Saturday General Debate

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  • johnbronkhorst

    Got to admit, they have a good sense of humour!
    But the atheists could get the letters and it would equally apply.
    “How sad when the religious die. All dressed up and no place to go”
    All a question of interpretation and belief.
    The religious should stick to the faith argument, as it cannot be defeated.

    • Christian author and speaker Tony Campolo summed it up nicely. He talked about a debate he had with a fellow academic (an atheist) about God and said to the guy – OK; let’s agree to disagree. If I’m wrong, when I die, and there’s no God, no heaven and no hell, I won’t know any different. Ont the other hand, when you die, and there is a God you don’t believe in, a heaven and a hell…”

      • Kimbo

        The argument is known as ‘Pascal’s Wager’, named after the 17th century French polymath Blaise Pascal, who first proposed it:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

        • Cheers for that Kimbo.

          • Kimbo

            Had to help my wife’s daughter do a 1st year philosophy essay on it recently. “Is Pascal’s wager valid, and give a reason to support your argument”.

          • johnbronkhorst

            Pascal’s wager assumes you are by default trying to prove god exists, via a reverse psychology, and therefore he doesn’t….(for YOU). In order for god to exist (for you[as there is no other way he can exist]) YOU must have faith therefore no proof exists.
            An atheist arguing the existence of god…..therefore he doesn’t exist……….TO ME!!!!!
            Again….faith…….personal faith is the only key to the belief in god.

          • Kimbo

            Yeah, while you argument has merit, I don’t think it would have passed in the philosophy essay in question, because the assumption is that philosophical reasoning is a tool to be used to settle ultimate objective issues (like the existence of God), rather than subjective issues of personal faith.

            I’m not making the rules the lecturer set, and the tutors advised – just reporting them :)

          • Hazards001

            Never mind all that gobbleygook..the real question that needs answered is the egg chicken thing!…oh and the immovable force unstoppable object collision. Archimedes really was a devious bastard.

          • GregM

            Oh that’s easy!
            Q: What came first, the chicken or the egg?
            A: The rooster.

          • Hazards001

            bwaaaaaaaaaah hahahhahaha…made my night!

          • Lopsy

            He was actually quite a clever bastard ahead of his time.

          • Bunswalla

            You were quite happy to believe it was the brilliant insights of some over-achieving god-botherer, until you were schooled that he was just plagiarising, as well as perpetuating an interesting proposition albeit an enormous canard.

            The vain, capricious deity/magicflyinginvisibleguyinthesky that manages to listen to 7 billion people, between them beseeching him every nano-second of the day, 365 days of the year, won’t let you get away with just saying “OK, I believe in you; now where’s my reward?”

            You’re not allowed to fake anything, and he’ll know if you’re trying to fake it. Basically every person on the planet acts in their own best interests in every respect. Holy rollers are just so stupid they ignore the overwhelming unlikelihood that things are nothing like what they imagine.

  • Muffin

    The retort that comes to mind is a quote from ‘hot shots’
    “What are you reading”
    “Great expectations”
    “How is it”
    ” it’s not all I hoped for”

  • Ronnie Chow

    Try being a mind without a body . Very frustrating . Where in the bible does it say you get a new body ? . So , heaven is all in the mind ?. Can I go there now ? .

    • Cadwallader

      How can I deal to the 72 virgins?

      • Bad__Cat

        You get 72 frustrated nuns who died of old age.

    • Kimbo

      Daniel 12:2

      “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”

      Biblically, and in contrast to much modern Christian spirituality, heaven is not a place you escape to once you ditch your ‘earth suit’. Instead, haeven is the place where the eternal presence of God abides, which will one day also be on earth:

      Revelation 21: 1-4

      “1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth”, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 AndI heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

      What actually happens between the time of death and the Resurrection of the Dead is not dealt with that much in Scripture, mainly because the hope of the final Resurrection is the primary emphasis of the writers.

      You may have been asking rhetorically, but I’m just saying…

      • johnbronkhorst

        You may know…is an agnostic a cowardly atheist?
        I always viewed myself as an atheist because there are only 2 states,…you either believe in GOD (have faith) or you don’t! Maybe agnostic means, you don’t but you are waiting for proof, therefore don’t have faith. Without faith you are an atheist. QED.
        Passing no judgements either way.

        • Kimbo

          Going by how you’ve defined it existentially, “there are only 2 states,…you either believe in GOD (have faith) or you don’t”, you could argue that.

