key to the rifle being found in David’s room is not relevant as they were obviously placed there
  11. Robin decided to wash David’s green jersey to remove blood and the fibres from jersey found under Steven’s finger nails
  12. David’s bloody palm print on the washing machine was from him checking the bodies
  13. The Ambulance officer was wrong when he said in his opinion Bain was pretending to have a fit
  14. Robin Bain would logically wear gloves to prevent fingerprints despite it being a murder-suicide
  15. Robin Bain didn’t wear gloves as he loaded the magazine…then put on gloves to kill his family, then took them off without smudging the “magazine marks”.
  16. That Robin Bain would type a message on a computer for David telling him he is the only one who deserves to live, instead of writing a note. A hand written note incidentally would have cleared David.
  17. Also that having just shot his family, and knowing David was due home, that Robin would wait 44 seconds for the computer to boot up to leave a message
  18. Robin would decide David deserved to live, but go out of his way to frame him for murder
  19. Robin Bain placed fibres from Davids jersey under Stephen’s finger nails
  20. Robin would finish shooting his family, remove the magazine, place it on the ground carefully on standing upright on its side, then shoot himself so that when his body fell his hand was right beside the magazine which remained standing on its side.
  21. Robin Bain would shoot himself with a gun in the most awkward way possible?
  22. That Robin Bain changed jerseys after he had killed his family and in particular Stephen Bain, washed the jersey, hung it on the line and then change into a brown jersey before killing himself?
  23. That there is a logical reason that David Bain can not account for the injuries on his face, the bruise or the scraped knee, yet knows he did not have them during his paper run.
  24. That Robin Bain put blood on the inside of David’s duvet and on his light switch
  25. That there is an innocent explanation for why David says he put on washing before he discovered the bodies, yet there is a blood print on the washing machine.
  26. That Laniet was being paranoid when she told friends she was scared of David
  27. That the “family meeting” David called the previous night and insisted everyone attended was not a way to make sure everyone would be at home to kill.
  28. That Robin Bain would wear a hat while shooting himself in the head.
  29. That even though David told a relative he hated his father, his father did not know this and deliberately decided David was the only one who deserved to live
  30. That David either imagined hearing Laniet gurgling or she gurgled 20 minutes after death
  31. That Laniet allegations of incent with Robin was true, as was her claims she had given birth three times by the age of 12 and a half.
  32. That Robin Bain managed to kill four family members without a single trace of his blood, skin, or DNA being left at the scene.
  33. That it is a coincidence that on the morning of the murders Bain took his dog onto a property, ensuring he would be noticed to give him an alibi.
  34. That the magazine found balanced on an edge next to Robin was not placed there by David but fell onto its edge from Robin’s arms.
  35. That a sickly Robin Bain managed to overpower his teenage son who put up a furious fight
  36. That Robin Bain went and got the newspaper from outside, despite planning to shoot himself
  37. That Robin Bain did all of the above without taking a piss.

I love the way Joe Karam and David Bain continue to manufacture outrage and malign a dead man. This is just another episode in trying to manipulate a process through the court of public opinion to garner a result that puts money on David Bain’s pockets.


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  • Pete George

    “I have fired literally hundreds of thousands of rounds from magazine fed
    firearms, from SLRs to M16s to SMGs, 9MM pistols and so many versions
    of rim-fire rifles that I have lost count…and in all my years I have
    never had the marks on my thumbs that Bain supporters and their tame
    media flunkies claim prove that David didn’t do it.”

    I’ve used a range of firearms for over forty years. I own a .22 with a magazine similar to the one at issue here. I had never noticed marks on my thumb like this.

    Last night I tested it – I loaed a bullet, pressed down with my thumb to make sure the bullet was straight and sprung freely. And I then saw on my thumb two parallel marks very similar to those in the Bain item – and in virtually the same place.

    I know someone else who did the same test with the same result.

    So this new evidence is quite feasibly significant in the case.

    • You can get the same result using a Zippo lighter…plus the marks you are comparing them to aren’t the red marks on Robin’s hands…they are the manufactured marks created by Karam’s pals.

      Plus for years Karam and others have claimed Robin Bain wore gloves.

      • Pete George

        As far as I’m aware there is no Zippo lighter involved in this case.

        • richard.b

          David Bain, in the Dinning Room with the Zippo Lighter.
          Sounds like a game of Cluedo to me.

        • kehua

          Everytime I clean our guttering I get these marks, I am not aware of any marks on my hands after shooting my 22 and I have done that 100,000`s times. Bain is deluded about his own innocence.

      • Mr_Blobby

        Takes a big man to consider the possibility that he may be wrong. I saw that as the muck that is found when you give a gun a good clean a mixture of lead and powder. The gun certainly looked like it had never been cleaned and was misfiring.

      • Col

        Cam your not listening, if you did a Zippo you would have the makes from the flint wheel? Just saying, you and I are not experts, but you will get marks in both cases. How do we know the police didn’t clean it off, just saying?

    • unsol

      We did the same test last night & got the same result. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

      I have always wondered why no one investigated the idea that Robin killed his wife & kids & that David came home & then killed him. Of course practically speaking it was probably always a case of Robin vs David for the entire massacre as it would be pretty hard to wrestle a big old gun like that off a crazed man & not get killed yourself.

      • TomTom

        The whole case was a bit of a sham. The coppers didn’t do their job at all.
        The only proven fact is that they fucked up literally everything during the course of the investigation and court case.
        We’ll never know – it was either Robin or David. But I’m inclined to believe it was probably David.

        • Steve

          They did enough to get a conviction…. It only takes one “maybe something” to create reasonable doubt and it took the defense over a decade to find it….

          I’m sure there were things the Cops could have done better…. but then hindsight is always 20/20 isn’t it.

          • TomTom

            You do know that a lot of evidence and testimony was wrongfully excluded from the original court case that could have created doubt for the jury?

  • ben

    It could support the Robin shot the family, David shot Robin after a scuffle (“I shot the prick”) theory

  • Micky

    It might support a theory, but doesn’t prove anything. I suspect Judith Collins wont be moved by this, re compensation.

  • tarkwin

    This is fashion masquerading as a story.

  • unitedtribes

    Interesting concept though. Think Ill go empty a mag out of the old Winchester and report back.

    • unitedtribes

      Just emptied 5 rounds out of the .22. (all landed an inch from the bullseye over 70 meters) reloaded the mag. ended up with identical marks in the same place as the ones photographed on old man Bains. Trouble is they are only indents from the mag and disappeared with 20 minutes. No grease or powder residue at all. Could be different for other guns though. What about the WO army conducted a test themselves I suspect most have a gun or three.

