Thursday General Debate

Good morning.  Just another friendly reminder to sort your Christmas shopping out over the next few weeks.  7 weeks to go to Christmas, roughly.  It will be over before you can remember what comes after 9 Ladies Dancing.

If someone else is tasked with the Christmas logistics, or you are a leave-it-to-the-last-minute sort of person, you can now enter the General Debate and share your thoughts, news or snippets for the day.

Today’s topic:

If God is everywhere, aren’t we all, by definition, a part of God?

 


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  • Orange

    Because the proposition is not “God is everywhere” but rather “All of God is everywhere.” The first does imply that he is just really big and spread out. The latter is a reminder that size is a physical limitation that does not apply. It’s an interesting observation that many of the modern “angry atheists” fails to make in their keenness to recreate god in their own finite image.

    • OhopeBeachBugger

      I’d say atheists have every right to be angry, having been subjected to the most scurrilous nonsense on stilts for centuries, including terrific oppression…

      • Orange

        I’d love to take you to Washington DC. There’s a great museum there.

        • OhopeBeachBugger

          I’ve been to the Smithsonian, but thanks for the offer.

          • Orange

            Not that one.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            Well, be more specific son!

    • Rimutaka

      Why does the first imply he is really big and spread out, doesn’t for me. It implies that where’s there’s a somewhere, God’s there. You’ve used a limited definition of everywhere IMO.

      Muslims have a saying “There is no God but God” God is neither he or she, personification of God is a particularly Christocentric view.

    • Bunswalla

      “It’s an interesting observation that many of the modern “angry atheists” fails to make in their keenness to recreate god in their own finite image.”

      Er, pardon? Atheists of any disposition believe there are no gods (in fact we’re both atheists – I just believe in one fewer god than you do!), so what are you talking about recreating god in their own image?

      If there are no gods, how does the issue of what image they might or might not be arise?

      • James

        A lot of god botherers really can’t understand that we don’t believe in god(s). Due to being brainwashed at an early age into worshiping god(s) they simply can not conceive of somebody not believing in god(s) and think that we are being willful. To some of them it is like us standing at a beach saying we don’t believe in the sea – obviously we believe, but are simply pretending otherwise.

        • Eiselmann

          Funny thing ,a couple of atheists I know , they have had near death experiences in the last few years and each time have called out to God when all hope seemed lost. Now I’m sure many atheists would never do such a thing but I do love irony and theres little that is more ironic then someone who doesn’t believe God exists calling out for his help when you’re in danger of snuffing it…
          in the end each to their own.

          • Mike

            Then they wern’t atheists but rather agnostics (fence sitters).

          • Eiselmann

            I did point that out when they told me, they weren’t happy, guess there are a number of people whos lack of faith isn’t quite as lacking as they would like to believe. :-)

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            Maybe they weren’t being particularly sincere; I routinely go ‘oh god’, jesus christ, etc, but as an expostulation rather than any indication of belief.
            Of course, people busy with near death experiences do rather tend to be absolutely sincere, don’t they…

          • Bunswalla

            I too love irony and what’s even more ironic is calling out to a god that doesn’t exist, expecting him/her/it to save you.

        • Orange

          Well you’re missing the point again, which was exactly my point. Many people (deliberately?) misdefine god in finite terms before starting an angry rant about him.

          • James

            How can you misdefine something that doesn’t exist? That is my point – you are talking about misdefinition and not understanding when I am saying that I simply do not believe in any form of supreme being or god – in any shape, form, or even as a concept.

  • unitedtribes

    Usually do my xmas shopping at the all night service station on xmas eve.

    • OhopeBeachBugger

      At least you do it, aye.

    • 4077th

      I hear ya…I used to love Christmas shopping, now I can’t get it over with fast enough.

      • dyannt

        Why bother then? Guilt? or wanting people to think kindly of you? :-)

        • 4077th

          I only buy for my Kids. The rest of it is just commercial nonsense. My wife gets her Christmas present, birthday present and all others on the same night every year wether she likes it or not.. :-)

  • ratesarerevolting

    Yes ……. and on another note LBIAFC !

