Snowden runs before HK hands him over

Things were obviously getting a little bad for business so the HK government must have paid Edward Snowden a visit at his “safe house” that he thought they didn’t know about and had a chat about some discrepancy with the documentation, but that it was only a matter of time before the US provided “clarity” with that documentation.

They probably told him that there happened to be a spare seat on an Aeroflot flight to Russia that afternoon and they could perhaps arrange for a police escort to the airport to assist him with the annoyance that is transit, customs and immigration. It wouldn’t do for him to be spotted by some angry Americans, best they escort him nicely to the gate.

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden has flown out of Hong Kong, where he had been in hiding since identifying himself as the source of revelations on US surveillance programmes – despite a US request for his arrest.

The 30-year-old had previously said he would stay in the city and fight for his freedom in the courts. But the Hong Kong government confirmed that he left on Sunday, two days after the US announced it had charged him with espionage, saying documents filed by the US did not fully comply with legal requirements. It also said it was requesting clarification from Washington on Snowden’s claims that the US had hacked targets in the territory.

Snowden had been at a safe house since 10 June, when he checked out of his hotel after giving an interview to the Guardian outing himself as the source who leaked top secret documents.  

The irony is that Snowden thought mistakenly that Hong Kong was a safe haven…and bizarrely is running to Russia…where Putin, correct me if I’m wrong, used to be the head of the KGB.

Any fool who thinks that Mainland China doesn’t spy on everyone else in the world including their own citizens and foreign nationals everywhere is dreaming.

The press release issued by HKSAR was a real piece of work in what was not said rather than what was said.

Bottom line…Snowden was affecting business and had to go, I wonder what they would have done with a fat german who was stinking up the joint?

Our Kim Dotcom compliant media will no doubt spin this as Hon Kong flipping the bird at the US, when nothing could further from the truth. Hong Kong certainly wouldn’t be putting up with the same nonsense that we are putting up with.

This muppet didn’t make a fortune stealing movies and distributing with 7% of the world’s internet traffic…he stole secrets…government secrets. In China he’d be donating his corneas and his parents would have an invoice for the bullet.

At the end of this coming week is HKSAR Establishment Day of 1st July.  Nothing was going to overshadow that.

 


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  • Polish Pride

    And our govt is right now trying to take away more of our freedoms and right to privacy to move us closer to what Snowden has outed was going on in the US by changing the law to allow the GCSB to spy on kiwis and on what basis. What increased risk or event has occurred to justify this. Absolutely None!
    In fact the only thing that happened that is causing this is that the GCSB broke the law under John Keys oversight of it. It stinks and its wrong. Dead wrong!
    The other parties should be standing up and saying that that they will repeal any change to the GCSBs powers for the good and freedom of all Kiwis. Where is John Banks on this? I thought Act was supposed to be libertarian so he should be automatically opposed to such a change, But Nothing, No wonder Act is dead in the water.
    As for Snowden -This guy is a hero. Someone who actually understands who government is supposed to work for. – We the people. Its long past time politicians were reminded of this fact.

    • parorchestia

      Great post PP. We knew that China did its best to spy on the West, but without access to the root servers its efforts were probably minor in effect. But the US and now NZ – that’s a different story! Locked bag systems are very pernicious, especially since such systems allows the owners of the root servers to lie about the degree of infiltration. We are under serious threat of losing our civil liberties. The law takes a dim view of fishing expeditions, but could someone convince me that that is not what our government is now doing?

      You are right about John Banks – opportunists unprincipled fibber and cheat that he is.

    • Mr_Blobby

      Absolutely right PP.

      The joke is that nobody is allowed (illegal) to spy on themselves, so there friends do it for them. In our case all our internet and communications travels through the US.

      They say we need to give up our personal privacy for safety but at what cost, where is the cost/benefit for all this oversight. We will end up with neither.

      Now for those that think this is tin hat territory. Try a storage facility with 50,000 Billion Terabyte storage capacity, there are only 6 Billion people on the planet, and most don’t have access to the internet.

      Our Politicians are all compromised.

      Key is in there back pocket, see the Dotcom farce.
      Shearer has his US bank account??????
      Dunn is compromised, they have dirt on him, can’t tell you what is in the emails.
      Banks is for sale to whoever is paying. I know nothing about donations.

      Note all of them have been very silent on the issue.

    • andrew carrot

      It would be helpful if you spent a bit of time researching the difference between classic liberalism and libertarianism. I suspect John Banks is not the latter.

    • LinkinHawk

      Sounds like you have something to hide to me.

      • Polish Pride

        Sounds like you’d like something they would have said to someone who spoke out against the surveillance of citizens in Nazi Germany.

    • mike

      Rubbish.

      When the GCSB was set up it was intended to provide technical specialist support to the NZ Police and SIS… the law (written by Labour) was shit so didn’t include provisions to provide said support.

      National is merely fixing a broken law… and for good reasons.

      There are bad people in this world, and we should track this people, we should know who they speak to and when, we should be able to intercept their communications… because these bad people want to hurt us and our allies, and they want to destroy our way of life.

      If you think we live in a “benign strategic environment” you are wrong.

      • Polish Pride

        This is not my understanding of what the GCSB was set up for. If you have evidence to back up this statement please feel free to provide it for all to see. Otherwise my understanding is that it was set up to gather intelligence on persons of interest from overseas and was specifically and purposely prohibited from spying on New Zealand citizens.

