Three dead as siege ends in fire fight [UPDATED]

Different media are showing different levels of caution in extrapolating events.  Some of what you read below hasn’t had official confirmation.  Australian police will provide the next update at 7 am  (9 am NZ time).  This is what happened after 16 hours of the stand-off:

UPDATE:  More media are confident to report three are dead, the gunman and two hostages.  But no further details are available.  (One News says the third hostage died of a heart attack while in hospital)

Police have confirmed that three people have died following #sydneysiege. Four people were injured
The injuries are reported as not being life threatening.

Police storm in after gunman shoots a hostage

A swarm of heavily armed police stormed a cafe in the heart of downtown Sydney just after 2 am (4 am NZ), ending a siege where a gunman had been holding an unknown number of people hostage for more than 16 hours.

A police spokesman confirmed “the operation is over,” but would not release any further details about the fate of the gunman or his remaining captives.

It increasingly appears that police stormed the café after the gunman shot a hostage.

In the ensuing firefight, the gunman was killed and several hostages injured.

This has yet to be confirmed by police.

After a flurry of loud bangs, police swooped into the Lindt Chocolat Cafe shortly after five or six hostages were seen running from the building.

After the police moved in, one weeping woman was helped out by the officers and at least two other people were wheeled out on stretchers.

A Sydney hospital official says one hostage is receiving treatment for gunshot wound to the leg.

Channel 7 reporter, Chris Reason, who has been reporting live from the 7 newsroom just 50m from the café, said he had been told the events that prompted police to enter the building.

He said a call came from police communications that there was a “hostage down”, prompting the officers to storm the building without warning.

The dramatic scene unfolded shortly after the gunman was identified by local media as Iranian-born Man Haron Monis, who is facing charges including sexual assault and accessory to murder in separate cases.

 

Man Haron Monis

sydneysiegetues4

Monis has long been on officials’ radar. Last year, he was sentenced to 300 hours of community service for writing offensive letters to families of soldiers killed in Afghanistan. He was later charged with being an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife. Earlier this year, he was charged with the sexual assault of a woman in 2002. He has been out on bail on the charges.

“This is a one-off random individual. It’s not a concerted terrorism event or act. It’s a damaged goods individual who’s done something outrageous,” his former lawyer, Manny Conditsis, told Australian Broadcasting Corp.

“His ideology is just so strong and so powerful that it clouds his vision for common sense and objectiveness,” Conditsis said.

Throughout the day, several people were seen with their arms in the air and hands pressed against the window of the cafe, and two people holding up a black flag with the Shahada, or Islamic declaration of faith, written on it.

The Shahada translates as “There is no god but God and Muhammad is his messenger.” It is considered the first of Islam’s five pillars of faith, and is similar to the Lord’s Prayer in Christianity. It is pervasive throughout Islamic culture, including the green flag of Saudi Arabia. Jihadis have used the Shahada in their own black flag.

 

– AP, AAP

 


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  • Alright

    ZB is now saying three dead.

    • They are pushing that it is “now confirmed”, but there are no other details and can’t see the source of their info.

      • sheppy

        One news says 3,
        Last one a heart attack in hospital

        • So they do. Possibly a heart attack.

        • Fredd Dagg

          Heart attack in hospital… so doesn’t count? Even though he might have got another 20 years without this extreme stress?

          • [MOD] Eh? You’re the first one to push that point of view. Stop trolling.

        • Teletubby

          I guess in time we will know but I’m dubious about this heart attack story. I happened to wake up at 4.10 this morning and put the TV just after the police went in. The heart attack story started out as one hostage had died in the cafe as the result of a heart attack and it began very early in proceedings. Possibly before they even had people at the hospital. I remember thinking at the time that it was just to quick to say it was a heart attack. I guess it will all come out in the wash

  • Not born in Australia – instead, an immigrant. This blog’s repeated calls for a review of how we select Muslim immigrants seems to be spot on.

    • Reaper

      A refugee, apparently Nice. They open their country to help people out, and get his sort of behaviour.

  • john Doe

    “This was a one off random individual” True but he was perusing a course of action followed by millions. They will be cheering in the streets in some parts of the Middle East and London and Paris for that matter.

  • Pete

    The media can frame it any way they like, this is terrorism, plain and simple.

    • sarahmw

      Yes it is, sadly media are trying to downplay what is quite obvious. MSM need to check how the word ‘terrorism/terrorist is defined. Once the words”hostage down’ were spoken all bets were off. Had to go in and take him. It appears he had executed a hostage.

  • Hawke’s Bay Today finds its local angle (pic)

  • Radio Live newsroom continue to call him “a gunman”

  • Eiselmann

    Born in Iran ….that would make him Shia wouldn’t it? What did he want an ISIS flag for? Lots of questions and sadly amongst those questions is …what next ? because , there will be a next hostage taking, a next act of terror against a land and people who have offered shelter and a better life….and heres the thing the next event in this part of the world may not have to be in Australia.
    Thoughts and prayer to the hostages and police involved sounds like at the end the guy had lost control of the situation inside the store, which makes the police action so much more impressive , sadly too many times in the past and in other countries more hostages would be lost.

  • Michael

    Man Haron Moris was a wannabe hero but it turns out he was just a cowardly thug. He can’t get any message across without violence.

    Gandhi made change happen, change that has lasted. Moris will now be remembered as a murderer and will not be mourned.

  • Alright

    Got asylum in 1999. Kills at least two people, costs tens of millions of dollars, wrecks hundreds of lives, sexually abuses dozens, conspires to kill his former wife, brings a whole religion into further disrepute.

    Out on bail.

    Why have I got little hair left?

    • sheppy

      The bleeding heart liberals have a lot to answer for!
      It’s a shame he wasn’t taken out with a snipers bullet through the window earlier in the siege.

      • Teletubby

        As I understand things the building was formerly a bank so has very heavy glass. There were concerns about the potential for deflection so the snipers were not used

        • sheppy

          Ah – thanks for the clarification.

        • Justsayn

          I get the impression the “former bank may have had toughened glass hence no shot” angle is just media speculation, speculation that will prove false. Four things may have persuaded them they could talk him out:

          – he didn’t kill anyone in the first hour: ISIS claimed attacks elsewhere seem to go along the lines of make sure people are watching then kill people as publicly as possible, that didn’t happen once he knew he had the world’s attention;

          – he was alone so: He’d have no opportunity to rest so they could wait him out;

          – they might not have been sure that he wasn’t wired to explode; and

          – when they discovered who he was they knew that it was unlikely to have anything to do with ISIS or the like (in a direct sense).

  • timemagazine

    Why was such a dangerouse and deranged man on bail? I hope the media and all the politicians will find the courage and call him what he really is-a jihadi terrosist.

    • I wouldn’t want to be the judge who decided to let this nutbar back on the street pending a trial.

    • Alright

      ….because of dangerous and deranged politicians.

    • Teletubby

      It leaves me wondering about what kind of nut bars we have wandering around on bail here

      • Justsayn

        I agree we grant bail too lightly, but let’s not go overboard.

        For every nutbar out on bail there are far more equally dangerous nutbars that are completely free. I’m more worried about the ones we don’t know about.

        To the year ended 30 June 14 there were 55 murders / attempted murders. How many do you think were committed by people out on bail? I cannot recall any being reported in the media but there may have been one or two, perhaps the answer is none.

