Saturday General Debate

via itshere.com

via itshere.com

Morning all.

Thanks to your support, the blog is continuing its surge into popularity.  In spite of being labelled ‘far right’ and a ‘hate blog’ by those that take a different political view (or is it just frustration and envy that what we have to say is finding fertile ground?), things are ticking over nicely.  The full time return of Cam to the blog has it now clocking up in traffic in 3 and a half days what it takes the 4th placed blog in the country a whole month to achieve.

We needed help, and we were offered plenty.  People who have stepped up and have had their work facing the public this week are Donovan Jackson who offered to write WhaleTech posts, and last night James Howlett joined the team taking over the Trivia Duties from Nick.  Welcome to the team James and Donovan!  We have one more ‘intern’ that’s about to burst into public view, and then I’ll need to rattle the cages of some others who have offered but seem to have disappeared.  Many hands make light work – don’t think we don’t need you.

You can step up from being Regular Whaleoil Army to being on the team.  You don’t have to involve yourself on a daily basis: you can just submit an article via the Tipline as the mood takes you.  Along the lines of Owl and Policy Parrot, or even just provide us with a post to put up about an issue that is is either burning you up or you have a specific interest in.  Doesn’t even have to be political.

As Crow said in his Truth Swan Song thinly veiled threats comments on the blog (I paraphrase), ‘And people should know Cameron has other people writing for him!’.  Well of course he does.  Does anyone think this blog can put out 30+ posts every day, not even missing Xmas and New Year without it actually being the result of a dedicated community?  As someone told me yesterday, Whaleoil is a broad church.  We draw on the raw input from dozens and dozens of contributors on many topics, often serious, and sometimes frivolous – like Cactus Kate admitting she has Bertolli Olive Oil in her cupboard (but not revealing why).  And that doesn’t even include the Tipline, where many of you are pointing out issues to us, many of which lead to posts being written about them.

Cameron and I were just remarking yesterday how proud we are of our Commenting Community right now.  We’ve had a week of controversial issues.  Issues that divide us on non-political lines, such as Bain’s guilt or innocence.  And not even once did the debate degrade into personal attacks.  It is great to see, and thank you.

The other side of this coin is that as our Whaleoil Poppy grows taller and taller, we’re attracting more and more people just randomly lashing out.  Some of the emails and phone calls Cameron is getting would make your hair stand on end.  The reason I mention this, is because you’re seeing a few more “This message was deleted” notifications, and no, we haven’t started redacting views we don’t agree with.  We are simply removing the crass drive-by abuse that tries to damage the blog.

Thank you all for your support – we love getting your feedback.

Speaking of which, this is the Saturday General Debate post.  To those new to the blog, this is where you or anyone else can bring up any topic and there is no need to stick to the subject at hand.  Let’s see what is on your hivemind today?

 


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  • blokeintakapuna

    Just curious, are you able to track daily readership numbers with the weather? Is there an increase in readership with the cold/wet weather?

    • Not formally, but sometimes it is obvious weather is a factor. When there are strong stories out there being covered here, then we don’t really see any weather impact as it is drowned out.

      But there is a ‘base interest’, in the blog. We get x traffic no matter what the blog is doing on that particular day. Then I do believe we see weather related up and down swings. Down, when we have had a spell of bad weather and suddenly we have a good day or two, up for the reverse case.

      We have other rhythms too. On Fridays things taper off a bit. Saturdays are generally our quietest day of the week, and Sunday tends to look bleak until mid/late afternoon when people come back/inside and catch up with the blog. There is a good proportion of readers that only seem to read Whaleoil during weekdays. I believe they enjoy the guilty pleasure of reading the blog during work hours. A fair amount of those will be media, pollies and spin doctors and their respective helpers. (The blog is very closely watched)

      You (anyone) can track the traffic swings here (http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s10whaleoil&r=12, keeping in mind those stats are for the monthly blog rankings, and our commercial stats are much better than that (via Google Analytics – published regularly, but available by request). Sitemeter offers an agreed upon way to measure traffic so blogs can be ranked monthly

      What we do here is auditable by anyone, including the bonus traffic we may get when the weather turns bad.

  • Polish Pride

    New Wistleblower (World Bank Lawyer) comes out to expose extent of corruption at the World Bank and ownership of Main Stream Media

    • cows4me

      I’m beginning to think Mick Hoskins is on their payroll PP. The way he talks up the financial situation of the world is beyond belief. He’s like the talking heads on CNBC, market up fantastic, market down fantastic time to buy. The other day he was talking about the medium wage raising in the USA, bullshit. He went on to say how the stock market is rebounding and the average Joe can make a buck. Again bullshit, what he didn’t say. Only 10% of the American population own shares or bonds of that 10% 80% of the wealth in shares and bonds is owned by 10% of that group. Yes medium wages have raising but again this is because the top 10% are raking it in and this spread over the working population makes the average wage look a lot higher then it is. In real terms wages have in fact dropped over the last decade. The average American is basically living off credit and barely keeping their heads above water.

      • Patrick

        Are you sure about that – only 10% own shares or bonds? I worked there a few years back & everyone had shares because their retirement funds invest in them. They have a system where you can use some of that fund to dabble yourself, guys were spending half their working time trading shares.