        • Dion

          You’re splitting hairs. Police / SIS are allowed to spy on New Zealanders with the appropriate warrants – and always have been.

          Given that we have agencies able to spy on us already, why does it make a difference who physically does it?

          The morals of spying on citizens are certainly debatable – but duplicating the GCSB’s capabilities within other agencies would be a silly waste of taxpayer cash. Surely you’re not advocating for that?

          • Phil T Tipp

            Why does it make a difference who physically does it? For the same reason you stated in the first line of your post. Want to snoop? Go before a judge and get a fucking warrant. Checks and balances.

        • mike
          • Polish Pride

            Thanks for posting it. I don’t read that as being allowed to spie on New Zealanders. I don’t think the courts interpreted it as that either.

          • mike

            So providing support to other Government agencies doesn’t imply that the GCSB will actually provide that support????

  • johnbronkhorst

    Snowden is now hitching his cause to Assange’s sinking ship!

    • Mr_Blobby

      Maybe and maybe the ship is sinking, but these are brave individuals coming up against the most powerful nation in the World.

      Note Assange is an Australian citizen his own Government would throw him to the US in a heartbeat.

      It would make me very proud if our Government asserted our sovereignty and offered them sanctuary, but that won’t happen, we are to far compromised ourselves.,

      • johnbronkhorst

        Assange is hiding from SWEDEN’S police because of rape charges!!!

        • Mr_Blobby

          Is that why the UK Government is spending millions of pounds watching a foreign embassy who has granted him asylum.

          • SJ00

            They are watching the embassy because the rape charges came up first and the UK agreed to send him to Sweden. He decided to make it a political matter and a circus and claim asylum. If he is innocent, go prove it.

          • andrew carrot

            Yep. Check the EU Charter.

        • SJ00

          Exactly, he is too scared to fight that battle knowing full well he is a sexual pervert and rapist, so claims Sweden will send him to the US when he found “not guilty”… (he assumes he will be found not guilty but won’t go and prove that).
          Several women meanwhile have had no justice and are made to look like a sideshow to the great Assange. Disgusting.

          • bobby

            Even a moderate read of the circumstances surrounding the rape claims would make most people question their legitimacy. If a similar situation occurred in NZ the Herald would run front page items crying “witch-hunt” and police left, right and centre would be ducking for cover for showing extreme bias.

          • SJ00

            One needs to remember that what we know about the case about rape is from the media and to be honest, all I have heard is mostly from Assange’s side saying its all lies and bullshit and an excuse to extradite him. I wouldn’t trust them to tell the full story or a balanced story (he may well be innocent but he may well be guilty). The media isn’t the place to argue the case though.

            A magician is the master of distraction, watch me wave my hands here, whilst I do the switch over here. Assange and his crying reminds me of that, bleat on about the US and extradition to avoid having to face the real issue which is the rape cases (cases, not case).

          • Bunswalla

            From all I’ve read (from both sides) the rape accusations are what could be generously described as “trumped up”. The Swedish cognoscenti treated Assange like a rock-star and competed to display him at various events. The hostess of one event was very happy to have him stay and give her what she wanted, and only cried foul when she learned that a couple of days later he’d rooted another member of the circle. The second one then said that after consensual sex she asked him to stay the night; he did and in the morning slipped her one as a “good morning” and she said I didn’t want you to do that. Between the two of them they managed to concoct what appear to be ludicrous charges that are 100 miles away from rape.

            Assange may be paranoid about being subject to rendition as soon as he sets foot in Sweden (or outside the Ecuadorian Embassy), but given the UK’s determination to extradite him and Sweden’s insistence on charging him with an absolute bullshit case, I can’t say I blame him. One bit.

          • bobby

            Not to mention one of them stayed friends with Assange for a long time afterwards.

          • Ronnie Chow

            Absolutely correct .

        • Polish Pride

          Bullshit John he and his team are more than happy for him to be interrogated on UK soil and Sweden had the ability to do this for a long time prior to him going to the Equadorian embassy. They refused to do this. Why?

        • wikiriwhi

          irrelevant and trivialism

      • rockape

        Maybe your idea of coming up against and mine differ. He betrayed the most powerful country in the World. Drew a salary for long enough though. Secondly Assange, why would we want to give sanctuary to alledged Rapists. Is that that a good idea, should we extend it to all Criminals, do you want to make NZ the new Australia.:-)

        • Bunswalla

          It’s a long bow to say that “alledged Rapists” are “Criminals” – not sure why you think rapists and crims deserve to be listed in capitals. either.

          The key word is “alleged” and the charges are a long way from being proven.

          • rockape

            Well it has to remain alleged until he appears in court doesnt it. Like they guy caught sculking in a bog today. Its only alleged he beat an old lady. That may change when he stands trial. Are you suggesting Assange should be excused a trial.

        • Polish Pride

          The most powerful country in the world is betraying its citizens and ignoring the constitution on which the country was founded. It can easily be argued he is being patriotic by speaking out.
          (Snowden)

  • Mr_V4

    WhaleOil that staunch defender of the 2nd Ammendment, and complete sellout on the 4th.

    Must have attended a Green Taliban conference on how to be a hypocrite.

    • Mr_Blobby

      Yes a Whale puppet.

      When somebody reports a crime you don’t prosecute the complainant for reporting the crime, the question, in this case, is who do you report it to.

      The Hong Kong Government was right to question the paperwork, they asked for an explanation of the revelation that the US had been accessing servers in Hong Kong and spying on them.