        • Teletubby

          Now that’s a damn fine question. The only stats I can find is a two year old report that said over the previous five years 23 of those convicted for murder were on bail, so about 4.5 a year. While I know it’s not entirely accurate to do so, we can at least get an approximation if I use your number of 55 murders a year we get about 8.2% of murders are committed by people on bail. About 2% of NZers are granted bail every year.
          And yes you are right I’m also worried about all the nutters out there but it seems to me we can reduce the number if we tighten up on bail ( and parole for that matter )

          • Justsayn

            It would be good to know the real stats, maybe the Sensible Sentencing Trust already has them… Are you out there Ruth?

            It might also depend a little why they were on bail – whether the pending charge is violence related.

  • steve and monique

    Two or three dead. Sadly for some families this Xmas, that is one, or two, to many. Our thoughts go out to the families of the victims of this lunatic. And to the Govt of this country, and others. Sort out immigration from these countries who harbour radical religious idiots. We want to feel safe when we go out of our doors.

  • Brian Badonde

    This will put the cat amongst the pigeons on the gun laws. Would this have happened in America with the gun laws they have there? To me this is a vote for being able to carry a gun at all times. At least then you stand a chance.

  • Whafe

    The next days will be an amazing feast watching the MSM play this down as nothing to do with terrorism, a one off, don’t judge etc etc etc etc…..

    Give me strength

    • Strap yourself in for New Zealand’s own “terrorism expert” Paul Buchannan who says this has nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing at all.

      • burns_well_eh

        Has the report been confirmed yet, that one of his demands was for someone to bring him an ISIS flag? If so, that would tend to end all arguments I would have thought – not that there are any credible ones in any case.

        • Teletubby

          I have seen one of the videos he had the hostages make listing his demands and I can confirm that there was definitely a request for an ISIS flag in that video

        • Justsayn

          No doubt his religions played a part, but he does seem to have been motivated by other things as well.

          You can take the flag thing two ways. You mention one, but doesn’t it also show that he didn’t own an ISIS flag, didn’t think to obtain one in advance, or at the very least that the flag was a bit of an after-thought?

          • burns_well_eh

            I guess we’ll never get the opportunity to find out, as thankfully he’s been permanently removed from society. But you can still be a terrorist and not be particularly good at your ‘job’ – witness Richard Reid the shoe bomber.

            The fact he firstly took an islamic flag which is generally acknowledged to have been appropriated by radicals and terrorists, and then asked for an ISIS flag demonstrate to anyone without a bias that he was a politically and religiously-motivated terrorist.

        • At this stage I believe one of his demands was for it to be declared a terrorist incident. This may explain why there has been such a determined collective cooperation not to do so.

      • Intrigued

        It looked like abject terror on the faces of those hostages to me. If the MSM and so called experts try that line it’ll only be the willingly blind idiots that will buy it. But yes you’re bound to be right that they’ll try to assert that.

        It is terrorism pure and simple in one of its many guises and just for even a moment imagining how those hostages must have been feeling at any time during the ordeal and putting myself in their shoes brings it all home for me.

        To say that it’s “not terrorism” is to deny their fear and ignore the reality. Part of the IS strategy being propagated throughout the West is the “lone wolf” attack. This is a wake up call for us all.

    • Mrs_R

      His former lawyer states, “His ideology is just so strong and so powerful that it clouds his vision for common sense and objectiveness,”. I’m not sure what the official definition of terrorism is or whether he meets the criteria, but he certainly meets the definition of evil radical Islamist nut-job. My heart weeps for the those affected by this tragedy and this should serve as a warning that there should be zero tolerance of those currently known to authorities for their radical beliefs. Incredibly sad.

  • Reid

    Stuff reports last Friday he’d failed to get 50 sex-abuse charges overturned. Then on Monday he does this. He was by himself. So far there is no indication he had any help.

    All that to me based on current information indicates he was your common-or-garden selfish nutbar who thinks life owes him a living and who doesn’t give a stuff about anyone else.

    In other words, not a terrorist attack, at all.

    But no doubt, this won’t stop media painting it as such.

    • sheppy

      He still wanted an ISIS flag, so he wanted to be part of it, isn’t that how it starts.

      • Reid

        Just cos he says he’s a terrorist doesn’t make him one.

        A terrorist attack requires an organisation behind it. A lone nutjob with a chip on his shoulder doesn’t count.

        • Eiselmann

          He said he had two bombs planted around Sydney , that would have spread terror beyond his little hostage taking…that makes him a terrorist, even if nothing else did..

          • Reid

            IF that’s true then unless he had others helping him it still doesn’t make him a terrorist, it still makes him a lone nutjob with a chip in his shoulder, albeit one whose read the junior guide to how to pretend to be a terrorist.

          • Eiselmann

            Why would he not be a terrorist unless he had help from others? ..blowing up bombs can be done remotely …ever heard of a timer? This man spread terror by saying that he had 2 bombs planted around the city..he spread terror therefore.terrorist.

          • Cadwallader

            Exactly! In the Labour caucus Cam may well be regarded as a lone terrorist. I hope that is indeed the case. LOL.

          • burns_well_eh

            What rubbish – there’s no golden rule that says a terrorist can’t act alone, or has to be a member of a group. Why are you trying to downplay his actions?

        • sheppy

          Taking people hostage and then Shooting one of them seems close enough, no matter how it’s framed they don’t have a place in civilised society.

          • Reid

            Nutjobs have always been around. If this was the 1800’s, Jack the Ripper would have been called a terrorist. Wouldn’t he.

          • sheppy

            nope because he didn’t upset the lives of many people at once…

          • burns_well_eh

            No he would have been called a serial killer – what are you on?

          • Wheninrome

            Still created terror in the district and among the people who became scared to go out at night in Whitechapel.

          • burns_well_eh

            As has every serial killer including the Boston Strangler, Son of Sam etc etc. I guess sensible people can see the distinction between being a serial killer and taking people hostage, displaying islamic flags, asking for others, writing to the families of dead soldiers accusing them of being child-killers and so on.

            Would you like to explain to the hostages that this person wasn’t really a terrorist?

            Why are you minimising/defending the actions of this person?

          • Wheninrome

            Of course he was a terrorist as are others who create terror in the wider population for whatever reason.

          • burns_well_eh

            Funny, Jack the Ripper has never been called a terrorist in 126 years, but I guess everyone’s wrong and you’re right.

            My wife saw a spider this morning. She’s scared of spiders. That spider is a terrorist.

          • Wheninrome

            My comment “of course he was a terrorist” refers to the 2nd to last paragraph of your comment where you ask whether I would explain to the hostages that this person wasn’t a terrorist. The individual in Sydney was a terrorist in my understanding of the word, i.e. of course he was a terrorist.

          • burns_well_eh

            We agree he was a terrorist. I disagree that Jack the Ripper was a terrorist, and I think taking the position that “everybody in the world who has ever done anything that caused fear in the general population for whatever reason” is a terrorist only serves to minimise the actions of this terrorist nutjob.

            And I wonder why you would want to do that.

          • Wheninrome

            The beauty of NZ, we are allowed to agree to disagree.

          • jaundiced

            So if there’s more than one nut job they’re terrorists. But if they all decide to go out and do their own thing, they’re not. Why are you even playing these word games? He committed an act of terror for political/ religious purposes.

        • unitedtribes

          So a lone nut job terrorist then

        • Cadwallader

          Why? I think lone-nutjobs are terrorists too. Judge these weirdos by their actions and not whether they’ve attended terrorist school or not!

        • Justsayn

          I kinda agree with you Reid.

          The evidence suggests that he was a lone nutjob, but one for whom religion may have played a part in the motivation (or at least may have been a factor in his rationalising that his intentions were appropriate). A bit of bandwagoning if you like.

          Having said that, the “lone wolf” terrorist is just what ISIS has been calling for – encouraging supporters to take action of their own design.