          I think that is what this Scripture (directed by the risen and glorified Jesus to supposed ‘believers’ rather than agnostics or out-and-out atheists – who aren’t really ever directly addressed in Scripture. Scripture is always in the first instance “for” believers – not to bash the atheists and agnostics over the head) is about:

          “15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth”.

          However, if you define it from the viewpoint of detatched rational inquiry (if such a thing is possible), I don’t think agnosticism is cowardly. I think you could make a case atheism is presumptuous, because to dismiss the existence of God, you would need to know everything – which you can’t.

          I’m aware Christopher Hitchens (rightly) argues extraordinary claims (like the Incarnation, the working of miracles, including rising from the dead, and ascending to heaven, and arguably the existence of God himslef) require extraordinary proof.

          However, if I’ve read Hitchens properly, even he acknowledges he is intellectually an agnostic who is highly skeptical that any extraordinary proof can ever be produced – which makes him an atheist in practical terms.

          • TomTom

            If is presumptuous to dismiss the existence of God, isn’t it also presumptuous to claim that there is one?!

          • Kimbo

            Yes, but they are not equally presumptuous. Which is what I think you might be implying (I don’t want to be presumptuous :).

        • Muffin

          I think agnostic can be summed up as…. There may very well be a god, I just don’t care either way

    • cows4me

      Why does a mind need a body Ronnie? Does not the mind basically hold information. As I believe it information is eternal and does not require physical body. Information or the soul has no form but exists. Example. A CD may only weight a few grams but download the Encyclopedia Britannia on to it and the CD will be the same weight but know has tens of millions of bits of information on it. Does information need a physical form?

      • unsol

        Awesome. That kind of question is right up there with who created God & can God, as an omnipotent being, create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?

        In other words – a mind fuck!

  • LesleyNZ

    How sad that when anyone dies and they haven’t got right with God. All dressed up and no place to go………………………………..

    • Rodger T

      Which god?

    • GazzW

      Good on you Lesley. I am yet to figure it all out so you are a fortunate person to have your personal beliefs so firmly established.

      • LesleyNZ

        I believe in the sovereignty of God – but don’t think that I have it all figured. There are always questions. What I do know is that there is purpose to life – but what purpose is there here on earth if after you die there is nothing but a casket and your body all dressed up nice and what makes you, you has gone nowhere, or have you gone somewhere? This is a good booklet to read (especially for you GazzW, Tom Tom, Roger T, Troy and Ronnie Chow). Won’t take you long – tell me what you think about life and what it is all about after you have read it.
        Ultimate Questions by John Blanchard” http://www.uq.epbooks.org/uq/english.pdf
        “Life is full of questions. Some are trivial, some more serious — and some tremendously important. Even as you read these words you may have questions about your health, your financial situation, your job, your family or your future. But the greatest, the ultimate questions, are about God and your relationship to him. Nothing in life is more important than this. Good health, financial stability, secure employment, a contented family and a hopeful future are all things that people want. Yet even these are temporary and eventually pointless unless you have a living relationship with God, one that is clear and certain — and will last forever. In the following pages you will discover why such a relationship is so urgently needed — and how it is possible. The questions that follow are the most serious and
        important that anyone could ask. The answers are those that everyone needs. Please read these pages thoroughly and carefully — and if necessary more than once. You cannot afford to miss their message…….”

        Also here is a sermon (now stop complaining I haven’t posted a sermon in a while) if you have the time to read it. “Assurance of Salvation: Can I Really Be Sure?” by John G. Reisinger http://www.gracesermons.com/robbeeee/assurance.html

        • TomTom

          Oh Lesley, you can fuck right off with your booklet. I’ve done the whole read the bible shite, gone to Church, Sunday School and a Catholic school and from what I’ve seen, it’s just all a bunch of hooey.

          Life is about living to the full as you can, however you want to. For some this is raising a family. For others it’s travelling the world. For yet more others, it the pleasure of spending time with others or helping others through charity. It doesn’t need to have a higher overall mystical purpose. Just enjoy the ride :)

          • LesleyNZ

            Well that is not very nice to say that Tom Tom. Must have hit a raw nerve there! We do not know what tomorrow will bring….
            James 4:13-14 – Boasting About Tomorrow
            13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes………….

          • unsol

            Hmmmm quoting more scripture isn’t going to win you the battle or the war Lesley.

            I suspect you just pissed him off rather than hit a nerve; preaching at people merely cements peoples’ anti religion feelings.