  • Mr_V4

    I’ll also correct you because you are wrong, Putin was at best an LC in the KGB, not its head.

    Also this press release looks like a big FU to me.
    https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/348718404951228417/photo/1

  • Polish Pride

    Normally I don’t give a toss about downvotes on here in fact I often see them as a badge of honour for challenging peoples views. But on this particular topic it pisses me off that these cowards come on here and anonymously down vote comments that are about New Zealanders NOT having their freedoms taken away. I mean seriously who living in this country would want it to be less free? Who would benefit from greater surveillance and to that end who would be the type of idiot that would downvote such comments?

    The only ones I could actually come up with were National party MPs themselves. GCSB members wanting increased powers, SIS staff wanting to be able to have greater surveillance capabilities or Interests in the US administration. If its the last one then Whaleoil is far more popular than I think even Cameron had imagined.

    To those who did downvote the comments, why don’t you actually grow a pair and posting why you in your infinite think our government should take away the freedoms of people in this country.

    • Mr_Blobby

      Right again. But the Government didn’t take away our freedom, the US did that, our Governments, both National and Labor, stood by and let it happen.

      I say again our Polititians and media seem to be very quiet on this the silence is deafening.

      • Muffin

        The USA took our freedom? What an idiot.

        • Polish Pride

          I think we’d all be surprised if we found out the true level of influence the US has over our political system

      • mike

        Mr B… are you a conspiracy theorist? Because your comment comes awfully close to it.

    • SJ00

      The down voting system is anonymous by design (an option maybe? I think it can be turned on and off). And if you wanted to know who down voted you, I was one of them.

    • Mr_V4

      You are absolutely right, and note all the usual tough guys squealing for nanny state to guarantee safety, as if liberty can be traded for safety.

      So called conservatives on here are showing themselves for the big government advocates they are. Whale included.

    • mike

      I voted you down because your cries for freedom would quickly be turned to howls of outrage if something went wrong… case in point:

      Pre 9/11 the CIA cut the number of agents it had in the field collect HUMINT (Human Intelligence), recruiting foreign agents and getting info from them. Because of this, and low numbers of good analysts they missed intelligence that would of warned of the attacks. To sum it up: If they had had better intelligence gathering sources 9/11 would not of happened… the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq probably would not of happened… we wouldn’t of gone to war (we did lets not kid ourselves) and 10 Kiwi soldiers would not be dead.

      I like my privacy, but I have nothing to hide, and as I mentioned earlier there are bad people in the world who want to hurt us, so I am willing to sacrifice some freedoms to stop these people hurting my country again.

      • Polish Pride

        Then mike I suggest you take the time and listen to this pod cast so that you can better understand what the NSA surveillance has been used for and who they have targeted for surveillance. Then connect the dots as to why they would do this yourself.

        http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/

        • mike

          They spy… on everybody! Who cares? Everybody is spied on… I bet the NK and Chinese are right this minute monitoring or hacking everything they can.

          Where is the out roar of that?

          • Polish Pride

            It’s more than that. They tap into the emails and phone calls of Politicians and high court judges and the kinds of people that if you happen to get some dirt on them you can easily coerce them into doing what you want them to do. What other reason do you spy on high court judges and elected officials in secret.

        • rockape

          If you fill in a visa application, income tax return, or use your flyby card, information is being collected and used. Most people fear the taxman more than the Government, us law abiding citizens are just not that important to our spies.

      • Mr_V4
        • mike

          Not debunked… do you really think that if a Government knew this was going to happen that nothing would happen? All those NSA, FBI, CIA, bureaucrats, politicians and secretary’s would keep their mouths shut and let thousands of people die???

          That’s just stupid! That is why conspiracy theories don’t work, because people give Governments too much credit at being efficient and organised… they are not!

          • Mr_V4

            It’s not a ‘conspiracy’ in the way you are trying to portray and nor is that what I’m saying. The simple point is that the data was already available and the pieces were not put together.
            I can’t see how hoovering up even more data is going to help the cause.

          • mike

            Your version of events is a conspiracy theory, please refer to 1.15 in the following link:
            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories#Bush_allowed_9.2F11_to_happen

          • Mr_V4

            mike,

            I know this is difficult for you, but please get it into your head.

            I am not saying that “bush let it happen” or any such other conspiracy of the sort. I am simply saying that persons who committed the acts were subsequently found to have been identified at earlier dates by the intelligence community.
            It is no conspiracy it is simply a case of the information that intelligency agencies did have was not put together in such a way as to be able to act on it and in some regards probably wasn’t specific enough. This was not a deliberate oversight, more of an issue with trying to process and make meaning from a large volume of data.

            Go and read the official 911 report and the other congressional reports into the matter, that identified failings of the intelligence agencies.

            A more recent analogy is with the Boston bombings and the Russians having tipped of the USA on two reported ocassions. It’s no conspiracy that the bombings happened, but how can the US possibly act in a timely manner when they are collecting so much data to sift through. There are a reported 500,000 on some of the watchlists. Tell me how short of starting a Gestapo are you realistically going to keep tabs on that number of people?

            But hey much easier for your lazy arse to label someone a conspiracy theorist.

          • mike

            Now now, don’t resort to name calling… unless you know me don’t resort to that pettiness.

            Now apologise for being so rude!

          • Mr_V4

            Accusing someone of being a conspiracy theorist is name calling, and a massive strawman when that is not what is being argued.