        • Reaper

          The Herald reports:

          ” In September, Islamic State group spokesman Abu Mohammed al-Adnani issued an audio message urging so-called “lone wolf” attacks abroad, specifically mentioning Australia. Al-Adnani told Muslims to kill all “disbelievers,” whether they be civilians or soldiers.”

          So they are encouraging this sort of thing.

      • Citizen

        Yes it is, he was creating publicity for them…and this publicity will appeal to others…the word “copy cat” comes to mind.

    • 1951

      Common-or-garden selfish nutbar who couldn’t contain himself to live with-in the laws of the country he resides. Saints don’t become terrorists.

      • Reid

        No-one’s saying he’s a Saint. Are they.

        • 1951

          But it is these sort of misfits that turn. It is this sort that are too willing to become radicalized and that’s the point. If we call a spade a spade. Make those associated with people who have such tendencies, be they family, friends, parishioners, responsible with keeping a close eye on them. Where is this guys family? Were there concerns registered with the police? That is what has to be done, no stigma will be attached to those who have tried their best to alert authorities.

        • Justsayn

          Therein rests a part of the problem: there will be a good number in this sad sick sectarian world that think he is.

    • Andy

      This may well be true, but Radical Islamism is a franchise operation and the conditions for entry seem pretty low

    • louie

      Sorry but I don’t recall any of the (many) kiddie fiddling Christians ever resorting to this sort of action after conviction. And spouting their religion while doing so. Tell us again how Islam is really the religion of peace.

  • intelligentes candida diva

    My deepest sympathy to the family(ies) of the deceased. My heart aches for you at this time when it is a time for Christians loving sharing and giving

    This mad man ought to have lost his right to live in Australia when he was convicted of his previous hate crime(letters to widows)

  • louie

    14K likes on his facebook page. Australia has a problem.

    • sarahmw

      All of us are sharing the same problem Do not be mistaken in thinking these people are not dangerous. They will wait for years planning, hypnotising young disenfranchised youth into carrying out that plan. Very organised group of people.

      • Michael Cosgrove

        Same as Whaleoil hypnotises all the old farts.

        • Wheninrome

          Now that is a really intelligent comment, I don’t think.

    • Michael Cosgrove

      “Like” doesn’t mean they like him, of course. A lot of those people will be wanting to see what he’s on about, including the local police, no doubt. I would have thought that was pretty obvious, and that could be from all over the world.

      • EvoDriver

        Can they not use the “follow” option in that case? Or, is that not the way it works?

        • Michael Cosgrove

          Not Facebook from what I can see.

      • phronesis

        I don’t actually enjoy looking at S&M kiddy porn Officer. I just like to keep an eye on what’s out there.

        Tui.

        • Michael Cosgrove

          You don’t thing this might not be just a slightly different situation?

    • Justsayn

      And I hope their version of the SIS checks out every single one of them.

  • sarahmw

    Is Reid a troll? just asking

    • Mark C

      So far I think he makes some valid points. It would be a shame if we all came on here with the same points of view.

  • Michael Cosgrove

    Of course he’s a terrorist, he’s a Muslim.
    If he was white he’d be mentally disturbed, otherwise he’d be a thug.

    • That was hard to read.

  • conwaycaptain

    Where are Norman and Material Girl on this?? Also Angry Andy and Winston??

    • Lemuzz

      Probably crawling into a deep hole

  • One News is losing the plot: 7 am New Zealand Dollars (pic)

    As far as I know the briefing is 7am local, 9 am NZ

    • burns_well_eh

      They lost the plot a while ago – even had Shahid Afridi scoring 41 for the Black Caps last in last night’s sports news.

  • Teletubby

    I guess every religion has its fair share of nut cases, the problem with this guy is his religion has encouraged violence and he has obliged. I’m thinking this guy is more of a deranged individual than a religious zealot BUT if he wasn’t a Muslim would this have happened, or would he have carried out some other atrocity?

  • Quinton Hogg

    To the innocent who died, via con dios.
    To the gunman, may your god judge you and find you wanting.
    To my untutored eye if ISIS had been involved any atrocity (such as beheading) would have been undertaken at the first available instance when the public and media were still on site to get maximum impact.
    The longer this event went the more it became apparent this guy was a lone nutter who happened to be a muslim of sorts.
    my 2 cents

  • All_on_Red

    Accused of helping to murder his ex wife. 50 sexual abuse charges and he.was.on.bail.

  • The Associated Press @AP
    BREAKING: Police say 34-year-old man and 38-year-old woman are among 3 dead in Sydney hostage crisis.

    • Andy

      Sorry for “liking” that comment. My condolences to all the bereaved, and thanks to the WO team for the excellent coverage

      • It’s going to end shortly. Cam is elsewhere in the country all day doing Freed interviews, and I have to take my 2nd boy to the doctor after having taken my 1st there yesterday, then I need to enroll my 1st into school, and then I have to … you don’t want to know.

        We’re so tired here, I saw Mrs Pete get out of the shower, put on her socks, and start putting on her shoes before putting her undies and leggings on.

        As a family we can’t wait for some down time, and I know the Freed team are running on vapour and dregs also.

        • Quinton Hogg

          Well done Cam & Pete and the other pixies that make whaleoil work.
          Your coverage was the first port of call for me most of yesterday.
          So much so I am surprised I got any work done at all.
          Give yourself a collective pat on the back and a day off or something.

  • ShoreRight

    I am moved by the look of terror on the faces of the escapees…..there lives will never be the same and of course the families of the fallen. Those people were terrorised the pictures tell it all …the Aussie media tell it a bit more like it is !

  • All_on_Red

    Saw this on the Daily Telegraph blog
    “Craig Stoker was walking down Phillip Street after buying a coffee in the Lindt Cafe when he bumped into the gunman.
    “He was wearing a black T-shirt with white writing on it and a headband and carrying a blue bag.
    “The bag bumped into me and there was something hard in it.
    “I said ‘watch where you are ****ing going’.
    “He turned round and said ‘do you want me to shoot you too?.’ I looked into his eyes and they were crazy,” said Mr Stoker, a father of four from Eastlakes…
    The bearded man was with two others who were similarly dressed.”

    What happened to the two others?

    • Michael_l_c

      If they exist they will b found.

    • Monito

      This is not surprise it seems a bizarre thing for one man on his own to attempt to pull off.

  • papagaya

    Storming the Lindt shop between 2 and 3am makes sense, as people are at their lowest ebb at this hour of the morning. So the gunman was at his most vulnerable. Also, there would have been pressure to resolve the situation before another day of lockdown in the CBD. The guy was vehement in his opposition to Australia’s involvement in Afghanistan, had written nasty letters to the widows of slain Australian soldiers, and wanted his Muslim flag displayed in the Lindt window. To those who say he was a lone wolf nutter and not a terrorist, I say: let’s put you in the Lindt shop with him and see if you still want to split hairs.

    • The police didn’t choose the time. They reacted to a hostage being shot by the gunman, I believe.

      • Teletubby

        The police commissioner has confirmed in his press conference that the decision to go in was based upon hearing shots fired in the building.

        • Bazza63

          That makes sense because watching the footage of the police going in I had some concerns/observations.
          1. The team did not seem to be too coordinated in their tactics, eg throwing stun grenades in while other team members were inside engaging the terrorist.
          This would impact the quality of their own shooters.
          2. Some of the team seemed to have standard barreled weapons which make it harder to use the rifle in a confined space.
          3. Should control of the operation go to the SAS once it is night so they can dictate when & how they go in instead of a tired, highly strung terrorist dictating the assault time by shooting someone.