      • Pete George

        I had more indent than residue too. I guess the residue on the magazine will depend on rifle design and bullet type.

        Someone who knows pathology would be able to say if dying would be likely or not to retain the indents due to bloodflow stopping. It’s likely that Robin Bain would have died soon after reloading the magazine, if that’s what he did.

        • unitedtribes

          I used both high and low velocity amo no different. Good point about the indent staying if you were dead.

        • Mr_Blobby

          And the condition of the gun and how clean it is most .22 don’t get cleaned that often.

        • .22 bullets are lubricated…that is the waxy coating on them…it is why you don’t need to clean your barrel quite so often.

          Rimfire ammo is “dirty” when it burns…ifUT fired 5 mags and didn’t get any residue then this is just media supposition on behalf of Joe Karam

          • Mr_Blobby

            Maybe not as often but still cleaned.

      • Photos or it never happened

        • unsol

          After you tough guy: you reckon you’re tight with anyone in the know so get together with Janet et al on camera & do the same test with the Bain firearm. Then we can have a look at your thumbs & assess from there. Exact same gun – what have you got to lose. Make sure you include your hero Collins in the gathering…after all, it was she who decided it was OK to pay a completely independent judge like Binny a whole wad of cash, ensure both sides presented their case & info to him then decided she didn’t like his conclusion so got Fisher on board behind everyone’s backs instead. The whole process became rather dodgy. So she could at least put her credibility out there. I mean what’s the worst that can happen? You get proven wrong?

          • unitedtribes

            You having a bad day unsol? Im not trying to prove a thing and dont have an opinion either way on Bains

          • unsol

            No I’m just being a smart arse – he always posts these kinds of dog whistle posts as if to say he is absolutely right when in actual fact he has no more definite clue than anyone else. This is all simply speculation. The police don’t even know for certain as all the evidence was completely circumstantial….they argue compelling yet clearly it wasn’t.

            There seems to have been a presumption of guilt from the start by all parties involved & by the media yet experts can’t agree on evidence, the PC made it clear that Dunedin police were sloppy & he has been been tried for the 3rd time & now acquitted.

            Yet on online forums a whole bunch of armchair experts who know nothing, who are not lawyers, forensic experts, pathologists or even close to being on par with having the kind of military skills that someone like Robbie Tiffen probably has (deer hunting is hardly the same) claim their views are absolute.

            So I think if these guys think they have all the answers then they should prove. We did the same thing last night and we got marks. Our rifle is apparently similar to the Bain one in terms of age & type.

            Since Cameron has all the connections then surely he can put his money where his mouth is & prove that 3rd degree et al are a bunch of liars.

          • Joe Karan does what he does because of people like you, gullible and thick to boot.

          • unsol

            Is that the best retort you can come up with? Where are your photos tough guy?

            Implying I am gullible & thick – just silly. You know I am more astute & a lot smarter than you. Accept it. Admit you are wrong. You know nothing about firearms. Or at least, not as much as you claim…

            I have yet to offer my opinion on this case – and I wont. It is meaningless. But I will question the blinding faith some of you seem to have in the police with respect to these high profile cases.

            All you have offered is speculation.

          • Peej

            I mean what’s the worst that can happen?
            A group of people who know everything disagreeing and guns being fired. Ummmm, let me think…

          • Wrong again unsol, it was Simon Power who hired Binnie.

          • unsol

            Yes you are correct this time. The review on Collins will tell us whether she acted honourably or not.

        • unitedtribes

          Not after my last attempt to load photos thanks

          • matt headley

            Would love to see them!

  • DangerMice

    To my untrained eye, the marks on Robin’s thumb are much shorter, not parallel and more red.than all the other thumbs. Robin’s thumb is the most “dissimilar” thumb in the group. Hmmm, yeah dunno.

    • Pete George

      If the marks are made when the thumb flesh is compressed the marks can go out of parallel when the thumb is back in it’s normal shape.

      • and the photo of Robins hand was taken hours after his death…indents…no way. This is bullshit and smoke and mirrors

        • Mr_Blobby

          Me thinks you protest to much.

      • Steve

        So why do all the photos from the Karam camp show parallel lines?

        I showed the group to a dozen people round the office and asked them to identify the one set of lines that looked the most different to the others….. Every single person identified Bain’s thumb. When asked why, the consensus was that Bain’s lines looked sharper, more red, less like a ‘smudged line and more like a cut…..
        At best it’s another piece of evidence that suggests it could have been Robin…. against a landslide of evidence that suggests it was David.

    • simongarlick

      30 secs in photoshop and I’ll be able to show you an imprint on Bain’s hand that reads “it was teh molemen”.

  • Rangi

    “Not one cent” ay? What is this love affair you have with bullshit? The Police fucked this up, burned the evidence, lied. The Crown then argued at the high court, lost on appeal, then the privvy council, lost, had Binnie review the case, lost, (completely fucked that situation up & Collins absence on the usual Marcus Lush spot this morning was notable) – and now is presented with compelling evidence. What else does the poor bastard have to do??

    Is it really about compensation? Or salvaging the declining reputation of Judith fucking Collins?

  • Chuck Norris

    I know lawyers who worked on prosecution and before the last trial the successful defence campaign systemically convinced the court much of the evidence was in admissible due to procedural issues by Police. That left virtually nothing to convict him with. The evidence – used in court and not used – is overwhelmingly in favour of David Bain killing his family.
    Joe Karam is as mad as a meat cleaver and is now looking for anything to help get a payout and his money back. Unless someone else is found guilty no payout will come.
    These sorts of people are self obsessed nutters

    • He got loads of coin via legal aid.

      • Col

        Your a bit of a cunt saying that, did you twist your balls when you got out of bed this morning? nothing to do with the money, when you spend 13 years of your life in prison, I do believe these marks, and he should get his pay out. Now get back in your corner.

        • Muffin

          Thankfully your opinion is worth shit.

        • your opinion is worth nothing when it is delivered from the gutter. Marks are just marks and could be anything at all without actually examining them forensically. DBs team dismissed far more damming evidence against their side by just saying ”it proves nothing”….yet suddenly ,some marks examined by lay person from a photographare deemed irrefutable proof of guilt. What rubbish .

          • Col

            Your wrong, you make up what you think is right, you need to listen, and read, may help?

          • Sponge

            In english this time please?

          • unsol

            But they are awfully coincidental wouldn’t you agree?

