An open letter to David Cunliffe

Mike Clement has written an open letter to David Cunliffe on his Facebook page…I’m not expecting any sort of answer from Cunliffe, other than weasel words and platitudes. More likely is the letter will be quietly deleted and ignored along with the comments it is attracting.

It will be interesting to see if he can speak to people other than union flunkies.

Mr Cunliffe,

I listen with great skepticism when I hear yourself or any of your fellow MP’s talk about a living wage, and how you care a great deal about those workers earning minimum wage or very near it. All this while you earn in excess of $100,000 a year.

If you really do care and believe in this living wage and the workers in Parliament who clean your toilets here is an idea: 
Every MP in your party (and the Greens/NZF/Mana) should voluntarily take a pay cut of at least $40,000 a year (this would take most of them down to about $60,000 which is still greater than the median income, and more than I make), if all 60 opposition members did this you would have $2,400,000… this money could then be used to “top” up the income of those cleaners.

Also perhaps those of you who own an investment property may be inclined to sell that house (at an affordable price i.e. under $300,000) to someone who is looking for a first home. After all you only need one house and anything more than that is just greedy.

I however doubt that any of you will make that commitment, which I’m sorry makes you all hypocrites. And until such a time as I see you and your colleagues following the principles you espouse you will not have my vote, nor do I think the vote of the majority of the citizens of this country who pay your hefty salary.

Sincerely
Mike Clement

Mike Clement raises some good points, ones that the media never seem to raise while these over paid and under worked oppositions are using workers to further their political agenda.

 


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  • AnonWgtn

    if you lift lower paid workers to $18 an hour what are those on $18 per hour going to want $22 per hour, and those on $22 per hour – what are they going to want $27 per hour and those on $27 per hour – what are they going to want Mr Cunliffe ?
    And I assume that Cunliffe had some economic credentials – does not appear so, but he is only doing what future Prime Minister Helen Kelly wants.
    Twat !

    • Never in the dark…..

      Now that I’m over my seizure…..what are you saying about Kelly?

      • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

        Kelly will be your future Prime Minister. Now do you see how dark your future is?

    • Cunliffe has no economic credentials at all. A Harvard MBA degree, which he pretended to have for 20 years, would have given him a good understanding of business financials. The Kennedy MPA, the degree he has, is a soft degree some argue, ‘worthless’ – in public policy, designed for people in Government positions, and operating on the basic premise that endless money is available simply by taxing for the amount required.
      His actions speak louder than words. And unlike his words, the actions are clear and unambiguous.
      If they ever create a Doctorate in Hypocrisy, this man will be the first to receive it.

      • Patrick

        Economic credentials?? What economic credentials did Cullen have & yet he ponced about lecturing all & sundry & spending the taxpayers money hand over fist like a drunken sailor. The only thing you can guarantee when Labour gets into power is all the effort made to turn the books around since they were last in power was wasted. It will be spend up large time while Labour shore up their vote. It is corrupt

    • All my staff earn more than the minimum wage AnonWgtn, and most earn significantly more than the proposed Living Wage. But I have estimated the cost of the Living Wage to my business, if it were implemented at something in the order of $150,000 per annum, for precisely the reason you describe. And that’s $150,000 per annum that we simply don’t currently have.

      There is a good reason why some staff are paid more than others; it’s the value they add to a business. You cannot simply make the lower-paid staff richer without preserving the margins for the high achievers. Labour and the Greens are lying by omission when they do not factor that in to their calculations.

      The Living Wage would cost jobs in my business. Who wins then?

    • steve and monique

      Agree, upping the lower income level to $18, will only result in every other worker wanting more. Flow on effect will be businesses closing,and shifting to better climes eg China, to make their products. Mind you if you are vote buying, then these hollow promises always get votes.

      Helen Kelly for PM, God forbid.

  • Pissedoffyouth

    Unhappy with low pay? tired of being a cleaner? too lazy to upskill? vote Labour and we’ll sort you out

    • Meg

      Want to screw over hard working low income people? Are you a nasty spoilt right wing brat with nothing but disdain for those you perceive are below you and want to keep the poor down? Vote Natioanl and you too can be like POY.

      • Pissedoffyouth

        How exactly is wanting an incentive for someone to better themselves “Screwing over hard working people”. if anything removing that incentive screws them harder

        • Meg

          Already argued this point with another poor person hater.

          Some of them are simply not able to upskill themselves as it would financially ruin their family or they simply are not smart enough. However that does not mean they should be paid so little that they cannot live properly.

          Why is the right wing so determined to keep the poor in the gutter? Are your self esteems so tied to the misery of others that an improvement in their lot would bring you crashing down?

          • Pissedoffyouth

            So lets pay a cleaner a CEO’s wage then? Why just $18 an hour? If raising the minimum wage works so well we should give them $500 an hour

          • Meg

            Because it is called a living wage. There is the understanding that their skills are not worth $500 an hour, but there is also the understanding that they need to be able to live with some ounce of dignity.

            Your counter argument is pure bullshit and you have not answered my question. Is your personal happiness tied to making sure the poor are miserable?

          • Pissedoffyouth

            No, my personal happiness is my career, and having the dignity to know if I want a pay rise I have to work at it.

            Dignity is earned through personal progression, not handed on a plate.

          • Meg

            Getting a wage that you deserve so you can eat AND pay bills at the same time while putting up with the nasty moronic factless attacks from spoilt right wing brats is not getting it handed to them on a plate.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            But getting a wage they deserve requires hard work! That is the bit you’re missing. If earning more money in a more skilled field isn’t a reason to earn both money dignity than why would you even bother?

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            Pay more tax man.

          • Meg

            You go do their jobs then come back and say they do not work hard.

            You are talking nonsense when you make those sorts of fact devoid claims.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            Where have I said they don’t work hard?