          Still hats of to the team that went in, they saved lives & deserve all the support we can give them. My comments above are more aimed at the politicians who cut back training budgets & equipment procurement. They are the ones who tend to dictate the response, not the teams on the ground.

    • Wheninrome

      He is a terrorist because he created terror.

  • Citizen

    So I have asked my self repeatedly why this individual was allowed bail?

    • steve and monique

      Just thinking that myself. It sounds like Australia’s legal system is as confused as ours. There needs to be rules in place when any immigrant to another country commits a serious enough offence, then it’s back on a plane to your own homeland and immediate cancellation of passports. Immigration worldwide needs to be overhauled and for Heaven’s sake; close the borders, I know we can’t judge all by the actions of a few but when do you say enough is enough?, No one really knows who they can trust now.

      • Citizen

        Its been said before on here “dud Judges” This guy has over 50 allegations of sexual assault, was an accessory to the murder of his wife…and he’s out on bail!!

        • phronesis

          In some countries those offences would qualify him as a pillar of the community.

  • I watched quite a bit of the seige news yesterday afternoon on Sky News, and the interviews of Abbott, Scipione, and Burns. I was struck by how professional the Australian media were overall, and in their questions to the above. I couldn’t help thinking that if this awful event occured in NZ then large parts of our media would revel in an opportunity to attack and blame John Key and National, interviews of Norman, Goff, Minto et al would be non stop and sycophantic, and neither can I see them cooperating with Police to the same level whilst the seige was occuring. I appear to have a lower opinion on NZ’s media than I realised.
    I hope we never find out.

    • 1951

      Just a thought. I wonder how our Rachel handled this first thing this morning? I bet there was a determined avoidance of using the ‘T’ word.

    • MaryLou

      I was highly impressed with level of reporting and the maturity and lack of sensationalism on Sky News last night. It’s scary to know that reporters (journalists) in NZ could never show that type of restraint, and in their self-serving bust to be the first to report, would be highly unlikely to work with police in that manner. Maybe we should import some Aussies?

      • Speights Cold and Wet

        hell no – we already have one dumb import ie wussell

        • MaryLou

          Yes, but he’s not typical – the Aussies didn’t want him either!

    • Dave

      The Australian media were told to back off by police and authorities. they were banned from reporting anything about the gunman or his reasons, or the demands for a long time, the police controlled the situation, the media complied. My belief, by contrast had this been in NZ, a lot of the highly untrained and unskilled kiwi media would have broken rank and started publishing and hinting at who he was etc, just to create a headline, and in their own words, its in the public interest. Well done to WO for keeping it so clean.

  • Greg M

    I’m starting to get angry. Not that “punch your head in” angry, but a heaviness and resolve to hold those who enabled this to account. The hand wringing liberals. gutless politicians, and the judiciary need to be the ones going up the path to tell the families their loved one wont be home for Christmas.
    There needs to be an immediate halt to the importing of “refugees” until they renounce their murderous and intolerant beliefs, until then they can stay right where they are.This is our part of the world, and our way of life, and I reckon that’s worth fighting for.
    My heartfelt condolences go out to the families of the innocent victims.

    • Damon Mudgway

      Greg, I’m sure like me you’ll be thinking ‘thankfully the terrorist only had a shot gun”. From what I can deduce this appears to be the case. If he had had a semi or automatic weapon this would have been a LOT worse. Only an assumption on my part, but with hostages and police being wounded from shotgun fire, it seems a logical conclusion.

    • Elinor_Dashwood

      How would you propose to enforce and administer a requirement for refugees and other immigrants to “renounce their murderous and intolerant beliefs”?

      • Damon Mudgway

        Easy. No more refugees. The simple approach works best.

      • Greg M

        That will take considerable time to work out the details for a fair and equitable system. Until then, close the borders. Get the picture?

      • Euan Ross-Taylor

        I’ve been pondering this a bit lately. I would like to see every Muslim Cleric in NZ required to renounce violence against the citizens of the country in which they reside.(NZ) Any who refuse to should be either deported or closely monitored.

  • Old Gunner

    As well as enormous thanks to them, spare a thought also for the effects of these events on the members of the Police tactical squad. Like the hostages their lives too will never be the same again after those traumatic moments at the end of the siege.

    As for the individual’s letters to families of deceased soldiers ……. I’d better leave it at that I think.

  • Wheninrome

    A “lone wolf” getting on the band wagon, a nutter, whatever he is still a terrorist for causing terror. Different definitions do not solve the issue.
    The police had him under surveillance for some time, they would have had their reasons. (obviously facing charges for past deeds).
    The trouble is we don’t know when these lone individuals will decide to act. If there is a group the authorities seem to be able to understand their plans of attack more easily as to the how when and where, the surveillance information creates a picture.
    There is no picture in the case of a lone individual.

  • Cadwallader

    I was OZ born but have lived in NZ out of choice for 40+ years. There is a renegade streak in OZ culture which manifests itself in a fondness for the outsider. A prime example is the apparent nationwide love of Ned Kelly. In VIC there is a centre devoted to this man who by any definition was more of a terrorist than a Robin Hood. The events of yesterday may change this perspective and love of the outsider will dissipate. It is a striking contrast to the tragic death of the cricketer a fortnight ago when the entire OZ population appeared grief stricken.

    • papagaya

      Respectfully Cadwallader I think I know what you’re trying to say. Yes there has been a fondness or fascination with the Ned Kelly-type of outsider in Aussie culture. This individual does not fall within that category in any way, shape or form. His only following will be from some anti-Western Muslims.

      • Cadwallader

        That is absolutely right. I am concerned that in OZ there may be a “well served ’em right” mentality particularly if the police were to suffer any form of injury/death. The msm in NZ has already coughed up that sort of thing in the form of Ms Smalley on Newstalk regarding her suggestion that had the shop been American the anger from the muslim would’ve been understable. She is a nasty piece of work.

    • Bluemanning

      You arrived from OZ to live in NZ about the same time as me. I had a promotion I couldn’t refuse so we had to move back to Sydney in 2004 to 09. The obsession with Kelly was reinforced also an admiration for the larrikin and if you can put it ‘to the man’ and get away it is a ‘good on ya mate’ mentality. But I believe this terrorism is different and perceived as a threat from “outside”; IMO most Australians will be resolved against this inflicted terror and be hardened. The NZ MSM and their left mates need to harden up to facilitate defensive and offensive measures otherwise potentially the innocent may suffer.

  • busman

    Lets hope they learn a valuable lesson here , next time this happens and they know what they are dealing with let the snipers do their job , take him down quickly and save lives. No mucking about.

    • Damon Mudgway

      They would of if they could of. Strengthened glass windows appear to have prevented that option.

    • Brian of Mt Wellington

      The cafe is in an old bank building and the cops were unsure what parts of the building had been strengthened when originally built and were unsure of the window glass as well.

  • RightofSingapore

    Who is the useless mongrel Judge that gave him bail? That Judge if they have any decency will resign from the bench immediately.

    • Damon Mudgway

      Will the Judge have to go into hiding? The wrath of the Aussie public will weigh down upon him/her I have no doubt.

    • LabTested

      Broadcaster Ray H? from 2GB is on TV channel 9 saying there are new bail laws introduced by the outgoing government. Under the old bail laws Monks would not have been able to get bail. He says the old minister of justice has a lot to answer for

      Edit to as. He is talking about NSW bail laws

      • Wheninrome

        Something to be learned from this. I wonder if our MSM pick up on this.
        We need to harden up, so the prisons get a little or a lot overcrowded. The person in jail had a choice, live a normal law abiding life with freedom, or an overcrowded incarcerated life.
        We do make our jails too nice. Roast chicken etc., for Christmas dinner. I wonder what their families on the outside will be having?