          • It’s like looking for faces in clouds. If you look you will see them. It doesn’t mean they are there. DB’s team dismissed interpretations of DBs phone call where he allegedly said ‘I shot the prick’ in the same way. Now when it suits… they say this is proof. Its not proof. Its not tested in court or able to be cross examined….or compared to David Bains fingers either. It’s meaningless.

          • Orange

            Yes. And not only that, marks can get on fingers in a number of ways. Considering the magazine looks “planted” next to the hand it would be only natural for the person who planted it there to also have a go and pressing lines into the guys fingers after he was dead to continue the theme of making him look guilty. There is absolutely nothing in the lines themselves that pushes towards one view or the other so the existing evidence stands. 37 points of it so far.

          • unsol

            I think it looks planted too. Question is though – did DB have enough time to do all of this? To be so cunning? And if was to go to so much trouble to place the magazine then why didn’t he pick up his glasses lens that supposedly fell out while he was struggling with this brother…let alone wipe bloodied handprints off the washing machine etc. You’d think those things would be more of a priority when covering your tracks.

          • fozzie2

            When it comes the plant the police already have form …..

          • unsol

            Planting evidence? Yep. And rape, theft, drugs…..such an honourable bunch. Interesting that they are now working with Louise Nicholas re improving how they treat victims etc. Now if that isn’t proof they believe Rickards et al were guilty then I don’t know what is! She may have lost the battle, but she won the war.

          • Orange

            But you’re not thinking like a murderer (and good thing too of course).

  • Unconvinced

    David Bain is guilty and Karam should shut-up and piss off. No compo unless a Court or enquiry finds undoubtedly that someone else did it.
    All this shit Karam is dishing up is nothing short of amateur made for TV ‘Hardy Boys’ type crap evidence. It is meaningless.
    Karam shouldn’t have wasted his money getting a killer out of jail. What a muppet.

  • steve and monique

    Read above 37 points regarding the murder of Bains family,then agree this new evidence gets David off Scott free. I cant,and with the doubt cast by said points,it still puts David in the picture for the murder.

  • johnbronkhorst

    Personally, with no real evidence, (except that the bloody foot prints were SMALLER than David Bain’s feet) I always believed that Robin killed his family but DAVID killed Robin!

    • Col

      Now that could be true?

    • unsol

      Me too. But if that was the case then why not admit it – provocation would easily have been a good defence back then.

  • Donovan Jackson

    …and, significantly, money in Karam’s pockets.

    • unsol

      No. He has lost millions fighting this battle – a battle that he decided to take up of his own accord.

      • Donovan Jackson

        If he wins, its payday in a big way. That there is why he took up the battle.

        • unsol

          Big if & 13 years of personal cost….well you have to admit he is at least very patient!!!

          • Donovan Jackson

            Duly admitted :-).

      • And plenty more back in his pocket via legal aid…plus the book sales, nice earner that is.

        • Bunswalla

          And he admitted to a 50% deal with Bain in prison if he got any compensation. Karam has a LOT invested in this, probably why he’s clutching at straws even now.

      • LesleyNZ

        Didn’t he used to sell life insurance – like a Broker?

        • unsol

          Not that I was aware of & I just checked the super accurate wikipedia (tongue in cheek) & it states Karam had “become wealthy in various business ventures including hamburger bars and country pubs and the country’s first major independent vending machine company”

  • Agent BallSack

    The police in charge did NZ a disservice in this case. Although by all accounts the house was a fucking pigsty, more evidence of a whole range of antisocial behaviours. David did it, there can be no doubt about that – He was acting when he was carried out on a stretcher and thats ALL the evidence you really need to see. Its like looking at Lundy at the funeral the grief was all an act and its obvious. Thats my opinion.

    • peterwn

      Few issues here:

      1. Paramedics disturbed the scene first – their duty was to check for life and take medical action as needed. So there was unavoidable disturbance.

      2. At first sight, it looked like murders then suicide, and the police investigated it on this basis to write a report for a Coroner. Hence they were not as careful as they could or should have been.

      3. At the re-trial the defence scored some serious hits at the ‘quality’ of exhibits eg which order photos were taken. Nowadays a detective can do a quick video of the scene compelete with commentary using a $200 camera. Then he can take pictures which are all date and time tagged.

      Human nature being what it is, investigation quality was only sufficient to meet the needs of most cases at the time. For example, a murder suspect in the 1950’s was wrongly accused when his wife had been taking arsnic for cosmetic reasons amd mucked up doing the dilutions. The investigation of the Crewe murders was not much better. The Bain case was an improvement, but there was still some way to go.

  • Middy

    How can someone who loads haps of bullets, unjam bullets, reload bullets….end up having two perfect little lines? If the defence want to say that the powder is easily transferrable then his thumb should have alot more lines, smudges and be darker.

  • unsol

    I have doubts that those who claim DB is guilty based on what they have been told by jurors or lawyers involved are telling the truth. Jurors & lawyers shouldn’t be succumbing to pillow talk, especially when this case is far from closed

    As for the little list of evidence above – speculation. Unless you are privy to all documents, photos, evidence & arguments put forward by both teams you are only guessing. Passing an opinion.

    My opinion: DB was not guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. Makes more sense for Robin to go on a murdering rampage as anyone in Dunedin who knew of the family knows he was a weird. And a fuckwit. David was weird too. But perception was he was kind. As for the test of innocence – who knows. Perhaps this new information will clear him once & for all.

    In the mean time I would like to see all these experts claiming that the 3rd degree thing was a set-up, a farce or a con to put their money where their mouth is: get together with Janet et al on camera & all do the same test with the Bain firearm. Then we can have a look at your thumbs & assess from there.

    • blairmulholland

      Unsol – there is no case in NZ history that has been more analysed and done to death. What are you disputing of the above list? You think ALL those coincidences are just coincidences? The computer note ALONE makes David’s case stink to high heaven. You are saying a man as untidy as Robin Bain was suddenly ridiculously meticulous in making sure his son was framed for murder, even going so far as to plant evidence and wash clothing before offing himself?

      And yet you see a couple of gardening scratches on a thumb and go AHA! Unbelievable.

      • unsol

        The list – here’s one error: contrary to this list, When Bain made the 111 call he said his father was dead. When the police arrived 20 minutes later they found him in his bedroom crying they were all dead. I can list more, but why bother? You are not going to change your mind any more than I will mine.

        “You are saying a man as untidy as Robin Bain was suddenly ridiculously meticulous in making sure his son was framed for murder, even going so far as to plant evidence and wash clothing before offing himself”

        I have said nothing of the sort. I have not offered why I believe he was not guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. And I am not going to – other than to say I was familiar with the family.

