Monday General Debate

Welcome all.  This is today’s General Debate post.  The post where you can start your own topics or file your own links or news snippets that you think should be brought to the attention of other readers.

We also have a daily debate topic

Labour have withdrawn the Death with Dignity “Euthanasia” bill stating that they feared it would be a political football during an election year.  Should people be allowed to take their own life, with assistance if needed, under specific circumstances?

 


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  • Michael

    Euthanasia should be allowes only where a person is capable of making a coherent, informed decision, be in the end stage of a terminal condition (with an estimated three months or less to live), and after thorough investigation of alternative treatments intended to improve quality of life – even if this shortens lifespan – have been considered.

    In no circumstances should an otherwise physically healthy person with a disability be given the option of euthanasia as the creep of the definition of unbearable pain in Europe is doing.

  • Pete George

    An interesting pair of posts at The Daily Blog this morning.

    Rachael Goldsmith: “I really do think the same of Len. He may be a bit of a ratbag, but he is dedicated to the people of Auckland.”
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/10/21/lies-lies-more-lies-and-counter-lies/

    Tim Selwyn: “If that is how the patriarchy works then the sisterhood is more
    dysfunctional.”
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/10/21/tv-review-down-trou-brown/

  • dyannt

    Euthanasia. i think this is just another area where the “law makers” and busy bodies want to control our lives. In reality we won’t know the pros and cons of this situation until we are personally in it.

    • Bunswalla

      In fact it’s the exact opposite – removing the state’s control of what we can and can’t do to our bodies.

      • dyannt

        Bunswalla. I totally agree with you. I didn’t give my point of view very clearly, did I.

  • island time

    If Len had not been mayor, there is no way in this world a woman 25 years his junior would ever jump in the sack (or boardroom) with him. So it was an abuse of power in a very sexist manner. And he used his position to to get a job for a mate without declaring his true relationship. Go away Len.

  • GazzW

    Smalley couldn’t help giving WO the big smackdown on her KPMG session this morning. Seems she hasn’t quite gotten over her poor showing on Nation. Watch it WO, according to Smalley the focus is about to come right off Brown on to you and the other troublemakers that exposed this whole tawdry affair.

    • CommonSense404

      A bit late but I just read the Nation transcript over on NBR – it was disgraceful.

      Reckon WOs response will be Bring It On

    • Phar Lap

      Cant work out why she is even on that early morning blurb.She comes across as a dumbo,and hides her lack of radio nous with too many add breaks.Newstalk ZB have stuffed up putting that broad on the early slot.

      • GazzW

        Probably a matter of not what you know but who you know, A business show sponsored by KPMG & hosted by a socialist in the graveyard slot. Doesn’t make too much logic. Three months?

        I listened in for the first time this morning as I was driving back from Whangarei. Total fuck up with an offshore commentator interrupted 15 seconds into his blurb by the newsbreak. Bernard Hickey commenting on Kiwisaver was the last straw. Smalley regurgitating her version of the Len Brown saga. Hit the ‘off’ button.

        • Phar Lap

          I listened to her for the last ten times.Thought she should get the benefit of the doubt.Now have given up ,more doubt than benefit.KPMG, hope they have more nous with their clients,than the dumb blonde Smalley has on her so called early morning blurb.

    • Bunswalla

      I noticed that Susan Wood on Q + A was the lone voice on the panel, declaring she believed Cameron on the timing of the release. Muppets such as McCarten and Boag only proved their ignorance by wrongly stating that Palino would be declared Mayor if Brown resigned before he was sworn in, and then constructing a fantasy conspiracy theory based on this false premise.

      Boag even declared it was so clever she wishes she’d though of it. Perhaps she’d have a chance if she knew her arse from her elbow.