        • sarahmw

          probably a food parcel from the city mission. Oh wait the last one was given to the family from Hamilton. I do believe they are provided for somehow. A lot would buy their own.

  • What i find much more interesting is trying to determine what Aussie politics will be after this. They already have rather harsh immigration policies, especially compared to NZ, But i can’t help thinking it will be tightened even more after this. Ban on all immigration from islamic countries perhaps. Another Pauline Hansen arrising over there, with alot more popular support?

  • (pic)

    Want to thank our commenters, in general, for keeping it classy. You all help make Whaleoil what it is, and as you can see from the Tweet below, no matter how much we clean up our act, it takes just a few rabid commenters to have the leftie blog owners squirm with glee.
    .

    • taurangaruru

      Wonderful to have a “higher moral authority” to watch over us & chide us for our transgressions……
      No doubt our recommended penance will be to cut our carbon emissions and give to the 1 in 4 living in poverty in our third world country.

  • LabTested

    Broadcaster Ray H? From radio 2GB has been on TV. He took a call yesterday from a hostage who relayed the terrorists demands. There were 3.

    A 5 minute conversation with Tony Abbott – for which he would release 5 hostages
    An Isis flag
    The government to publicly confirm that this was a terriost incident

  • LabTested

    Channel 7 is just across the rd from the cafe. A reporter was with police sniper. He is on TV now saying.

    The terrorist had been moving hostages to one end of the cafe – then back to the other. This was ongoing. At one point the hostages were temporarily split. At that stage a group escaped – the reporter counted 7.

    Minutes later the terrorist shot a hostage. The police sniper said over the radio ” window 2 hostage down” & then the cops stormed the building.

    In the reporters opinion the terrorist panicked once he lost control of the hostages

    • Teletubby

      The reporter was Chris Reason, he is also the source of the “toughened glass” story. I’m guessing he got that story on account of standing in earshot of a police sniper

      • sarahmw

        And what an amazing journalist keeping a lid on what he knew for so long. Unfortunately I can not imagine some of our MSM being able to act so professionaly. I know he tweeted but it was pretty much what was known and did not interfere with what was developing. Once again WOilers show their class.

        • Teletubby

          During the Police Commissioner’s press conference while he was thanking all and sundry I was waiting for him to give some credit to the media, I felt they deserved it since some of them put aside the chance of a scoop in favour of the greater good. The whole way through the incident channel 7 had a camera looking in the window of the cafe and at the request of the police choose not to put it to air. There was also the radio host who took the first call from a hostage and elected not to go to air with it. I think many here would have put it to air.
          In saying this it must be remembered there is some history in Australia where Mike Willesey got slammed for putting a hostage taker to air a few years ago

  • dinther

    Identification. Strange that the police tried to identify the lunatic by carting his picture around the muslim community, yet never appears to have checked it’s own records. I am sure with such a record the guy has a mugshot on file. Isn’t that where you’d start?

  • LabTested

    Policeman who suffered shot gun pellets to face has been discharged from hospital.

  • Whitey

    I’ll never understand how this man managed to be out on bail in the first place.

  • Charlie

    So even in Australia they have morons posing as judges, how on earth could anyone in their right mind let someone accused of all those heinous crimes out on bail.
    I don’t know how some judges can sleep at night with the guilt that they should have.

    • kloyd0306

      Australia has a higher proportion of leftist loons, greens and soft judges than here in NZ.

      • Dave

        Wrong, the judges over here are not usually soft, many youths are locked up on first assault charge, for several years. However, the difficult cases do slip through in BOTH countries. I suppose judges want to be too PC.

  • R&BAvenger

    The silence from the Greens and Winston First on this matter is deafening. This incident may encourage others to attempt the same.

  • 1951

    A point raised on Leighton’s program…this nutjob was a refugee, surely redflags had been raised? Does our system follow-up on all refugees? What can be done about such individuals if they cannot abide by our laws. Can we send them back?

  • Andru

    Those tactical squad guys are heroes. Total respect to them.

    • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

      Will they still be heros when we find that 99% of the injury and death caused was from 5.56mm rounds ?

      • For every problem there’s a solution.

        I’m very happy for the authorities to have a high velocity solution to those kinds of problems whilst protecting me, my family, friends and community – it saves NZ considerable time, cost and anguish having to house, shelter, feed and protect those that would wish our country to burn.

      • Edward Bufe

        I guess you would have rather seen every hostage shot by the maniac. Get a life!!

      • R&BAvenger

        How about we deal with facts and not speculation to suit your view of events?

        • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

          facts ? or media government police lies ? 2 different things

          • IanGreg

            So you’re saying the Media/Government/Police always lie?
            Makes sense, here’s a guy who innocently decided to hold a dozen people hostage while threatening to detonate bombs around the city…. Someone needs to fabricate some evidence to make him look bad, I know after waiting 14 hours, let’s shoot some people and pretend it was him… Brilliant!

          • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

            Sheeple looking at things to simplistically, try this on for size. What would government or police have to gain from such an event ?. Makes you wonder doesnt it. Government and police almost always lie when they have something to gain.

          • IanGreg

            “Sheeple”… Kind of proves the originality and ability to
            think independently. You don’t know anything about me, yet you’ll lump me in with a group simply because I obviously have a differing view point to you…..
            If you want to define “looking at things simply” perhaps you should start by directing your statement that Government and Police almost always lie when they have something to gain. Clearly nonsense, if that was the case there’d be no such
            thing as tax returns. Doctor’s would be sending with Cancer en masse, the Courts would be full of people contesting
            speeding fines and no Cops would have turned up to Lindt because “nothing’s happening there”.

          • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

            When the differing opinion matches the “Sheeple” view then the term “Sheeple” is warranted, as much as I’m happy to be labelled a conspiracy theorist for my views.

            I would love to enlighten you, but like many you are most likely far to “conditioned” to believe anything else other than the lies put before you on a daily basis.

            I was once like that to, but started to apply grey matter and put things together on how the world really works and what peoples true intentions are.

          • IanGreg

            I’ve been “conditioned” to accept lies put before me
            and that the reason I haven’t been enlightened is for a lack of application of
            the grey matter.

            News flash champ, if you’ve come to some great clarity the world and people’s
            motivations are always the opposite of those who’ve been “conditioned” then
            chances you’re the opposite side of the same coin. To be honest, you’re rhetoric
            sounds EXACTLY like the “Sheeple” who jump on board the “Conspiracy Theorist”
            bandwagon, while one side of the coin heads for “ISIS Death Cult” the other
            high tails for “Police Lies”…. By all means, feel free to provide some
            evidence that supports your theory that 99% of the injuries were caused by the
            Police, until such time as that happens, you’re no different to the “Sheeple”
            saying it was all the work of OBL… Personally, I’ll try look the facts as
            they pertain to this specific incident, apply some common sense and accept that
            both sides of coin will have their motivations for espousing their “version of
            the truth”….

        • Dave

          We’re you inside the cafe R&B? Do you actually know who the nutter is who carried this out? Do you have any clue what happened? Well, my son works a few hundred metres from the cafe and frequents the Cafe for meetings with others for meetings. He was fine, but out of interest I did a lot of research on the gunman/nutter. He is a religious Muslim individual nutter, a ticking bomb who as time went on would go off as he got tired and his demands were not met. I strongly suggest you research the web on him, although now his personal hate website has been shut down and a lot of his material and videos have been suspended. One site was suspended as I read it, and it was sick sick sick. Luckily I grabbed screen shots.

          Police did the world a favour, and if left without them storming the building, it’s my firm belief he would have slowly killed every one of them then himself. So, had they waited, 15 dead hostages. How about you wait and seek facts.