          • Meg

            First line of your last post.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            I’ll rephrase it – getting a pay rise typically requires commitment to learning more or upskilling.

          • Meg

            Cleaning up other peoples shit should be worth $18 an hour.

          • James Growley

            If people cleaned up their own shit, there would be no need for cleaners, but as that comes under the heading of “personal responsibility”, that will probably never happen.

          • Meg

            Good lord, the level of stupidity is just staggering.

          • James Growley

            You are the epitome of a female bossy boots with the customary relentless mouth. Thankfully, you are not in an advisory capacity to any of my company’s as I loathe to fire anyone – but for you, I would make an exception.

          • Meg

            Like I said, the level of stupidity is just staggering.

          • James Growley

            You win, I never argue with stupid people because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience…….besides, I have to deal with enough fuck-wits already.

          • rockape

            Spotless cleaners in Nelson hospital are not allowed to deal with bodily fluids. The Nurses have to do that!

          • Meg

            And if that was the rule everywhere that would be quite nice for the cleaners who are losing their hazard pay for doing such jobs.

          • rockape

            Toilet cleaners get hazard pay? were? Have you ever met a cleaner or real worker for that matter or did you go from Uni to union and political activist in one step!

          • Actually Meg…cleaning other peoples shit is worth much less than that…cleaners in other countries do it for cents on the dollar compared to the cleaners here.

          • Meg

            Go live in those countries then.

            This is NZ, we are better than that.

          • kehua

            Reading your shit makes me think about paying you to fuck off.

          • Meg

            How about you don’t read truths that upset you. Not hard, a little thought on your part would have given you this easy solution.

            But I know common sense on the right is a very rare thing.

          • dianne65

            I hope you don’t think you have common sense. You sound like a proper dingbat.

          • rockape

            Meg, Do you think Living wage should be the minimum wage. If not why not. If so why do you think NZ can afford the highest minimum wage in the OECD yet we have one of the lowest outputs and lowest average wage in the oecd.

          • Meg

            Make the min wage the living wage.

          • So you are prepared to have Rev Charles Waldegrave set the wages of Kiwis? You really are mental.

          • Meg

            I am happy for kiwis to be paid a wage that allows them to live and for the right to stop spitting on the poor.

          • Meg, with your obvious intellectual abilities, you should approach Cunliffe and offer your services as a minister with the employment portfolio. It would be a shame to have someone with your talents languishing in the teaching profession – for that is what I assume you are!

          • cows4me

            Megs a teacher ?, my God the children, think of the little children.

          • Meg

            Naaa, being an adviser is where the real money is.

          • rockape

            As they say . If you cant do it teach it, if you are a useless teacher become a consultant!

          • Meg

            More right wing garbage I see.

          • dianne65

            LOL, you talk Garbage.

          • Col

            So you don’t want to be a cleaner, just an adviser, shit easy job that one, but you will still need the cleaners to advise you that you are getting paid more than them, why should you get paid more than a cleaner, and don’t come back to me with the ‘living wage” crap. And how and what do you need to be an adviser?

          • rockape

            The working class can kiss my arse I have a union advisors job at last. Yes Meg you keep the workers working till they drop,all the more union fees to support your drinking habit and your party of like minded political expiramenters. PS socialism has failed!

          • rockape

            Yes Meg those somewhat overweight ladies on Cambell live who were cleaning the beehive loos looked really starving.

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            Well said Meg – Don’t give up the fight until the cleaners get paid the same as Telecom CEO or may be the other way around. Long live the communist party of NZ err….Labour party of NZ.

          • Meg

            Urgh, more stupid comments from the right.

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            No Meg – I am on your side. Both of us want the poor to be happy….

          • Meg

            No you are not. Your posts are just a poor attempt at humor. Far from genuine.

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            I am so sorry you think that way. My heart is with Labour and their genuine tax policies. I like paying additional taxes to help the poor.

          • Meg

            Oh look there goes a flying pig.

          • PhantomsDoc

            Stop looking in the mirror.

          • Meg

            That’s the best you can come up with? Oh dear.

          • PhantomsDoc

            No, but it was the most publishable.

          • Meg

            Awwwwwww, poor thing.

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            Yes Cunliffe will be the Prime Minister of New Zealand!!!

          • Do yu mean that SCC isn’t genuine! I’m gutted!

          • Meg

            Sorry to break the news to ya. He’s just a right wing troll trying to be amusing.

            It is ok. You will get through this unsurprising revelation.

          • Whanga_Cynic

            Bit ironic, you calling someone a troll!

          • tarkwin

            I’m absolutely shattered that meg / Kosh / teachers rock has ruined my happiness.

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            Don’t worry Hamilton Lad. At least Lentils Brown is not the Mayor of Hamilton :-)

          • rockape

            I know who you are, and I know were you live! Be very careful!

          • onelaw4all

            Your posts are a poor attempt at debate, yet end up unintentionally humorous.
            Isn’t life cruel?

          • kehua

            They are not `paid`, the money is given to them, there is a big difference. Pay is earned . a Benefit is received.

      • blokeintakapuna

        sMegMa – have you ever wondered why Asians / Chinese from densely populated countries and cities relish NZ’s so much?

        Back home, they had no welfare and very little by way of government assistance besides plenty of corrupt officials in lots of cases. They recognise “opportunity” in all it’s potential, everywhere.

        So coming from a poverty background is not a determinate as to how well anyone can educate themselves. It’s a matter of motivation and having a “true” understanding of what real poverty and lack of options really is like. Culture and attitude also play a huge part.

        I’ve only ever met exceptionally hard working, thin and fit Asians… Yet with our “indigenous cousins ” from both here and the Pacific Island Regions, I’ve come across plenty with entitlement issues and obese laziness demonstrated just watching them around shopping malls etc.

        The contrast is like chalk and cheese. Why is that?

        • Meg

          Soo you are saying we should be like countries who have child slave labour and poverty in vast abundance?