  • 4077th

    God = A fairytale to extract money and subservience from the weak.

    • tspoon

      AGW being its secular equivalent. At least deist religions only mooch off their own believers.

      • Rimutaka

        Really, I though capitalism it’s secular equivalent.

        Capitalism = A fairytale to extract money and subservience from the weak. Sounds right.

        • Scarily so :)

        • LabTested

          glad you acknowledge that under Capitalism the weak have money.

        • 4077th

          Clever but nothing to do with “God”

        • Mike

          Unlike communism where the weak have nothing except that which the state gives them.

          • Polish Pride

            Yes because their are only two options on anything in this world.

            God vs No God

            Capitalism or Communism

            Left or Right

            “Unlike communism where the weak have nothing except that which the state gives them.”

            Unlike the Resource Based Economy where all people have access to far more whenever they need it.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            Oy PP, qualify that. Under the THEORETICAL RBE. Remember, communism was SUCH a good idea too. In theory.

          • Polish Pride

            Yes correct under the theoretical RBE designed specifically to meet the needs of mankind yes.

            Communism (like Capitalism) was never designed to meet the needs of mankind and was destined to fail at some point….The real question is do we want to get back into this today ;)

          • Mike

            It’s true capitalism is not ideal but it’s the most successful system mankind has come up with so far.

          • Polish Pride

            just a slight correction: It is the most successful system mankind has implemented so far.

          • Mike

            “Unlike the Resource Based Economy where all people have access to far more whenever they need it”

            In this scenario these economies are more likely to be capitalist in nature rather than communist/totalitarian.

            For example with middle eastern oil based economies the vast majority of their populations are desparately poor because the elite keep all the resources and profits to themselves.

          • Polish Pride

            I do see RBE working similarly to Capitalism without the money and the need for exchange. E.g you need food you go to the . supermarket. There might be more online ordering of products with similar lead times (and over time shorter) as under Capitalism.

          • LabTested

            ahh, but in a Resource Based Economy who decides if people actually ‘Need’ what they say they need. for example. I need some gold, a shit load of booze & some weed. Who are you to say that I do not need these resources. So when can I get access to them?

          • Polish Pride

            . By and large you do. But there would need to be societal agreement on acceptable use of some resources potentially
            Don’t see an issue with the booze or the weed. If you were to say you wanted (as an extreme example) everything in your home replaced with solid gold (floor, lounge suite, taps, benches, bed, y’know everything) then apart from calling the men in white coats it might not be deemed a good use of gold resources by the computer programmes used for resource allocation and monitoring. They might be able to using 3D printing produce whatever you want to look like gold thus giving the same effect. Failing that they’d give you gold mining equipment and suggest a few locations…..

            Extreme examples like this are good because there will always be a number of loons that will come up with something ridiculous (to others) and the system needs a way of dealing with it. Not saying you are one by the way and I appreciate the example.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            Dude, the ‘decisions by committee’ would mean nobody ever gets anything (except, perhaps, members of the committee).

        • OhopeBeachBugger

          Now here’s a problematic analogy!

      • Mike

        Islam requires that non-believers pay a tax (jizya) in exchange for being allowed to live.

        • tspoon

          Secular religions resemble Islam. There’s a recommendation.

  • Rimutaka

    Yes…..and on another note people round these parts sure love to flog dead horses. Interestingly “The first recorded use of the expression (to flog a dead horse) with its modern meaning is by British politician and orator John Bright, referring to the Reform Act of 1867, which called for more democratic representation in Parliament, an issue about which Parliament was singularly apathetic.” (Wiki) Some things never change eh.

    • Muffin

      I think Len is flogging his dead horse mayoralty on a shortened course

      • cows4me

        He’s probably flogging something else these days, I’m picking Lenny is on rations at the moment.

      • cows4me

        He’s probably flogging something else these days, I’m picking Lenny is on rations at the moment.

  • Just about out of coverage area, flying into Ureweras for 5 days chasing deer, have a good weekend folks ;)

    • 4077th

      Watch out for short brown fellas sporting graffiti all over their faces…

      • Tuhoe are great hosts. Spent a fun long weekend there. Just show a little respect and be polite, and the rest takes care of itself.