        It is stupid for anyone to debate this issue on a blog. No one but those directly involved had access to ALL the information. All we can do is, based on what has been made public, form our own opinions; for every so-called piece of CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence against David there is 1 that states to the contrary or points the finger at Robin.

        The experts will debate over what these marks are & unless everyone who dispute the theory put forward last night is prepared to go on camera & load the Bain gun then I cant see how your objections can be any more credible than the TV3 team

        But if they were “gardening scratches” then why is it the pathologist photographed every other bruise, mark & scratch on Robin’s hand but not these? Seems you have just joined a swarm of opinion without actually knowing much.

        • Justsayn

          Sorry if this debate is a bit close to home for you.

          I agree – it is unlikely that anyone will change their mind based on what they read here, but it is David and his team that have launched a PR offensive in search of compo money. That is partly my money they want so I care about what happens.

          • unsol

            As do I – I’m not personally affected by this case, I was just familiar with the family….so like everyone, I have my own views :-)

        • cruiseyman

          I moved to Dunedin soon after the murders and become friends with someone who had been close friends with one of the daughters (I can’t remember which one now) and she always thought, due to knowing personal details about the family and certain circumstances at the time of the murders that it was Robin.

          • unsol

            Interesting. Then you would know that Robin was not always known to be that pleasant.

            What I find to be the biggest miscarriage of justice is the fact that the home was burned down & further that the extended family basically disowned David from the start – taking anything & everything from the estate & leaving him nothing in terms of momentos or anything.

            If he is innocent I would imagine that would be the worst punishment of all.

          • cruiseyman

            Yes, if looking at motives then Robin is your guy. And also the coincidence of them all staying at the house that night, which from what I heard was very unusual, raises some questions.

          • unsol

            Yes that was unusual.

          • Bunswalla

            Erm, Robin had zero motive. David had plenty, and previous form for setting up the exact scenario he perpetrated when he murdered all his family some years later.

          • cruiseyman

            Personal details shared with me by someone who was meant to have been having lunch with one of the daughters the day that they were killed suggested he did have motives. Of course they are not proven as fact but I can’t imagine your ‘zero motive’ can be proven as fact either. What is a fact though is that I had this conversation with a person associated with the family and this was their perception.

          • Bunswalla

            I once met a guy in a bar who used to walk his dog on the same park as the one a bird pooped on that was being chased by a cat that had at one time (I can’t be certain of when) cut across the Bain residence in Every Street, and he was pretty sure David did it.

        • Bunswalla

          Unsol – you have that arse about face. In the 111 call David said they’re all dead – four times in fact:

          David- They’re all dead.

          Ambulance officer- What’s the matter?

          David- They’re all dead’ I came home and they’re all dead.

          Ambulance officer- Where abouts are you?

          David- Every street 65 Every street, they’re all dead.

          Ambulance officer- Who’s all dead?

          David-My family’ they’re all dead’ hurry up!

          i can provide you the full transcript if you like. For what it’s worth, i find the marks on Robin’s thumb to be a herring rouge – they are clearly not parallel or even vaguely similar.

      • Col

        Now if you understand about the marks, in no way are they cuts, they said that, and those who do use these weapons understand this, so you should get it right, before you start saying they are scratches, if they were, they would have noted these when they were checking the body, they never did, so where did they go. Go read a Noddy book.

      • matt headley

        Forensic testing on sockprints done with a 270mm size foot –
        the same size as his father Robin Bain’s – after being soaked
        in animal blood and walking on carpet, was 282mm when tested
        with luminol, which indicates the presence of blood.

        When doing tests with a 298mm foot – David Bain’s was 300mm –
        the average size was 297mm, forensic scientist Kevan Walsh
        told the trial.

        The bloody footprints found in the Bain house in Every
        Street, Dunedin, were measured at 280mm.

        Explain that.

        • blairmulholland

          Ah, the sock print, that hoary old chestnut dragged out when the vast tide of all other evidence points to their man. That one piece of evidence that might suggest Robin instead of David. Except, not really. The footprints were not complete heel to toe and therefore suggest a larger foot than Robin’s.

          • matt headley

            If DB was so cunning as to write a computer message blaming his father in an attempt to frame him, why would he then admit to hearing gurgling by Laniet at trial and implicate himself? Doesn’t make any sense.

          • blairmulholland

            It makes perfect sense only if he did in fact kill his family.

  • peterwn

    The new ‘evidence should be considered in the light of: – Court of Appeal report on evidence.
    There is still the small matter that it is not easy going round and shooting people on a very full bladder. Surely Robin Bain would have gone to the toilet first. I have some new ‘evidence’ – Ii his bladder was that full then surely given the stress and adreniln rush of shooting people he would have wet his pants. If there is one thing to get the ‘Bain not guilty’ brigade all worked up, it is the state of Robin’s bladder.

    • redeye

      ‘Very full’? He had 400ml of urine in his bladder when he died. According to what I read “It is not uncommon for a man of Robin’s age to carry 3.5 litres to four litres of urine”.

      • Justsayn

        Difficult to believe that, can you cite the source.

        • redeye

          I hope you are not calling me a liar.

          That he only had 400 ml? Plenty of press reports – check the last para of this

          The bit about a man of Robins age was a quote from the defences urologist. Plenty of links if you can use google.

          • Justsayn

            No no, don’t doubt you but I very much doubt the person who said 3.5 to 4 liters of urine is not uncommon.

            Thanks for the link, but it does not have the 3.5 to 4 statement in it (rather it seems to support the argument that 400ml is a usual overnight collection).

          • redeye

            I must agree 4 litres is probably a stretch.

            This seems a reliable link and it suggests
            “A healthy bladder can hold one and a half to two cups (300-400mls) of urine during the day and about four cups (800mls) at night.”

            Older men do can carry more so it would support my initial point the ‘Very Full’ is hyperbole.

          • Justsayn

            Agree “very full” might be an exaggeration, but in context it might not.

            It might be right to say “very full” in the context of someone who gets up and without going to the toilet then: goes and get the paper, decides to killl his family and himself, finds the gun lock, gets the ammo, kills them all, gets changed and puts the clothes in the washer, turns on the computer, waits for it to start up, types the note, and then kills himself. (I might have missed some steps or added some)

            The point is that while it may not be “very full” (I’m no expert but lets assume your website is right) for someone who just woke up, it might be very full for someone who woke up some time ago and has been quite active since.