          • blokeintakapuna

            No. That’s what you’re saying. Your point is…

          • Meg

            No I am not saying that. You are championing asian countries with a dubious reputation. Not something to follow.

            My point is pay low income workers a wage they can LIVE on. After that, it is up to them to progress further.

          • SteveWrathall

            A dubious reputation for what? Pulling billions out of poverty in a few short decades to the point where some are even surpassing our average living standard ?

          • Bunswalla

            How many low-income workers have died from starvation/malnutrition in New Zealand in the last….I don’t know…let’s say…100 years?

            Oh that’s right, I think you’ll find the answer is NONE. Zero, zip, zilch, about as many brain cells as you have SMeggy.

            All this shit about a “living wage” woo-hoo – what does that even mean anyway?

            Enough to buy fags, vodka cruisers and Lotto? Enough to buy up an old shitter and put a $5,000 sound system in it?

            If nobody’s dying in this country from poverty and starvation – and they’re not, let’s all agree on one thing, then by definition they’re receiving a Living Wage already.

            Game over, correspondence closed. You lose.

          • Meg

            No not game over, Far from it. Poverty is a real issue in NZ and despite people like you who pretend otherwise it is not going anywhere.

          • rockape

            Why are pensioners not poor on $260 a week but an 18 year old is pooir if he earns less than $736 (the living wage) a week.

          • Meg

            I am all for paying pensioners who need it more.

          • rockape

            How much more? we need to know because Cunliffe says this is only going to cost 30 million!

          • Meg

            Nothing wrong with working till you’re 67.

            I know a rather large number of over 70s who are still employed.

          • rockape

            I thought even teachers are supposed to burn out! But I guess you have never met a miner like my uncle who died at 55 after 39 years down a Yorkshire mine. Or workers in shipyards handling steel plates on the Clyde who generally were crippled by the time they were 50. Its great spouting socialism over a few wines and talking about how the workers can keep going till their 70. Chardonney socialists are the real threat the the Kiwi working man. Their policies have crippled Europe and the US.

          • Sidey

            So every spare dollar from your wages you give away to pensioners then? How do you decide which ones are worthier than the rest when you spread your wealth around?

            Or are you just full of shit and don’t in fact voluntarily donate all your surplus income. All surplus mind, not just a bit like many others do. Or is it “other people” who should pay pensioners more?

          • Meg

            My taxes pay to fund the social services and I do not mind if my taxes go up a bit. I also donate money to charities.
            However the bullshit argument that you are putting up that if one does not give away all their spare cash they are a hypocrite is just that. Bullshit.

          • rockape

            You taxes also go to fund the military ,road building subsidies to yacht racing and so much more.

          • Meg

            So lets cut sports subsidies. Lets cut tax breaks for rich overseas companies.

            Would not bother me at all if sports got no government money.

          • rockape

            Try doing some maths dearie. Add up the minimum wage being paid to everyone who works. Allow the added cost of maintaining some differentials. Add the cost of increased benefits and pensions and tell me how that will be paid for. Taxing the so caled rich wont work and CGT wont either. Pay rises have to be earned not dreamed up over a glass of chardoney with the expectation someone else will pay. Are nurses and teachers earning too much,the are the rich pricks Labour want to tax. Most business owners are small businesses,they work their balls off for the business and their workers to keep that business afloat and those workers in jobs. Most small business owners would be better off cashing up. Live on your capital Labour cant tax that.

          • rockape

            Yippee lets pay everyone more. We can worry about how to pay for it when the IMF come calling! Idiot!

          • Meg

            You should not call yourself an idiot in public.

          • cows4me

            Can I have some more Meg please…………Fonterra doesn’t pay enough, what about us poor farmers?

          • Meg

            Fonterra needs to be looked at. Not a bad thing if it was broken up.

          • cows4me

            Yes you and your mates look at Fonterra Meg but be warned they know what Botulism looks like now.

          • Muffin

            Bullshit, go spend six months in South America, watch a mother begging in the street with her three kids, people picking up cans for a few cents at the recycler then tell me NZ has poverty. We have it so good here, too good, there are millions that would work their arses off if they could live here.

          • Meg

            Bullshit argument.

            We live in NZ not SA.

          • kehua

            Bullshit. Where is the mana? Where are the vege gardens ? Where is their self-respect/? Where is `your` honesty?

          • Meg

            Takes money to plant veges. Takes time to tend to a garden, hard to do if you are working 2 or more jobs to make ends meet.

            Perhaps we can get people like you to go plant and tend one for the poor.

          • rockape

            By advocating a Living wage you put a burden on industry which quite frankly is struggling at the moment to be competative. You also transfer a burden to ratepayers and all NZ consumers. If workers get a Living wage then they also get a reduction in benefit so will be no better off. How much will be added to the bill for all pensioners by the extra tax,rates and price rises we will see in supermarkets and services.
            Also what is a living wage for a man with 3 kids and a working wifew as opposed to a 16 year old living at home in his first job. Answer me that and you will gain some credit?

          • Meg

            That tends to be why you have the min wage and living wage.

            You will find most of those working in “industry” are paid close to or above the living wage now.

            And given that there is a considerable percentage added to food now between the supermarkets buying it and the public buying it, there should be no need to increase prices unless you are being greedy,

          • rockape

            Supermarkets make less than 3% on their investment. They have very high wastage rates on fresh produce and high staff costs/ Their margines wont allow this to be absorbed. You will get price rises, that affects the poor ,pensioners and all on a fixed income. So what will you do for those people?

          • Meg

            Having seen markups, their margins will do just fine.

          • rockape

            Have you allowed for cost of employees and cost of premises and GST and tax in your calculation have you allowed for wastage, shoplifting,insurance in your calculation. Just because New World buy a banana for 50cents doesnt mean they can sell it for55 and make a profit. Have you ever run a business-dont bother to answer!