      • Team ENZ

        How stupid Boag and co are.. if the mayor resigns, there will be e re-erection (oops I mean re-election) and Lying len will put his hand up( or down) to get re-erected…

      • Phill

        I wonder if that is worth a complaint to the BSA……blatantly broadcasting incorrect information. (ie: Lying your ass off on national TV!)
        Will they have to post a message of retraction and say, “sorry, we spun you a line of crap last week…”

  • john

    lets go and boo len . len boo . boo len . give up len . who were you with in the weekend , boo len , have you been checked by a doctor ,.boo len .len be a real man throw in the towel . bring back banks . boo len ,
    any how enough of that me a few of my mates , are going to boo ben at ten . and yes they were supporters of lens . boo len , give up you are busted , go live in queensland with other nz loosers , boo len

  • blokeintakapuna

    Why the Governor General needs to investigate Auckland democracy issues…
    and whilst there, look at the political / media corruption issues also.

    Our form of democracy is a 2-sided coin. Firstly, we all get “free” elections on a regular basis where all of us are free to choose who we wish to vote for and in a transparent, credible manner and with correct over-sight, the winner is eventually announced soon after voting finishes. That winner then needs to uphold the laws and expectations from the mandate they created for themselves by the values and virtues of who and what they campaigned and crusaded on as an individual.

    They are supposed to not only help create the by-laws to help our societies function better, they are required by virtue of being the elected office holder, to actually up hold the laws, ethics and standards of those laws, rules and expectations.

    The other-side to our democracy coin, is the checks and balances. Keeping the elected officials and politicians honest, corruption free and being held to account. The so-called mandate of the 4th Estate – the traditional media.

    However – when the “watchdog” traditional media become complicit in assisting an elected official to maintain mass subterfuge on all of the population… even aiding and assisting with the façade, through rate-payer funded personal using rate-payer funded resources, to launch coordinated smear campaigns – by the watchdog 4th Estate – on the messenger that revealed the political corruption – well then it really is time our entire democratic systems were investigated… independently. For the sake of “Perception” if nothing else.

    …and the coordinated smear campaigns are easily proven too. The Press Council can just review the likes of the Herald’s coverage and that of some of their captured journalists and their attempts at character assassinations of the messenger that spoke up about the corrupt practises by the Mayor elect. For these so-called journalist professionals have nailed their colours the masthead by the tone and calibre of their “articles” ..and it’s that same masthead from which they have hoisted their own petard.

    When the democracy Watchdog has been captured and lulled into more of a lapdog of the Left, it’s an ugly stain on the political sofa in the Mayor’s office. When the Authorities can see our democracy and democratic processes being subverted for secret agenda’s of a select few and then elect to sit on the side-lines whilst the messenger gets attacked for exposing the political corruption to the disinfecting qualities of dazzling sunlight…

    Our democracy can only function correctly with proper checks and balances. The checks it seems are in the post… and the balances are somewhat MIA.

    The Governor General needs a microscope, rubber gloves, and the stomach to lift up the rug in the Mayor’s office and see what’s been swept under there…

    Who watches the watchers when the watchdog has become a drooling lapdog? …and a willing, complicit component of coordinated subterfuge upon the Auckland population and NZ’s democratic freedom?

    • 1951

      Letter of the decade.

    • CommonSense404

      Very very well said.

    • Whanga_Cynic

      Well said, bloke

    • Polish Pride

      I agree with you completely, it is blatently obvious that the media have been caught with their pants down. They like Len have had them down for some time. This is for them more about the fact that the story was broken here on Whaleoil, a blog. It sends the strongest message to date that traditional media are no longer required. That they could easily be made redundant on the biggest stories by not even necessarily numerous but by a single blog. They are shaking in their boots over this and this is why such vitriol has been directed at Cam. The focus on this and the downplaying of the real issue is the medias attempt to show the rest of us that they are still in control. That it is they who are controlling the narrative. Only they aren’t because the public simply aren’t that stupid. The public are wondering why Len Brown isn’t stepping down and just as importantly why the media are doing such a piss poor job of holding LB to account.
      The longer they continue to fail to do so the more it shows how little they are needed in this day and age.

  • Euan Ross-Taylor

    Is this the beginning of the Herald ‘stitch up’ re the elderly?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11143439

  • johnbronkhorst

    Euthanasia:
    1. Declare your agreement similar to a donor card and well in advance of actually needing it.
    2. 2 independent doctors to sign off on it (similar to Holland), both NOT your own doctor.
    This should stop any corrupt influence and prevent murder by coercion.

