GCSB hysteria

A few days ago I published a reader’s email in a post titled “Let’s not replace a nanny stated with a police state“.   Whaleoil readers took David to task in the comments, and he’s asked for another go.  As this email was CCed to many other people, including members of Parliament, his name won’t be withheld for this post.

via truth-media.info/

via truth-media.info/

The article here was to make people think, I included the 99% comment towards the end of the article to be provocative, and it got that response, allowing people to be dismissive, suggest I should keep wearing my foil hat. My response;

I don’t know what your perception regarding the 99% label is, and you didn’t bother to seek mine. This dismissal simply made you feel safe, confirmed you are right. I would suggest that perhaps you believe it means drop-out, loser, dope smoking hippie, or perhaps lowly paid care giver earning $12 per hour, soon to be wiping your ass, or lefty, labour supporter, conspiracy theorist etc.

We all perceive the world through our own ‘Lens’. This is haphazardly constructed by our environment and upbringing, experiences we are exposed to, we learned (self taught) it. From this we form our own beliefs or truisms about ourselves, our own individual identity. I am this or that, along with your own world view. Then we seek to reinforce this belief of self and me, if there is self there must be others. What you believe must be reality, right? Certainly it’s your reality, the media for a great many is extremely influential here in forming beliefs.


The word lens above can be substituted with Ego.

The Egoic self is against all others, promoting separation, judgment, labeling. This is the problem.

Repeating the same mistake of the Egoic self over and over, many consider this the definition of insanity!

IF you removed the Ego from the equation then we are all the same, all one.

Sadly you can witness these Ego’s in our Government’s debating chamber, failing to hear any competing narrative?

Sad and concerning because this is counterproductive to good governance.

Logical Conclusion

Our Egoic Government is insane

So who are the 99%? Obviously the majority including you, a more pertinent obvious question is who is the 1%?

Aliens? Foil hats? No.

The 1% , these are the people with Ego’s so inflated, who have made the insatiable lust for more whether it be for money or power or both their identification. These people threaten the existence of the other 99%. There are many examples of this most will recognize.

Concerning the GCSB, it’s not a question of fixing existing laws as to when we can legally be spied on.

It is an opportunity to explore with calm rational debate whether this is the way New Zealanders want to live; through fear do we want to suffer the consequences of the threat of constant surveillance. This is a radical change to our society, one that deserves discussion.

David Croucher

 


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Tagged:
  • John Q Public

    That’s just the issue. The “threat” of “constant surveillance”? Really? 200 people at the GSB listening to 4 million people’s phone conversations every day?. Riiiiight.

    • andrew carrot

      Pffft, the GCSB. Now, if it were the IRD we were talking about I’d be packing my trousers!

      • Polish Pride

        If you knew what the IRD were doing right now with their systems and what they are gearing up for you may very well be packing your trousers.

    • cows4me

      Come now John, the systems in place now don’t have legions of ladies in stockings listing to the gossip coming over the switchboard. It’s all done by computers that listen for certain words like , bomb, c4, missile, and phrases like blow the arseholes to bits, or assassinate the clown. We even have our own home grown company that has developed software that can link millions of emails and predict a crime or red flag on going wrongdoing.

      • So. What.

        • cows4me

          John was making reference to the threat of constant surveillance and how this would not be possible. Of course it’s possible and the surveillance of 4 million people would be easy peasy, if one so wished. You know full well these systems exist, the only thing preventing their use is the current disposition of our overloads. To say it can’t happen, well it has and no amount of soothing words from our fearless leaders can guarantee it won’t happen again.

          • johnbronkhorst

            The Nazi’s tried it…found there was too much info to keep track of and it was counter productive. The problem is worse now not better. There are more people and way more systems and communications methods to track. So it is STILL a case of identifying who to track and then track them. NOT track everyone.
            The trick to finding a needle in a haystack is as simple as a magnet.
            But they are trying to track a specific needle in a stack of needles.

          • Polish Pride

            The fact that it was a path the Nazis went down ought to be telling you something and setting off some alarm bells

          • mike

            The Gestapo relied on people narking on anarchists, rebels, criminals, and other unwanted elements of their society.

            The vast majority of German society appears to have happily gone along with this programme… there was very little if any electronic surveillance.

          • Polish Pride

            What evidence are you basing the last part on?

          • David

            History

          • mike

            Because it worked.

          • Mr_Blobby

            Yes there are many more forms of communication available today but also, with the help of super computers and massive storage facilities, it is easier to collect all the data on everybody and store it.

            Once you have a target you can then specifically target them and all there associates.

            The problem comes when you have a large number of people 10,s of thousands who have access to that information, who can access it with or without proper authorization.

            For example any Police officer, court officers, customs, etc etc etc can access all information on you from there data base, this does happen without proper authorization and you would be naive to believe that it is always for work reasons.

          • cows4me

            Oh dear John, the Nazi’s didn’t have computers so they were probably disadvantaged somewhat. Besides the needle would seem to be pretty easy to find given the software developed by this NZ firm. I think the issue is not so much the eavesdropping but the collection of metadata and storing this over many years. Of course many will have nothing to hide……….I wonder.

          • Ratchet

            I think you’ll find that the 3rd Reich were one of the pioneers of early “computerised” data collection and storage systems – All provided by the IBM corporation. They were supplied hundreds of machines since well before the war so they could record and collate information on their citizens.

          • Chiefsfan73

            I invoke godwits law

      • Steve (North Shore)

        c4 ? you are c4? your psuedo gives it away.
        Do you know ‘black bear’ and ‘thirteen uncle’?

        • cows4me

          No, but I’ve heard of Yogi but unfortunately I don’t have thirteen uncles. So I’m probably not much help, sorry.

  • John Q Public

    *GCSB*

    • Gold Coast Savings Bank

      • David

        Probably should have read the article

  • Jman

    So let me see if I get this straight:

    Step 1: Write a lengthy piece of garbage scaremongering about government surveillance, mentioning all the leftist talking-points like Dotcom, Snowden and the GCSB bill.

    Step 2: Deliberately insert the “99%” figure in there knowing it will provoke a
    right-wing audience seeing as it’s a slogan taken right from the Occupy
    Wall Street crowd,

    Step 2: Snootily berate said audience from making assumptions about you being a dope-smoking dropout when you are really a highly credentialed being of superior intellect who is only trying to get us knuckle-dragging troglodytes to understand the real world.

    My advice, if you’re looking for an audience to buy what you’re selling, you’re looking in the wrong place here.

    • Polish Pride

      So much for the Right being about less government intrusion in our lives…

      • kehua

        Better the Government I elect than Mohammed.

        • David

          His name is Obama, also a puppet

        • Polish Pride

          WTF!?!

    • David

      Because you disagree? There is no scaremongering, Care was taken not to berate anyone for having a opposing view. Fact is it is there to read, first objective. Second was to motivate people from their apathy and invoke discussion. Why bother preaching to the converted?

      • Polish Pride

        Most are too stupid to get it David and only will when things have gone way too far. The problem is that for them as things stand right now. There is no pain point for them and if you want people to change you have to activate a pain point. (consulting 101). The problem is that with the way the system is designed most are too busy either trying to get by, to get ahead or to stay ahead to think much outside their existing box and look at things such as unintended consequences or the bigger reasons (not the ones the govt is feeding us) as to why there is an increasing focus on this around the world.

        • David

          Yes, this comes from a belief that things can’t get any worse, can they?

        • mike

          Why do you come here?

          • Polish Pride

            To add intelligence into the debate.

          • mike

            ROTFLMAO!

            You’re a bloody comedian… now I know why you come here, you are the comic relief.

          • Polish Pride

            Come on mike, you’ve gotta admit that was a good come back ;)

          • mike

            PP, to be honest I have not yet heard you contribute anything worthy to any discussion on this site.

            I am open to reasoned debate. I am not a fanboy of JK or National, I am a swing voter and support the party that I believe will benefit the country (and my family) the most.