          • rockape

            Their are not many workers working in Industry in NZ . Most work in the hotel industry,retail etc . Most of those who start in those industries are payed close to the minimum wage. I think you will find that the same in the areas of agriculture and tourism.

          • Meg

            So?

          • Yep…they also have full employment and no minimum wage…yet people seem to get by.

          • Meg

            You live on min wage supporting your family.

      • Tax the Rich Pricks harder! That’ll work.

        • Meg

          It will help. Along with cap gains tax.

          • PhantomsDoc

            Can you explain how that will work in reality?
            How does adding another tax onto a product make it more affordable????

          • Meg

            The cap gains is to help the housing market by making speculators who have had a free run in this country think twice before buying up and flicking on house after house at inflated prices.

            Less speculator buying, less demand, along with increasing the supply of affordable houses across the country and if we can convince people to stop moving to Auckland to live even better.

          • Whanga_Cynic

            You talk such shit, Megster. Property speculators have to pay tax on their gains under current tax laws, so how will a CGT help? Typical left wing bollocks, just like missing T.

          • mike

            And point to note, if you own a house when you die it is no longer classed as a family home, therefore under Labours plan your children will be taxed on it when they sell it.

            So Labours CGT is also an inheritance tax.

          • Meg

            If a child has to wait till their parents pop off to make money then they deserve to be taxed.

          • mike

            Meg I consider my house to be an investment for my children, I have paid for it with my hard earned money. I scrimped and saved for the deposit… all so I could have a family home.

            If when I die my children sell this property in order to get a deposit for their own family homes why should they be taxed? Are they rich pricks just because I worked my arse off to give them a little something when I croak… that’s heartless Meg.

            But then what else can we expect from socialism.

          • Meg

            Cap gains tax will help curb the speculators. Despite the mistruths the right tell.

          • Whanga_Cynic

            So, reading is another skill you don’t possess?

          • Muffin

            There are plenty of speculators in Aus Meg, and they have a CGT, are you pretending to be so stupid, how does someone say such idiotic rubbish as you with a straight face?

          • Meg

            Stupid is reserved for the right wing,

          • No it won;t…it won;t even slow it down, show me one example where CGT has dons as you said…just on example..

          • Meg

            You are not listening either by choice or ignorance.

            It is one part of an overall plan. Stop pretending otherwise.

          • James Howlett

            Meg this is an error. Introducing a capital gains tax is unlikely to take speculators out of the market. There are many, many markets globally, including property markets, in jurisdictions which impose capital gains taxes. Those markets are not bereft of speculators by any means and there is no correlation between markets with capital gains taxes and affordability of the assets traded on those markets.
            The reality is that a left imposed CGT is required as a revenue gathering exercise in order to fund other promises. Some of those promises may include a handful of affordable houses but they will not be desirable houses and the vast majority of people who cannot now afford a house will still not be able to afford a house. The only difference will be that they voted for someone who promised them otherwise knowing full well that it was not true.

          • rockape

            Yes james but its not an instant tax. The benefits will be well down the line and wont be funding anything for a long time!

          • James Howlett

            Oh well sure the cash won’t come in instantly but I don’t imagine that will slow the spending. :)
            My guess it that the spending has to kick in quite quickly to fulfil the bait-and-switch and to distract from the fact that there has been no impact on affordability.
            You justify it on the basis of projected CGT revenues and for those purposes you assume the speculators are in fact still in the market and that house prices are rising at historical averages – because they will be, and they will be. You also make rosy assumptions on admin costs, compliance and avoidance behaviour – because you have to.

          • Meg

            Cap gains is one small step in the overall plan. Something the right tends to ignore.

          • James Howlett

            I’m not sure whether ‘the right’ does one thing or the other but there is certainly significant frustration from financially literate people at the dishonesty of connecting a CGT to housing affordability. Ultimately it is only the poorly educated and financially illiterate (ie the most in need of assistance) who believe that a CGT will bring home ownership within reach. They are the ones who will vote for a CGT and, if successful, then ultimately they are the ones who will be disappointed when it does not work as advertised.

          • rockape

            Also meg, if you put CG on property expect rents for those poor workers to go up. Those who speculate in property pay tax on that gain in value. Landlords are businesses, add CG to their debit side and they will raise rents to pay for that. So it just goes back to the poor.

          • Meg

            Not if you regulate to prevent that.

          • mike

            Regulate rents? Whats next, will Labour be setting prices for food, petrol and consumables along with power?

            And who will pay for the difference between the market value and the government value?

          • Meg

            Power is already in the line of sight to be dealt with.

          • mike

            You obviously didn’t get the point of my post… Government has no right to determine prices for those things.

            Let the market decide what things are worth, let consumers decide how much they are wiling to pay for them.

          • rockape

            So in your socialist paradise we have wage increases but businesses cant put up prices. Seems a plan to crash business and jobs in NZ. Now get your head out of your socialist propeganda and think for yourself for once in your life!

          • Meg

            Businesses can put up prices. But if they are greedy then people will not buy their products. So they have to live in reality and not some right wing market economy nonsense world.

          • rockape

            So people wont buy food!Supermarkets, Wont live in rentals property investors. When I get my margines cut ,there comes a point when workers get sacked, business premises get sold off and I put my stasc in the bank and sack my workers;thats the real world.

          • Muffin

            Fuck you’re dumb

          • Meg

            Yawn. Try harder.

          • GazzW

            You mean a bit like regulating lightbulbs and showerheads? This all sounds a tad familiar to me.

          • Meg

            Which was never going to happen but the media decided to run with it because they wanted a new government.

            And I am sure I have read somewhere that Key is more interventionist than Helen ever was.

          • GazzW

            Where did you read that Meg? The Standard maybe?

          • Meg

            No, political commentators. Especially when it comes to local government, Key wants to control it all.