        • Dick Brown

          You have gone up in my estimation Petal; not saying the original estimation was bad or anything but this attitude should be acknowledged.

          Tuhoe are extraordinarily interesting people. i

          • 4077th

            Lips firmly pressed agains’t the Mods arse…

          • Possibly. I just don’t accept the whole Tuhoe MSM generated image as savages. It’s not correct and it isn’t fair.

            I’m as non-maori as they come, but I have lived 22 years of my formative life in South Auckland going to decile 1 schools.

            I have been the minority for most of that time, and always felt at home.

            A lot of what you get from people is simply what you send out reflected back at you.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            True that. Down here in Whakatane/Ohope, most of the Maori you will encounter are friendly, hospitable sorts. Right down to the chap who was busted with a massive pot growing operation right next door to me!

          • AnonWgtn

            Was that Michael Cullen by chance increasing his pension and Director’s fees.

          • 4077th

            “A lot of what you get from people is simply what you send out reflected back at you.”

            This is true of Mr Iti.

          • Hazards001

            You and Len Brown eh bro? And you went to school since decile schools were invented? Chur. That makes you about 16 eh cuz?

          • No bro. I’m from the 5th form certificate and bursary generation. We had “Forms” man, not years.

          • Hazards001

            “but I have lived 22 years of my formative life in South Auckland going to decile 1 schools.”

          • What’s wrong with using a term relevant to the way schools are labelled now to refer to a school I attended back then?

            Maybe this will help. David Lange was my local MP. I’ve had a school prize or two from him before he became PM.

          • Hazards001

            OK. I thought that was a bit of a stretch and was going to try explain..then got lost in the next story.
            The simple fact is the decile thing offends my sensibilities if you like.
            Introduced by the She Beast all it is is another class label. Something she did very well was putting people into boxes. I never went to a top end school either.

            And never really cared. But I had the same education opportunities as every other kid. The whole who’s school the left deem to have money is a crock of shit as is the way they are funded.

            Because I work hard and my kids live in a better area (I as it happens I don’t live in the same area…I can’t afford too) I have to fork out more coin to my ex to help keep the kids in the same activities as their peers?

            My kids go to decile (choke) 10 schools and quite frankly if the eldest one doesn’t pull her head out of her arse she will get her job in broadcasting all right..she’ll be broadcasting “Would you like fries to go with that?”

            As for Lange I have prize I’d have liked to have given that cunt!

        • 4077th

          I’m sure the majority of them are and I have met a few. Only one springs to mind that if I had a choice, I would rather spend a whole day up to my neck in shit than 5 minutes with Mr Iti.

        • Having a rifle in your hand makes people real respectful

          • I suspect the Tuhoe Revolutionary Army was stood down while we were there :)

    • richard.b

      They might dooc you pay Trav……..

      • Public humiliation is a more likely outcome.

        Note: never send photos to anyone

        • Especially photos of no dead animals…bet his rifle stays a virgin

          • 3 full days in the middle of the Ureweras, choppered in and out… if he doesn’t come back with anything that had a heart beat even *I* will be ashamed to be associated with him.

            I know he’s taken some possum traps so in an emergency he can smear some possum blood over his rifle.

    • cows4me

      Don’t forget your blue camo :-)

    • cows4me

      Don’t forget your blue camo :-)

  • OhopeBeachBugger

    On the god question. The premise is VERY faulty. Who says god is everywhere? And of course, is assumes that god actually is, which I believe, is far from settled!

  • Muffin

    This is like arguing over the existence of the tooth fairy

    • Rimutaka

      Except that half the world doesn’t believe in the tooth fairy, and most of the worlds cultures weren’t built on a belief in the tooth fairy. Your analogy is wrong. Atheism’s as much a religion as theism.

      • Muffin

        Bollocks not believing in some other groups made up deity does not make you part of the club.

        • Bunswalla

          Indeed – neither is theism a religion.