          • LesleyNZ

            That is OK – it is God who saves through Jesus Christ – not me. That sermon I posted challenges the Catholic teaching about salvation. Catholics do not believe in assurance of salvation – instead they teach that good works get you to heaven. I can understand why Tom Tom thinks the way he does. That scripture verse is absolutely the truth. We all wonder about life and what it means – all of us.

          • TomTom

            The only raw nerves I have is of my own fucking fault, drinking myself into a lovely stupor last night and then having to get up at the godawful time of 8am.

            I’m not sure why you’re preaching on a blog – except it is a bit idiotic. Religious beliefs are a private matter, to be kept in the private domain.

          • LesleyNZ

            Really? Hmmm – so why the above post photo by Pete. Thought provoking, but guess you don’t like thinking or talking about what it says.

          • TomTom

            Because it’s hilarious and shows that some Christians don’t have any sense of what they are saying…

            It’s stupid to keep on saying that the afterlife is your motivating factor to believe in God. That shows that your sense of morality is on a par with kids – do the right thing only under fear of punishment/hope of reward.

          • LesleyNZ

            Catholicism tends to teach fear of punishment/hope of reward not Christianity. Christians do understand and have sense of what they believe – as a non-Christian I understand why you say what you do.

          • unsol

            Bit harsh then young Tom – I share your sentiments re the attempt to convert having been there done that with church (not Catholic) too. I find it best to either ignore or discredit via the wealth of academia out there.

            But end of the day we don’t comment on blogs to change people’s minds – anyone with any degree of intellect has generally formed their views over many years so a cyber war is hardly going to make a difference.

            We comment to express our views & she is entitled to hers. :-)

        • Rodger T

          The beauty of living in a secular society, is that life goes on whether or not you want to believe in a invisible sky daddy or not.
          Your heaven is my idea of what hell is, I could`nt possibly think of anything worse than being stuck in a paddock for eternity with whiny snivelling christians endlessly bleating how great their god is.

          • LesleyNZ

            “whiny snivelling Christians ” – most I know are not like that. Oh well Roger T – we will all know when we die won’t we?

          • Rodger T

            No, we won`t be any wiser once we have died because we will have ceased to exist.

          • unsol

            “Your heaven is my idea of what hell is, I could`nt possibly think of anything worse than being stuck in a paddock for eternity with whiny snivelling christians”

            Heaven would probably exclude such people; I suspect very few people who think they are Christians would end up in Heaven. Including some who comment on here (Lesley excluded – I have said before that I think she represents her faith quite well).

      • I don’t think that any of us have it all figured out GazzW. Putting your faith in God through Christ is quite simply a leap of faith.

    • TomTom

      How sad is it for someone to waste their whole life fervently believing in the Christian God (which variation, might I ask), only to die and to come face to face with Allah? Buddha? Krishna? Akal Purakh? The Moon Goddess and the Horned God? The Flying Spaghetti Monster……?

  • maninblack

    I am sick of the greens and their loony policies.. They are doing there best to fuck this country.

    • Whafe

      Liabour + Green Taliban are that loony that it has the MSM in a tail spin, because they are in utter disbelief as to how appalling these Liabour + Green Taliban are functioning, if it can be called that..

      Even a left leaning MSM are questioning the hypocrisy of Liabour… Another way of saying it, how long can Liabour + Green Taliban shit in their own nests and expect the MSM to tolerate constantly being shat on….

      Liabour + Green Taliban, you are a blight and embarrassment to New Zealand.

      Get used to what has happened to Labor in Australia, because the same is happening here in New Zealand to Liabour + Green Taliban

  • RightOfGenghis

    It’s desparate stuff but Dr Russell Norman has emailed me and asked me to mobilise the whale army…

    “We only have a couple of weeks left to get the last 16,000 valid signatures to make the Keep Our Assets petition count and stop asset sales.
    To reach that goal we’ve organised a Signathon on Saturday 22nd and Sunday 23rd of June. If there’s any time the petition needs your help, it’s now”

    • johnbronkhorst

      I saw a page of the petition at my local bakery (don’t tell the wife I was there).
      It had 4 signatures on it. So he only need 4000 pages like that and he is in!
      HA HA HA

      • Rodger T

        We are assuming you were buying the gluten free block of cardboard John, not the six pack of doughnuts with extra cream. : )

        • johnbronkhorst

          WWWEEELLLLL…..eerr yes that’ll do it.
          Oh my god I sound like shearer!! AAAAHHHH

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            I just dropped in to say hello.