          • PhantomsDoc

            Wrong because even if the speculators sell out of the market they will still add the price of the CGT onto the sales price of the house. In doing so, those that don’t have to pay a CGT will also add this value to their houses when they sell, thereby raising the cost of all houses by the cost of the CGT.

            This is how it has worked in every other country in the world which has a CGT. If you believe it will work differently here in NZ, please take the time to educate us all as to why it will work differently.

          • Never worked in Australia, or anywhere else in the world for that matter…give me just one example of a successful CGT…just one.

          • Meg

            CGT is one part of a plan. You are misrepresenting the truth, no surprise there.

          • Muffin

            No it won’t, tell me you only teach art or something else un useful, god help your pupils if you teach economics.

      • YoungA

        Is this Helen Kelly??

  • Col

    The cleaners are only asking what is fair, as their work load has increased since Cunnycliffe became leader for the Labour Party, the cleaners now need to keep up with not only the shit but also the bullshit Currycliffe has been shovelling into the House.

    • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

      ROFLOL!! Col, you are going up and up in my Rich Pricks’ register mate!! Toilet cleaners working extra hard to clean up Curryleaf’s (bull)shit!! Priceless. Generally I award a “Fenton” for such ingenuity….but intead will give you the She Beast herself.

      • cows4me

        Your missus is looking lovely today sir.

        • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

          I will rather vote Curryleaf….

      • Col

        My god looks like the day the She Devil first learnt to fart. Great expression on her face, may have been taken when her and Winston had been on the scotch together.

        • cows4me

          I’ve seen possums with the same expression after sniffing cyanide

      • Col

        Do you keep that photo in your back pocket, hence the lip lift?

        • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

          Now you are in Fenton territory…so caution needed…..

    • Meg

      Putting aside most of your pathetic comments, yes they are only asking for what is fair.

      I know fair treatment is a foreign concept to the right, especially as so many of them expect to be treated better because they think they are better, but in the real world fair treatment is a noble thing to aim for.

      • Pissedoffyouth

        So other low paid workers in the private sector should have more of their tax taken to fund this pay rise

        • Meg

          No.

          Tax those who earn bucket loads of cash more. Cap MP salaries, do away with all perks for ex MP’s.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            Why should people who have made an effort to upskill and get a good wage have more and more of their income stolen to fund people who are either too lazy or stupid to do the same?

            if anything, poor people should pay “their fair share”

          • Meg

            Social responsibility and moral responsibility. And it has nothing to do with being lazy, that is just language used by idiots to make themselves feel better.

            I know telling a right wing brat that morals are a good thing is like telling the tide not to come in, but there you go.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            By paying taxes in the first place higher income earners already do more social and moral responsibility than anyone on minimum wage.

            For everyone to pay their fair share everyone should pay the exact same amount.

            Also insulting me might cover up the need to provide a proper argument but it really doesn’t work

          • Meg

            Flat tax is a gift from God to the rich and an attack on the poor No, a higher tax for the upper brackets will be a good start.

            And I am stating facts about you, not insulting you. But take them as you want. Your argument is based in right wing protect me I’m better than the poor land. Not reality.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            You realise that any kind of tax, and raising all taxes is an attack on the poor Meg

          • Meg

            Not if you do not raise the tax on the poor. Leave it as is.

          • cows4me

            The poor pay very little if no tax Meg but expect to have all the benefits. They should pay tax and a flat tax would be a fair system. Unfortunately socialists are born with severe cases of green eyed jealousy. Our present tax system is used to penalise those that seek a better life and reward those that couldn’t give a stuff. Our tax system is used by politicians to play class warfare, play one against the other and what your mates really excel in, buying votes.

          • Meg

            Given I would be one of the ones getting taxed more your argument does not hold water.

            If you raise the lot of the poor you raise the country as a whole. Less crime, less health costs, better educated children, less poverty, etc… Helping the poor is not only a decent thing to do, but is is also quite self serving for the better off as it makes the country safer and better on the whole.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            You’re on a government salary anyway so any tax you pay is just a circle jerk.

          • Meg

            Which is just another nonsense argument,

          • Pissedoffyouth

            No its not – I have no children so I shouldn’t have to pay for education. If I have children, then I should pay. Privatise the whole thing.

            If people are dumb as balls and have children while on low income then why should I pay for it?

          • Meg

            Because putting education out of the reach of the poor is such a good idea.

            Good grief. This is not England in the 1800s.

          • cows4me

            You are dead right, if we raise the poor we raise the country we just disagree on how to raise the poor. Plucking some bullshit figure out of the air and saying “living wage” is a nonsense on so many levels. I’m surpised you can’t not see the errors in this idea.

          • Meg

            Hardly plucking.

          • So mEg do you actually know how it was calculated? i do, but suspect you have no idea

          • Meg

            The fact you just stated it was calculated kills the idea that it was plucked.

          • Muffin

            I believe whale was using the term calculated rather flippantly.

          • Then a minimum age of $500 will solve everything.

          • Meg

            Urgh. You were doing so well till that point;

          • rockape

            Interesteing Meg that since those nasty tories got in Crime has dropped! More in work not on benefit = less crime. Work for benefit + less crime.

          • Meg

            You slash the benefits and see how right I am.

            And the reduction is crime is far from Nationals victory. It is a victory for the cops as it is under any government.

          • rockape

            But its governments that give the cops the tools, give the cops their priorities. These a re the same cops that oversaw crime increases for 9 years under Labour and now ,since National got in crime has dropped. We are no longer giving benefits to the mongrel mob to fund crime as we did under Labour!

          • Meg

            Then the cops should be commended for doing a good job under this government.

          • rockape

            Meg but your point was raising the poor would reduce crime, has National done that for you. If not were is the evidence that paying more on benefit stops crime. I know of no such evidence.

          • Meg

            The police have done a good job given backroom services have been slashed by this government.