  • “Decent journalist, trained and skilled” David Fisher goes in to bat for Joe Karam again, and gets stuck into Judith Collins; it must be a day ending in d-a-y…

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10893699

    Mr Karam must be getting anxious about that pay-day

    • unsol

      Innocent until proven guilty; David Bain is innocent in the eyes of the law. PC effectively ruled the 1995 verdict null and void. So he essentially faced the 2009 trial as an innocent man. To assume otherwise is to presume guilt before innocence. Just say your wife declared to the media that you raped her. When you may not have. Court of opinion would assume you were guilty. The court of public opinion was alive in 1995 just the same as it was in 2009. There wont be another trial. It is over. Collin’s innocence test means nothing. Key will pardon & compensate Bain because the public opinion won’t accept otherwise. Sometimes you have to cut your loses. Lesson here: police need to always be above disrepute. Knowing they have the right man is completely different to meeting the burden of proof, to establishing guilt beyond reasonable doubt. They failed miserably. Like all big cases. They need to learn from this and stop costing this country unnecessarily.

      • Nechtan

        I disagree on the “public opinion won’t accept otherwise”. There are probably just as many public who would be outraged at a payout.

        • Sponge

          I agree. I would be most pissed off if he got a pay out unless someone can prove Robin did it.

        • Patrick

          Put it to the vote – have a referendum on polling day, that would get the voters out, if Bain wins he gets the money, if he loses he gets taken up in a small aeroplane over the ocean to 10,00ft & pushed out the door Argentinean Junta style.

          • Nechtan

            A tad harsh Patrick, a 9mm to the back of the head would be easy and cheaper

      • That’s true unsol, but to receive compensation, Bain has to prove that he is innocent on the balance on probabilities. The onus is on him to prove his innocence, not on the Crown to prove his guilt.

        If Judith Collins has concerns over specific issues, she would not be doing her job if those were not thoroughly tested. She has a duty of care not to simply hand out your money and mine just on Joe Karam and David Fisher’s say-so,

        • unsol

          The arguments around proving ones innocence on the balance on probabilities are always going to be convoluted. But given that this test is apparently one that pertains more to civil proceedings than criminal (some say this is because such cases should meet what is supposedly a much lower standard of whoever has the most ticks in their box -evidence against -should lose) then I think it needs looking into.

          The NZ Bill of rights stipulates in its minimum standards of criminal procedure that everyone has the right to be “presumed innocent until proved guilt according to the law [beyond reasonable doubt]”.

          This appears to contradict the MOJ compensation law (see below). Which means that if we were to say take the example of a husband raping his wife, his innocence would be almost impossible to prove (e.g. semin). Yet the MOJ in what appears to be in contrast to the Bill of Rights is saying tough shit. Be thankful you got out of prison when you did.

          Presumed to be innocent should be innocent until proven otherwise. A not guilty verdict means a presumably innocent person was not found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Doesn’t this mean that the jury has then concluded the probability of the person being innocent was higher than the probability of them being guilty? So if they were presumed innocent before the trial (which DB was in 2009) then his not guilty verdict surely means he still presumably innocent?

          The real problem is though, if the law doesn’t treat us as innocent until proven guilty in every way then the police etc can be a law until their own – from unjust speeding tickets to criminal cases. Something which our legal history tells us has been happening all to frequently.

          Anyway things to do & all that so will leave you with the MOJ bits:

          “There is no legal right to compensation for wrongful conviction and imprisonment. However, the Government in its discretion can compensate someone wrongfully convicted and imprisoned by making an ex gratia payment.

          Compensation under the following scheme is only payable to persons who:

          (a) are imprisoned following a wrongful conviction that is subsequently set aside;

          (b) are, at a minimum, innocent on the balance of probabilities.”

        • Why doesn’t David Fisher release the 34 reasons? Why does he keep them quiet…he obviously has them, how about publishing them David?

          • fozzie2

            Why doesn’t Judge Judy – after all they are her excuses !

      • They will cut Joe’s losses…there will no compensation and these personal attacks on Judith Collins by Reed, Karam, Fisher and others will just harden her resolve…she isn’t weak like you, neither does she bow to public pressure.

        • unsol

          Another attempt to insult…..is that playing by your rules?

          DB will get compensation.

          • unsol, we’ve done the “why is Cam being rude when we’re not allowed to be” bit today and many, many times before. It’s enough now. It doesn’t add to the debate, and I’m getting really bored with it. Can we leave that one in the bottom drawer for a long while please?

          • mike

            If he is innocent then who committed the murders? There was only one other suspect put forward, and that was the father… and the evidence against him is speculation, innuendo and rumours… there is not one single shred of solid evidence which would stand up in court against Robyn.

            On the balance of probabilities, and the weight of evidence David Bain is more likely to be guilty than anyone else… therefore he is not entitled to any compo.

            That is the law, and since you are such a strong advocate of the law you should be pushing for this law to be upheld.

          • Polish Pride

            They don’t and never had to prove Robyn Bain committed the murders remember. Just create ‘reasonable doubt’.

          • unsol

            Yes I am a strong advocate of the law being followed, hence my belief that the justice system should never waiver from Blackstone’s formulation. Re “If he is innocent then who committed the murders?” – my 2nd respond to KS covers this, but will recap a little here: the court has reached their verdict. The only pertinent question that remains is whether, when considering compensation, a lower standard such as proving innocence on the balance of probabilities should carry more weight than the much higher standard of presumed innocence unless proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Further since it is a lesser standard then surely, by reaching a not guilty verdict the jury concluded DB’s innocence was a higher probability than his alleged guilt meaning this MOJ test has already been met? Unless presumption of innocence before a trial is not quite as innocent post a not guilty conviction?