      • Bunswalla

        Arguing that because “half the world believes” in anything it is true is incredibly bad logic. A bit like tspoon arguing that religion is less of a scam than AGW because people believe it willingly.

        I understand that the entire premise of gods and religion requires a suspension of disbelief on a truly epic scale, but down here in the real world we prefer facts and logic that makes sense – please try harder.

        • Rimutaka

          Logic not your strong point, I was not arguing that because someone believes that something is true makes it true, rather that if 1/2 the world believes something to be true it’s worthy of debate. But I’m not a member of the closed minds society. And fyi, I believe that anyone who claims to live in the ‘real world’ that it’s sufficient evidence that they clearly don’t.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            You arguably gave up your right to logic when you suspended it to believe in an imaginary sky fairy.

          • Rimutaka

            lol…now where on earth did you get that idea, I know, you made it up. Comprehension obviously not your strong point, I wonder how much of your life is based on erroneous assumptions. By your posts it would seem quite a lot. But that’s just an assumption eh.

          • Muffin

            jeez…….. pot kettle much

          • Bunswalla

            Kind of proved you are a member of the closed minds society by your last statement – neatly contradicting yourself.

            Care to have another go at logic, Einstein?

          • Rimutaka

            Your failure to understand basic philosophical concepts is clear evidence that entering into a battle of wits with you is fighting with an unarmed opponent. Not worth my time and effort. Cheers.

      • OhopeBeachBugger

        Don’t be ridiculous. In three sentences, you’ve made an impressive number of mistakes.
        1. How many people has belief in the Tooth Fairy killed, oppressed or otherwise interfered with their quality of life?
        2. Nobody ‘believes’ in atheism. We just believe in one less god than you do. The absence of something doesn’t make it something.
        3. Argumentum ad populum. Just because a lot of people believe it, doesn’t make it true. I’d say half the world DOES believe in the tooth fairy (but they are under 10 years old)…but nobody accepts the TF as being real.
        4. How is his analogy wrong? Two imaginary beings most definitely can, logically, be compared. How does one has more currency than the other?

        • 4077th

          Game, set and match!

        • “1. How many people has belief in the Tooth Fairy killed, oppressed or otherwise interfered with their quality of life?”

          For a while, at least one.

          Mr 7 put a tooth under his pillow but neglected to tell his parents. Some days later he wanders in and says he thinks the Tooth Fairy is dead.

          Long story short, she was waiting for the 2nd tooth to come out so she only had to do one trip.

          Even the Tooth Fairy is concerned about her carbon footprint – bless her.

        • Muffin

          My favourite is the family guy episode where Brian and Stu
          are traveling between parallel universes and happen upon this fantastic one,
          perfect in every way. What’s different is that religion hadn’t held back human
          development for 2 thousand years.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            And yessir that is what religion does. Until it is discarded, humanity will remain a very primitive species.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            And yessir that is what religion does. Until it is discarded, humanity will remain a very primitive species.

        • Hazards001

          Whooo hooo..it’s feed the troll day..and from the looks of it so far he’s on Steak and Caviare today :)

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            I’ll take that as a badge of pride, thanks Hazards. And a happy Friday to you, sir.

          • Hazards001

            I hope you realise the troll reference isn’t in regards to you?

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            Haha, no I did not realise that at all (you had replied to me, not to Rimutaka). I had wondered why you were ostensibly accusing me of being a troll – didn’t think I was really trolling. Anyway, all good and I still wish you a good Friday, sir!

          • Hazards001

            Cheers. It was a good day. Lots achieved.
            Yes, don’t feed trolls is in reference to Rimutaka.(So in my admittedly obtuse way I was meaning that this page had given him lots of fun baiting people..ergo caviare & steak..well fed)

            All it does is come here to start an argument. Typical lefty.

            Hope yours went well also.

  • Bart67

    If God is everywhere, then he is also in the Ngati Whatua room, and he will not be happy with someone, a someone who insists he is only answerable to God. Apparently heart attacks are rather painful. I wonder if the Almighty was sending you a little reminder a few years ago Len!