          • mike

            Have you read my response to your “debunked”post… did you comprehend what I said? And I didn’t accuse you of anything… I insinuated it (big difference)

          • mike

            Boston bombing is a very bad example for you to use, as they were US citizens and as such were not allowed to be “spied” upon easily… if they had then the bombings may not of occurred.

          • Mr_V4

            Well why have them on a terrorist watch list, if people are not watched? Seems to me that this is the first thing that should be sorted before instituting a dragnet surveillance system against society more broadly.

          • mike

            So are you advocating a police state where LE can keep tabs on anyone who has been flagged due to suspicious activity?

            That’s everyone who has ever googled the Anarchists Cookbook… including me!!!

          • Mr_V4

            No, I think I have been pretty clear on that. But if you are going to have a ‘watch list’ then firstly make sure there are reasonable grounds for them being on it and secondly actually watch those people … instead of the rest of society.

          • mike

            “Why have them on a watch list if people are not watched” Sounds to me like you think they should of been watched 24/7 after the Russians said something…

            And surprisingly enough it’s usually the people who aren’t known to the intelligence services who are the most dangerous, because they have the potential to do the most damage.

      • Jonathan Pull

        Your not giving up “some freedom” your giving up a large amount of freedom.
        You can fly somewhere, but only because someone else lets you and you can talk to anyone you want but not without fear of someone else listening in, those are some pretty big freedoms to lose.
        When shit like this happens its just saying “were scared of the terrorists so we need to monitor EVERYONE” and the terrorists win. They instil terror and the US is showing that.

        • mike

          If you live in the West you have more freedoms than most people in the world.

          1) I fly because I pay a private company for the privilege.
          2) I talk to who ever I want… and I don’t fear anyone listening (if I did I wouldn’t use a phone).

          • Polish Pride

            If your so comfortable being spied on, theirs plenty of other countries to live in where they already do it, The UK, USA, North Korea, China. Just don’t turn this country into one. We don’t need it and I suspect most Kiwis don’t want it here.

          • mike

            Do you actually read the posts? Go back and re-read what I’ve already written.

    • unsol

      Apparently there is no valid reason to ask for downers to show their cowardly mugs…..well when it comes to issues that the masses are in favour of.

      But end of the day when it comes to issues of substance very little substance is put forward. It the thread just gets consumed with a string of innuendos, ad hominem attacks & utter bullshit.

      Disappointing – I thought most people on here were smart.

      As for me vs this topic – I know little about the topic, but I like what you & blobby et al have said. It makes sense & I cant see anything in the opposing side that validates their objections.

  • baw

    The Chinese must be pinching themselves.

    He has been a god send for them. Suddenly it takes focus of them for their internet controls and alegations that Hwawai is bugging their equipment.

    Now he will have to hope that Equator and the USA do not become best of friends.

    • Mediaan

      On the contrary, I imagine it was an embarrassment for China. It’s not the way they do things, too in-your-face for them.

      To determine the likelihood of Ecuador co-operating more with the USA, look up how many and what US multi-nationals operate there.

    • Dumrse

      The USA and the Equator are best of friends now. :~)

  • Mediaan

    John Banks has probably been busy. He must have had his usual work supplemented by the idiot court case about the supposedly only vaguely remembered donor that he did NOT give preferential decisions to.

    News now saying Snowden will depart Moscow where he has airport transit status at 2pm their time (10pm here), heading for Cuba and Ecuador.

    It is said he has applied for Ecuadorean refugee status. As the Ecuadorean Ambassador was at the airport, very involved, one assumes he has been accepted and that is where he will be residing.

    • SJ00

      Good luck to him, if he wants to live in Cuba or Ecuador for the rest of his life, thats what he has got. He’ll either be a cocoa bean grower, a tobacconist or the government of that country will use him to get all the information they can out of him and possibly set up their own systems or improve the ones they have for spying.

      • tarkwin

        Hope he likes bananas and banana republics – can he take Keith Locke along as a guide?

      • Mediaan

        Conceal oneself, develop a trusted network. Learn a new life as a South American. Be ready to adapt and maybe hide again.

        It’s what became of quite a lot of ex-SS Nazis immediately after the 2nd World War. Some moved on much later; some, one supposes are still there.

        • rockape

          Best he doesnt use the internet or phone if he wants to stay hidden!

      • Never in the dark…..

        He’ll still be looking over his shoulder at every step or two.

    • rockape

      I understand the cost of having a hit in that country is about $1000US. If you want to hide, hide in a country where life isnt so cheap.

      • Mediaan

        Astonishing statistic.

        • rockape

          Try Panama if you want real cheap!

    • andrew carrot

      Does Ecuador have ultra-fast broadband? If so, relocating there would be a better choice than, say, relocating to NZ. God, is Mega-Con an idiot or what?!

  • rockape

    Sometimes freedoms are sacrificed to keep our way of life safe. Conscription was a huge removal of a freedom, but without it we would be speaking Japanese and Europe would have a common language, German or Russian.
    Police have had snitches for a hundred years, people who spy on others and pass that information on to the police. Govements have had spies gathering intelligence on other countries and individuals for years. All that has happened is we have moved to an electronic age. If you dont like that its going to be tough. I suggest you give up your smart phone,your internet and electronic banking. That will make you much safer.
    If intelligence gathering by whatever means slows crime, stops terrorism and helps stop wars then I am all for it. PS didnt downvote,your entitled to your views.