          Huge praise to the police and authorities for the way they handled this and got all but 2 out safely. And condolences to the relatives of the victims.

          • R&BAvenger

            Well said mate. Best to ignore the other poster though – he’s trolling.

      • Andru

        Anyone who puts their own life on the line to save others – like police, rescue workers, firemen – are heroes. If it doesn’t turn out as planned, they still put their life on the line. It takes enormous courage to confront an armed lunatic.

  • Isherman

    For today, I am designating the number 27 as the number of shame. 27 being the number of members of our House of Representatives voted against the recent anti terrorism bill, and thus sought to play politics with a bill to address one of the most fundamental responsibilities of any government, that being the security of that country’s citizens. No piece of legislation will ever be a magic bullet against the tradgedy we have seen unfold in Sydney, but in my opinion, those 27 members have failed to act in the best interests of all people in this country, and I hope this causes long reflections on the consience of those 27.

    • KiwiLliz

      Darn it! I can only upvote you once. Simple fact … no argument … well put.

    • Wendy

      Name and shame widely.

    • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

      sure there is no magic bullet but it doesn’t mean writing up willy nilly legislation giving sweeping powers to government without fully understanding the ramifications for the people its supposedly protecting.

      • damm good thrashing

        the ramifications of not doing anything are dead hostages

        • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

          its this simplistic thinking that is at the root of all bad meaningless legislation.

          I pose the question would spy laws or conceal carry permit legislation have had a better chance of ending this with no innocent deaths ?

          Its not a matter of doing anything, its a matter of doing the right things.

          • IanGreg

            The question that needs to be asked isn’t whether it would have prevented the crime (no legislation is a fix all…), the question is; If the legislation would have prevented this, would you comfortable.

          • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

            Would be great if legislation was like a software release we could run in a test environment but it isn’t. Which is why we need to apply some basic common sense tests before willy nilly releasing all sorts of legislation to try and fix something that legislation may never be able to address.

          • IanGreg

            It would be great if hackers left vulnerable computers alone
            until the owners had a chance to make system mpenetrable…. Sadly, douche bags don’t have the common decency to take these things into consideration and sometimes the best solution isn’t the perfect one….

            As the saying goes, you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take… Likewise, you miss 100% of the douche bags you’re not watching…… There’s a balance, but I’d rather that balance occasionally tips towards the guys who’re willing to try
            and stop bad things happening than the ones determined to make it happen.

          • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

            Ever heard of Celine’s Law ?

          • IanGreg

            Rhetorical question, are they similar to Coughlin’s Laws?

      • Bazza63

        The amendment was to let the GCSB/SIS etc to start surveillance on someone while they go thru the process of obtaining a warrant. If they do not obtain the warrant in 24 hours the evidence is not admissible in court.

    • Mrs_R

      There was a comment made yesterday by Bill Shorten (Opposition Leader), when after speaking to Tony Abbott and offering his full support he stated Australians can be assured that ‘we are one’ when it comes to keeping Australians safe. All those NZ politicians who are not ‘as one’ in keeping NZ’ers safe should have their views widely reported.

      • Gaynor

        I heard that several times yesterday and can’t help marveling at the difference in NZ.

      • R&BAvenger

        Agreed – R Norman and W Peters at top of list.

  • Wendy

    Id like to take a moment to remember that not all muslims are terrorists or terrorism enablers.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/64189551/Martin-Place-siege-illridewithyou-hashtag-goes-viral

    • El Diablo

      As I predicted yesterday, front and center in the news today has been all about the supposed backlash against Muslims. This happens every time that a Muslim commits a terrorist act, there is widespread reporting of this non-existent backlash. Reminds me of a parody headline from Tim Blair: ““British Muslims Fear Repercussions Over Tomorrow’s Train Bombing.”

      This #Illridewithyou is all very nice but notice how it’s always “us” that is reaching out to “them”.

      • MaryLou

        Not true. Dig further and you’ll find that both here and in Australia the Muslim community does actively try to integrate. Example: Christchurch earthquake – all mosques in area were opened as places of refuge and meals to ALL affected. It’s just that good news doesn’t sell as well as outrageous news.

        EDIT: There are always exceptions, just as with anything else.

        • All that said, where are the Christian fundamentalist cutting off Muslim heads and holding Muslims hostage? It’s at the extremes where the differences become obvious.

          • MaryLou

            Yes it is, but without wanting to take anything away from the fact that we have a very real problem with Muslim fundamentalists (which needs to be dealt with in strong terms), there are already people deliberately ignoring and misinterpreting the statements and doings of the Muslim community in general. I understand the desire to reinforce one’s argument over issues of such importance, but we can’t lose balance in this or unintended consequences kick in.

            Not a position I really intended to take, but there you go – clarity is important.

        • Dave

          I moved to Aussie in the mid 90’s, and have several muslim friends, they are nice gentle and honorable people, who have integrated into society. One is a senior doctor, in fact take a look around as many doctors over here are Muslim, and don’t go around ranting, preaching hate etc.

          However, as others have said – not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim. Lets be harsh on the individual offenders, not an entire culture out of fear or ignorance.

          • MaryLou

            That’s the one, much better put than my ramble. Thank you.

  • LabTested

    No one is yet asking how a man on bail for accessory to murder + other stuff got his hands on a shot gun

    • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

      Im sure they (Australian Government) have pre-written…oops sorry… are currently writing up new draconian firearm laws to remove those scary shotguns from public hands as we speak.

      ie like they did with evil black guns after Port Arthur.

  • 2rotorbro

    Glad I am not wandering around the Bankstown Centro mall today. The eyeballing and looks of ‘what are you doing in here palangi’ are bad enough when the community tensions are calm.

  • luke

    Anyone seen this regarding a Facebook post, which is deliberately not
    being reported by the mainstream media,
    was made by Marcia Mikhael. It states that the terrorist is a member of
    Islamic State and that the incident was an ISIS attack against
    Australia. On Facebook it has mysteriously disappeared. Screen grab
    attached.

    • Dave

      Luke. Don’t believe everything you read. This guy might be a Muslim, an extremist, but more so he is a deranged nutter who has done some terrible things, and in an increasing spiral downwards, he was an individual timebomb. He had all access to his kids halted by the courts, and last week his appeal thrown out. He wanted to be heard and revenge. However, whilst he was NOT acting as a terrorist is seems to me, respective governments and he judiciary need to ACT in the BEST INTERESTS of all citizens and actually lock up the nutters instead of offering a few hours public service. This guy was bound to do something terrible, the courts helped him by leaving him on bail, bail for assisting Murder, for sexual assault, and for many other crimes. Other normal citizens would have been locked up.

      • luke

        The men who all but beheaded a young soldier in a London street are also deranged nutters, but they also acted in the name of Islam. In NZ we have extremists who threaten their own (Avondale mosque). How you can say he was not acting as a terrorist when he terrorised innocent people AND closed down Sydney is mystifying. However I do agree regarding the issue of bail, utter madness.

      • LabTested

        It seems pretty clear from his requests that he wanted this incident to be viewed as a terrorist action. Just because he is a nutter that does not mean he can not be terrorist. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

        For each individual terrorist there is probably an individual reason why they took that final step.

        • Dave

          Except – terrorists largely do so in the name of islam, for revenge, or to highlight the so called wrongs of the west against the Islamic state. This nutjob is no doubt an islamic extremist, but his actions were on his account of being charged and oppressed by the mean evil state who had charged him, taken away a few of his civil liberties, and refused access to his kids. his actions were not at all similar to a terrorist who kill for their religion and the islamic state. just another radial extremist Muslim nutjob. Sadly, the Aussie judges should have locked him up years and years ago.