          • RightOfGenghis

            Interesting point. Only 210 (or 21%) of the 1,000 new sworn police recruited under the Labour-NZ First agreement were posted to general frontline duties. By contrast National threw 300 more cops at the frontline in south auckland alone in their first two years. Of course that has nothing to do with the fall in crime in that area

          • rockape

            And meg frontline services increased,thats why crime is down. Good governance and cutting waste by a National government.

          • rockape

            Who ever suggested slashing benefits. I am all for working for benefit were possible and giving insentives to get into work. I am definitely anti those small percentage that use benefit as an alternative to work or benefit as a supplement to crime. I am sure you are too. I have never suggested slashing benefits. I do worry that Labours policies will cause massive inflation and thereby reduce the value of the benefit. Thats sort of what happens with inflation, prices up ,interest rates up, employment down there is so much evidence of that. Ask Europe!

          • Pissedoffyouth

            So wouldn’t the best way for the poor to get a pay rise is to cut government spending and numbers and lower everyones tax rate?

          • cows4me

            Don’t confuse Meg POY, there is only one true answer for any problem TAX.

          • Meg

            I am all for cutting Gov spending, in the RIGHT places. Not from the social services.

          • Pissedoffyouth

            As social services are the most expensive part of government spending cutting anything else is just trimming around the edges.Cut all benefits immediately and cut all tax rates by a third and instantly you give people a big pay rise.

            Don’t want to be out of money when unemployed? Take out employment insurance

          • Meg

            A typical right wing idea.

            Doing all that will cause massive social harm, increase poverty, drive a lot of people to crime to support themselves, increased child hunger, lower attendance of school etc…

          • Pissedoffyouth

            How does giving the genuine hard working poor a pay rise going to cause a problem? Isn’t that what you guys are fighting for?

          • Meg

            You cut social services and you will cause those problems.

          • dyannt

            “A typical right wing idea.”

            Meg, it appears you are very much a left wing protagonist, with very certain beliefs about the traits of right wingers. May I ask where you got this education from? If not from a right wing manual, then I would suggest all you have is opinion, and that does not hold validity in any reasoned debate.

          • Meg

            I get my views on right wingers from the actions of right wingers. There is no magic playbook, I just look at what they say and do.

          • rockape

            So social security health and education are the big spenders so which are you cutting and by how much?

          • Meg

            None.

          • rockape

            Why not lower their taxes and their take home pay will rise. Now thats an idea that would frighten socialists. They would have less to spend and less to bribe the voters with. Novell idea JK had for a politician. Doing whats right for NZ not what will buy votes like Cullen and Clark.

          • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

            Kindly let me know how much tax the rich pricks should pay. I will let the messiah know your views.

          • SteveWrathall

            You do realise that a flat tax means that someone earning twice as much pays twice as much tax? Fair, and much simpler.

          • Meg

            A flat tax benefits the rich.

          • mike

            Meg, I think you’ll find most people on the right actually want the poor people to get educated, get a better job and become rich people… because then they would pay more tax, spend more money and in turn decrease the burden on the less than 30% of the population who pay more than 50% of the tax.

            Being rich is good, we want everyone to be rich. But to become rich you must first start off with very little or nothing.

          • Meg

            I think you will find most on the right do not want that at all.

          • mike

            I would say more right leaning politicians want that more than more left leaning politicians…. because the people on the left need their poor downtrodden masses in order to further their own ideology and goals. Hence my claim the Cunliffe and the rest of his ilk are hypocrites.

          • Meg

            ANd yet Key has reversed employment protection and just kept kicking the poor while giving tax breaks to rich overseas companies.

            I agree there are hypocrites about but it is John Key and the National party and the sooner they are gone the better NZ will be.

          • rockape

            The employment protection reversal has brought more young people into work. Thats good for them and good for the next generation who under National will see the benefits of ambition and work werea s under Labour they would see a long and winding dole queue. Maggie had it right when she said “Labour doesnt work”

          • mike

            Your right Meg, JK and his team are wrecking NZ… I mean the economy is performing better than ever, inflation is lower than ever, unemployment is dropping… oh woe is my NZ is going down the gurgler…

            Cue the Tui add… YEAH RIGHT!

          • rockape

            Isnt it interesting that crime stats proove its the poor who rob the poor those good old beneficiaries would rob you as soon as look at you. Try parking your beamer outside a state house for a week and you can prove my point. All bosses are bad, all the poor are good, so 50s love!

          • rockape

            If its a gift from God who are socialists to oppose it!

          • TomTom

            Meg, if you must resort repeatedly to stupid insults like that, then everyone knows you have no good points to argue.

          • Meg

            Facts are facts. Don’t like em, don’t comment on them.

          • TomTom

            Here is a “fact” – you’re clearly a self-entitled lazy arse who wants all the money you can get for no work at all from all those “rich pricks.”

            Don’t like it?

          • Meg

            Goodness that was a load of pure garbage Tom.

            Try again.

          • TomTom

            No, that was a pathetic, weak-sauce attempt at a comeback. You try again, Meg.

          • Muffin

            Not a single fact from you yet troll, just mindless drivel. I can’t believe you teach.

          • Someone once said, “the poor will always be with us”. Not sure who, but there must be a grain of truth in it!

          • Meg

            Yes, but there is no need to kick and spit on them.

          • Col

            Now Meg, if you don’t have the poor, who will be the rich?
            If you don’t have the rich you won’t have the poor.

          • Meg

            More nonsense.

          • rockape

            Kicking and spitting Meg, whenever did you see that. Now Helen Clark spitting on returned servicemen that has happened. Pickets spitting and kicking workers trying to get to work, that I have seen . But in my 67 years I have never seen tories spit on the poor!

          • Meg

            Open your eyes then. You have missed a lot in your 67 years walking around with your eyes closed to truth.