            If you disagree with National’s policies fine, but when you come here to debate them then come with real arguments and facts, not hearsay and rhetoric.

          • Polish Pride

            Just for you mike

            Lets just conveniently forget about the fact that the most well known and publicized thing that the GCSB has been used for to date is copywrite infringement. Don’t bother to ask yourself if they are prepared to bring in the spooks for something as low level as that, whats next?
            Add to that that this is what you got when National was in power. What will the GCSB be used for when Labour is back in !?!

            In case you missed it

            Fact:the most well known and publicized thing that the GCSB has been used for to date is copywrite infringement. but all
            You might be a swing voter but from your posts all I see is someone with far too much trust and faith in govt. When the narrative being given doesn’t match what has happened historically, that alone is enough to ask a lot of questions.
            I spell this part out for you. Govt narrative: its for terrorism. History: it was used for copywrite infringement.
            When you add to that the GCSB broke the law and this is why it is now being changed, well at that point it would very foolish not to ask questions when one of your basic fundamental rights is being threatened.
            If that is not contribution of something worthy then I would suspect that your definition of worthy contribution is simply limited to someone who agrees with you.

          • mike

            I trust politicians to look out for their own interests first… I question a lot of what government does. I used to be a soldier so I know first hand how inefficient and illogical a lot of what comes out of Wellington is.

            The narrative fits the geopolitical landscape that exists globally… this may be a national bill, but it is a global issue. As a member of the global community we must ensure that we contribute to the global efforts of combating crime and terrorism. GCSB contributes greatly to that aim.

            And the claim that GCSB broke the law is not quite true, otherwise we would see another 88 cases before the courts for illegal spying… which we do not.

            My basic fundamental privilege (remember we covered this before, our rights are nothing more than privileges) of privacy is ensured so long as I do not break the law or consort with those who break the law.

          • Polish Pride

            Mike believe it or not I do understand and respect your position on this. I’d even go further and say I think your argument is a very valid one.
            If the legislation were only going to be used for the things YOU say it is (which is actually the narrative coming from Government). I’d probably actually be fine with it.
            Because of my experiences with Government and Government departments. These are the last groups that I would trust with such power. I simply don’t trust that it will not be subverted and used for their own ends such as the silence of dissent and that is unacceptable. I would go so far as to say that I think this is the real reason they want this legislation.
            If however there was clear definition of terrorism and terrorists of the type you are saying is a threat and the GCSB could target them only, Then I would be for the legislation.
            So in summary I agree with your reasons for it.
            My not wanting it is that I don’t trust Government to only use it for that.

          • mike

            The issue is not the legislation then. The issue is the people we elect into Government.

            I believe that the vast majority of civil servants do their duties dutifully and with great care. There will always be one or two numpties who fuck it up… but you can’t really condemn everyone and everything just because there is a chance something could be unjustly used.

            Besides if it came to that none of us would be in any position to comment about it and complain… I would put it to you that if your dysotopian view came to pass all of us on this site would be the first targeted and made to disappear.

          • Polish Pride

            Yes I would agree with all of your points there.
            I think that others such as Blobby and David, Cows are essentially coming at this from the same angle I am. In that it is not the legislation itself. It is how it will be used by Government.

      • FredFrog

        David, if you define the 1% as having overinflated egos, then you are part of the 1%, not part of the 99%.

        • David

          For promoting dialogue, yes thanks

        • Polish Pride

          Based on what exactly Fred? Enlighten us.

          • FredFrog

            Read David’s long, egotistical waffle. Then read David’s previous long egotistical waffle. There, you’re enlightened. Good feeling, isn’t it?

          • Polish Pride

            Grab a dictionary.
            Look up the meaning of the word egotistical.
            Then read his comments again.
            This is what the enlightenment you have bestowed upon me has shown me you need to do.

          • FredFrog

            I already understand the meaning of the word. David’s waffle clearly shows he falls under the definition. So does yours.

          • Polish Pride

            you forgot to add based on your opinion.

      • Jman

        No scaremongering huh?

        These people threaten the existence of the other 99%.

        Give me a freaking break, seriously.

        Yes I disagree with most of what you say. I actually think you don’t know anything at all about the 1% of which you write – you show no insight at all into what motivates people to get into positions of influence or great wealth. I’ll give you one clue, it seldom has anything to do with them wanting to threaten the existence of the rest of society.

        • David

          So that proportion of the 1% wouldn’t be part of the problem then, would they?. Human nature is very complex, altruistic people we are short of. power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

          • mike

            Does that mean that I’m part of the 1% because I support this bill?

          • David

            Is this a serious question?

          • mike

            Well please enlighten me David… am I part of the 99% or part of the 1%. How do I know where I stand..

            If I’m part of the 99% why do I support this bill?

            If I’m part of the 1% why am I not filthy rich?

          • David

            Supporting the bill is your personal choice, as it should be. The 99% label refers to the general population who stand against corruption. In the 99% there will be many people of wealth of course who also take this stand. Money is relevant if it coerces, by those who would choose to use it this way.

          • mike

            Well I am against corruption… but again I ask where do I fit in your scale? Am I still part of your 99%… can you clarify the issue for me and detail who in fact the 99% is, or more correctly who is the 1%.

          • David

            The 99% are the people who when presented with ALL the facts, facts that is, apply logic, reason, reach a consensus that benefits the whole. The 1% are those that would attempt to frustrate this by whatever means. Be it obfuscation, manipulation or withholding information, manufactured truths, coercion by special interest groups influencing electoral outcomes for gain. Controlling the media narrative, removing opposing narratives etc. You choose!

          • mike

            Well I use logic and reason to determine an opinion which is backed by reasonable (not hearsay or circumstantial) evidence.

            And by your own definition you appear to be part of the 1%, manufacturing truths and manipulating people to get a “reaction”. Oops.

          • David

            Oops, You mean encouraging dialogue on something that will affect all Nz’ers. Evidence, you mean it won’t effect all NZ, Discussion to reach a conclusion that benefits the majority, yes I see your logic. The 1%, your pigeonholing is the evidence only of a closed mind, good luck with that

          • mike

            Dialogue is a two way street… and I don’t mean just between you PP and Mr B!

            I will gladly listen to someone espousing their point of view, if I disagree with it then I will express my opinion… and if their argument is compelling enough I may accept their view as accurate.

            You have not yet provided that compelling argument against the GCSB bill, nor has PP or Mr B… and neither has the opposition of media. The mere fact that you and your ilk have resorted to scare mongering shows your argument as weak and not based in any form of fact.

            Also the fact you are unwilling to listen to contrary evidence, without casting those who dare to do so as lackeys or mindless drones, shows you to be the one with a closed mind.

            I await with anticipation a well thought out debate based on facts and reason from opponents of this bill, but sadly I feel that will not be forthcoming.

          • David

            ” I feel that will not be forthcoming” i.e. you’ve already made your mind up. My Ilk? (Ego, separation), lack of tolerance, this is the problem. I don’t need you to accept my premise, by evidence I presume you mean prism, xkeyscore etc, GCSB bill aligning us with this? Making Snowdon, Manning criminals for speaking the truth. Dotcom being deemed a terrorist because of allegedly copy right infringements, power not being abused. Yes I see why you dismiss my ramblings, thanks

          • mike

            Prism gives the intelligence agencies the ability to do something… doesn’t mean they are doing something.

            Ditto with xkeyscore… ditto with echelon…

            Snowdon set out to steal confidential information. He is a criminal.

            Manning illegally accessed and divulged information to unauthorized people. He is a criminal.

            Dotcom is merely the newest iteration of illegal file sharing sites. He is a criminal.

            And my full statement was “sadly I feel that will not be forthcoming.” meaning I do want that debate… but all we get is rhetoric and paranoid ramblings.

          • Polish Pride

            not a good argument mike. Based on the highest law in the land the US constitution they were not criminals. In fact they were outing criminal activity in both cases. Remember that at the time the spying had not even been approved by a key part of US government – Congress. For this reason it can easily be argued that they were both wistleblowers.
            The other thing is that not all laws are just laws. eg. Aparthied in South Africa or similar historical segregation laws in the USA.
            If your wondering how they are applicable. Well all scenarios deal with Human Rights.