  • I know the Bible and particularly the Old Testament very well – better than most Christians – in fact I challenged a Pastor to a debate on National TV and he can invite his colleagues from other denominations – this is yet to happen in due course.. I ran away from the church in 2008 never to return again and since, as part of my work, had to rescue a few victims of the church. Of course I am generalising now however I have firsthand experience of up to 10 different denominations and networks. I now follow my life’s purpose in tune with the clues from the universe. Now that I am safe to express my spiritual viewpoints and experiences, I have met so many real compassionate people who live by the values of God/god, whether he or she or it. My work also involves working with Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists – they have never judged me or tried to ‘save’ me. If the church wanted to impact the world then it is time they stop judging the world. From my experience, all the churches preach against each other. If they can’t agree on who God is, why persecuting those who have a much bigger understanding of God?

    • OhopeBeachBugger

      Of course they work against each other. It is necessary to lay claim to the ‘one true god’ to secure for yourself the most sheep. More sheep = more cash + power. And the chrisjans even call ’em that. Sheep. What a bunch of mushheads.

    • Steve (North Shore)

      Mine is bigger than yours – ego. Len knows about this, he preaches to the Auckland Ratepayer

  • Connie Lingus

    This is my favourite argument with all the religious collectors that come knocking on the door looking for money to feed the poor. I ask them if god is everywhere? To which they always reply “yes”. Then I ask them, if god is everywhere, why do you need a church? adding that religious groups are the wealthiest land owners on the planet and by selling their real estate could solve world hunger overnight. Watching them squirm after that is fantastic fun so I give them a dollar just for the entertainment.

    • Religious collectors?

      They occasionally brave my doorstep to see if I was looking for God and they are happy to introduce me, but I’ve yet to be asked for money.

      • Connie Lingus

        World Vision, Tear Fund etc All religious based aid collectors

        • Gotcha. Don’t tend to answer the door unless I’m expecting someone. I can truly not recall a single time I’ve opened the door for someone I wasn’t expecting, and I was better off for the experience afterwards.

          But that may just be a reflection on my dour outlook.

          Hmmm, I might have sign made. “Householder available by appointment only”. Will complement my “No Junk Mail” sign.

          And while I’m at it, GET OFF MY LAWN

          ADDED: I highly recommend requesting your landline to be unlisted. We may get 3 calls a year of people who are trying to sell us insurance. Not a single call from “Microsoft” yet. Highly recommend it. Being ‘in the phone book’ is overrated. People who know you know how to contact you. People who don’t know you shouldn’t be given free access.

          AND WHY ARE YOU NOT OFF MY LAWN YET?

          • Bunswalla

            No I think it’s more a reflection of your door outlook. Being able to see who’s coming up the drive is a good opportunity to hide.

          • It’s even funnier when the walk past the window having not been graced with someone answering the door and they make eye contact as they walk off the property.

            Speaking of which… I’m not home tonight.

            Damn imported “tradition” can get stuffed.

            It’s kinda cute when they are 5 and mum or dad stands at the letterbox. What I don’t appreciate is gangs of teenagers doing a pretty good impression of the Mongrel Mob Candy Collection Agency.

          • 4077th

            Show the little bastards a trick..buy one of those air horn in a can things..that’ll send them on their way!

          • Agent BallSack

            Need a friendly engraver?

          • I think someone with the right gear should make “Householder available by appointment only” signs and start a small side-line on TradeMe.

            On the other hand, we we brand it with a small Whaleoil Logo (also a No Junk Mail sign?), we could use it to raise some coin.

          • 4077th

            I’d be in..put me down for one!

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            Manufacture one, too, that says ‘fuck off and proselytise elsewhere’. Thanks.

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            “I can truly not recall a single time I’ve opened the door for someone I wasn’t expecting, and I was better off for the experience afterwards.”

            Fuck that’s funny :-D

          • 4077th

            It’s the perfect tactic but you need balls of steel if they can see you through the window! I have for many years looked forward to the day/s when I could eject a Jehovah’s Witless and his clan off my property and have a parting shot but every time it happens I am unable to be nasty. I want so much to tell them to fuck off and peddle their madness elsewhere but am forced to be nice..fuck it!