          • Nechtan

            I think you have the cart before the horse, in the 2nd trial he was found not guilty (in part to so much evidence being disallowed,not to mention a suspect jury). To my way of thinking its an easier barrow to push across the not guilty line than it is a barrow to push across the innocent line. Two different things.

          • unsol

            And I could argue the same to you. The 1995 verdict was ruled by the PC as “presenting a substantial miscarriage of justice” for a whole host of reasons they painstakingly identified. This made that verdict null & void. And it had to. NZ Bill of Rights sets out minimal criminal proceedings – right to fair trial (definitely not the case in 1995 in terms of evidence disallowed, investigation procedures & a Dunedin jury that could not help but be incredibly biased given the swarms of speculation, debate & gossip swirling around at the time – I was in Dunedin) & the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. In 2009 DB went into that trial as an innocent man. Anyhoo. We will see what comes of this – very interesting debate, but very sad that it has come about at the expense of 5 lives.

          • Nechtan

            Yes at the expense of 5 lives, well put, perhaps we forget that. (and I’ll pay up on that, having being focused on the debate and not the reason for it)

          • No. He. Won’t.

          • Nechtan

            He better not, or this poster will be yelling into his beer

          • kehua

            He will be compensated alright ,just like OJ……..

          • pukakidon

            Feel free to make a donation to him. But dont volunteer my money or any other tax payers. I am not that stupid to believe the Karam and Reed bulshit. Why dont you set up a fund for poor old mad David and those who believe he is not guilty can contribute as well.

      • Orange

        I do like reminding people that it is “Presumed innocent until proven guilty.” Not “innocent until proven guilty” which would not make sense.

        • unsol

          Failing to read the thread properly again I see….

          • Guest

            You can press the edit button and fix it if you want.

          • Guest

            Orange^

          • Orange

            ^^ not me. I think that is bad form and people shouldn’t pretend to be posting as others. New low unsol? You can also press delete if the post doesn’t aid the conversation.

          • unsol

            Orange you posted that first comment then deleted it. I posted the second guest (“orange ^”) to make sure you owned up. Unless you are deleted old comments on closed posts (which many of us do) you should always own a comment or delete it & replace with [comment deleted] or …. if thinking better about contributing to unnecessary tangents.

          • Orange

            a) you’re not the moderator, b) don’t lie and post as someone else, c) “owned up”??? stop being a clown

          • You! Listen to me. Follow me to the post near this one headed “EXPLANATION”.

          • unsol

            Orange your feisty response belies the trivial nature of this little debate. “Guest” does not belong to you. You posted the first comment. I saw it. So I responded in kind :)

            Edit. Oh bugger. Now look. We’re both about to get told off by Petal!

          • You! Listen to me. Follow me to the post near this one headed “EXPLANATION”

          • You! Listen to me. Follow me to the post near this one headed “EXPLANATION”

        • EXPLANATION.

          Orange, unsol:

          You’re both right, and you’re both wrong.

          We looked into it and it appears Disqus had a brain fade. Just for a few posts, it allowed you both to reply while you thought you were logged in, but somehow Disqus didn’t realise it, so it posted your comments as “Guest”.

          We’ve tracked the IP numbers, and one guest post matches unsol’s and one Orange’s.

          So before you both turn this into a slinging match, you’re victims of a technical glitch.

          Now, let’s move on and play nice. Thank you :)

          • unsol

            Oh well that ruins the fun. I thought I must have pressed delete!
            Pheew….not too much of a telling off then…yaye!

          • Orange

            Much ado about nothing then. Sorry unsol.

      • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

        I think most of the people in NZ think David Bain is guilty. He’s on a par with Ewen McDonald. It’s just the ones who think he’s innocent make more noise. Just another example of the tail wagging the dog in the parish pump politics arena of New Zealand it seems.

        • unsol

          I think it is public opinion 50/50 at best re DB guilt but more likely to be around 70/30 he is innocent. But either way it is irrelevant. The court has reached their verdict. Question is whether, when considering compensation, a lower standard such as proving innocence on the balance of probabilities should carry more weight than the much higher standard of presumed innocence unless proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

          • Nechtan

            Not sure what “public” you interact with but the 70/30 split you talk about is leaning the other way with my circle. DB is as guilty as they come. Arguably he has served his time for the killings, fair enough , but no pardon, no money.

          • unsol

            It’s just a perception based on what I have read & heard – I don’t know if there are any sound polls out there to quantify either version?

          • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

            I think you’re right about 70/30 but it goes the other way. Either way those who think he’s innocent generally are probably holding that opinion because the man on the TV told them so while they were waiting for Fair Go or Coronation Street to start. The alternate scenario of Robin Bain doing it is so out of this world I can’t believe it was posited. Good of the counsel to bring out Princess Diana’s pathologist too. They really do go for the lowest common denominator don’t they?

          • unsol

            Yep they do.

            Re “holding that opinion because the man on the TV told them so while they were waiting for Fair Go or Coronation Street to start”…I think that is a fair assumption when looking at those who declare their ‘verdict’ with absolute certainty on either side of the debate!