    • Bunswalla

      1. Doesn’t work – despite clearly indicating Organ Donor on your licence, doctors will still ask your family if THEY are happy for your organs to be used. If any one person says no, then they won’t take your organs.

      Despite being certain that once you die, that’s it, I would be utterly furious if, after death, someone in my family vetoed my wish to be an organ donor.

      • johnbronkhorst

        Agree about the donor card that needs to be tidied up. After death the instructions of the previously living, should be adhered to..ABSOLUTELY and without alteration!!! You were alive and sane when you made them!!!
        re Maori burials, organ donation and euthanasia.

  • Col

    Write it down if you want too go with out hanging around, and have some witness that you were of sound mind when you made this decision?

  • Toryboy

    The Prime Minister made the following comments on ‘Breakfast’ this morning –

    “… the policy would take out competition. So instead of 20 managers having different strategies, different ways of doing things, different profiles, some more risky, some less risky, that you choose, so why on earth would we want to do that…”

    No, he was not referring to the ‘public option’ regarding Obamacare, but Winston’s idea to set up a state run Kiwisaver scheme.

    How come if he was sitting in the Oval Office, having tea and bikkies, he would not say the same thing about Obamacare? why the double standard?

    • blokeintakapuna

      Different country, different context? Time and place for everything?

      • Toryboy

        A public option putting private enterprise folk out of business is the same whatever the country and whatever the context.
        If Obama is right then Winston is right; if Winston is wrong then Obama is wrong.

        • Bunswalla

          Obamacare isn’t a single provider of health insurance, it’s an adjunct that still keeps all the other health insurers and providers in business.

          Kiwifund would replace Kiwisaver or more correctly all the different providers of it. Your’e comparing apples with a chess-board.

          • Toryboy

            I am simply not trotting out the socialist line which Obama has peddled for years and everyone swallows whole.

          • Lion_ess

            I would be very wary of Winston’s ideas for KiwiSaver. Not so long back he talked of his plan to use KiwiSaver funds to buy back assets being sold through the Governments sell down of State Owned Assets ..
            http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/04/winston-peters-is-going-steal-your-kiwisaver-to-re-nationalise-mighty-river-power-and-contact/#axzz2iIZhUtHq

          • Toryboy

            I think the idea is madness – totally against it; please do not misunderstand me.
            I was simply referring to Mr Key’s somewhat double standard; like everyone else outside of America, except me, the PM has swallowed it whole Obama-wise, when Winston is simply proposing the same thing

          • cows4me

            Fucking politicians just can’t help themselves, so winnie wants to nationalise Kiwisaver, scumbag commie. He claims the different fund managers are stripping about $300,000,000 from the scheme and the government could do it a lot better and cheaper. Oh fucking please, if Kiwisaver went into government hands you could guarantee that the present fees taken by fund managers would pale into insignificance. Once the bureaucrats got into Kiwisaver it would be like pigs in swill. One fund manager, the government, would not be accountable nor would it have to compete against other fund managers. I’m glad I haven’t put a cent into Kiwisaver, it was only a matter of time it had to happen, the lure of mountains of cash would soon attract thieving pricks like Peters. Another reason why people are reluctant to save, the politicians simply can’t be trusted not to help themselves.

          • Patrick

            Certainly based on the history in NZ you would be nervous about letting politicians such as Peters mess with Kiwi Saver.
            Probably the only outcome would be the diversion of funds into more pet voter buying projects. Currently that sort of thinking is known as “creating a fairer society”, a term championed by the socialists that infect NZ politics. The further away Kiwi’s retirement savings are from political meddling the better.

    • Team ENZ

      Obamacare is all about one thing…OBAMA.. He wants to leave behing a Legacy bearing his name, does not matter if this bankrupts the USA, when he is gone, Obamacare remains..His Legacy… so do we want Winnie’s Legacy?..NO…

  • Lenny canceled his first public appearance. He’s meant to be running the city, not hiding like a coward.

    • blokeintakapuna

      No surprises there then…

    • Bunswalla

      Well they were schoolkids Trav. Schoolkids can be vicious, everyone knows that.

      • Team ENZ

        and they cannot vote…yet..