          • David

            Paranoid “is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear. I’m not frightened nor anxious. Evidence being Dotcom is a criminal, seems the trial is a waste of money then? you already know! Seems Prism and xkeyscore would be a gross waste of money if they are not going to do anything with it, doesn’t it? Snowdon at great personal cost felt compelled to reveal legal abuse of citizens rights to privacy, and the lack of controls allowing for abuse of power, Manning showed also at great personal cost that when you are in a position of power it is easy to be seduced into abusing that power to cover up what others would feel gross crimes against humanity. Don’t worry Mike many people who feel motivated to post here have a similar view to yours, so you can feel safe. Others such as my self, also many, question the direction this is taking us in.

          • David

            The 99% are
            the people who when presented with ALL the facts, facts that is, apply logic,
            reason, reach a consensus that benefits the whole. The 1% are those that would
            attempt to frustrate this by whatever means. Be it obfuscation, manipulation or
            withholding information, manufactured truths, coercion by special interest
            groups influencing electoral outcomes for gain. Controlling the media
            narrative, removing opposing narratives etc. You choose!

          • Jman

            If you think 99% of people use logic and reason when presented with facts you’re even more deluded than I initially suspected.

          • David

            Yes, you have just confirmed this

        • David

          For your amusement

        • David

          The 99% are
          the people who when presented with ALL the facts, facts that is, apply logic,
          reason, reach a consensus that benefits the whole. The 1% are those that would
          attempt to frustrate this by whatever means. Be it obfuscation, manipulation or
          withholding information, manufactured truths, coercion by special interest
          groups influencing electoral outcomes for gain. Controlling the media
          narrative, removing opposing narratives etc. You choose!

          §

          • Bunswalla

            Sorry, I still didn’t get it after 3 identical explanations. Could you try another identical explanation please?

          • David

            I added a further example. might help you.

            A further example Mike, Buns, might be an individual who blindly follows a political alliance without any critical thinking. Like Adolf.
            I trust this gives you some clarity as to your ‘fit’ My apologies for not being clear.

          • Bunswalla

            Bit late for that. If you ever had a point with your first post, and I think I understood what that was, all you’ve done today/nite is reinforce that you’re a long-winded tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist with delusions of intellectual superiority and a strong busy-body gene.

            Sorry there’s no question in there.

          • David

            You have confirmed a lack of being able to add anything constructive, reverting to name calling, maybe to cover an inferiority complex. Sorry I have made you feel like that.

          • Bunswalla

            Sorry you feel the need to apologise all the time. So very sorry.

          • David

            O.K accepted

          • Bunswalla

            You’re welcome :-)

          • mike

            I believe you compared him with Adolf… pot kettle maybe?

          • David

            Give me strength, A further example (from the prior definition) MIGHT be etc. No comparison to Mike, Buns or anyone else was implied nor intended, Godwin’s law, Adolf etc simply seems to hold some truth because as a label it is a good example of Human unchecked excess and the dangers it presents.
            Murphy’s law might be worth some consideration too!

          • mike

            Perhaps you should watch what you write in order to remove such easily misconstrued statements then.

          • David

            Thanks Mike, I will read your posts three times,, rather than just the two, to make sure I don’t misconstrue your contributions.

          • mike

            Sarcasm will get you nowhere.

          • David

            True dat

          • 4077th

            BOOM…there it is Godwins Law!

          • David

            It wasn’t a comparison it was an example to highlight the point that blind faith is potentially very dangerous, not to mention lazy. Thanks

          • mike

            Stop your triple posting crap… please.

      • David

        Another example of the real world Jman

        In earlier reports, we focussed on the operation of two undercover British SAS operatives, dressed in traditonal Arab clothing, who were planning to set of bombs in the main square in Basra, coinciding with a religous event.

        They were arrested by Iraqi police and subsequently “liberated” by British forces in a major military assault, directed against the Iraqi police authorities with tanks and armed cars.

        (See Were British Special Forces Soldiers Planting Bombs in Basra? by Michael Keefer, See alsoBritish “Undercover Soldiers” Caught driving Booby Trapped Car)

        The matter of what the SAS operatives were doing was hushed up.

        • Jman

          Going off at a complete tangent by bringing up a story from over a decade ago of which the details are sketchy and none of the allegations you mention have been proven – not the best way to argue your case.

          • David

            You mean legally? Or reported in our media? Or highlighting the problem a lack of an opposing narrative presents Or that is was sooo long ago? Yup irrelevant. See the ‘truth is tricky when you only have what others would want you to know

        • mike

          Evidence please

  • PlanetOrphan

    At the risk of repeating my self (And doing the opposition/medias jobs for them) I’ll add my summarised responses to David Here as well…

    1. The debate should be about documentation and
    accountability/responsibility, the boundaries of each department and how
    they liase with each other during an investigation.

    2. If the system is abused what checks and balances are there for fair and just outcome ?

    3. How many Media outlets/people are going to role over and play dead if they are investigated ?

    4. Would a terrorist go running to the media in outrage because their “privacy” has been breached ?

    5. If the GCSB bill passes will Nzers will be safer ?

    6. Will the people on the ground doing the policing be able to follow through on an investigation and get effective results ?

    • David

      The problem regarding this extension of surveillance, that
      extension being; that the NZ government can at their whim look at any bodies
      data in NZ, it deems to be a threat. Is it’s a small step to subvert this
      process. Is the threat to NZ? Or can it be deemed a threat that someone who
      challenges the government’s position is a threat? Under the guise that it
      threatens stability? That threat is to democracy, isn’t it? Do we need this at
      all? If so then who watches the watchmen? Surely any oversight must include
      individuals other than self serving politicians, someone from the judiciary,
      surely? This is not about political affiliations, equally nor is it about
      journos, many whom you would have to use the terminology very loosely, game
      show host might be more appropriate, foisting their own opinions on us and
      passing it off as news. Politicians and Journos here are complicit in protecting
      their own positions; it is a symbiotic relationship of self serving sycophantic
      interests, never mind selling out NZ’ers. This is our own patriot act, please!
      Is the world safer with all this monitoring? Says who? Is the US a democracy?
      Corrupted by special interest groups, corporate’s? How’s their economy? Anybody
      asked the man on the street, do you feel safe? Is this what we want?
      Maybe I’m crediting Key with to many smarts and it’s just a case of him brown
      nosing the Yanks? Problem is the result is the same. How about you journos do
      you job, show some integrity instead of ‘I’m in jack, pull the ladder up’

      • johnbronkhorst

        If, maybe possibly, perhaps……Any other tin foil hat words you would like to use??To add to your above statement?
        Fact, there are and always have been people and organisations that would harm NZ. That harm, can take the form of physical, financial, economic or cyber attack! It could even be something we have not thought of yet! After all, nobody thought someone would hijack planes and fly them into buildings in New York.
        That said, we NEED to protect ourselves!! Then come the question….HOW???…Answer at the moment…GCSB!!!

        • [_]3

          The phone surveillance did not stop Sept 11 nor the Boston bombings. The phone taps could probably help criminally indict the investment bankers who brought about the Global Economic Crisis.

          • johnbronkhorst

            No but it stopped the NY bomber in his SUV. It caught the underwear bomber. etc etc etc

          • Polish Pride

            This aint the good ol US of A John. Maybe they need it. We don’t.

          • Lou

            Guess you are living under a rock then.

          • Polish Pride

            Based on the massive amounts of terrorism we face every day I assume Lou. A little paranoid aren’t you?
            The biggest threat to our way of life has and always will be from our very own Government.

          • mike

            Bollocks… I don’t see our Government (or any western one) sending suicide bombers out to crowded market places.

          • David

            Like this you mean?

            In earlier reports, we focussed on the operation of two undercover British SAS operatives, dressed in traditonal Arab clothing, who were planning to set of bombs in the main square in Basra, coinciding with a religous event.