            Alternative scenarios – yesterday I reference someone who suggested Stephen shooting everyone then DB struggling with & killing him. The other main alternative of course is Robin killing everyone & DB killing him – remember there was a “cluster of unidentifiable fingerprints” on the firearm meaning Robin’s or Stephen’s got smudged when David finished them off. Who knows. It’s speculation, but that side of it is done & dusted. We need absolute closure. Doubt we’ll get it though.

          • Yes they did reach a verdict after a number years of very public PR by Karam, a travesty of a court case and in the end, contrary to what you say he was found NOT GUILTY, which is a long, long way from innocent…which you seem to constantly claim.

          • unsol

            Once again, n I have not said David is innocent. I have not ever offered an opinion on who I think the killer is. You need to read comments properly Cameron instead of cherry picking the parts you want to sensationalize.

            You claim you are smart & I am thick yet you haven’t even attempted to addresses the pertinent issue in my comment.

            The 2009 verdict is final & you are merely postulating an opinion based on your perception of the case & the surrounding speculation.

            Compensation will be paid.

          • pukakidon

            What needs to happen for the benefit of the media morons out there who just listens to the idiotic nonsense of TV 3, is to put all the facts in the open media, such as how Robins Finger prints are not on the weapon and that Davids are, how David washed his blood stained clothes after the event and all the other evidence. What a one sided load of turd that 3rd degree is. No wonder TV3 is going down the toilet.

            It seems that it is totally ok to spout on about how innocent DB is in the media, but do not dare put any of the real evidence in the public. Being found not guilty by a tainted jury, that some of the members lied about previous criminal convictions and then rushed to the after match party to have drinks with good old mad jersey boy and his self promoting lawyer just doesn’t wash.

            The media in the country are so devious and know that the 30 percent who believe DB is innocent are cretins who have their only source of information as the silly TV3 and Herald

            churnalists..

    • Let him have his fun. While the Herald keeps paying him, he knows how to keep the wheel spinning. You might not like him, but he’s doing what he needs to do for his paymasters.

      He used to leak to this blog, and then turned on it.

      Then he used to leak to Bombers blog, and he turned on him.

      David Fisher would make a very good shock blogger. I think the Herald editorial guidelines are keeping him from what he would really like to do. You can see some of that spill into Twitter on a daily basis (when does he sleep? Does he have family?)

      But he uses people up so quickly that I don’t think anyone should be foolish enough to trust him. He is what media is to many people – a tool (heh). You go to him if you want him to do some dirty work for you. Dirty jobs, done dirt cheap, eh?

      But don’t ever forget that he can turn around and bite you too. In fact, that’s the technique to get more story from the same lead. First you present one side. When that’s played out, you throw the person/organisation under the bus for more copy, looking “balanced” in the process.

      Fisher hitting on Collins is nothing more than a selfish need to kick people that have expressed public support for Cameron. The more we tell people that The Fat German needs to go to the USA and face the music, the more Fisher tries to prevent it. He doesn’t like the fact that Cameron is successful in spite of all his attempts to kill the juggernaut that’s Whaleoil.

      I can’t prove it, because it was before my time, but I believe he was tasked with snuggling up to Cam by giving him some juicy stuff that the NZ Herald couldn’t/wouldn’t touch. And then once he had the inside straight, he tried to break Cam by placing some quite irrelevant and personal stories in the Herald about him. Instead of breaking Cam, it makes him stronger. People don’t understand him – even though it is actually very simple. He’s a driven man, and the more you try to stop him, the more he will succeed.

      I admire Fisher. He’s a cold hearted bastard that gets the job done. I can see why he’s the Herald’d golden boy. What I don’t understand is that those who he regularly kicks in the shins haven’t blacklisted him. I mean, if a dog continues to bite you, do you feed it or put it down?

      (the above constitutes my personal opinion, and shouldn’t be considered representative of Cam or the blog as a platform)

      • unsol

        Hey Pete can you please email my comment back to me re the parallel lines …I have already saved a copy of the main part but want to keep the intro too. Thanks.

        Oh and by no personal attacks I assume that excludes the insults Cameron fires off….some rather mild by his own standards, but not quite compliments are they?!!! In order for a standard of behaviour to be met surely it must demonstrated first? Or is this a case of do as I say not as I do? Actually, from memory perhaps the rules to say that….. :)

        Perhaps that explains why one trick ponies seem to be turning up on here more & more & why there has been an escalation of personal attacks against Cameron…

        Interesting re Fisher.

        Guest posts – I’ve always been tempted but I doubt anyone would find anything I had to say that interesting…especially when they would have to probably wade through 2000 words haha!

        • Where did you send it unsol? If via the tipline, that goes direct to Cam and that’s tightly confidential unless he forwards me something from it.

        • “Oh and by no personal attacks I assume that excludes the insults Cameron fires off….some rather mild by his own standards, but not quite compliments are they?!!! In order for a standard of behaviour to be met surely it must demonstrated first? Or is this a case of do as I say not as I do? Actually, from memory perhaps the rules to say that….. :)”

          Billy Connolly never will stop saying ‘Fuck’, and Cam will never stop being Cam.

          Let’s just get used to it and move on.

          Long time observers of the blog will have noted that 2013 Cam isn’t even 10% as crass as 2009 Cam. But to force Cam into a mode of vanilla communication that essentially strips his personality away on what is his personal blog isn’t only strategically idiotic, it would also be completely pointless.

          • unsol

            Yes I am one of those long timers & have noticed the improvement.