  • Toryboy

    Ever get the feeling the word went out last week along the lines of “Cam Slater must NOT be allowed to claim a scalp; do whatever it takes to save Brown”

    • It’s amazing alright, it all seems to hinge on peoples’ knee jerk conclusions about Bevan as far as I can tell.

      “Completely irrelevant” just doesn’t register on some media commentators.

      The rest are still trying to sell themselves their own delusion that they like Len Brown …

      • Patrick

        My brain plays tricks on me, I mean I see words like knee jerk & I immediately associate that with a picture of Brown at his desk & his hands are not above the desk.

        • I know what you mean, ther have been way to many pictures of Len Browns’ glory recently.

          I need a good movie or book to forget he exists ….

  • Toryboy

    I was amused Labour have withdrawn their bill on Euthanasia.

    The Labour party, urban liberal, clever dick/smarty pants brigade are the most greedy, selfish and materialistic people in New Zealand.

    There is more greed in Grey Lynn and Wadestown by ‘socialists’ than on Wall Street by ‘capitalists’ – (be under no illusions about that!).

    This has nothing to do with dying with dignity and all to do with murdering Granny to get her inheritance money – (got to pay for the Martinborough lifestyle block somehow).

    Labour has withdrawn the bill because they don’t want to get rumbled in election year as to the ‘real’ reason for it.

  • If Euthanasia was legal , I’d be dead right now.

    And I know for a fact, that if I was to become as sick as I was, I would make the same choice.

    I do still support the right to choose.

  • Azeraph

    Lucky they did. Who wants to be cleared off the waiting lists for just a hemorrhoids.

  • Sidey

    I like how Cam has started typing Source: at the bottom of posts to attribute to a Herald “journalist”, rather than provide a direct link to the story.

    No point giving them extra hits that they wouldn’t get otherwise while maintaining a fair nod in their direction for the source.

    Given they can hardly bring themselves to give a name to WO except when it suits a negative narrative, they should be grateful they’re being talked about at all.

    • Happy to put the links back when they start linking to our work. All we have done is lowered our standards to meet theirs. (That didn’t come out right…)

  • Roland

    Just out of interest Cam, how are your site ‘hits’ looking today?

    • On average, we’re serving 2.5 pages per second – 120 pages a minute – 9,000 an hour.

      • blokeintakapuna

        Most awesome indeed!

        • 150 pages a minute (blush)

          (not hired for my math skills. or grammar. nor spellink. why am I here?)

          • 1951

            Because of the good looks.

          • Nope, not that either!

        • Steve (North Shore)

          pic stolen, sorry about that chief

  • Alfred12

    Dear Len,
    Check out the adult section of the herald this morning. ” young busty Asian 36″, 24 hour service only $100 per hour”. Now by my reckoning you could have paid $5 and that would include a $3 tip to the young lady concerned and hopefully guaranteed your anonymity. Effectively the same service you have been enjoying with Ms Cheung and a lot less drama!

    • Hazards001

      The Herald has an Adult section? Well bugger me….who knew? All this time I thought it was a kiddies paper!

      • Alfred12

        Sorry Hazards, I should have been more specific, the Ad in question was in the “Adult Entertainment” section. The horrid is good for previous days share market numbers & the weather! End of!!

  • blokeintakapuna

    Just went and had a look at the Press Council’s website to see what the process involves with filing a formal complaint…
    Why does the EPMU union need 2 x representatives on the Press Council?
    Is this why NZ doesn’t hear much negative of anything from the Left and unions because of “related party” vested interest?
    There’s something decidedly whiffy with this self-regulating industry body…

    • Like any industry organisation, it is a closed club that in the first instance is there to minimise damage and if it can’t be avoided, to manage it. It isn’t actually there for the stated purpose.

      • blokeintakapuna

        I am totally gobsmacked at this revelation!
        So much for unbiased media working to any form of credible, ethical standards.
        Now I really think the GG needs to investigate our democracy! …and hit the “Reset” button on journalistic and political cronyism.

  • Steve (North Shore)

    Just out of interest, who many have cancelled the Herald since the ad was up?
    More important,how many new commenters got the messege that MSM is fucking dead

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