          • unsol

            Which means this particular ‘evidence’ is very circumstantial at best – as stated above it would be like trying to measuring labour pain… varies depending on the person as would bladders vs the need to go. Not to mention adrenalin etc running through your veins which perhaps overtakes other sensory glands/brain signals

          • unsol

            I read just did a quick google & found “Although the urinary bladder may hold as much as 600 ml of urine, the desire to urinate is usually experienced when it contains about 150 ml” – John Hole

            Given that older people tend to have weaker bladders this would mean (I assume) that he would have been busting to go with less than 150ml in his bladder.

            But then crazy people are not normal are they? When you have adrenalin etc running through your veins perhaps those hormones overtake any other sensory glands/brain signals? Who knows but it is very circumstantial – that to me is like measuring labour pain. Varies depending on the person as would bladders.

          • Bunswalla

            Disagree, as an older man. We tend to need to go to the toilet more often as we age, especially when it’s cold. The prostate tends not to get stronger with age! The morning that David murdered his family was the coldest of the year.

      • snowz

        3.5 litres. ? Holy moly. Ask anyone who has had a pelvic ultrasound how immensely uncomfortable it is to hold 1 litre never mind your propsed 3.5 litres. Thats catherisation volumes. Measure your morning void. Guessing it will be similar to 400mls.

      • Dumrse

        I regularly stretch my bladder to bursting and there is absolutely no way it’s going to hold 3.5 to 4 litres of filtered DB products. Certainly not over night and into the early hours. That said, I once knew a Brit Squaddie that didn’t have piss despite 4 jugs.

      • Refn8tor

        That’s rubbish. As someone who needs to self catheterise several times daily, I can tell you now that anything near a litre is uncomfortable with the distinct pissibolity of leakage. 400 ml would be triggering the urge to piss. 3 to 4 litres would be agony.

  • Rangi

    …never took you lot for conspiracy theorists – what happened to my last comment BTW?

    • RightOfGenghis

      You have no patience, grow up…

  • Anna

    Surely it is feasible that David Bane may have wiped the gun magazine marks on Robyn’s finger & thumb himself? Particularly if they are so easily transferred. Of course he would have had to know this happens to your hands when loading this gun.

    • Mr_Blobby

      Why not use it earlier in the defense case.

      • That is the real issue…Bains lawyers and Karam were completely tits at their job…in not bringing this up.

        • Mr_Blobby

          Now I get it, all part of a long term plan.

          Plant evidence.
          Kill Family.

          Get convicted.
          Get acquitted.
          Turned down for compensation.
          Bring planted evidence to light.

          Why did I not think of his before.

          • unsol

            That’s the thing. DB is actually quite smart. If he is 100% guilty then it would have to be premeditated so surely he would have been smart enough to cover his tracks a little better so that he didn’t get caught? At least when it comes to making sure your lens isnt left behind, wiping prints etc

            And have a think about the guy who killed his ex girlfriend then chopped her up & buried her in underneath a building’s foundations. He wasnt a natural psychopath – apparently quite decent then when nuts. So his actions started screwing with his mind. He would never have been able to continue denying it/declaring his innocence. It takes a special kind of psycho to do that – like Lundy.

            I don’t think DB was/is a psychopath either. Weird yes not crazy. So you would think that the trauma of trying to cover up, hide * deny his actions for all these years would make him crazy. Surely he would have shown signs of breaking down now that he is out in the community again? Surely he would have pulled a Weatherston by now?

          • Bunswalla

            You’re assuming it’s possible to murder your entire family and be sane at the same time – I doubt it. I believe David murdered his family and has managed to convince himself he couldn’t possibly have done it. He’s confused an otherwise reasonably intelligent person in Joe Karam too, but that doesn’t prove anything.

    • Col

      But they were not there when they checked the body, police stuffed it up by not using bags over the hands, and it was some guy who found it who had nothing to do with the case? Did the police wipe his thumb?

    • redeye

      Feasible? It’s also feasible that he would wait in jail for 13 years before he highlighted it. By highly unlikely.

  • Justsayn

    A bit I’ve never understood about this case is why someone who, for some unknown and unstated reason, thought David alone should be spared the fate of the rest of his family then went to extraordinary lengths to implicate David as the killer

    If Robin did the killing but wanted to set up David for the blame, he could have not have done a much better job of it.

    • redeye

      Could be that David was the only one capable of fighting Robin off?

      • Justsayn

        then kill him first… no, it doesn’t make sense

        • redeye

          Making sense of what a mentally unstable man would do is the first problem with the anti-David side of the argument.

          • Justsayn

            both sides perhaps

          • redeye

            Sure. But after 13 years in jail has there been any evidence presented that David was in fact mentally unstable?

          • Justsayn

            Yes, at both trials.

          • redeye

            Can you find me a link cause I’ve never read that.

          • Justsayn

            No sorry, I can’t.

            I had in mind the stuff about “black hands” etc so if you google that and his name I’m sure you’ll get more hits than Rod Stewart.

            I’m not saying that Robin was “all there” either, they both seem a bit challenged (the apple doesn’t seem to have fallen too far from that tree).

          • redeye

            The “Black Hands” stuff is evidence given by his Uncle.

            What I am looking for is medical evidence that he was or is in some way mentally unstable. I could, at a stretch, accept that someone could have completely flipped and killed their entire family but the prosecutions case is that it was premeditated.

            The premeditation would imply a level of psychopathy that doesn’t seem to have ever been found. Even after presumably intensive searching by jail psychiatrists.

          • redeye

            Can I just add this from the ODT;-

            “In Trial by Ambush Karam sums up, in part, like this:

            None of the professionals found any [psychological] disorder
            in David.

            His normality in this regard is borne out in daily life.

            Putting it bluntly, the evidence both from the trial and the hundreds of others with whom he worked in the prison, including prison staff, and those with whom he has worked and socialised both before June 1994 and since he got out of prison is quite to the contrary.

            He is described as a very empathetic person, caring of the needs of others, a law-abiding citizen, cognisant and aware of the behaviour expected in any situation.

            Does he have idiosyncrasies? Of course he does, as we all do.

            But there is absolutely no doubt that he has no mental disorder or clinical mental illness.

            The Crown case that David killed four people and then took his dog on a paper round before coming home to kill his father and then leave a false trail, along with the other planning and deception they say is involved, is totally incompatible with the person David was and is.

            On the other hand, Robin, as we have seen from the empirical data, and putting it in plain language, is a dead ringer for the profile of a despairing-type perpetrator of familicide.

            A proud man who sees himself as the head of the family, who has been rejected by his wife.

            A man who is becoming angry and frustrated at not finding the standard of employment he feels he deserves.