          • rockape

            If you have ever seen tories kick a worker or spit on one I hope you were a good citizen and reported it to the police. No! So its just another rufus painter moment, those nasty workers abusing their workers with no union to Help. I call bullshit on you!

          • SteveWrathall

            It has everything to do with being lazy. Whenever the poverty pimps wheel out an example of some hard-done-by sad Sadie/Stu, a few clicks of their facebook page reveals the real reasons for their unfortunate situation

          • Meg

            Typical right wing response. Laziness is a staggering tiny part of why a small group of poor are poor.

          • Muffin

            I think we could just retire useless teachers, pay for I that way. You could put your hand up to be first!

      • rockape

        What is your fair. That all should be paid equally regardless of their ability or contribution. That ll financial insentive to improve ones lot should be removed that nurse should be paid more than surgeons, after all they put in more hours and have to clean up after patients. Just were does your socialism start and end.Do you want a North korea for NZ.

  • Sir Cullen’s Sidekick

    Bros – I raised this with Curryleaf during our daily morning meeting. Curryleaf says he will not rest until the cleaner of the parliament gets paid the same as CEO of Telecom. There you go bros! You all have hope! start scrubbing the toilets fast…..

  • TomTom

    Those cleaners need to get a grip. I worked after school cleaning, where the toilets were far more fucking disgusting – multiple times encountering blood in the boys toilets for example – and I coped and vowed to work my way up to a decent job.

  • Never in the dark…..

    “Daniel Stratton Socialism will work…..untill they run out of other peoples money.”

    Spot on.

  • cows4me

    Don’t be silly Mike socialists don’t take pay cuts, that’s not how it works. The people who actually produce hard currency will be the ones taking the bath. Cunny and his hollow mates are takers not givers. About the only thing these arseholes give out with any real skill is hypocrisy.

    • Bunswalla

      That will be Wussell manning the printing presses producing our hard currency. Only problem is it will get softer by the minute as his QE madness takes hold in the markets.

      • You are being a bit hard, Buns. It worked for Mugabe, didn’t it? Didn’t it? …..

  • mike

    Hey WO I’m glad I was able to generate some interest for you :-)

  • rockape

    Meg; Why is a living wage the same for an 18 year old as a man with 3 kids and a non working wife. Is the living wage the new minimum wage. If $18.40 is what is needed to live on ($736 a week) what should a pensioner who has worked for 47 years get.

    • Meg

      Answered above.

      • rockape

        No Meg you havnt answered, Listen, I will only say this once. Why is the living wage the same for an 16 year old living at home as for a married man with a family of 3 to support. Do the have the same expenses? Answer that simple question. If you cant, the living wage is busted!

        • onelaw4all

          *crickets*

  • rockape

    So to summarise Meg, the minimum wage should be $18.40 per week. This wont add to inflation. Pensioners will get an undisclosed rise but presumably need much the same as an 18 year old ie $18.40. This will all be paid by a tax increase on the rich(to be defined) and CGT. CGT will stop houses inceasing in price(waiting for evidence of that,Sidney property prices dont help and theu have CGT) Non of this will lead to rampant inflation and we all know the result of that. Interest rates up, hurts every house owner. Jobs down great for the beneficiary industry and pensioners screwed. Great plan Meg how very socialist of you!

  • rockape

    I met a real rich prick once. A friend of my fathers,his name was Sir Hector Munro. Over a beer with him (I was 18 at the time) I suggest it was flashy to drive a green bentley! His response was his bently was cheaper than my mini- reason, his was tax deductable and he paid tax at 97.5% so his car cost him 2.5% of its true value. So if Meg thinks taxing the rich will solve problems forget it. All they need do is buy a new helicopter as a work vehicle and there goes the tax. Wise businesses earn little and reinvest in their businesses.

  • rockape

    Fact for Meg only 6 countries in the OECD have a higher min wage.Aus,Belgium.France,ireland,Luxumbourg and the Netherlands. All those have a far higher cost of living than NZ. If the minimum wage rises to 18.40 as meg wants we would have the highest minimum wage in the World! Why do you think we can afford it with one of the lowest per capita outputs in the OECD. God I feel sorry for all those starving Swiss, Germans Danes, Norweigans and Swedes. How they must be suffering, what you say Meg!

  • rockape

    I am so glad we have the Megs and Cunliffes of this World. The more real reds we have the more certain I am of a National third term and a split in Labour to have a far left and middle ground socialist party. Long may they wave the red flag. It scares the shit out of every hard working , ambitious ,proud Kiwi.

    • Meg

      Get used to it. Next year he will be PM.

      • cows4me

        “Next year he will be PM”, your not up with the play Meg, he already is a Pathetic Munter.

        • Meg

          No that is John Key.

          • rockape

            Yes didnt you think that in 2008.2011 amazing such a light weight and inexperienced leader is on his 4th Labour leader!

  • Rimutaka

    What a ridiculous letter, so by the letter writers standard all National MP”s should resign and become self employed so they are productive economically and if they don’t they’re just hypocrites who don’t practice what they preach..

    • mike

      Please explain how what I wrote is ridiculous?

      Last I checked most National MP’s actually practise what they preach, unlike those on the other side of the house. If I see them being as hypocritical as Cunny and his chums then I’ll write a letter to Johnny.

      • Rimutaka

        It’s even ridiculous that you fail to understand why it’s ridiculous. You have a ideological belief in the cult of individualism that it blinds you to the basic tenets of democracy. Care to explain this nonsense as to why our democratically elected representatives are expected to individually pay for the policies that we vote for. It may of escaped your notice but democracy by it’s very definition is a collective. And politicians are the collectives representatives. Duh.

        I think Johnny will care as much about your letter as Cunliffe does. It was a futile exercise in self gratification.

        • mike

          I didn’t vote for Labour, and I don’t believe in the nonsense they are spouting about a living wage. And neither did the majority of this country… therefore I’m not expecting them to individually pay for any government policy, but merely put their money where their mouths are. Is it unreasonable to expect someone to actually do what they say? Since when did we expect people to be so blatantly two faced and not give a damn about it?