    • Orange

      It is likely she was forced to put that on FB. It should not be shared or repeated.

      • luke

        I’m sure she was coerced into this but don’t you think this is evidence, and why suppress it?

        • Orange

          Because it just feeds them silly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

          • luke

            Silly? So don’t give any publicity to such incidents? Suppress information because letting people know the truth feeds copy cats? In my opinion keeping people in ignorance is wrong, we can only make considered decisions when in possession of all the facts.

          • Orange

            Yes, silly. Don’t let terrorists control the information release. The media complied with police requests because it’s the right thing to do in the situation. Broadcasting their twaddle gives them the only power they have.

          • luke

            OK, the media complying with police requests isn’t an issue. Of course they should. The point I’m trying to make is the psychologist in the video you posted said there should be NO publicity at all because it feeds copy cats. Glorifying heinous acts is one thing and giving these evil people publicity is a disgrace, but not informing the public about potential threats is censorship and an abuse of power.

          • Orange

            But that’s the point, you were just giving the crazy person publicity which was what he demanded. That’s giving in to terrorism. On another point, the video did not state what you said it states. It did not say NO publicity. He clearly says how it should be covered, especially at the local level. Anyway, it’s all had a very sad end.

    • Shane M

      There is also video that is not being reported upon…

      http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8a3_1418648132

    • Teletubby

      More likely she took it down herself as she was coerced into putting it up there in the first place.

  • damm good thrashing

    It shows that the judges attitudes to bail in Australia are the same as the pathetic attitude judges have to bail in this country

  • Gaynor

    he might be described as a ‘Lone Wolf’ terrorist but …..14,000 followers?

    Just last week Monis – who had more than 14,000 “likes” on social networking site Facebook – branded Australians who supported the United States and its foreign policy “racist and terrorist” on his Facebook page, which late on Monday night was taken down.

    • 1951

      Wo! That could be one large amount of intimidation. I hope those idiots on the like-button don’t have a mistaken belief in Aussies. Aussies won’t remain as calm as Brits before they start to push-back.

    • Dave

      I took a look at his personal webpage, and whilst reading, it was suspended. he is a nutjob of the highest order, and the Federal Police will no doubt be monitoring his followers as they do.

  • sarahmw

    phil goff was interviewed and of course had to make a disparaging remark re Mr Key’s comment earlier in relation to this sad sad occasion. Unbelievable that you would make political points when innocent people have died! Shame on you phil goff.

    • R&BAvenger

      Yes shame, but unsurprising that he and most other of the looney left will seek to make political capital and ‘score points’ against the government at any opportunity. The contrast with Labor’s Bill Shorten in Australia becomes more and more stark by the day.

    • kaykaybee

      That’s Goff for you isn’t it. He’s getting worse with age. I noted Laura McQuillan had an OP on NewstalkZB’s website this morning:

      “John Key’s said even if ISIS wasn’t involved, the incident shows the
      group’s message is spreading, and that it poses a real danger.

      Labour’s Phil Goff has criticised Mr Key over those comments.

      “There’s no doubt that ISIS is trying to exploit vulnerable
      individuals to get them to take terrorist acts but there is no evidence
      yet, in this case.

      “We shouldn’t speculate and it seems opportunistic that the Prime Minister is doing so.”

      Goff come across as an Intnl. Security know all. He’s always trying for relevance when in reality he’s an Opposition has been and an incompetent whose every statement screams hypocrisy. “Opportunistic” Laura – you bet, but it’s Phil here who’s the donkey.

      I wonder when we’ll see these two bit tweeting reporters putting a microphone under the Herne Bay Luigi’s nose or when they’ll seek searching commentary from Russell the Tassie Devil on their No votes! I won’t hold my breath

  • WCMiner

    surely someone has made comparisons between this unhinged lunatic and the Maori Jihadi that was featured on the news and here a few weeks back. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to realise there is very real risk of this type of action here.
    Lets hope the GSCB and SIS have these guys under constant surveillance and can jump on them at the slightest hint they are going to jump out from behind their keyboard and try to be the next martyr meeting their 40 virgins.

  • Mythrandir

    How is someone who has 40 sexual assault charges and accused as an accessory to murder allowed to walk the street in the first place?????

    Unbelievable!

    ISIS isn’t coming to Australia and no enhanced terror laws are necessary.
    How about just don’t let career crims walk freely down the street?

    • Andy Brown

      Good point!

  • “nzherald @nzherald

    #Sydneysiege gunman had an ‘infatuation with extremism’: @TonyAbbottMHR”

    So… this isn’t terrorism, but it is an Islamic extremist.

    Looks to me like we’re discussing different shades of grey.

    As WCMiner says, how is this different to the Maori Islamic fundamentalist butbar down Hawke’s Bay way?

    • kaykaybee

      This is terrorism in my view. Jason Burke – a British reporter who writes about radical Islamist activity, says this:

      “There are multiple ways of defining terrorism, and all are subjective.
      Most define terrorism as “the use or threat of serious violence” to
      advance some kind of “cause”……..Terrorism is a tactic. ……my preference is, on the whole, for the
      less loaded term “Militancy””

      Wikipedia

      • Bluemanning

        I wonder if the IS terrorists will ‘claim it’ regardless.

  • HunuaRanger

    It’s interesting that even though this terrorist identified himself as a believer in ISIS, wanted to negotiate terms(don’t negotiate with terrorists), was a card carrying nutbar and had no exit strategy, that the anti-terrorism squad didn’t take him down the first chance they got.

    • LabTested

      12 hostages escaped while the police were negotiating with him.

    • sarahmw

      they did with the words “hostage down window 2” and then it was on. Other commentators here have explained that the cafe was once a bank i.e. strengthened glass was in place and authorities were not sure if those were still in place or had been replaced. Ricocheting bullets would have been a nightmare. He appeared to keep the hostages close.I thought the team did an amazing job considering.

  • “Channel 9: ‘The 34-year-old [victim] decided to take action when the hostage-taker begun to doze off after the siege had been going 17 hrs'”

    It appears it was a hostage who set it all off. *shakes head*

    • El Jorge

      Quite frankly if I was in that situation I’d be tempted to do the same.
      If I had been living on the edge for 17hrs wondering if I was going to come out alive I’d take the risk of escaping or die trying. Its a game of percentages.

      • Bazza63

        Hopefully I would also take the risk, he saved most of the hostages & since one died in hospital of a heart attack, according to the news reporting, he did not cause the death of any one by his action. I assume the hearth attack victim was going to have the hear attack some time during the hostage drama.

        • IanGreg

          Yesterday afternoon Ray Hadley was talking on the radio about one of the hostages possibly having health issues…. Could have been a heart attack fairly early on that wasn’t treated and became a bigger issue.

        • Dave

          Except, had the nutjob not taken the hostage and terrorised them, the man who had a heart attack would probably be alive today………

          • KiwiLliz

            Spot on, Dave. Speaking as one who has had 3 or 5 (1 very nasty, rest fairly minor … if there is such a thing), I absolutely agree with your comment. Poor guy probably suffered terribly.
            Phew … 17 hours, doesn’t bear thinking about.

        • Andru

          Not sure what the correct tactic is in such a situation. Do you go for the gun or try to incapacitate the offender?

          • Bazza63

            Depending upon the situation & since this is a shotgun I would go for deflecting the gun & attacking the offender.

          • disqus_XQTYMFVKlf

            Depends, the conservative in me would go for the offender, but my liberal side says while tackling the offender the gun might grown legs and start shooting people by itself. Tough choice

          • Andru

            Sticking a pen in his eye and tickling his brain might distract him first, then go for the gun.