            So you’re saying he cant help himself? I’m fine with that. I admire his tenacity to keep trying to get under people’s skin….of course such attacks only ever work if one gives a flying fuck about someone’s jarbs in cyberspace!

            His Jekyll and Hyde thing is probably one of the reasons why I like this blog.

            The problem is of course is that it tends to draw those who are more Hyde than Jekyll

            Anyway gotta go – this blog is awesome at eating away free time!

          • I’m saying it is part and parcel of Brand Whaleoil.

    • Patrick

      Fisher – he very cunning man, he back two horses. If that fat German doesn’t get a pay day then maybe Joey & his Jersey boy will, then Fisher has front row seats when the party starts, very cunning man that Fisher. Or maybe he is just another subversive leftie commie loving Cee U Not Tuesday.

  • motorizer

    i would love to see a poll with twenty to fifty questions for the whalearmy to answer. questions that are normal from “are you gay” through to “do you trust the news on tv”. the purpose of this would be to see the results data just to show the naysayers how diverse the readers of the blog are and to prove how it is not just about “right wing” “facist” redneck” interests.

    • unsol

      Would be interesting…..but I would like to poll to acknowledge how many exact readers are there vs how many actually comment or are likely to vote?

      Pete – do you know?

      • The whole business of web site metrics (measuring the performance of web sites) is a woolie one. I can go on about this for ages, so let me give three quick(ish) points:

        1) We don’t really know. Nobody does

        2) As long as we use the same ruler, we can make comparative evaluations of web site performance

        3) The numbers we get are there, or thereabouts. Good enough to make general decisions or inferences.

        This blog is measured to have been read by approximately 100,000 different IP numbers over the month. What does that mean? 100,000 people?

        Critics would say, much less than that. Because if you access the blog from work and from home, that would be double counting you. If you also access it from your phone, that would be triple counting you?

        Does this mean Whaleoil only has 33,000 people reading it every month?

        No. Because many IP numbers are used by multiple people. The same household, flat, McDonalds WiFi, company, Government department, etc all come out through the same “gateway” IP. So these sorts of IP could actually represent two, three, dozens or even over a hundred actual real people (in the case of a large company or government department IP number)

        The thing to remember is that all web sites suffer the same “woolie” problem when trying to measure their audience, so criticising that 100,000 is really 33,000 or may even be 150,000 is pointless.

        To answer your question, I have no idea how many readers there are in total, but to be coy, I’d say between 50,000 and 150,000!

        How many actually comment… I haven’t got a place I can go get that answer, but probably several hundred, with less than one hundred being regulars. Most people read and don’t engage by getting involved with commenting.

        • unsol

          Why not poll it – how many people read this blog in your house etc.

          No one I know reads this blog. Some are left wing so prefer others, but most are either not interested or simply find it too crude /shock jock.

          • How does a poll measure this when we can’t ensure everyone answers?

            That’s why recording IP numbers is the only practical way. It gives us the best way to measure how many unique “internet locations” have accessed the blog.

            “Audited circulation figures” or “market share” are all woolie measurements. Companies that perform these metrics do their best, but in the end, it is, and continues to be, a reasonable stab in the twighlight.

          • Hazards001

            I know a number of people that read this blog, from work and my social life. It’s why I don’t give away more of who I am. I’ve already had one mate ask if I was Hazard at the pub. Denied it. Made me laugh though, I’m always the same and easy to read! lol. (note to self about using keywords on here)

          • Travis Poulson

            Of course if he’s reading now you realize you’ve just given yourself away…..

          • Hazards001

            nope..he’s not reading now and never does in the weekends…and I happen to know he’s not around anyway. I’m not completely daft. I’ve put plenty of stuff on here that would give me away if I didn’t watch it.

            EDIT: not that I’d really care, I’m the same everywhere…maybe a bit more circumspect at work.

        • trisha

          In my household and on my IP ….. 10 visiting family members read WOBH and sometimes they comment under my name or we have a discussion on a topic and collectively write a comment, we age between 15-60 years old.
          At the moment every ones going around showing their parallel lines on their thumbs……. amazing.
          Keep on blogging on.

          • Sounds like a fun household

    • Sounds like fun. Do you want to compile a list? I’m quite willing to run it. Of course, just like the Whale Army can skew other site polls…. those who live by the sword die by the sword :)

      If we’re really looking for answers and other people want this blog to look bad, there is no real way to stop them. Heh.

      • motorizer

        ok ill email you a proposal.

        • Here is a list submitted just now. If anyone wants to add to it, I’ll try and run the poll tomorrow.

          have you ever fired a gun

          were you expelled from school

          have you/do you need to overcome hardship/”poverty

          do you think about the future

          are you married

          are you heterosexual

          are you in paid employment

          do you like pets

          do you play a musical instrument (even badly)

          do you think it is important to be tidy

          do you have children

          have you lived up to you parents expectations

          are you a blue collar worker

          do you hate your boss

          are you vegan/vegetarian

          do you have a car

          do you have a motorbike

          do you appreciate art

          have you ever been fired

          do you have a criminal conviction

          do you trust television news

          do you believe in god/a god of any sort

          have you read 1984 or Animal farm
          do you believe in high level conspiracy

          are you active physicaly

          are you active mentally

          are you bothered about pollution

          are you bothered about “the greenhouse effect”

          do you avoid synthetic clothing/products

          do you believe in aliens

          do you have a secret you are hiding

          should there be capital punishment

          do you want less government control of your life

          do you have an irrational phobia

          do you still live in the town that you were born in

          can you save money

          • Whanga_Cynic

            Do you trust scientists

          • johnbronkhorst

            As always….verify.
            I don’t trust scientists that make conclusions framed as absolutes.
            I don’t trust scientists who seem to have come to a conclusion, BEFORE all the results are in.