    • Mr_V4

      I suggest you research the history of the United States, one of the reasons the 4th exists is because of the way the British used to use a general warrant on the colonists.

      Now what we have is essentially the US using a general warrant on the entire rest of the world.
      Where is your evidence for all of this making us ‘safer’, as far as I can see the US has been involved in wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Mali, Libya, Iraq and thats just the last 10 years.
      Of course now they are so bogged down in Afghanistan they are going to negoitiate with the Taliban who were the ones they were trying to oust in the first place.

      Oh an familiarise yourself with the words of Benjamin Franklin because you look to be a complete sellout.
      Making us safer …. yeah right!

      • rockape

        I suggest for evidence you look at some of the arrests and convictions of terrorists in London prior to the act. I suggest you look at conviction rates due to Face recognition and number plate recognition. As for evidence, where is yours that this electronic surveillance has been used to the detriment of private, law abiding citizens. You may gain the freedom from surveillance you also loose the protection that surveillance provides.

        • Mr_V4

          If you look into it you’ll find those suspects were identified by good old fashion policework. i.e. police get a warrant for a suspect and then monitor communications. (see link below)

          I have no problems with this.

          Hoovering up any and all communications I do have a problem with and so should anybody who desires to live in a free society.

          And the problem with having so much data is that you miss things because you can’t posssibly analyse it all. Hence we have cases of:
          a) Boston bombings, despite russia tipping of US authorities on no less than 2 occasions.
          b) Underwear bomber, gets on a plane despite the father seeking out the CIA to say he has serious concearns about his son.
          c) 911 terrorists, virtually all were known to the CIA prior to the event.

          It is incredible to me that you can’t see this and are so willing to sell out liberty for some illusory idea of safety.

          Here is one example:
          http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23436416/nyc-bomb-plot-details-settle-little-nsa-debate

          • rockape

            It is you that have illusions of liberty, I think you confuse the reality of privacy with freedom. I certainly support any tools that make my safety more secure in what is a dangerous World, I am prepared to sacrifice some privacy to achieve that. I am all for a DNA database, all for ID cards, all for video and electronic surveillance. I trust the police and Government to ensure my safety.

          • Mr_V4

            Incredible! Despite what has been fought for in two World Wars.
            So you support the use of those tools without probable cause?

            As for trusting the police, take it from a law professor. Worth a watch even if you can only see the first 7mins.

            And this will be next:
            http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html

      • mike

        And look at all the exceptions to the 4th amendment, basically all it protects is your private home and surrounds… everything else is up for grabs and this practice has been endorsed by the courts.

    • Polish Pride

      So at what point do you stand up against it. When they remove the right to a fair trial? When they can detain you indefinitely without charge? This is not the type of freedom and free country both my Grandfathers went to war to fight for.

      • rockape

        Do you not think the population of the uk, of the US was monitored in WW2. I seem to remember a lot uk UK and US citizens were locked up because of the colour of their skin ,or political beliefs. You live in a naive World.

        • Polish Pride

          No I live in New Zealand and we don’t do or need that shit here. It’s that simple.

          • rockape

            Maybe you would change your mind if we had to defend against a chinese invasion.

          • Polish Pride

            Unlikely. I understand the importance of freedom.

  • Anonymous Coward

    Eric “place” Holders(US Attorney General) determined pursuit of the Fat German with a criminal complaint in what is essentialy a civil matter is what emboldens those who wish to cock a snoot to the US.

    Look, thay will say, the US Justice System is subservient to big time businesses who are large campaign contibutors. It would not be justice to allow Mr Snowden to tried by the best judicial sytem that money can buy.

  • Anonymous Coward

    Is this how it went down;

    US: We spy on countries like Hong Kong but it is illegal for anyboby to tell you about this. There is someone in Hong Kong that has revealed that we are spying on you which is crime back here, so hand him over.

    Hong Kong: Scuse me.

    • And China never spies on anyone do they? Fuck some of you people live in cloud cuckoo land…of course you are all being spied on…live with it…or get a tin foil hat and go off grid

      • Mr_V4

        It is you that’s living in cloud cuckooland.

        What is your line of reason here? That because an authoritarian one party state spies on it’s citiziens and tries to spy on other nations, that it’s OK for western countries to spy on their own ctizens without probably cause?

      • Anonymouse Coward

        The United States should welcome being held to a higher standard than the Communist Chinese Government.

        The US is a nation of laws where the power of the state resides in the people. Its founding document and supreme law protects the people from unreasonable search and seizure unless by warrant supported by probable cause.

        This NSA metadata information scoop is an unconstitutional embarrassment to the people of a nation who had previously been able to hold themselves as a shining beacon of liberty.

        The Chinese Communist Party is an unelected dictatorship who justifies their grip on power by dictatorship of the proletariat bull.

        Actions of the Communist Chinese Government being used as an equivalent justification for US actions should make US citizens cringe.

      • unsol

        So what – that doesn’t mean that they should. It’s not like the spying prevents bad people from doing bad things is it? So is the loss of privacy worth it? It seems to me that everything is backwards – it’s privacy be damned when it comes to very personal stuff yet things like your details held by a local retailer are held on for dear life – God forbid you try & access a utility account in your spouse’s name. Just seems horse before cart stuff & for what – we can never be safe from militants. That is the nature of being a militant. You want to kill masses of people you will always find a way.