            They were arrested by Iraqi police and subsequently “liberated” by British forces in a major military assault, directed against the Iraqi police authorities with tanks and armed cars.

            (See Were British Special Forces Soldiers Planting Bombs in Basra? by Michael Keefer, See alsoBritish “Undercover Soldiers” Caught driving Booby Trapped Car)

            The matter of what the SAS operatives were doing was hushed up.

            Plenty about this found on net

          • 4077th

            Oh that’s right Dave, sorry everything you read on he internet must be true right? If the time ever came I am sure I would not count on you to hold my back.

          • David

            Possibly to you own detriment, I think I’m suggesting everything that we read, hear exposed to is questionable, cheers

          • Polish Pride
          • Polish Pride

            And I am yet to see a Suicide bomber in NZ.
            I do see the Govt making Laws that affect my way of life very often.
            Its not a hard concept to grasp mike.

          • mike

            I see the Government making laws to make the likelihood of such actions occurring less likely.

          • Lou

            You would unfortunately need only one fanatic but the fact that we do not have any terrorism shows how good the GCSB is – ROTFLMAO … (and that is a joke before you go all flaming on me!) :) ;) < smiley face

          • David

            I’m from the government, I’m here to help. Yeah right.

          • David

            Yes its all about scale, Should everyone’s rights be subverted to catch the odd genuine terrorist?

          • johnbronkhorst

            Tell that to the relatives of the dead!

          • David

            Referring to a legal drone attack I presume?

          • Polish Pride

            the thousands from 9-11 or the millions killed overseas as a result of US foreign policy?

          • Lou

            US has just closed all its embassies across the Middle East / N.Africa. Imagine they did not and an embassy took a hit and it came out that they knew? Buggered if they do and buggered if they don’t.

          • johnbronkhorst

            Benghazi!

        • Polish Pride

          Wise up John. When the law society is coming out strongly against this bill and saying amongst other things that this legislation dangerous and is an erosion of our democracy, you don’t even have to be smart to know you should pay attention.
          If this was Labour doing this you would be up in arms.

      • wiltinpenis

        Slow down on the vino, you’re starting to slur…(sips whisky) More pertinent; do you not understand the evolution of war tactics – or more so, the ‘revolution’ of the same, as history keeps repeating itself. Except, we now live with the technology to detect communication between those who would harm us.
        Why not use that technology. If we innocents have to be afraid of ‘The Authorities’ overhearing our personal communications, then we are in real trouble, without any help from a GCSB.

        • David

          Modern war tactics are to divide and conquer, let enemy destroy itself, control the narrative, supply the WMD’s and make a shit load of dosh, liberating the country of course. Eg lets arm the Syrian rebels to bring peace to Syria, much in the same vein as the success in Iraq.

          • wiltinpenis

            Ancient war tactics were to divide and conquer. Nothing changes, with despots allowed power.

      • PlanetOrphan

        You’re just repeating yourself now bud, howa bout you try addressing some of the debate points I’ve posted ?

        • David

          Cig time first, cheers

          • PlanetOrphan

            Fair enough , make sure you read my latest at the top first, so we can pick up some speed …

      • mike

        By “at a whim” I expect you mean “by going to a judge and getting a warrant”

        • David

          The granting of a warrant is a mere formality, there needs to be someone from the judiciary to ascertain if the threshold as been reached to even consider seeking that warrant

          • mike

            Not quite at a whim then is it?

          • Polish Pride

            In a debate such as this, you are nit picking.

          • mike

            No, I’m pointing out an untruth with David’s argument.

          • David

            The current amendments don’t include the judiciary in the decision to seek a warrant, so yes a whim

          • mike

            “Applications would be required to be made jointly to the Minister and the Commissioner of Security Warrants who would jointly issue the warrant or authorisation.”

          • Bunswalla

            Mike, please stop using facts, it really brings the argument to a grinding halt. I was kind of enjoying it.

          • mike

            Sorry Bun… damn inconvenient things those facts.

    • Polish Pride

      Lets just conveniently forget about the fact that the most well known and publicized thing that the GCSB has been used for to date is copywrite infringement. Don’t bother to ask yourself if they are prepared to bring in the spooks for something as low level as that, whats next?
      Add to that that this is what you got when National was in power. What will the GCSB be used for when Labour is back in !?!
      Many need to try looking beyond the end of their noses on this issue.

      • PlanetOrphan

        True which is why I asked those questions … I’ll post the answers shortly.

        • Polish Pride

          Fair enough: I think the points are all valid except that you need to add in the counter arguments as well.

          • PlanetOrphan

            I was hoping some against the bill might do that, but a reasoned debate has not been forthcoming.

          • Polish Pride

            Then list them yourself. You seem to have an analytical mind. I think it would be an interesting exercise and I for one would actually be interested in what you think the cons are if any, both those you agree with and those you don’t

          • PlanetOrphan

            Ok bud the obvious problem is a “Dark” judicial system that doesn’t give you a chance to defend yourself.

            The answer is to empower the people in the court system.

            If the GCSB has a warrant to spy on you, then it must be documented, and valid in a court of law.

            If you believe you have/are being spied on then you should lay a complaint with the Judicial system.

            This is New-Zealand after all, and every criminal has a voice, as we are well aware of, they can lodge complaint against the system for as long as they like.

          • PlanetOrphan

            The Medias’ phobia is already addressed in the Bill, they just can’t see themselves as NZers for some reason.

          • PlanetOrphan

            Now another really good question is ….
            How long before an “On Going” investigation can see some light of day, considering there may be outstanding complaints about said investigation?

          • Polish Pride

            Good in theory, I see the problem as more being around the use of such legislation being used to silence dissenters and being done under the argument of person x is a threat to national security. That could be the government itself or the economy.
            As an example I am for a Resource Based Economy and so are many others throughout New Zealand. It is a relatively new concept in the context of other systems. However it requires doing away with the Economy as we know it today. The reality is to make such a move would require a transition from where we are today to RBE. As such it is very easy to make the argument that even I and anyone else in favour of a Resource Based Economy are a threat to National Security.
            If it can be done for that it can be done for many other things in fact for anyone that speaks out against the Government. It can all be narrated as being a threat to National security.
            Under this premise obtaining a warrant is a sinch.
            GCSB survelance occurs.
            They pass on what they obtain
            Some dirt is found
            The person is threatened/blackmailed? in some form or another. This may be outing of information to the public if they go to the courts as in your scenario.
            The so called ‘threat’ is no longer..
            I know that this isn’t what we all think when we think GCSB surveillance and terrorists and threats to National security. But I believe this will happen eventually by one of our Governments sooner or later.
            In the USA where they are much further down the track, surveillance has been performed on politicians, high court judges and more. Are these people terrorists!?! If not what possible reason would they have to surveil them? To get dirt on them? to get them to vote a certain way? to get them to make rulings a certain way?
            At this point your Democracy is no longer functioning properly.
            I would be more comfortable knowing who all of the other 88 spied upon were and why in light of this legislative change.

          • PlanetOrphan

            Indeed, but even in America these cases are open to public scrutiny, we wouldn’t know about them otherwise, the real question is about time frames, And it’s really up to “Us the People” to keep it honest and the legislation should make sure of that.

            What you are actually talking about is the Laws around the bill itself and what are our rights within those Laws.

            And the answer to that is “To be advised”, mainly because no precedents have as yet been put to the test.

            If a definitive time-frame and closed door interviews are acceptable to an on-going investigation, then you’ll see the details of the 88, otherwise, they are obviously on-going and off the table.

            That’s what I see anyway ???

          • PlanetOrphan

            Posted above as well …
            Now another really good question is ….
            How long before an “On Going” investigation can see some light of day, considering there may be outstanding complaints about said investigation?

  • Saccharomyces

    When this whole GCSB thing started getting stirred up I was like “The GCSB is going to be able to spy on NZers? What? They couldn’t before?” ho hum……

    Nothing to hide, othing to fear.