            A man suffering shame and ignominy from the lips of his own daughter; true or false as her stories may have been, the shame would be the same.

            A man who applied for stress leave not long before the tragedy.

            A man tidying up loose ends.

            A man said by his peers to have lost the ability to act rationally.

            A man who for years had been living in embarrassing conditions in a derelict van in a paddock with no ablution facilities.

            A man who according to his very loyal brother was going back home to “face up to it all again”, or words to that effect.

            A man who had been a hunter and user of firearms all his life.

            A man who had two books on his bedside table, each of which involved death as their main theme and the one he appeared to be reading entitled Death Comes as the End.

            A man who had a pile of bullet shells fired by the murder weapon on his dresser.

            A man who was a very experienced school teacher who sent out a school newsletter just days before the tragedy which included three stories written by his pupils about family slayings and prefaced them with the warning that they may disturb.

            A man with a bruise and abrasion on his right fist that had been sustained in the hours before his death.

            A man whose wife, 15 years earlier, told her close friend and confidant that she was extremely concerned about “Robin’s depression”.

            A man who ultimately succumbed to the combination of factors that causes some men to take the ultimate revenge on life in the most inexplicable manner, by destroying his life and the lives of those he loves in an act of what we call familicide.

          • Justsayn

            It is just a series of quotes from Karam’s book.

            I’m sure Karam put a lot of work into the book but it is the least independent source of information (let alone opinions like the above) that I think it would be possible to find outside asking David himself!

            Mr Karam seems to have gotten too involved in this to ever take his opinion as more than that of an advocate.

          • redeye

            No doubt it is coming from the most biased source but I hoped you would have addressed the message.

            Are any of these points incorrect?

          • Justsayn

            I don’t know, but they seem like the sweeping statements of opinion…

            Take the first… “A proud man who sees himself as the head of the family, who has been rejected by his wife”. Says who? Doesn’t seem that proud to me (still living in a caravan at the family home) or that rejected by his wife (still living in a caravan at the family home).

            Or the second… “A man who is becoming angry and frustrated at not finding the standard of employment he feels he deserves”. Says who?

            You haven’t touched my primary point… why did he spare David and then set him up. If the best you have it that he wasn’t behaving rationally, then sorry that doesn’t get there for me because he seems to have gone to extraordinary lengths to set David up for the crime. The best explanation I can think of is that he didn’t intend to spare David at all… he meant to set him up.

          • redeye

            No the best I could come up with was that he saw David as a potential obstacle because of his age and size. You must concede that is a possibility. The killer did seem to have a lot of trouble subduing the younger brother so the older was surely going to be more trouble.

            But to be clear I don’t really have a strong opinion and have never before seriously engaged in debate about his guilt or innocence. I’d rather be discussing the downfall of the Australian Labour party.

            The issues I’m debating with you are simply the issues I have trouble understanding. To think a man who has shown no signs of any mental instability could plan and kill his entire family is a bit distressing don’t you think?

          • Justsayn

            Yes, but we all too often hear the “OMG I cannot believe he did that” when really we mean OMG I cannot believe anyone could do that.

            “Sane” people kill – some in the name of love, some in the name of hate, jealousy, fear, religion, nationalism – we are a horrible beast and that is distressing.

          • unsol

            Yep – when push comes to shove most people will trample on their fellow man to save their own skin.

          • redeye

            But do sane people kill without a motive?

          • Bunswalla

            You’re joking, surely? You think Robin was crazy enough to kill his family and then frame David in a very cryptic way, and somehow that would be better than just shooting him?

          • Bunswalla

            Read “The Mask of Sanity” for plenty of evidence David was quite capable of killing his entire family.

            Plus Exhibit A – the jerseys! bat-shit crazy to even go out in public looking like that.

          • Justsayn

            And the Ambulance officers that attended on the day…


  • thor42

    I’m not convinced at all by the so-called “new evidence”.
    To quote Blackadder, the funny-jersied one is “as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.”

  • Andy

    To me, the marks on Robin’s fingers don’t look the same as the marks in the other photos in the panel, and they’re in a different position. In the only example where they come close to the orientation shown on Robin’s fingerst (image 6967), you can clearly see two blue or purple marks (probably ballpoint pen), which indicates to me that they marked the position they wanted the lines to appear in then used that to try to replicate the placement. Hardly good science.
    And the mark on Robin’s forefinger doesn’t seem to me to be in a natural position for reloading, but then I’m not a gun owner. Perhaps some of the gun users who posted here can say if they can easily replicate the position of the mark on Robin’s forefinger.
    Anyway, if you accept that the note on the computer was faked and the magazine placed on edge, is it that much harder to accept that the killer could have wrapped Robin’s hand around the magazine or pushed the magazine onto his hand?

    • Tamati

      I had a go at this with the 22mag and rifle this morning. My natural loading action with the right thumb did produce a parallel indention that tracked down the thumb not across it as shown in the Herald. No marks were left on my fore finger. If you loaded more than one round into the mag, then further lines were left. Later I managed to get some residue lines as shown in the TV item but these were wiped off as soon as I picked the the rifle up to replicate shooting my self in the head…( which I couldn’t do without taking the silencer off) ..
      Sorry to say that this new “evidence” doesn’t stack up in by book.

  • Bob

    Robin gets paper, turns on computer, doesn’t know of other killings. David comes in and misfires. Not knowing of the other killings Father (in slightly arrogant fatherly way) “come on, if you want to kill me have another go etc “Conversation” insues in which David puts down gun. Robin reloads mag, hands gun to David and kneels down “come on, if you’re going to do it, do it” (asuming David wouldn’t do it….as you would)….bang. David opportunistically types note…maybe… more likely to me than ‘Robin did it’. I never thought the prosucution had the events in the sitting room quite right.
    (from Dunners, same age as David)

    • unsol

      Interesting….but would the magazine drop & land like it did? or did David place it? And do you think David had enough time to do the paper round & doing everything else (washed his clothes, place the magazine etc)?

      • Fred

        Maybe the cop picked it up and put it back down. After all a great deal was stuffed up by the keystone cops.

  • JimmyMatamata

    If the marks on Robin Bains finger are marks from loading a magazine why are his fingerprints not all over the same magazine? The show last night conviently skipped over this.

    • Rodger T

      Exactly, and every shell casing and unfired round in the magazine would have his fingerprints on them. That would be proof that he loaded the magazine, at the very least.