          • Change to “Do you trust the scientific method”?

          • Whanga_Cynic

            Not quite what I had in mind. The scientific method is one thing, scientists and their interpretation of results (just think Global Waning, or whatever) is a totally different thing.

          • Ok then. But lumping “Scientists” together is a bit unfair.

            Oh, hang on.. politicians, journalists, gotcha…

          • johnbronkhorst

            I’ll answer them…please tell me if I am psychopath……..and then lock your door!
            Answers
            Yes
            No
            Yes
            Yes
            Yes
            Yes
            Self employed
            Yes
            No (my music talent is scarily bad)
            No
            No
            Hope So
            Sometimes
            I’m my own boss , so NO
            No
            Yes
            Had one years ago.
            Yes (what I consider it to be)
            Yes
            No
            No (always verify)
            No
            Yes & No
            Sort Of
            Always
            Yes
            No
            No
            I don’t disbelieve
            Always
            DEFINATELY!!!!
            DEFINATELY!!!
            Not that I have found, so far.
            Broadly speaking
            Yes

          • unsol

            Please post via poll next week – happy to answer & keen to see the overall results. Good fun!!

          • Whanga_Cynic

            I agree, great idea.

          • Polish Pride

            do you receive a benefit

          • Hazards001

            God thing was in there

          • Hazards001

            Yes to all of the above…except the vegan,trusting the news,greenhouse drivel and living in the same rathole I was born in…moved to a different one…lotsa times..

            Oh…and I don’t hate my boss..I’m completely indifferent to him.

          • cows4me

            Do you put your milk in your cup before you pour the tea.

          • cows4me

            Thousands of times

            No

            Yes

            As much as I think of the past

            Usually

            Haven’t fancied 23 yet

            No, slavery

            Yes ask my daughter we have pets for Africa

            No I tend to play up
            Not sure I would guess so.
            No usually wear a singlet or T shirt
            Sometimes
            Piss off
            V8
            MotorX
            Yes but I have a bigger appreciation for nature
            No
            No
            Full of shit
            Yes God is real, very real.
            Of course you would have to be pretty thick to believe otherwise
            Only between Monday and Sunday
            Aarr……………..?
            No the main pollution is coming from those that would rule.
            My mates got a greenhouse he doesn’t seem to be to bothered
            Who would know
            Bloody oath
            I did but I can’t remember where I put it
            Yeah bomb Wellington
            Fucking oath
            Explain irrational ?
            Nope, never lived in a town.
            Depends on the dairy payout

  • Well done team. The hate on Cam is hilarious. That some call this blog “irrelevant” and “far right” shows how terrified they are of what happens when a media channel not staffed by leftie journos has so much reach. Harder to control the message when your BS will get called out ASAP.

    • blokeintakapuna

      I wouldn’t put it past activists from the Left doing “flash mob trolling” trying to hijack the post. The antics as the election draws near will be kinda interesting!

  • Whafe

    Am at the airport in Dunedin, about to fly back to Auckland… Have been working down here for 3 days, great night last night at the Clinton Lions Club Forage Brassica Yield Comp…. Anyway, many coffees were had. Queenstown, Arrowtown, Alexander, Cromwell, Lumsden, Winton, Gore and Balclutha….. I can assure you, the shittiest coffee I have had in NZ is in Balclutha…..

    • Good part of the country. Love it there. But not at this time of the year. Brrrr.

      • Pete George

        It’s relatively mild in parts of the south (coastal), We had our first semi-decent frost in Dunedin this morning for weeks.

        • I was specifically thinking about Alexandra. I fell in love with it, but I’m told it’s not the place to be if you like warm tootsies.

          • Pete George

            I’ve lived in Alexandra, and Cromwell, and Lowburn, and sure it gets cold but nothing that can easily be coped with.

          • I’ve been in Cromwell a dozen times, and I can’t get over the wind tunnel that lake creates. Wind affects my mood (as it does my mum’s)

          • Pete George

            There were always wind effects in Cromwell, due to heat differentials. In the summer a wind often came up the gorge in late afternoon and evening and cooled off the old part of town. It has less effect elsewhere.

          • blokeintakapuna

            Same. Think it effects most people after a while. But nothing like how it does the cats!

          • Whafe

            Yeah was a bit chilly… I stayed in Alexandra on Wednesday evening, was a good call, as flights were cancelled into q Town on Thursday morning, so my plan coming down the night before paid off… Had a nice meal in Alexandra at the Red Brick… Lunch following day at Provisions in Arrowtown (awesome food and coffee…. Then across to Lumsden, outside of Gore into some Swede and Kale crops. Farmer got stuck in the paddock at 6 in the PM…

          • Don’t mention Lumsden. Makes Trav go all mistyeyed.

          • StacyMcNaught

            I go through there once a week, the Bafe’ is the place to get coffee for me now…also do huge Cream Doughnuts and they make their own pies.

          • Whafe

            Yep,stopped at Bafe, not bad coffee at all. And yes, can agree they do huge donuts, not that I had them, but they are huge

        • kehua

          HArd frost on the Kaipara this morning , good thing I covered the spuds last night.