    • David

      Translated means nothing to hide, I don’t need any rights.

      • David, having posted two of your TL;DR rave fests I am no further along in understanding just exactly why the GCSB would want or care what you have to say about anything. Back before the internet I susect you used felt tips and cut out capital letters from the newspaper to stick together to send messages to politicians and posted them from post boxes not in your suburb of residence.

        • David

          Thank-you for those posts, did I suggest anywhere that the GCSB would be interested in what I say? Who do they get paid by? I have did give you a D for comprehension, must try harder, seems to already know it all, short of writing it on a note and hammering it into your head there may be no hope, do you like it when I bring it to your level?

          • Polish Pride

            Little advice for playing here David. Many people read Whaleoil.

            Unfortunately Cam hurling abuse is seen as.. well just Cam.

            Others hurling abuse have a 50/50 chance of being seen as being a dickhead by normal people reading the site.

            Stick to the points you want to make (i.e. don’t let Ego take over) without the abuse and although people might not agree with you, normal ones will respect you and your point of view.
            Consider that you will never change someones mind on an issue with abuse.

            Last thing “do you like it when I bring it to your level?” – unfortunately Cam won’t care.
            Its the old adage that if you roll in the mud with a pig, you’ll only get dirty and the pig will love it.

          • David

            Thank-you for the heads up!

          • Pro Tip: Don’t bite when Cam jabs you in the ribs. He’ll get bored and goes away.

          • Comprehension starts with C. I’ll give you a D for Dickhead.

            http://youtu.be/suaveqvlWP8

            Your behaviour is true to form for tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist tools.

          • David

            Hard to believe you post articles that are TL DR. However I suspect you did and I also suspect your reasons for posting weren’t entirely altruistic. I do appreciate it, cheers

          • Polish Pride

            Problem is Conspiracy theorists seem to end up being right more and more about things in this day and age.

          • mike

            LOL!

          • Polish Pride

            LOL?
            Conspiracy theorists have been saying the US Govt has been surveilling their citizens for years prior to Snowden. Their are many more examples you only need to use google. Try it, you might learn something.

          • mike

            No conspiracy theorist (or loonies) have said we didn’t land of the moon / CIA assassinated Kennedy / CIA implanted GPS trackers in out minds…

            Surveillance has always occurred and always will… but only if you are a threat to society.

          • Bunswalla

            Yes, please keep at it. Even a blind dog occasionally finds a biscuit.

          • Bunswalla

            According to you and your tinfoil-hat acolytes blooby, Pavlov’s Dog and P TIpp, the GCSB is greatly interested in what you had for breakfast and when you last took a dump.

            PS I have did give you an F for grammar, must become functionally literate.

          • David

            Not sure how you draw the conclusion re breakfast etc. Any more questions to highlight how silly you appear?

          • Bunswalla

            Appearance is relative isn’t it Davey? For example you look just like a self-important gasbag pissing into the wind.

          • David

            Another nugget of wisdom.

          • David

            Nothing constructive then?

          • Polish Pride

            Do you ever have anything of substance to post anymore Buns? You actually used to. What happened??

          • Bunswalla

            More drool, what a surprise!

            Who’s a good boy? Who’s a good boy!

          • Polish Pride

            So no substance then. You are truly a waste of oxygen
            I do find it highly amusing that when I post, You come running tail wagging going can I play, can I play, foaming at the mouth,. every time without fail.
            Suggest you relook up the meaning of PD. You’ll realize who it more aptly fits in this scenario.

          • Bunswalla

            Raaark! Raaaark! Polie want a cracker?

          • Polish Pride

            You seem to have an unhealthy animal fetish going on there Buns. You might want to see someone about it.

  • johnbronkhorst

    “It is an opportunity to explore with calm rational debate whether this is the way New Zealanders want to live; through fear do we want to suffer the consequences of the threat of constant surveillance. This is a radical change to our society, one that deserves discussion.”
    Wants or desires of an ignorant public are irrelevant. By ignorant, I don’t mean of govt. goings on, because even under auntie helen’s corrupt mob, it was relatively easy to see or work out what they were up to.
    The ignorance of things that may genuinely harm us, this is what the GCSB and similar agencies are for. Enemies of all kinds operate in secret, they will harm us if they can, to gain some form of advantage (financial, political or idiological). They MUST be watched and fought in secret.
    Over sight as to over reach of these departments, is necessary!! To stop them morphing into internal control agencies, whereby they themselves will become the enemy of the citizens, that they are supposed to be protecting.

    • David

      “Wants or desires of an ignorant public are irrelevant”

      Should be an election campaign slogan, however who would ever be given a mandate if they revealed their true agenda?

      • johnbronkhorst

        Conspiracy theorists of the world …UNITE…you have nothing to lose but your paranoia!!!

        • Polish Pride

          So if its all just a big conspiracy theory John I am sure you will be able to enlighten us all on how the fat German committing copywrite infringement was an act of terrorism requiring the services of the GCSB.

          • johnbronkhorst

            IDIOT!!!…This is the reason for the GCSB bill. The GCSB will now, NOT be able to determine the legality of ASSISTING the police (or any other dept,), they will have to get a WARRENT from a judge!! They will ALSO have to report to the PM!

          • The Police did have a warrant

          • David

            Yes, and you still fail to see the problem?

          • johnbronkhorst

            Yes the police did, but the GCSB helped them and will NOW require a warrant BEFORE they do!

          • Polish Pride

            John I’d suggest you read Whales reply to you. Oh and remember to take your meds next time before you post.

        • David

          Thank you for that pearl of wisdom, after that insight I guess we can all rest easy, entropy at its best!

          • johnbronkhorst

            Best argument you have???Confirmation…you are a pratt!

          • A tinfoil hat wearing prat

          • David

            Back to the name calling?

          • Mr_Blobby

            Generally happens when they run out of ideas.

            Remember roll, mud, pig, love

          • David

            Got it

          • David

            To add a little humour
            The thing about smart mother fuckers, is they sound like crazy mother fuckers to dumb mother fuckers.

          • Polish Pride

            That’s not humour.
            Its a statement of fact….but then I think you knew that already.

          • David

            Yes, in fact it makes me laugh every time I read it? lol

          • David

            The nuggets of wisdom seem endless

        • David

          Conspiracy theorists, Some believe in chem trails from aircraft, whereas anyone from the aviation industry know they are induced vortices caused by pressure differential from the aerofoil, forming ice crystals, solution winglets which reduce drag, improve fuel efficiency. Conspiracy theorists here are clearly mistaken, by association then all conspiracy theorists are wrong. Ignoring the fact that until any ‘truth’ is established it remains a theory!

          • David

            Other radical conspiracy theorists suggest the world is round (oblate spheroid actually), Most people accept this theory as truth today……

  • Orange

    Ermm good on David for saying something. But it does seem more than a bit like an emphasis on the sky is falling without any specifics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGoBoPf17u0 If you don’t talk specifics then it just seems irrelevant.

    • David

      Id rather not wait for the sky to fall, wouldn’t it be to late then?

      • kehua

        Then you my friend definately need the GCSB. End of story `chicken little`.

        • David

          I never said we didn’t need GCSB, I said it needs informed discussion, to way up the cost to the loss of privacy against purported benefits, keep us safe?

          • PlanetOrphan

            Hang on David, I’ve been trying to discuss this all day, and you keep reverting to Anti-CIA style propaganda about rights and fear of authority.

          • Orange

            Yea, it’s like the video “we must discuss this!” but then doesn’t actually discuss it, just the paranoid stuff. I wouldn’t mind discussing specifics but none have shown up yet.

          • PlanetOrphan

            Exactly , Kim Dotcom is a poor second for this legislation, although it has opened the doors in the court system.

            I think the only real problem I see with the Liegislation is a lack of time-frame for individual redress , but as the 88 are staying quiet, it’s not likely to happen any time soon.

            Keep our eyes open is the only answer to that one.