          And I think you failed to grasp the intent of my letter, I am calling him on his hypocrisy.

          Now if that’s ridiculous then so be it… but I would put it to you that by your acceptance of their lies and hypocrisy you are the one who is being ridiculous.

  • Polish Pride

    It is interesting that we seem to tie effort to the amount a person earns when in fact often the opposite is true. My first job was as a rousie in a shearing gang. It paid about 12 bucks an hour which was good money at age 16 and I worked harder in that job than in many subsequent ones. I had jobs payings sums many many many times greater than 12 dollars per hour that required significantly less effort.
    It does raise and interesting point that many jobs are necessary, don’t pay well, but someone has to do them. In many of these jobs they would have to work far far harder than you do, would be deemed to work hard by anyone walking a mile in their shoes.
    So given that why shouldn’t they be paid a wage that enables them to live with a little dignity. That enables them to have enough to buy what they need and a little more.
    After all They work hard. They often work 40 hours or more. Is that not enough?
    Is that not enough to be able to justify someone being able to live in dignity?
    Even if the only reason it came down to was we simply can’t afford it……Then Money has become a barrier to achieving what should be done. This is another serious weakness in our current system and another reason amoung an ever growing list of reasons to look at better alternatives like RBE.

    • rockape

      Most hard jobs are quite well paid. Mining, dockers etc. The jobs that are not well paid are those that are not particularly hard, and require little skill. If a job can be done by an unskilled novice it cant demand high wages. It amazes me that the left want Unskilled easy work to be paid the same as sklilled work were a qualification and experience are demanded. Not long ago apprentices would work for next to nothing. Their reward was the marketable skills they would gain, not the immediate financial reward. We are faced with a generation of”I want it now” youngsters” aided and abbetted by socialists who see a vote in supporting this attitude. Also supported by unions who used to fight for workers safety but now have one mantra—-More for less! This will in the end cost jobs. Inceasing the cost of benefits and most importantly destroying the Mana that goes with having a job. TheUKs disease was militant unionism,it killed industrial BritaIn. We now have militant beneficiaries as NZs disease and that will kill NZs wealth and growth as it did in the UK.

      • Polish Pride

        I don’t disagree with any of what you have said. Even my Rouse job was well above minimum wage at the time.
        I still think there is an almost philosophical question of – If a man works 40 hours in a job that Is required by society regardless of that job being low skilled. Should that man be able to receive a wage that allows him to live with a little dignity.
        What if that man worked 50 or 60 hours should that be enough to allow him to live in our society with a little dignity…

    • mike

      Not that RBE nonsense again… we put this to bed last time. It’s communism plain and simple.

      IT DOESN’T WORK AND NEVER WILL!

      • Polish Pride

        Uh mike perhaps you don’t read too well as I explained and even put in simple terms for you. RBE is nothing like communism It uses Science and Technology to provide the solutions in society and is a system designed to take away the requirement for man to have to work for the system by automating roles wherever it can.
        Capitalism is more akin to communism by comparison. Large central government and workers must continuously work for the system in order for it to be able to continue. An inability for both systems to even meet the bottom level of needs on Maslows Hierarchy.

        If you can’t grasp such simple concepts then perhaps the discussion is beyond your level of intellect and you should leave it to others who can

        • mike

          Yes yes, nobody will own anything, everything (resources, infrastructure, production and distribution) will be controlled by a single group “for the betterment of all”, you won’t have to work if you don’t want to… but everyone will want to because they’ll only have to do something they enjoy and only for 3 days a week… and they’ll still be able to have everything they need and want.

          And who will do all they work? Robots… that’s what you told us last time, robots will do almost everything apart from motorbike mechanics… that wasn’t on your list of things these robots would do.

          Take away the robots and you’ve got communism. If you can’t accept that fact that this is a unrealistic pipe dream then perhaps you shouldn’t take part in an adult conversation.

          • Polish Pride

            Yes mike Robotics Science Technology and Automation, imagine a world where we use those things to develop a system that serves us instead of a system we have to continuously work for run by bureaucrats as we have now. I don’t know about you but I still put a lot of faith in the principles of science and think technological solutions have already helped us immensely but could be used to solve many of the worlds problems……..or we could simply leave it again to bureaucrats…clearly that’s working stunningly well with crime reduced by 80 percent , no more wars and no more poverty. Oh that’s right we still have all those problems and others under our current system don’t we.

            “Take away the robots and you’ve got communism.”

            A key principle of RBE is to automate roles so they don’t have to be performed by man. In this instance communism and Capitalism are much closer in fact they are exactly the same.

            Planning in RBE would use the same timeframes as are used in Capitalism and would essentially be almost reactive based on information from consumers, another major difference and a key area where RBE is different from Communism and is in fact the same as Capitalism.

            Small to no government another difference with RBE and another area where Communism and Capitalism are exactly the same.

            There are many more examples also…

            People will still own things although one day by their own choice may not need to so your assumption here is incorrect also.

            “everything (resources, infrastructure, production and distribution) will be controlled by a single group “for the betterment of all”

            Incorrect their would be multiple groups and those groups would be experts in their fields. This is as opposed to leaving it to Bureaucrats with no expertise as we do now which again is obviously doing so well for us isn’t it.

            Tell you what mike next time your car needs to be repaired, take it to a politician instead of a mechanic and see how well that works out for you.

            Are you aware that in this world we have Human trafficking for both slave labour and sex slaves, both of which involve the trafficking of children. Under RBE this scourge on society would be no more.

            So far on this topic you are no better than some of the left wingers that come on here and simply lob grenades based on half truths and misinformation. However If you want to have an adult conversation about the pros and cons or want to learn more then I am more than happy to discuss things further.

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