      • Polish Pride

        Doesn’t make it right and doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight against it. Let me put it in a context you will better understand. You trust a Labour/Green Govt in Charge of GCSB with increased powers to surveille New Zealanders and perhaps direct them on certain individuals they’d like them to do some spying on?

        I personally don’t trust any govt to act in the best interests of all kiwis. In the best interests of themselves and their own special interest groups sure and I don’t trust them to use the increased capability only as it should be intended for

  • peterwn

    If I was CEO of Hong Kong SAR, I too would want him out ASAP especially in light of what NZ and John Key have had to suffer with respect to Kim Dotcom. The Hong Kong authorities have made a wise pragmatic decision.

  • Hazards001

    This little snake in the grass is a traitor to his country just like that other bag of shit Bradley Manning. In a different era they would have been placed against a wall and shot. And if they were the Nationals of most the countries they have supported and/or are trying to run to in this ones case they would have been! Russia,Ecuador,China etcetera aren’t famous for their mercy!

    • If they were Chinese nationals and dogging on China, they’d be organ donors already

      • Hazards001

        zacery

      • Rangi

        So you support JK’s proposed increases of powers to the GCSB?

    • Polish Pride

      It can very easily be argued that both are patriots.

      • Hazards001

        By you it can. By me it cannot!

      • rockape

        Try arguing that were it counts, in a court of Law. If you are in a position of trust and betray that trust, especially when it affects your country detrimentally then the word is traitor.

        • Polish Pride

          When even the courts are starting to pander to corporates and special interest groups and make rulings that go against the constitution, There is something very wrong with the system. Then we find out that they have been phone tapping and spying on high court judges in America…..
          And you want this here? Try arguing it where it counts, in a court of Law- yeah sure if your guaranteed a fair trial. Is it a fair trial if the defence council don’t even get to look at the evidence…
          Their system is severely compromised on a number of levels.
          Ours doesn’t need to get any worse.

    • Jonathan Pull

      You see someone robbing someone else you tell the police.
      He knows the American government are ILLEGALLY spying on its own citizens, a massive and therefore a massively illegal undertaking and speaks up and hes a spy in the grass.

      If the law makers cant live up to the law why should the citizens.

      • rockape

        who says its illegal?

  • Rangi

    If some tosser wants to find out what I had for dinner, let the fucker. He could have the courtesy to ask me instead of bugging my phone & monitoring my computer. It’s these wankers who need foil hats, pretending the world is full of dangers & people of different religions & colours out to change their way of life. When they themselves have issues to clear up.

    Does anybody out there still believe a plane hit the Pentagon? Give yourself an uppercut.

    I choose an optimistic outlook, where trust in the citizenry is automatic until concern is sufficient no to. In our country, we are nowhere near paranoid enough to actually warrant the sort of bullshit proposed by JK – I didn’t see that coming when I voted him in!

  • Jonathan Pull

    It beggars belief really.

    All the wars, death and tragedies that have been fought to ensure freedom and some many people are willing to essentially say that what they fought and died for isn’t worth it anymore, they’re willing to throw it away when they get a little scared.

    You can’t and never will be 100% safe. If its not a terrorist it might be the person driving towards you with intent to hurt someone, heck you might cross the street and be run over.

    Why not cut to the point of it all and just microchip everyone so they can be monitored where ever they are what ever they are doing.

    Yeah I might be going to the extreme but its called “salami tactics”
    First its one freedom, then its another and so on until before you know it you’ve got no freedom all in the name of freed…..oh wait its gone.

    • Hazards001

      Oh do fuck off. You and people like you and PP would never be seen at the front line or anywhere near it. You’re like all the soft cocks since time immemorial sending others off to fight for you while you sit at home and protest about their brutality!

      • Jonathan Pull

        Id happily fight for the rights and freedoms that have been fought and won for us in the past unlike assholes like you who would just bend over and ask for more as they take them away.

        • Hazards001

          see my reply to V4 you pissant

          • unsol

            So have you ever shot anyone? Gone up close & blown someone’s head off? Ever seen a child’s body in a thousand pieces then had to pick those pieces up to see if bomb fragments remain so you can analyse them? Ever seen people all around you with traumatic amputations, half their heads missing? I’m don’t agree with war, but I accept that sometimes it has had to happen. I also respect the character & personal sacrifice of the guys that I know/knew in the army (one was killed last year) and I know for a fact that many of you guys who claim to be on par with them are nothing of the sort. Many of you are no doubt piss weak little sock-cocks who get to shout in loud voices behind the safety of a computer screen & if ever faced with the cold harsh realities of war you would wet your pants & cry for mummy. How’s that for speaking in your language? The point being you are in no position to judge a person’s ability to make the hard calls. You don’t know him. You have no idea what he is capable of. This is merely a blog & exchange of opinion.

          • rockape

            Have you or have you just watched to many documentaries on TV. Another armchair warrior I suspect.

          • unsol

            I am not an armchair warrior as I’m not the one claiming to be tough or that I am on par with soldiers who actually do go to war, who do see traumatic, tragedy & devastation that most people can never possibly comprehend. How do I know anything? I know plenty of soldiers & their wives. Half of my friends went into the military – males went mostly into the army & have been serving in East Timor & Afghanistan. One died.

        • unsol

          Nah don’t give him that – war is a sticky plaster. Creates more problems than it solves. Far better to engage ones brain so that war doesn’t happen in the first place.