          • johnbronkhorst

            OOOHHH, I get it now….we NEED a GCSB….Provided we run it past you exclusively…./FIRST!!!… making you the FUCKING EGOTISTICAL PRATT!!!!

          • David

            Yes I see your logic.

          • Polish Pride

            please John take your meds before you burst a blood vessel.
            David: see what I mean about abuse making someone look like a total loon? The caps didn’t help his cause either.

    • Polish Pride

      So you want to wait until years later to find out that the Govt (that might even be Labour so imagine that in the scenario if it helps) has taken the very small step of using the GCSB to silence political opposition and dissent? Then what ask them not to because we used to have a democracy?

      • What do you think Helen Clark was doing when the majority of the 88 spying cases occured?…Yes it was mostly her…interestingly she says the law needs to change.

        • David

          Is this even relevant?

        • Polish Pride

          I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that this is what Helen Clark was doing and probably part of why the GCSB was set up in the first place….unofficially.

  • Mr_Blobby

    Should have left it at the, very good, first attempt David, explaining is losing with the Troglodytes on this site.

    • Whanga_Cynic

      As is proved by David’s second attempt.

      • David

        Why give up though, even when confronted with prodigious intellects, at the end of the day each person deserves to be heard and their vote counts as one, thanks

        • Mr_Blobby

          The one man one vote argument.

          In New Zealand we have race based seats, It takes less votes to be a MP from a race based seat, hardly representative.

          How do you explain a race making up say 15% of the population but having 30% of the MP’s, hardly representative.

          But a very conservative estimate, one race based vote is worth 2 non race based votes.

          • David

            Another story

          • Bunswalla

            Please, for the love of God – no! No more stories. Just go to bed.

          • David

            Your choice to read them, if you have run out of ideas perhaps you should be the one to retire.

    • Polish Pride

      “explaining is losing”
      If their weren’t so many complete idiots in the world then such a phrase might hold water.

      • Bunswalla

        PD when attempting to belittle all the complete idiots in the world, it is as well to not show you’re a paid-up member of the group by not even knowing how to spell the fairly basic word “there”.

        • Polish Pride

          Alas it is my nemesis.

          • Bunswalla

            Hey, look, a small puddle of drool. How did that get there?

          • Polish Pride

            how old are you? 5?

          • Bunswalla

            Oooh, nice one PD! Can I have some cream for that super burn you put on me?

            Took you 4 hours and that was the best you could come up with?

          • Polish Pride

            Still unable to post anything with substance eh Buns keep trying buddy, keep trying, You’ll get there one day. Then maybe you can play with the bigger kids on here. Until then you just keep wasting your employers time and money.

    • Especially when the first post and the subsequent explanation are both TL;DR

      • Mr_Blobby

        The first post was very good you were just not listening, or just hearing what you wanted to.

        The subsequent explanation was an unsuccessful attempt to clarify.

        The problem is you and your band of happy (not) troglodytes is that you insist on playing the man not the ball and the game moves on without you.

      • David

        Not really in a position to comment then?

  • Lou

    The whole GCSB noise is just warm air.

    You have two options
    – Your government spies on you
    – The US spies on you and tell your government what you have been doing.

    Which one do you trust more. Take you pick – easy huh?

    • David

      Neither, one could argue they are almost indistinguishable.

    • Polish Pride

      Or the third option you finally wake up and remember who the government is supposed to work for. Then tell them neither option is acceptable and you want a third. Not to be spied upon. To be left alone without Govt intrusion, to live your life.

      • Lou

        Sorry there are two options only. The third options has disappeared on September 11.

        Maybe if you go and live under a rock in the dessert without any technology – but then you will probably stand out like a sore thumb anyway.

        • Phil T Tipp

          There’s always a better way. One just has to be smart and brave enough to take the road less travelled, to think outside the box, to unravel the parcel of lies in your head which they programmed in there from birth, via an education system engaged in a race to the bottom, reinforced on a daily basis by the unquestioning idiot drones in the mainstream media.

          • David

            Correct, I would have thought that such a major decision would be far more robust with a consensus based on information, instead of artificially manufactured fear.

        • Polish Pride

          This is New Zealand. September 11 was some other country halfway around the world that became a victim of its own foreign policy decisions.

          And if we live in a democracy still, well then there are 3 decisions and any others you can think of as well.

          • mike

            Fuck off! I don’t see thousands of dead bodies in the street… that sort of statement is just blatantly disrespectful of all those people who died on 9/11, and the thousands of soldiers who have died doing their duty since then.

            I suggest you retract your statement and apologise.

          • Polish Pride

            I suggest you learn to think for yourself and wise up. What a completely naïve statement.
            Are you not aware of the US having manufactured dissent in a number of countries with democratically elected governments around the world. Only to have that Democratically elected government overthrown and a Dictatorial regime installed who have then oppressed their people using torture and killing of dissenters and anyone speaking out against the govt.
            Are you not aware of the fact that there were no WMDs in Iraq. The supposed premise for going to war there.
            Yes Mike 9-11 was a tragedy and so is the thousands of US soldiers that have died fighting wars in both Iraq and Afganistan. But it does not change the fact that these events are simply a by product of the US administrations foreign policy over the years.
            I STRONGLY suggest you educate yourself a hell of a lot more on it if you want to get into this argument.

          • mike

            Nice edit PP… your original statement: “This is New Zealands September 11.”

            Hence my rather angry retort… how about a bit of honesty there mate.

          • Polish Pride

            fair enough. It was a typo but I see how the earlier version would have elicited such a response. apologies

          • mike

            And yet your rather harsh comeback remains.

          • Polish Pride

            Fixed

      • Phil T Tipp

        That’s the absolute truth. They work for us.

        When they stray from the remit given to them – the broad consent to act on our behalf as part of the societal ‘contract’, if you will – then it’s time to dismantle the state apparatus and re-engineer it, better and smarter.

        Those fuckers in the beehive are in no way representative of our wants and needs, They’re careerists, beholden to greed and personal gain. Don’t be fooled for a minute that they’re even smart enough to give a fuck about your rights as a free-born sovereign human being, a citizen, one who pays their wages.

        • Bunswalla

          Yeah, why don’t you try that the next time you’re pulled over by the “pigs” for driving like a cock. Tell them how you’re they’re boss, that they work for YOU, that YOU pay their WAGES.

          Cops love that. Please post and tell us how it worked out.

          • Phil T Tipp

            There you go again with the ad-hom. I take mild offence that you think I drive like a cock, but then again I don’t give a monkey’s cuss what bile you spill onto the comments section. You’re obviously a bit of a dim troll.

          • Phil T Tipp

            Hmmmm. Disqus fail.

          • David

            Championing tolerance.

          • Phil T Tipp

            There you go again with the ad-hom. I take mild offence that you think I drive like a cock, but then again I don’t give a monkey’s cuss what bile you spill onto the comments section. You’re obviously a bit of a dim troll.

          • Bunswalla

            No ad-hom, I said driving like a cock, not that you were a cock (although you’re rapidly dismantling any defences to that charge). You know what I meant – next time you run into an agent of the state – any agent e.g. IRD, just share your brilliant theory with them about how you’re the boss and pay their wages and they have to do what you say, and tell us how you get on. I’d love to know, really.

            PS Monkey’s don’t cuss, but I’ve heard the odd tinker do so.

          • Phil T Tipp

            This monkey cusses. Every dim comment you puke underlines why the shallow end of the NZ pool is so fucking crowded.

    • Mr_Blobby

      Nearly there. The US spies on us and everyone else and on request for information tells our Government.

      The GCSB is just one of the collection points.

      But good try.

  • PlanetOrphan

    Answers/Responses ….

    1. The debate should be about documentation and
    accountability/responsibility, the boundaries of each department and how they liaise with each other during an investigation.

    1A: The judicial system needs precedent and process to deal with this.

    2. If the system is abused what checks and balances are there for fair and just outcome ?
    2A:The Judicial system can give a balance to anyone with a complaint.