            Good on the manager for having a go at him anyway. Gutsy.

      • papagaya

        Correct. The hostages would’ve been wondering, why the hell doesn’t a sniper take him out? Not realising the thickness of the glass was a problem. Understandably, desperation would have set in.

    • LabTested

      That conflicts with the Channel 7 eye witness reporter embedded with the police sniper who saw the 7 hostages escape & the terrorist become very agitated before shooting the hostage. He can not be moving hostages around the cafe, agitated & dozing off at the same time.

      • Maybe my interpretation is wrong, and “take action” meant “to get out”.

        • LabTested

          The same reporter is on channel 7 now. He was just asked was there a scuffle before the hostage was shot & the answer is ‘maybe’.

        • Dave

          my understanding from multiple (and somewhat conflicting) news reports, is you are correct Pete. As the gunman tired and started doozing off, one hostage decided to take action, several hostages fled and the gunman shot the hostage who was restraining him, so police stormed.

          Labtested, please remember, the Cafe is above street level, and has a few steps to get up into it, the windows are all above chest height meaning from the street its difficult to see into properly. It was a bank, and possibly still had armour plated glass. The reporter had a somewhat restricted view, and there have been reports of up to 60 very heavily armed police ready to shoot. There would have been frontline police snipers close to the action with the best vantage points, and others just in case he ran out and tried a mass shooting etc. I suspect the policeman with the reporter was not a frontline police sniper.

    • Muffin

      I’d like to think that in the same situation I might have a go if the opportunity presented itself. Refuse to sit their and have my head cut off for the cameras

  • jude

    Thank you so much to the Whale oil team. The reporting of this very emotional event was done with professionalism and humanity.
    I kept abreast of what was happening by reading this blog.
    There was clear reporting of facts and anything unconfirmed was stated as such.
    You have succeeded in showing how investigative reporting should be done
    The MSM could learn a lot from this thread alone.

  • rua kenana

    Haron Monis was a “refugee” from Iran to Australia in 1996.
    It’s now very clear why Iran wanted him gone.
    Makes one wonder about other “refugees” and why only some such choose to leave their home countries (the standard MSM description for all such is “forced to flee their homes”) while most others stay on.
    The appalling attitude of the Australian Greens towards properly vetting unwanted or illegal migrants including so many refugees (they go on about “race to the bottom”, “shameful behaviour” etc. if anyone tries vetting them effectively) hasn’t helped Australia.
    Probably there are many genuine refugees (Syrians, some Palestinians, some Burmese etc.) but it’s also clear that others can easily cause sufficient trouble in their home countries to convince and be classifed by UNHCR or Australian Greens etc. as “refugees”.
    If NZ’s aim is to have much better screening to avoid importing types like Haron Monis then I’m much in favour. But more spying on its own citizens is a more difficult issue.

  • LabTested

    They have named the dead woman. Mother of 3.

  • sarahmw

    How quiet are those that voted against the bill, not a whisper can be heard. Norman, lady in the expensive outfits, and the other 25. I would have thought the MSM had them down as the go to people re ‘now tell us again why the Bill was a bad idea’ ?

  • Rachel Smalley does it again (pic)

    If the cops were in control, there would be at most one death.

    bint.
    .

    • Dave

      I honestly cannot understand why she is still at ZB, or gets any air time. it amazes me when i hear she still has free reign to write and speak on air at all.

      Surely the editorial and senior management realize how damaging she is, or are they “whipped” by the foul mouth “lardo commenting” blonde.

      Sorry if you take a fence there Rachel, your words.

      • They have a habit of putting her promo on just ahead of the huddle which I turn off, twice now have missed the first few minutes of the huddle, very annoying.

      • Bluemanning

        1ZB is owned by APN. Enough said.

    • Bluemanning

      What nonsense, it must be great for her to know it all.

    • Brian Badonde

      She better pray she will never need the police after that comment. The NZ police will feel for their Australian counterparts.

    • sarahmw

      what a utterly naive, shallow, unintelligent nonlardo she is. Makes my blood boil how ignorant she is. Ms Smalley just because you say ‘nice things’ about these horrendous people does not mean that when it happens here you will be saved, on the contrary Ms Smalley blondes appeal to them.

  • timemagazine

    Will there be an angry demonstration on Queens Str any time soon led by always angry Minto & Co? Probably not.

  • I had been following events from Shanghai on WO as the MSM reports were just all over the place. The streaming blog was very professional and completely unembellished. Unlike The Press which reported on a NZ Fashion Designer “Caught up in Hostage situation” – turns out she was safely in her hotel a thousand metres from Martin Place.
    Well done for the standard of reporting.

  • Greg M

    In spite of our 27 cowards form the opposition, and apologists like Ms Smalley, I would like to give credit where it’s due. Good job Police.

  • Honcho

    Today has seen full spec damage control from liberal journalists, as predicted.

    However are we seeing ‘a lone wolf’, ‘a mental health case’, ‘a coward who hides behind religion, other muslims are not like him’

    Is this the truth? or do these journalists have short memories or their heads in the sand?
    September this year;
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746885/Jihadist-flag-goes-auction-Liverpool-mosque-Western-Sydney-Teen-posts-hate-fueled-photos-featuring-IS-flag.html
    going back to the same part of the world two years ago;

    Is it still isolated? or are west Sydney’s muslim population ‘victims’ of a mental health system not catering to their needs? … you can make your own minds up.

  • shykiwibloke

    How many main stream media have to be caught up in these ‘isolated fringe incidents’ before they adopt the views of the main stream public?

  • Pluto

    It should be recognised that for most Muslims this is equally horrific, and also carries with it issues of racism and stigma, howeverlet this be a call to our Muslim communities that positive action is required.
    Condemning this action after the event is welcomed, but not as welcome as working to out these people in the first place. You will be witness to extremism before the rest of us, do something about it.

  • kaykaybee

    I’m not one bit surprised at the construct put on this tragedy this morning by thestandard and thedailyblog. Not a word do they devote to the tragedy of the situation, the needless loss of life or the terror faced by hostages, relatives, citizens and the police, and not once do they refer to the closeness of our two countries or show any empathy. It’s all right wing fear, worrying about a knee jerk anti-Muslim reaction and what heroes the #illridewithyou crew are.

    Thestandard are apologising for the Islamist extremist. No, he’s not a terrorist he’s a sole nutter with personal problems and his abusive letters to dead soldier’s families and hate speech to Rudd, then Abbot about their fighting against terrorism is just like the actions of the Westboro church’s Reverend Fred Phelps.

    Thedailyblog has the nearly certifiable (I pick Internet Mana forming the next government) Bradbury reserving a special place in hell for Mark Mitchell for politicising this issue. He’s not of course, but then Martyn had an irony bypass years ago.

    I fervently hope that the things these ra-ra men and women (Chloe King’s tweets are something else) say and do will have them looked at carefully from those charged with our national security. It is not too far a stretch to say that some of the subversives and haters from whom we need protection are lurking not far away from these haters and apologists.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/the-sydney-siege-finishes/
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/12/16/australia-stares-down-siege-national-party-politicise-tragedy/

    • Cadwallader

      Newstalk ought rent out the cretinous Smalley to the Standard… a marriage made not in heaven but in whatever sleaze pit they both belong!

    • Andy Brown

      Al Jazeera didn’t mention ‘Muslim’ or ‘Islam’ or ‘hate’ in the news on it. Rather a disturbed person who acted alone.

  • 1951

    I have so busy trying to open the eyes of the dazzled, I didn’t get a chance to say to the rest of our Australasians cousins…..it is a really sad day.

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