        • Whafe

          Pete, I stayed at a hotel in Milton last night (not the Milton Hilton ;) ), was -3 this morning, then shot to st Claire for breakfast at a cafe, far milder….. Over all been a great week

    • Travis Poulson

      Hope you had a beer in my old haunts Winton and Lumsden for me.

    • kehua

      Love the rustic humour of our Southern cousins, heading south towards Clinton you can take the Bill Clinton Highway or go via the alternative route affectionately termed the `Monica Lewinsky Highway`. Love it.

      • Whafe

        Did both highways… Had a meeting in Balclutha Friday midday, (absolute shit coffee and food)’ then shot back to Gore via the President Highway…. But came on the Monica L Highway, well not literally…. Then back to Clinton for the Brassica comp do…. Again on the President Hihgway…

    • Hazards001

      Spent a century in Balclutha at Telford and another in Clinton at Slopedown.

  • rockape

    I think this has been a very interesting week. Not only has Gillard gone but there is a change afoot in NZ. It looks to me like the election run-up has started. I think to I detect Nationals target. Give the Greens and Labour nothing to attack ( they are focused on attack politics ) and come out with policies that have major appeal in the areas they are normally weaker in. Look at the last days;West Coast Mining, big spend creating jobs in the future in Christchurch and Auckland. What socialist in their right mind can effectively attack those policies. What is realy cleaver is the linking of asset sales,an area they were vulnerable in, to major projects and job creation. They are effectively giving the voter the choice; keep your assets or keep these projects and the jobs that go with them. A very effective slam dunk. The smart thin is to do this so far out. Labour produced their last minute bribes. National have done it with such timing that it will allow Labour and the Greens a year to destroy themselves on this bulwark of National policy.

    • johnbronkhorst

      The other smart thing they have done. re Auckland transport, the didn’t just do a helen clarke c2005 and claim labours policy as their own, they changed it and incorporated it into theirs. ie First comes the motorways then comes the rail LINK (not loop) then comes the harbour crossing. Meaning, National’s “roads of national significance” get built, then the expansion of Auckland’s rail (in about 3 years) the cross harbour tunnel (in about 17 years). Therefore making Auckland transport, entirely their idea!

      • johnbronkhorst

        Under labour/greens plan…the useless rail LOOP is built INSTEAD of the roading projects.

        • rockape

          And wait, there is more! The loop on its own was useless, but linked by tunnel to North Shore and to outlying parts of Auckland by good roads it starts to make sense.

          • johnbronkhorst

            I still believe, that included in these plans and “roads of national significance” , Should be the aim of having “spinal” motorway minimum of 4 lanes, From Auckland to Wellington and from the ferry terminal in the South Island (where ever it ends up being) to at least Dunedin.

          • Hazards001

            And a bridge in the middle too. Which is more than constructable and would open the country to genuine growth.

    • GazzW

      I loved the strategy of putting the alleged ‘leak’ out there early in the week regarding the building of the rail link. It set up Twyford beautifully to launch his attacks on the basis of a government backdown over rail. Then on Friday, the masterstroke with the announcement of a wide sweeping package of which the rail link is just one component. It has severely compromise Twyford’s credibility as an effective transport spokesman and effectively silenced Rudman and other lefty journalists who were naive enough to launch premature attacks.

  • rockape

    On a larger scale, Worldwide attacks on the Green policies and the failure of socialist policies are causing people to wake up. The cry for us on the Right should be; do we need socialism to care for the unemployed and poor? or, is socialism what creates the unemployed and the poor. Has socialism made every working man poorer by high dependancy policies and driven away work by its anti-employer stance. The worm has turned, the proof is in the UK, France ,Italy and Greece. Add to that the penalties of the huge intercountry bearocracies like the EU and UN. Maybe the worm has turned and its time for individuals and countries to stand on their own two feet.

    • Polish Pride

      what do you propose we have going forward………?

      • rockape

        A government and opposition who believe in people, our abilities and an end to government or opposition who believe they know best. I like a system where major descisions are put to the people . Not on the basis of yes or no. Burt on the basis of a debate around alternatives. eg if I was to ask if we want GST at 15% I would probably get a no vote. But were I to ask would you like GST at15% or health and education spending cut by 25% I would probably get a yes vote to GST at15%. A good example is asset sales. If the question is do you want assets sold, you would get a different answer to the question do you want assets sold to pay for X or do you want to borrow more to pay forX So the present system of government puting proposals on major decisions to a binding referendum.

        • Polish Pride

          Yeah I definitely like that way of thinking. only thing is I wish we would solutions look at solutions that are not ‘either or’ as well..

          • rockape

            Googble the Swiss system a government that involves puting proposals to the people and both National, regional government and the people all having a say on major issues. It seems to work OK, ideas that the people dont like go back for consultation and are often accepted next time round. Doesnt work for everything and works best with no external input via EU or UN rules.

  • When I hover the mouse over the upvote button, it no longer shows me who voted. Is it just me or can you confirm this feature disappeared for all of us?

    • johnbronkhorst

      Only sometimes and for me when there is only one up vote.

    • Travis Poulson

      Reload page, try again. Seems to sort it.

    • Just you pal

      • This day had to come.

        • Orange

          You’re special. You just didn’t know how special.

          • johnbronkhorst

            Careful…you’re starting sound like a creepy stalker!

          • Orange

            Just starting??

  • Pete George

    “And not even once did the debate degrade into personal attacks.”