  • Col

    Now the Police Fucked it all up, No bags on hands, now if they did that it may have been seen when they were checking Robins body.
    The old story police keep fucking everything up.
    Now we have this photo, which I believe will show that David will get his pay out and so he should, just for the fact the Police screwed it up.
    Yes you do get marks when using this type of gun.
    Just an other point and I m not sure if they can in this case, put did they check Robins and David hands for gunpowder or there clothing?

  • Debbie2

    Who the heck is David Giles anyway? Come on Whale, he is not some independent bystander who just happened to ‘stumble across’ the marks shown in the photo. Whale, get your super-snoop on…

    • Pete George

      Giles says that he was actively discussing the Bain case on Kiwiblog, which had some very long threads on it.

      He said he followed a link someone put on there, that link showed the hand photo and he immediately recognised the thumb marks. As he knew DB and Karam would be interested he went to them about it.

      Karam probably orchestrated 3rd Degree and Fisher at the Herald (who owes me an aoplogy for some nasty abuse on Twitter on Sunday).

      • He won’t apologies, he never does, he’s a decent journalist, trained and skilled you see.

  • any gun powder residue occurring during the murders would have been rubbed off when RB cleaned up and changed his clothes as is alleged by the defense. And there after… powder marks from the act of alleged suicide wouldn’t have occurred as shown in the documentary because of the difficult angle required to make the final shot to the left temple. The marks are more likely just cracks in the dry fingers and would never stand up in court as evidence of any kind…let alone a ‘slam dunk’ of proof…as has been dubiously implied by DB’s council.

    • unsol

      And you say this based on what? Have you the expertise to counter people like Robbie Tiffen or Peter Durrant? Genuine question – your comment implies you are stating fact so I would love to know how you can be so definite given you havent access to the DB files.

      • ‘based’ on the trial and the way DB’s council argued their case. Which was to cleverly dismiss Scientific evidence against David Bain by creating doubt. Science never claims to know anything as fact and simply states the ‘best fit model’ to explain the workings of nature . DB’s team exploited this fact to the point that any person could have been acquitted with the uncertain clearly bias jury. The gun smith didn’t appear to test how marks would be left when the rifle was fired into the left temple by a right handed man. That would have been the only residue if any…as RB had supposedly cleaned up before the suicide.

    • Tamati

      I forgot to mention in my above post that I measured the distance between the two parallel indentations on my thumb as between 6mm – 8mm. The TV item had the measurement between the two lines on Robin Bain’s thumb at 17.5mm and then showed the guns smith measuring the magazine width and getting the same figure. When I measured the distance between the magazine rails that cause the indentations it was 7 -8mm. I am thinking that a proper forensic examination of the actual magazines from the Bain rifle is going to create some red faces.

      • Ron

        Tamati, the measurement was off a photograph, not to scale.

  • steve and monique

    Ok everyone has an opinion. This new evidence shows a couple of lines on fathers thumb,and suddenly it clears David of all wrongs. Sorry,but there is a faint chance David is guilty. Should we compensate for a faint chance,no. Should we free a man based on this information ,yes. This has been done in David’s case. If the dead could speak,then maybe we would have a definitive answer as to who was to blame. Otherwise right or wrong,all that has been done, has been done. Sorry David if you are innocent,but doubts still exist,so freedom is your compensation.

  • Monique Angel

    That whole, “taking a piss thing can be easily discounted. If you ignore your bladder , (like say when you’re occupied by committing murder and and it fills up over 700ml), it kinks over at the neck and then you can’t take a piss if you try. Just like a hose.
    You have to be catheterized to get the urine out. There is a point that the bladder expands to where instead of collapsing or over flowing it effectively seals off. some drugs like Demerol and fentanyl suppress the urge to pee until the bladder stops operating.

  • LesleyNZ

    Ok all you armchair detectives. When you have read all the forensic and court evidence from all the trials you can make informed comment. Documentary maker Bryan Bruce did. Maybe it is timely for TVNZ to rescreen his documentary on David Bain and who did it. The reason why David Bain was found “Not Guilty” was because HEARSAY evidence was regarded and accepted to be the truth. Other evidence was disallowed. The programme last night conveniently did not state that Robin Bain had been fixing up guttering on his house and gardening the day before. Why did Melanie Reid not want the audience to know this? How many of you have gardened and fixed up guttering and injured your hands and fingers? Such a staged set up as Cameron has said – with David Fisher immediately publishing a story. Then listening to Michael Reid on NewstalkZB was like listening to someone auditioning for a movie part. he should win an Oscar. Leighton Smith was far too soft on Joe Karam. If someone can be persuaded to change their mind about who killed the Bain family by last night’s stage show – then we have no need for forensic evidence to be the most important factor to convict someone. Hearsay and interpretation and a layman’s opinion appears to be what is more important now. What Joe Karam and Michael Reid want is enough public outcry in their favour to force the arm of govt to pay compensation to David Bain. Certainly a lot of you are gullible.

    • unsol

      Lesley the staunch defender of the NZ police. Guess you haven’t heard that they asked Louise Nicholas to work with them to improve their image…you know, so NZers don’t assume they are all a bunch of dodgy, thieving, druggy rapists who care more about convictions than justice.

      And yes I’m winding you up a little.

      The only armchair experts on here are those who are saying he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. And that includes you. Bryan Bruce gave an opinion based on the information he had access to. Likewise with Justice Binny & experts on both sides.

      Gutters – have you got the pathologist’s photos that show RB had abrasions on his thumb & forefinger? And perhaps you could join Cameron & do a live test on loading the Bain rifle & see if any magazine residue makes the same marks. After all, that is only fair since you claim to know the facts….

      • LesleyNZ

        I will defend Robin Bain’s name. As for Louise Nicholas – oh yes but don’t think we heard the whole story about her. I think she has been elevated a tad too high. Ask Bryan Bruce. He spent many months going through each piece of evidence (witness and forensic) and testimony presented at the trials. One News screened Robin Bain’s thumb print tonight. Wonder why Melanie Reid didn’t screen it in her programme campaigning for David Bain. I wonder how Robin Bain managed to wipe his prints off the gun after he died – leaving Stephen and David Bain’s identifiable prints.
        “Police have today conducted a preliminary examination of fingerprints taken from Robin Bain after his death,” he said.
        “These prints show an absence of fingerprint markings in the same place on his right thumb as the dark marks appearing in the photograph.
        “Our fingerprint experts advise that this is consistent with someone sustaining cuts or damage to the fingers prior to prints being taken, which would then affect the print image.”

        • unsol

          “I will defend Robin Bain’s name”

          Why? Did you know him?