          • johnbronkhorst

            Hello

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            Hmmmm…arghhh, well, shhhh….aaaa- I am Sheep, David Sheep…how r you doin? Vote for me.

          • Whanga_Cynic

            Don’t inhale.

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            I see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. I don’t know anything – Sheep.

      • LesleyNZ

        What kind of bakery was it – a Green one?

    • GazzW

      Well I think that all members of the WO Army should get out and help Wussel and vote as many times as possible. It will no doubt come as a surprise how many people in NZ are called Mickey Mouse, Julius Caesar or Bart Simpson.

      • RightOfGenghis

        Good news Gazz. We are looking for 300 at Yarrow Stadium tonight. I’ll be there ready to intercept Cows and his mates on his way in

        • cows4me

          What’s at Yarrows tonight ROG . Taking the family in next week to watch the frogys get their sorry arses whipped and you can be damn sure won’t be signing no poxy Melon petition.

          • RightOfGenghis

            Damn, right game wrong date. No worries, we’ll be waiting!

        • Travis Poulson

          Cows is on a cruise in some tropical region.

      • Hazards001

        You called?

      • Whanga_Cynic

        But, but, would it be wrong of me to sign it AGAIN as Neil Alden Armstrong ?

  • Ronnie Chow

    Self destructive tendencies of Labor MP’s parallels that of the individual…

    “People harm themselves and defeat their projects by means of poor judgments, by maladaptive responses, through unforeseen consequences of non-optimal methods, and by disregarding costs and risks in favor of immediate pleasure or relief; however, there is no clear evidence of intentional, deliberate self-destructiveness among normal people .”

    Conclusion ; the Labor Party is anything but normal .

  • Old Fisher dropped this piece

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890674

    Just make sure you are not holding a liquid over your keyboard before reading it first

    • Phill

      I wonder if we will see any Lab/Green politico’s jumping up and down about Gender Equality on this one….

      • Whafe

        Not a shit show, she will not get punished at all…. The poor fella’s life is going to have some serious challenges and hurdles for him to over come…

  • unitedtribes

    Are Labours internal polls showing them under 30%?

    • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

      Wait for Roy Morgan poll due out any day now. National at 39% and Labour at 36% and Greens at 15%. Game over Tories.

      • GazzW

        Aren’t we due for a couple of real polls yet before the next Rouge Morgan?

    • GregM

      The only internal polling being done at Labour is being done by Trev, cos he does it for free.

  • Ronnie Chow

    The thing about Heaven is that it’s full of Christian no bodies .

    • LesleyNZ

      How do you know?

      • Ronnie Chow

        Never seen a body move after death.

  • Troy

    BIBLE – Basic Information Before Leaving Earth… fine for some, but for me it leaves out too much information that is required to be known.

  • chadchambers

    “British Prime Minister David Cameron is promising to “sweep away” tax secrecy in the country as he seeks to persuade the leaders of the G8 to agree to establish a set of global standards to tackle tax evasion.

    The prime minister has said he will a introduce a new central register requiring the true owners of shadowy “shell” companies to be declared to the tax authorities.

    In an interview with The Guardian, he said he was determined to put an end to the “secretive companies in secretive locations” which cost billions of dollars in lost tax revenues.

    Cameron will also tell leaders from Britain’s network of overseas territories and Crown dependencies that they must do more to clamp down on tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.

    The prime minister has summoned the 10 leaders for talks in Downing Street ahead of next week’s G8 summit in Northern Ireland, where international tax compliance is one of the key issues on the agenda.

    The twin moves reflects an acknowledgment by Cameron that the UK needs to “get its own house in order” if he is to persuade the G8 leaders to sign up to the development a worldwide set of standards on the exchange of information between tax authorities.

    Mr Cameron said he wanted to set an example by clamping down on British accountants and lawyers who use shell companies to conceal the identity of the final beneficiaries.

    “We need to know more about who owns which company – beneficial ownership – because that is how a lot of people and a lot of companies avoid tax, using secretive companies in secretive locations,” he said.

    “The way to sweep away the secrecy and get to the bottom of tax avoidance and tax evasion and cracking down on corruption is to have a register of beneficial ownerships so the tax authorities can see who owns beneficially every company.””

    Hear, hear. The first person to pipe up about not paying more tax than you have to should give themselves an uppercut.

  • chadchambers

    Is it about time the people of the United States were disarmed? They don’t have clue how to control firearms.

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