          • Jonathan Pull

            It depends on why you fight. I will fight for true freedom etc but I would not fight for one mans greed which lets face it most recent wars has all been over one mans greed of corporate greed.

          • Hazards001

            All wars have been over that you numpty twit!

          • unsol

            ALL? No they haven’t.

          • Hazards001

            Which ones haven’t been?

          • unsol

            All. Freedom may have become the objective in the end, but it wasn’t the reason why any of the wars in history started.

          • Hazards001

            Every war since the beginning of time has been about land, territory, the accumulation of assets and power. I haven’t got time for this as I’d die of old age but what about that is not corporate greed?

            You think Attila the Hun would be a peasant today or a a corporate raider?
            Alexander The Great? Labourer or Billionaire?
            Cleopatra…she never started anything right? So I guess she’s be a receptionist in today’s world?
            All wars are what Jonathan Livingston Seagull calls corporate wars!

          • rockape

            Politicians try that and fail. Thats why young men have to go out and die.

      • Mr_V4

        As opposed to you sir, who I suppose has fought the Taliban for 12 years, only to see your govt now try to negotiate a ‘peace’ agreement with them?
        So how many of those front line people you laud will have died, or lost limbs for absolutely nothing.
        What is it they say about laying down with dogs …

        • Hazards001

          Nope, never fought the taliban or the vietnam war or any other war, but I was a solider for a short period of time, As was my father both my Grandfathers and my Great grandfather and my great great grandfather…plus Uncles cousins blah blah..i can’t be fucked…

          • Mr_V4

            Thanks for the family history, but it really doesn’t rebut the argument.

          • Hazards001

            What argument? You can’t have it both ways FFS. There are wars people die blab blab or you lose what you have? My statement stands. These guys are traitors to their country. They both knew what they signed up for. Took the money then decided it was against THEIR principles, I suppose you could go for the Hitler thing about now..the whatever principal it’s called but that would be lame.

            Mostly what I see is a bunch of anti American bullshit so far. You one of the anti American bullshitters too? Vietnam protester, no nukes, ban the warships, destroy ANZUS? Not that I give a toss.

          • unsol

            “they both knew what they signed up for. Took the money then decided it was against THEIR principles” – I don’t think it makes them traitors as from what I have read so far I agree with what they have done.

            But it does make them hypocrites.

          • Hazards001

            Suit yourself, I’m a man.

          • Hazards001

            And must say I haven’t had so much fun in ages…laffn..keep it coming peaceniks :)

          • unsol

            Suit yourself, I am woman :-)

          • Hazards001

            yuppers :D

          • Mr_V4

            It’s not anti-american to be for the US constitution as far as I can tell, unless we live in an Orwellian state where words lose their meaning. You need to learn the difference between patriotism and blind adherance to the state.

            It’s not even about the personalities either, you can rant all you like about whether he is a traitor or not, only history and time will judge.

            These are the key questions:
            http://mobile.nationaljournal.com/politics/why-i-don-t-care-about-edward-snowden-20130612

          • Hazards001

            I don’t give a toss what you believe in. I most certainly give a toss about what I do. My apology if I was unclear.

            “In the end, fear and politics likely will prevail, as it has in
            America’s past. Washington elites will close ranks to protect the Surveillance State, to trample out transparency and to mislead the public. Maybe we can talk first?”

            Read that, sounds like another lefty cry baby to me. No idea who or what he is or if that’s a blog or a editorial and don’t really care.

            He like the rest of America can talk with his vote.(although I’d imagine given the level of paranoia in the USA that it will be difficult for them to decide who their new enemy is? The democrat that kept the staus quo or the Republican that put it into play lmao)

            Personally as no one can take my freedoms from me I have nothing to fear.

          • Mr_V4

            “Personally as no one can take my freedoms from me I have nothing to fear.”
            LOL. The old nothing to fear line used by tyrants throughout time.

            Thats why you’re using your real name on the internet I suppose?

          • Polish Pride

            If you were a Soldier in the NZ army you would have been taught about the Geneva Convention. What Bradley Manning exposed was a war crime.

          • unsol

            So you were in the territorials? Got to play soldier as opposed to actually being one?

            Most people on here have family who faught in the WWs…but that doesn’t mean they are capable of doing the same. Completely irrelevant.

          • mike

            I was a real soldier… how long were you in for… what trade / rank?

          • rockape

            Peackeeping or real soldiering?

          • mike

            I served as a soldier in the NZ Army for the past 9 years. Did I ever shoot anyone? No. Did I want to? No (well sometime I felt like taking a rifle down to Defence House).

          • rockape

            So peacekeeping, why didnt you just say!

          • Polish Pride

            So Mike whats the super sensitive piece of equipment in the heavily guarded room in Tentham no ones allowed any electronic devices anywhere near?

          • unsol

            Doesn’t matter whether you have shot someone. I am guessing you would have seen far more than rockape will ever see in his life.

          • unsol

            That kind of statement is indicative of someone who knows little about what peacekeeping actually means.

          • Polish Pride

            I bet you were infantry

      • unsol

        “You and people like you and PP would never be seen at the front line or anywhere near it”

        Probably because they are the kind of people who have the intelligence to understand terms like ‘diplomacy’ and ‘exhaustion of all diplomatic channels’ means.

        They are the kind of guys that know how to engage their brain more than their cock = less chance of conflict escalation because of a testosterone generated cock fight. And no doubt they are also likely to have the intelligence that is accompanied by rare attributes like foresight – something most men lack – which allows people to think before they act & understand that actions have consequences.