    3. How many Media outlets/people are going to role over and play dead if they are investigated ?
    3A: Not one.

    4. Would a terrorist go running to the media in outrage because their “privacy” has been breached ?
    4A: After they have been arrested most definitely, before not a chance in hell M8!.

    5. Will the people on the ground doing the policing be able to follow through on an investigation and get effective results ?
    5A: Yes, they can complete an investigation within a reasonable time frame, not the ten years it took for the Tama Iti case (*Which raises some issues about what he perceived about the Law, but I’ll leave that for later*)

    6. If the GCSB bill passes will Nzers will be safer ?
    6A: Yes, assuming all my above points have been addressed appropriately.

    • PlanetOrphan

      Now have a think about 4 and 4a, why would you suppress a media outlet that has a terrorist hiding behind it ?

      • David

        Here is the official line from the Hon John Banks, with my reply

        Thank you for your email regarding the Government Communication Security Bureau and
        related Legislation Bill (the GCSB Bill).
        ACT is supporting the Bill as reported back from the Intelligence and Security Committee. The GCSB Bill provides and GCSB with clear law and improves the system of oversight over the GCSB.
        The GCSB Bill has gone through a process of public submissions and careful scrutiny by the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Hon John Banks is a member of the Committee. It will undergo two more stages of debate in Parliament.

        The GCSB Bill does two main things. It clarifies that organisations such as the SIS and the Police can ask GCSB for assistance in the undertaking of their duties. If spying on New Zealand citizens or residents the SIS and Police will need all the correct judicial or other warrants they currently need, but the GCSB will
        be able to assist them. This practice has taken place for many years, and this bill simply clarifies the position. ACT sees no point in duplicating resources between agencies and supports this step. This assistance role was also provided for in the 2003 legislation.

        The bill also increases the oversight and scrutiny of the GCSB. The Inspector-General of Security and Intelligence who formerly worked alone will now have a deputy and be supported by a two-person panel. The GCSB will be required to report annually on the total number of instances where it has provided assistance to
        the Police, NZSIS or NZ Defence Force. The Intelligence and Security Committee will hold public hearings annually to discuss the financial reviews of the performance of the GCSB and the NZSIS. There will be an independent review of the operations and performance of the GCSB and NZSIS and their governing legislation in 2015, and thereafter every 5-7 years.
        At the suggestion of the ACT Party, the bill will also include a set of guiding principles that the GCSB must take heed of when carrying out their work.
        These principles are a statement of the fundamental rights of New
        Zealanders. The Inspector-General of Intelligence will audit the
        compliance of the GCSB against these principles.

        While there will always be critics, ACT feels the GCSB Bill will make New Zealand a safer place while also preserving fundamental freedoms.

        The Hon John Banks,

        Well there is a misnomer for a start. Using honourable and Banks in the same sentence, surely that’s only intended as a joke?

        Mr Banks has paid lip service to any public submissions, and clearly NZ’ers would like to engage in further dialogue. As far as banks being part of the committee, and after careful scrutiny by the Intelligence and Security Bureau, clearly self serving interests, this gives me no confidence!

        The only reason it hasn’t passed through yet is because opposition parties believe there is political mileage to be gained in delaying it, due to overwhelming public concern, would this be the process you elude too?

        This spying practice has been happening for many years, is like saying; Is that a new dress honey? No, I’ve had it for ages.

        It clarifies the law? Translated means that when we get it wrong, you won’t know, if we get it wrong it will be legal. Fortunately our judicial system seldom get it wrong, right?

        All it clarifies is that indeed the GCSB can assist other agencies and it has legally been extended to include all NZ’ers, correct judicial warrants, except the judicial system won’t have any oversight ability to determine if the intrusion is warranted in the first place!
        Annual financial reviews, so what does this tell us, they are efficient at privacy intrusions?

        Total number of incidences they have provide assistance, hardly illuminating is it.

        Independent review you speak off, like the one we just have had? Never mind, after we all forget wecan have another crack at it down the track, lets say 5 maybe 7 years.

        Act magnanimous contribution is a set of ‘guiding principles’ a statement of ‘fundamental rights’

        Audited by the IG of Intelligence, surely this is another joke? NZ’ers have already witnessed your disregard for its citizens
        fundamental rights.

        I don’t care what Act feels, it won’t make NZ safer, it doesn’t preserve fundamental freedoms it erodes them.

        How much is this costing the NZ tax payer
        for all this spin? PR, sorry I meant propaganda

        The
        Hon John Banks,

        Well
        there is a misnomer for a start. Using honourable and Banks in the same
        sentence, surely that’s only intended as a joke?

        Banks
        has paid lip service to any public submissions, and clearly NZ’ers would like
        to engage in further dialogue. As far as banks being part of the committee, and
        after careful scrutiny by the Intelligence and Security Bureau, clearly self
        serving interests, this gives me no confidence!

        The
        only reason it hasn’t passed through yet is because opposition parties believe
        there is political mileage to be gained in delaying it, due to overwhelming
        public concern, would this be the process you elude too?

        This
        spying practice has been happening for many years, is like saying; Is that a
        new dress honey? No, I’ve had it for ages.

        It
        clarifies the law? Translated means that when we get it wrong, you won’t know,
        if we get it wrong it will be legal. Fortunately our judicial system seldom get
        it wrong, right?

        All
        it clarifies is that indeed the GCSB can assist other agencies and it has
        legally been extended to include all NZ’ers, correct judicial warrants, except
        the judicial system won’t have any oversight ability to determine if the
        intrusion is warranted in the first place!

        Annual
        financial reviews, so what does this tell us, they are efficient at privacy
        intrusions?

        Total
        number of incidences they have provide assistance, hardly illuminating is it.

        Independent
        review you speak off, like the one we just have had? Never mind, after we all
        forget well have another down the track, lets say 5 maybe 7 years.

        Act
        magnanimous contribution is a set of ‘guiding principles’ a statement of
        ‘fundamental rights’

        Audited by the IG of Intelligence, surely
        this is another joke? NZ’ers have already witnessed your disregard for its
        citizens fundemental rights.

        I don’t care what Act feels, it won’t make
        NZ safer, it doesn’t preserve fundemental freedoms it erodes them.

        How much is this costing the NZ tax payer
        for all this spin?

        kind regards

        The
        Hon John Banks,

        Well
        there is a misnomer for a start. Using honourable and Banks in the same
        sentence, surely that’s only intended as a joke?

        Banks
        has paid lip service to any public submissions, and clearly NZ’ers would like
        to engage in further dialogue. As far as banks being part of the committee, and
        after careful scrutiny by the Intelligence and Security Bureau, clearly self
        serving interests, this gives me no confidence!

        The
        only reason it hasn’t passed through yet is because opposition parties believe
        there is political mileage to be gained in delaying it, due to overwhelming
        public concern, would this be the process you elude too?

        This
        spying practice has been happening for many years, is like saying; Is that a
        new dress honey? No, I’ve had it for ages.

        It
        clarifies the law? Translated means that when we get it wrong, you won’t know,
        if we get it wrong it will be legal. Fortunately our judicial system seldom get
        it wrong, right?

        All
        it clarifies is that indeed the GCSB can assist other agencies and it has
        legally been extended to include all NZ’ers, correct judicial warrants, except
        the judicial system won’t have any oversight ability to determine if the
        intrusion is warranted in the first place!

        Annual
        financial reviews, so what does this tell us, they are efficient at privacy
        intrusions?

        Total
        number of incidences they have provide assistance, hardly illuminating is it.

        Independent
        review you speak off, like the one we just have had? Never mind, after we all
        forget well have another down the track, lets say 5 maybe 7 years.

        Act
        magnanimous contribution is a set of ‘guiding principles’ a statement of
        ‘fundamental rights’

        Audited by the IG of Intelligence, surely
        this is another joke? NZ’ers have already witnessed your disregard for its
        citizens fundemental rights.

        I don’t care what Act feels, it won’t make
        NZ safer, it doesn’t preserve fundemental freedoms it erodes them.