          Thumb print – yes, we’ve all seen that. But can you explain how the imperfections don’t come close to even slightly matching the lines we can see in the photos? Are you familiar with how finger prints are taken? Do you know what part of the thumb is printed & where the marks would show up?

          And how can a supposedly methodical pathologist have missed these marks considering they are so easily seen? He would have gone over RB’s very meticulously – his reputation preceded him.

          • LesleyNZ

            No – but others I know met him 3 weeks before he was murdered. I believe the police and fingerprint experts will explain the patterning. Apart from not mentioning the gardening and the fixing of the gutter the day before, I am surprised that Melanie Reid did not bother to check out the thumbprint to rule out injury and scarring. Sensational media manipulation and the public believe it.

          • Bunswalla

            The marks are clearly not even parallel. Not even close. Scraping the bottom of the barrel now, Karam.

  • RightOfGenghis

    I’ve always believed there were two shooters and this fits my theory. If I hated my old man and came home to find he’d shot the whanau, I’d wrestle the gun off him and pop him with it…

    • unsol

      Me too. I have always been certain that Robin killed the others, but was too arrogant & without empathy or remorse to kill himself.

      But of DB finished him off then why not admit it? Provocation would have been a sound defence in 1995.

      Conversely how can someone who has adjusted to life outside prison without incident continue to hide his mass murdering tendencies? Surely he would have come unstuck by now? Psychos can be charming, but they tend to always be narcissistic & never perceived as kind. Yet people who knew & know DB see him as kind.

    • rain33

      This is simply not believable. If David had come home to find his family dead, and got into a tussle with his father over the gun and shot him in the process…then this is a complete non-event. Self defence…plain and simple, no case to answer. if the father wanted to kill the entire family, he would have done it in the dark of night while they were all asleep.

  • LesleyNZ

    Oh dear One News server has overloaded on the Robin Bain page story

  • LesleyNZ

    So – Kurt Bayer has posted a story in the NZ Herald – not David Fisher…..hmmmmmm…. bit of competition? Seems that forensic evidence tells the truth.
    Bain evidence: Police respond –

    Think David Bain Defence team and Melanie Reid might have jumped the gun to a not so satisfactory theory last night. When you think about it – wouldn’t an experienced journalist check out Robin Bain’s thumb print before drumming up a gun powder theory? Don’t think she will get the journalist of the year prize now. Hope Mike Hosking has a rethink to – after his stance on NewstalkZB this morning and his fully charged and dramatic interview with Michael Reed.
    Wonder what next week’s 3 Degree rating will be. They could take on the Lundy case I guess.

  • LesleyNZ

    So hours later after the first comment and we have all had our say – and as they say – each fingerprint and thumbprint is unique.

    Bain evidence: Police respond –

  • Interested

    So the marks on his thumb didn’t survive between the house and the morgue but they were able to stay on his thumb during a battle with his last victim Stephen? There were 17 bullets used to kill the family the gun magazines held 15 so he would have had to re-load before he fought with Stephen but they didn’t rub off during that, I don’t think so.

  • Kent Parker

    Make sure you sign the petition. NO COMPENSATION FOR DAVID BAIN:

    • Bunswalla

      Love your work Kent. Hope the defamation case comes to nothing. Kia kaha!

  • John

    The Assistant Police Commissioner on Campbell Live tried to claim the marks were cuts, as seen in the detail of Robin Bain’s finger print.

    Any idiot could see that the mark on the finger print was not only in a different place on the thumb, but was also at 90 degrees.

    Equally silly is the police claim again that Robin cannot have been the shooter because his prints were not on the gun, when they already know that in 90% of cases, they don’t get fingerprints from a gun (as experts testified at trial)

    “Firearms are perhaps among the most difficult objects to yield good
    latent fingerprints. According to Clemens, technicians will typically
    get prints on only about ten percent of the guns that are inspected.”


    • LesleyNZ

      He had been gardening and fixing guttering the day before – look at his fingernails. He has typical Kiwi “handyman” hands.

    • LesleyNZ

      …and you are an expert at reading fingerprints?

      • Bunswalla

        No, he’s a cock.

      • John

        You’d have to be pretty stupid to think that the two parallel marks on one part of the thumb would leave a single mark on a different part of the thumb, and magically turn 90 degrees.

        • LesleyNZ

          Not what I saw. I could see the lines. Of course there are different angles. Not that stupid!

          • John

            The fingerprint has a line along the thumb near the middle. The photos has two lines across the thumb away from the middle.

            If you’re not stupid, can you please explain how the lines miraculously changed by 90 degrees?

            And I suppose it’s another miracle that he just happened to have two cuts, exactly the width of a .22 magazine apart, that were parallel, exactly on the part of his hand that you use to load bullets, right beside the magazine, that had just come out of his hand.

            I could cut my hands on work every weekend for a year and be highly unlikely to have two cuts that were 7mm apart, that were parallel, on exactly the part of my hand I’d use to load a .22 mag.

  • GregM

    Been watching this all day, here’s what I think. Robin had been repairing the roof and gardening in the days prior. Ever tightened up a loose bolt on the manky old mower handle with your fingers ? leaves scratches as pictured. look closely, there is swelling around the scratches which also appear on the fingerprints taken post mortem.
    Powder residue my arse, DB is as guilty as ever.

  • pukakidon

    Read the evidence- Guilty !!! this is a bunch of bushtit

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  • Alok Lim

    Not having followed the original case Cam your article regarding the points put forward by David Farrar clearly point to Db not Rb. The marks on Rb are not black but red so not from bullet residue. One has to go over all the points above including the marks before swaying their opinion. There are overwhelming factors pointing to DBs guilt

  • Arran Hunt

    The NZ Herald once again showed that trained journalists can be shite.

    To quote them “The police response followed claims by experts on TV3’s 3rd Degree show that parallel markings on Robin Bain’s thumb were consistent with him firing a gun that morning. The marks – not noticed in the 19 years since the murder – matched those made by gunpowder residue when loading the magazine of a rifle shortly after it had been fired.”

    I didn’t watch the show but I’m guessing the show was saying that Robin Bain loaded bullets in to the magazine. The NZHerald now believes that the lines were “consistent with him firing a gun that morning.” That is a huge jump. if they are caused by the magazine, that doesn’t mean he fired a gun, nor does it mean he fired a gun that morning.

    • LesleyNZ

      Yes and how “expert” do you have to be an expert? One who sits in an armchair or loves hunting with a gun?

      • Arran Hunt

        There are legal precedents as to how the court determines if someone is an expert. I can’t remember what they are, but I don’t doubt that the guy is qualified enough to be an expert. However the NZHerald takes it several steps too far.