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            I have the same problem; the nastiest I ever was, was recently when my baby boy was crying in the background and STILL the god botherer thought his was the more pressing of the choice of encounters facing me…

          • OhopeBeachBugger

            As an aside, but hopefully an amusing one; when I was encouraging my lawn to grow some time back, I instructed a mate to ‘get off the grass’. He did so, but shot back ‘sure thing, Nancy Reagan’…

  • Col

    We don’t buy presents for each other 3 children and me and my partner, the price to post is more than the present?

  • Mike

    What I don’t get about creationists/religious nutters is that on the one hand they think it is ridiculous that the universe could have spontaneously appeared from nothing on it’s own (therefore something must have created it), but on the other hand have no problem believing that their supposed creator of the universe either always existed, or came into being by some other fashion that does not involve an even more powerful creator.

  • Tom

    ‘If God is everywhere”, what is the point of churches?

    • To meet like-minded people?

      • Ronnie Chow

        Yep , just like being ‘Maori’ . Without the group , people just meld into the population and it’s relative anonymity .
        That explains why so many stick with the ‘church’ of Labor , to increase and maintain their social standing within the group .

    • johnbronkhorst

      From my “atheist” perspective.
      Having actually read the bible ( a long time ago, so please no quizzes).
      Christianity preaches a concept and mode of behaviour and is actually against “false idols” which churches run the risk of becoming.
      Perhaps they are a way of “policing” the behaviour and reminding people of the behaviour that their religion expects.
      However this seems to have been corrupted in some of the muslim communities.

      • OhopeBeachBugger

        I also read that shit as a teenager. Realised what absolute bullshit it was, veering between the lurid and the fanciful, to the brutal and downright boring.

    • timemagazine

      There is no point of churches. They were created for church leaders to get wealthy,powerful and to have control over others. In the former communist countries they were a fountain of information for the secret police. And yes, I believe God is every where and in every single human being. Another reason He/She can’t be boxed into some building. No matter how grand.

  • jaundiced

    The Herald has a fluff piece on David Farrar.

    Q. People often think you and Cameron Slater (Whale Oil blogger) work in tandem for the National party – he’s the rabid version and you follow up with the rational stuff. Is that true?

    A. People always think if it’s centre right then it’s all grubby conspiracies and synchronised campaigns. It’s not. Absolutely we talk about stuff but when people ask me if I can influence Cam on something I say my success rate with that is about 3 per cent which is probably exaggerated by 2 per cent. If Kiwiblog and Whale Oil were British newspapers, I’m the Daily Telegraph and he’s the Daily Mail. How would I describe him? Unafraid of consequences

    • That should have been the same “12 questions” they asked of Slater, but they decided to munge that up – didn’t suit their narrative.

      As for “Unafraid of consequences”…

      uhuh.

      People fear being spied on by the GCSB.

      What they should really fear is Slaters’ attention. Much more intense and potentially damaging. The rules the GCSB need to follow are much more restrictive. Slater only has to stay within the law.

      Tick Tock Len. Don’t get comfy.

    • johnbronkhorst

      Yet the only grubby conspiracies and lies have been shown…..YES shown, to come from the LEFT side of politics…….”US bag men”, Crashing PRIVATE gatherings of National MP’s, “gone by lunchtime”, GCSB photos, systematic destruction of campaign posters, victimisation of support bases and individuals (eg Paul Henry and his Dicshit comments), Groser, etc etc

  • Phar Lap

    Seems in the latest Roy Morgan stats Lie-bour and Green Taleban supporters,have been turned off by the lies of Cunliffe and the wet back import commie Norman,and the wee fat tub of lard Turei.Both bully parties have taken a hit.

  • Jester

    3rd Form Maths

    • jaundiced

      Not quite. Read it again – that’s $465k above its capital value of $750k = $1.2m

    • 4077th

      D’OH!

    • OhopeBeachBugger

      Don’t give me a headache. I’m half man, half machine and half not good at fractions.

  • Dick Brown

    God is a fascinating concept and a brilliantly executed one if I may say so.