        How much is this costing the NZ tax payer
        for all this spin?

        kind regards

        • PlanetOrphan

          Sounds like JK wrote that up for dissemination actually.

          And you can harp on about the quality of the people, but at the end of the day, we the people can always get our hour of bleating if we want it.

          • Mr_Blobby

            Bleat all you like but they are not listening.

          • PlanetOrphan

            Ask John Campbell M8! ;-))

        • Now you are fucking me off with massive comments like that.

          • David

            Relax, cup pa tea perhaps, its all going to be OK cause John is steering the ship, Master and commander of the Titanic

          • mike

            I loved the way he repeated it about 3 or 4 times…

          • David

            Apologies, I didn’t think it came up, thanks for the question

        • Bunswalla

          Losing the will. to. live.

          • David

            I hear you Buns.

      • Orange

        Information is power and you don’t want to give terrorists power by giving them a voice they don’t deserve because they intend to kill innocent people.

        • PlanetOrphan

          Versus the right of the individual accused of terrorism.

          Sounds like a Law issue to me. A law that can’t be acted upon until the legislation can allow it to … time-frame and disclosure.

          Three things that have not seen the light of day, that should have if the Oppos’ had been thinking with their head not their private parts … . . . …

    • Mr_Blobby

      The answer is yes with a if, but and a maybe.

      That’s the problem because of the rush and urgency your points have no chance of being addressed appropriately.

      • PlanetOrphan

        They have been debating this along time bud, how many points have I made tonight that have not been addressed by the media/oppos’ ?

  • Steve (North Shore)

    Yes it is GCSB hysteria.
    Got any milk?

    • David

      In a time of Universal Deceit,; Telling the truth will become a revolutionary act.
      Orwell.

      No milk, sorry

      • David

        The 99% are the people who when presented with ALL the facts, facts that is, apply logic, reason, reach a consensus that benefits the whole. The 1% are those that would attempt to frustrate this by whatever means. Be it obfuscation, manipulation or withholding information, manufactured truths, coercion by special interest groups influencing electoral outcomes for gain. Controlling the media narrative, removing opposing narratives etc. You choose!

        • David

          A further example Mike, might be an individual who blindly follows a political alliance without any critical thinking. Like Adolf.
          I trust this gives you some clarity as to your ‘fit’ My apologies for not being clear.

  • Mk2_Zephyr

    I’m glad I was born in New Zealand in the sixties and partied thru the seventies and eighties, this country is becoming so like EAST GERMANY its not funny. Imagine encouraging people to nark or spy on their neighbours or fellow drivers and telling them it is your duty to report anything THEY feel is immoral or illegal, my gawd, soon these informants will be PAID for their information and then we will be back to the Stasi. As to all the, nothing to hide fkwits, just wait till they decide what you are doing is against their plans. Where has MY country gone ……………………….. :(

  • minibus

    99% of the population owns half the country’s wealth and 1% owns the other half. If we allow this surveillance we consent to more restrictions on our rights in the future. That is why we should protest this bill, that is why we need an independent enquiry into what has happen.
    Its call “Manufactured consent” and each generation is conditioned to it, to giving away more of their rights.

    • Phil T Tipp

      Yup, it’s abuse of consent, which has to be given – it should not be inferred – action without consent is unlawful.

      But when has that ever stopped those in power from making disastrous policy decisions in the past? Those arses will continue to fuck it up for future generations, just as the political ‘elite’ has always done – hoorayed along by the hard-of-thinking in the sycophantic press, or the under-critical opposite-spin-jockeys in the unfriendly press, the tracks greased by the dumb silence of the cattle class, brainwashed and stupid and universally, spectacularly, un-informed.

      Rights are not granted, they are not given, they are not invented. They just are. As the sun is in our sky. Common law, the basis of modern democracy acknowledges those rights as constitutional to democracy. Without freedom of thought and speech and action we are nothing but slave animals, grist to the mill of those without conscience – who wield power unlawfully and in their own interests.

      My objection to the current GCSB spying hoo-ha is the very salient fact that NZ is teetering on the brink of a short and slippery slope to becoming a dark, surveilled police state. Not unlike the poor old filthy UK. Acquiesence to this form of legal chicanery, dodgy legislation (which is rarely if ever repealed) with its dubious legacy is symptomatic of a failing state. Trust is the basis of true representative democracy, when that trust is eroded, with it goes the right, granted by consent, of those to continue in a position of power.

      This sleazy and sinister legislation does not bode well for the future either. Once the incumbent governing lot has been shoved from the driver’s seat, who then takes up the reins, and falls heir to those powers? Ideologues perhaps? Maybe petty communists? Disagree with the wind farm which the state wishes to impose upon your land – better keep quiet about it. Does your nosy neighbour disagree with the way you’re talking about politics and ideas over a glass of wine outside of an evening? In time you’ll get an unwelcome visitor.

      Keep your eyes open people, and watch them very carefully – those who would erode your rights today, would curb your freedom tomorrow. It’s just a question of degree and time.

      • Bunswalla

        The sun isn’t in our sky. Oops, there goes your “argument”. The thought police will be round in the morning to re-educate you, starting with some basic physics and astronomy.

        • Phil T Tipp

          It’s in our sky, and it’s in the sky/atmosphere/visible arc of every body in our solar system. Ad-hominem attacks are the refuge of scoundrels. Anything intelligent to add?

          • Bunswalla

            Phil I respect your right to have an opinion but your problem is that instead of anything intelligent or useful you’re full of mixed metaphors, hackneyed cliches and, well, dribble. That’s not an ad hominem attack (one of the things you should do is look up terms before you bandy them about, you really have no idea do you?), it’s just reflecting what you post.

            The sun isn’t in the sky at all, and something else that may shock you, it doesn’t rise every morning and set every evening. It just sits there, a very long way away from earth, and we orbit it once every 365.24 days, or thereabouts. The earth also rotates on its axis every 24 hours or so, which gives the appearance of the sun rising and setting. Honestly, schoolkids in year 4 learn this stuff; please try to keep up.

            Patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel, not ad hom attacks, and monkey’s don’t cuss. I’m far from a scoundrel, just someone hoping (in vain, it appears) for something intelligent to debate with you about.

          • Phil T Tipp

            I’ll give you the mixed-metaphor. And 3 out of 10 for the Primary School science. The sun is in our (Earth’s) sky. All the time, whether we are rotated in its direction, or not. Can you spell patronising cunt Buns? Not a pleasant attribute. If you look in the mirror it’s probably written across your empty troll-head.

            Now, grow up and play the ball, not the man.

          • David

            The Troposphere’s (inner atmosphere) gives way to the boundary layer known as the Tropopause, Outside this is the Stratosphere, thanks

          • Phil T Tipp

            Yes yes, semantics. The idea’s still sound. See above.

          • David

            Yes I understand what your trying to say Phil, but as has been pointed out to me, semantics can be very important when someone seeks to dismiss everything you say by some minutia they spot, they think it makes their position valid, yours by extension invalid. It’s futile, wastes time, frustrates any exchange of ideas, popular mechanism used to distract, divide, or just a lack of tolerance.
            To clarify this is not pointed at anyone in particular, cheers Phil

          • Phil T Tipp

            Understood. Thanks for taking the time David.

          • David

            Most welcome, and I agree, except the political aren’t the elite, much as they would like to think, the elite would be the ones whose interests they serve.

  • Dog Breath

    Having read both the old and new act I am really struggling
    to find where it says in the new act that GCSB as a matter of course (day to
    day duties) will spy on New Zealanders for the purpose of gathering
    intelligence.

    The new act clearly states that it (GCSB) can only gather
    intelligence upon New Zealanders on behalf of the Police, SIS or NZ Defence
    under warrant to these organisations when either organisation is performing their
    lawful duties. That’s not what the opposition to the bill are saying they are
    saying that it will be a matter of course that GCSB will be spying on New
    Zealanders.

    Can anyone point exactly to the clauses in the new act that
    supports the view of those opposing the proposed changes?

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