    Yes, I’ve found this interesting. Comments can get gnarly here but there is a distinct lack of personal abuse. Robust debate for sure, but mostly it’s the issues that are thrashed, and not the messengers.

    This is quite a contrast to that other large right-ish forum, Kiwiblog. I like it and I use it a lot but there is an entrenched nastiness and personal vindictiveness there that is absent here, so bouquets for avoiding that and still allowing free speech without censorship.

    • Polish Pride

      Oh I don’t know I know how to attract plenty of personal attacks on here and have done so many times ;)

      • Muffin

        Wanker…..:)

  • Disqus now provides some analytics regarding comments and voting

  • I see the PC Brigade is out on Twitter this morning

    Ali Ikram ‏@AliIkram11m

    Can every school sports team, scout troop and community group stop selling chocolate for fundraising, please? #barthebars

    Hmmm. Of which just purchased a few bars this morning. Least the chocolate warms you up on a damned cold morning like this one

    • johnbronkhorst

      Or when they com round…give them money and return the chocolate. Afterall it is about fund raising, not diatery advice.

      • I wish I had that self control. I tend to see the home delivery of chocolate as divine guidance.

        • Hazards001

          Fuckers want to make some real coin ditch the chocolate and start flogging beer door to door around here…of course if you’re in Manukau then KFC will do the trick

          • Travis Poulson

            Not a half silly idea, I’d love to have beer delivered without having to go get it. Of course it’d only be acceptable if it was delivered chilled.

          • Hazards001

            Chilled and delivered by bikini clad chicks in daisy dukes. If we’re going for ridiculous fantasies we might as well go the whole hog and totally piss the fun police off as no way in hell will the teetotallers allow home delivery of alcohol.

            They’d like to stop home delivery of sex too but they haven’t got their pea brains around it yet…unsol in…5,4,3,2….

          • ThievingBastards

            For heavens sake, don’t summons the psychotic she-beast.

          • Bunswalla

            Go the whole hog? Why the hell do you want to bring Boss Hogg into it?

          • Hazards001

            LMFAO…I can honestly say I never saw the comment that way

            Lemme see … comment featuring hazards, daisy dukes,booze,police and hogs…yup…there could only be one conclusion…

    • Travis Poulson

      Best response would be:

      “how about you refrain from buying them, the rest of us can make up our own minds without having pricks like you force the decision upon us.”

    • GazzW

      Maybe Ali Ikram runs a corner dairy.

  • PlanetOrphan

    Something I’ve been pondering which is completely off base …

    Both the Efield and Space exist in a -ve time perspective because of Faster Than ?C? speeds..
    It’s an observation based on Gravitys’ effect over distance and electromagnetism over a distance. Which is instantaneous and therefore if it can affect matter over a distance instantaneously then the reaction is happening before the “event”. ie E and G are particles and they are moving away from the event, and they are moving backwards in time which explains the attractive sympathetic forces.

    The Efield perspective is easier to grasp it with, but Zero G space particles are the same.

    Matter obviously forms when we manage to slow those particles down.
    Nebulae “grow” in low pressure space think about that for a second.

    Don’t apply “spacial vectors” to time when you think about it and you’ll grasp it better.

    • Sponge

      Eh?

      • PlanetOrphan

        It explains Gravity and Electromagnetism and all other “Field” effects.

        • I think some of us needed a bit of an intro first.

          • PlanetOrphan

            Sorry, quantum physics is one of my hobbies.
            I was Debunking FTL misnomers on wired the other day

          • blokeintakapuna

            Quantum physics eh! Any chance you could programme my VRC please?

          • PlanetOrphan

            120 /hr ?

          • Bunswalla

            I can’t help you with your VCR until you learn that it’s not a VRC.

        • johnbronkhorst

          But is not a unifying theory.

          • PlanetOrphan

            True , sort of , It implies a ratio of speed, which from our observations of a still expanding universe is still increasing.
            The ohms law of particle field theory.

    • johnbronkhorst

      I see a couple of assumptions here:
      1. The field ‘E’ and ‘G’ are uniform and constant over time and space.
      2. These fields don’t interact with each other, only the sub particles and unit of energy that they interact with.

      • PlanetOrphan

        They do interact at a particle level if their speeds are with reach of each other (within the same T crossover boundary).
        The number of times an Efield or G field particle has crossed over this boundary defines it’s stored kinetic energy which is expressed as mass.
        With a -ve time trajectory the action reaction equation is reversed

    • Muffin

      Take it easy sheldon.

    • RightOfGenghis

      Damn it you’re a treasure PO! Don’t get yoself sucked into a black hole and finish up as a carbon emission..

      • PlanetOrphan

        Thanx, back @ ya bud :-)

    • cows4me

      I bet the speed of light can be broken but it’s theoretical, don’t ask me for the numbers I only got to school c maths.

      • PlanetOrphan

        I’m speculating that we wouldn’t have EM fields or Gravity if it couldn’t be broken.

  • Mediaan

    Jimmy Carter has been asking questions about why and how religions damage women. He is 88. Doesn’t stop him.

    Here is something I grabbed (in my current passive flypaper grabbing mode).

    AP stated that “The 88-year-old human rights activist [Jimmy Carter] said Friday that male religious leaders perpetuate misguided doctrines of male superiority, from the Catholic Church forbidding women from becoming priests to some African cultures mutilating the genitals of young girls.

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