    Effectively all previous religions rolled into one with a CEO, the Abrahmic religions are a tour de force of mass marketing.

    The key concept of God as it pertains to the debate question is that He is the past, the present, and everything that will be.

    So everything is pre-ordained by Him. This flies in the face of any choices we as individuals make but there is sufficient “wriggle-room” in the scriptures to have us arguing about that for centuries.

    So the answer is pretty simple; as far as argument’s sake goes yes, by definition, we humans are part of God.

  • Pete George

    A suggestion that the Psychoactive Substances Act approach be extended to cover other drugs as an alternative to the failed “war on drugs”.

    Although the Psychoactive Substances Act was intended to deal with that issue only, and not to have wider application, it does occur to me that, if after a period of time, it is shown to be working effectively, it could well become the model by which narcotic drugs, currently controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act, are regulated for the future. The yardstick of level of risk – based on sound pharmacological and toxicological evidence – would become the determinant of availability, not public sentiment or prejudice.

    I am not suggesting a revolution, but simply observing that the regulatory regime introduced for psychoactive substances could well have wider application and that we should not be averse to that possibility. After all, most experts now concede the so-called “war” on drugs has failed, and new initiatives are required.

    An idea with merit worth considering further? Others might be surprised who is considering this, but not me.

    • Just a small administrative note Pete, thanks for joining back in. At this level, consider things back to normal, with linking privileges earned. Yes, I do notice.

  • dyannt

    Just in case any of my family or friends are on this blog – just a reminder – I don’t ‘do’ Xmas.

  • 4077th

    More Python…Crackpot Religions LTD.

  • Kimbo

    “If God is everywhere, aren’t we all, by definition, a part of God?”

    No.

    In Christian theology God’s presence is defined by two aspects – his transcendence, and his imminence.

    In ordinary language that means he is separate from his creation, but he also has the capacity by an act of his will to draw close to and interact with it.

    However, even when he draws close, there are two ways.

    One is in common grace, which all receive, e.g.,the rains fall as a result of his generosity, the crops grow as a result of his love, we are nourished by his creation.

    The second way is via special grace which ultimately saves from the effects of sin. This grace was, given first to the covenant nation of Israel, and then to those who have faith in Christ.

    Thus endeth the lesson…

    • Kimbo, I love that answer. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

  • Polish Pride

    If God is everywhere, aren’t we all, by definition, a part of God?

    I’d go a step further. If God is everywhere and therefore in everything… so in every cell and every particle….. aren’t we therefore all God?

    • OhopeBeachBugger

      Not me mate, not me!

      • Polish Pride

        Ahhhh to be humble and without ego … such a god like quality :)

        • OhopeBeachBugger

          Oh jesus hehehe

    • 4077th

      Len Brown thinks so!

    • Kimbo

      That is the central premise of Hinduism, I believe. It is just that we haven’t yet attained consciousness of the fact – as per OhopeBeachBugger’s response below.

      Personally I’ll stick with the response that I heard one Christian preacher made to the claims of Hinduism: “Informing someone they are God is like telling a beggar he is food”,

      • Polish Pride

        Well throughout history the practice of cannibalism would provide evidence of truth to the Christian Preachers claim even though he did not intend it that way

        • Kimbo

          He he.

          Funny you should say that – the early Christians were accused by the Romans of cannibalism, as a result of misunderstanding regarding the bread of the Eucharist – “take, eat, this is my body”.

  • john Doe

    Re the intro.
    ….one Mayor a wanking..

    …two..

  • Steve (North Shore)

    Btw my WhaleOil tee shirts arrived today.
    Some of you supporters could be a bit more assertive – like getting your own and wearing it in public

  • IWantToBeLikeMallardOneDay

    Pantheism and deism are different concepts. A deity can be present everywhere, but if the deity is everything, then it is an immanent deity rather than a transcendent one. Ask an atheist… :-)

  • Ministry of Justice

    If time is everywhere, aren’t we all, by definition, a part of time?

    If space is everywhere, aren’t we all, by definition, a part of space?

    No.

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