        • Hazards001

          Good one. You keep thinking that unsol. Every solider I ever heard of would be bound to agree. I’m fucking tired of your so called womens lib horse shit. Fucking women have been at the forefront of EVERY conflict ever written about and have most definitely been at the forefront of every conflict I ever saw!

          • unsol

            whaaatever tough guy….see below you piss weak soft cock :-)

          • Hazards001

            “Edit: not an ad hominem…..just reminding Hazards of one of the first compliments he paid me!”

            I remember the one!

          • Jonathan Pull

            Please do explain how women were at the forefront of WW1 or WW2?
            I’m sure you’ll manage to concoct some bullshit story.

          • Hazards001

            Do you know the difference between forefront and frontline you fucking muppet?

          • rockape

            Maggie Thatcher, Golda Miere,Clinton Mrs,ER1, There havnt been many femail national leaders, but when there are they are tough cookies.

        • rockape

          You seem to forget that soldiers dont start wars, politicians do.

          • Mr_V4

            Exactly now we are getting somewhere, and how does that happen?

            Normally via very poor policies and a groupthink politik that refuses to listen or reason.

            Look at the US Congress/Senate, so many of them, particularly the influencial ones are in their 70’s and even 80’s. Half of them still probably see Viet Cong behind every bush (the garden variety).

            I’m no fan of community organiser Obama, but if McCain had got in in 2008 there would probably be 6 groundwars going on by now.

          • unsol

            Hence why I said that history tells us that men are failing to engage their brains and instead are resorting to nothing more than a cock fight which of course escalates = war.

            Past leaders have failed to communicate, failed to understand what diplomacy is & failed to exhaust all diplomatic channels before reaching for the armoury.

            They have been using the escalation of conflict as a first response, not last.

            None of these wars have been about the preservation of freedom but they certainly became about that by the time the pollies had finished.

          • unsol

            I have not said or implied anything of the sort.

      • Polish Pride

        Done your time in the Armed Forces Hazards? I have. So fuck off. Hope you tell your kids they don’t really need their freedoms. You’d do well toing the line in North Korea or China.

  • GregM

    A whole lot of people seem to be forgetting this guy is a TRAITOR. If you don’t like the law, work to get it changed, don’t just break it. I did 22 yrs with NZDF, I have no sympathy for him at all.

    • Polish Pride

      How do you change a law no one is supposed to know anything about. Not even most of congress, the law makers themselves. If only we lived in a perfect world….

      • GregM

        Absolutely agree, that’s why men like him are the only ones that can change the laws, or bring it to public attention, within the legal framework. I left the military 18 months ago, there has been a shitload of secrecy / confidentiality I am still bound by.

        • Polish Pride

          there has been a shitload of secrecy / confidentiality I am still bound by.
          Such as……… :)

        • Mr_V4

          Secrecy and confidentiality is one thing, and indeed some is needed, however at what point does it become illegal?

          I would say when it appears to violate the US Constitution, and you have directors of the NSA providing “the least untruthful answer” to legislators who are supposed to be the programs over-seers. How is that itself not perjury?

          Indeed the Obama administration has repeatedly blocked court cases to test the constituionality of the fisa court related to survellience.If it was so above board you would allow it to be tested in court.

          • GregM

            My main problem with this one is where does it say US security seems to have priority over the laws of other sovereign states. I just think he went about it the wrong way. Also, you can’t “test” security procedures in court, as then they are no longer secret.
            I agree, this guy has raised very valid concerns, I don’t agree with the way he has gone about it.

          • Mr_V4

            How else would he have gone about it?

            Particularly in an administration with this sort of programme:
            http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html

            You can test that proceedures to ensure warrants are obtained when required and that something is not a massive dragnet on innocent people going about their lives.

            Justice not only has to be done, but be seen to be done.

          • GregM

            Disagree mate, certain matters of national security need to be kept secret. Did he contact his local MP and raise the genuine issues with him / her ?

          • Mr_V4

            And who decides what those “certain matters are”, the security agencies themselves? No there must be effective legislative oversight. No agency answerable to the people should be above the law, and certainly not above the constitution.

            There seems to be a conflict between politicians who are saying “we should have a debate”, while at the same time trying to persecute the whistleblower.
            It is interesting that this is the 8th guy to be charged with espionage by Obama administration, there had only been 3 people charged previously under all other US Presidents combined. What is the trend here …

    • Jonathan Pull

      I can understand why you see him the way you do and by the legal definition he is indeed a traitor BUT where there any other avenues open to him?
      As Mr_V4 highlighted below, the Obama administration has blocked court cases to test legitimacy of certain actions so had he raised the issue it would probably have been ignored.

      It was an extreme action, one that on the balance (he is an educated person, not some muppet who accidentally came into the info) he felt this was his best course of action given the possible response from his government had he told them.

  • Baz63

    I love reading your columns but sense an underlying hatered towards Kim.com every time an internet issue is raised. The way you always go on about .com as some fat German or fat this or that so I looked up your image on Google and see you yourself are a fat bastard if their image of you is anything to go by….why so nasty…does glass houses ring a bell….love him or hate him what happened to him and in particular the raid and BS charges have opened very good debate in NZ.

    Otherwise great blog.

  • wikiriwhi

    Snowden is an absolute hero standing shoulder to shoulder with Julian Assange and Bradley Manning

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