Why homeopathy is complete nonsense

The economist explains why homeopathy is complete nonsense, and something only hippies and Green MPs believe in.

VISIT any health shop and you are likely to see them: packages of homeopathic remedies claiming to cure whatever ails you, from coughs and fever to insomnia and asthma. Flip the package of medicine, however, and you may be confused by the listed ingredients. Some claim to contain crushed bees, stinging nettles and even arsenic, as well as sugars such as lactose and sucrose. Americans spend some $3 billion a year on homeopathic medicines. What are they thinking?

The history of homeopathy—literally, “similar suffering”—dates to the late 18th century. Samuel Hahnemann, a German doctor, was unimpressed by contemporary medicine, with good reason. Doctors used leeches to let blood and hot plasters to bring on blisters, which were then drained. In 1790 Hahnemann developed a fever that transformed his career. After swallowing powder from the bark of a cinchona tree, he saw his temperature rise. Cinchona bark contains quinine, which was already known to treat malaria. Hahnemann considered the facts: cinchona seemed to give him a fever; fever is a symptom of malaria; and cinchona treats malaria. He then made an acrobatic leap of logic: medicines bring on the same symptoms in healthy people as they cure in sick ones. Find a substance that induces an illness and it might treat that illness in another.

Crazy stuff. Maybe it can cure Ebola though?

Hahnemann then decided that ingredients should be diluted and shaken repeatedly, a process called “potentiation”. The smaller the amount of the active ingredient, the more powerful the medicine would become, he believed. Homeopathic remedies use various bits of terminology to convey their supposedly potency. One common designation is “NC”, where C signifies that a substance is diluted by a ratio of 1:100 and N stands for the number of times the substance has been diluted. So a dilution of 200C would mean that one gram of a substance had been diluted within 100 grams of water, with the process repeated 200 times. At this dilution not a single molecule of the original substance remains. Most homeopathic pills are made entirely of sugar. However, the pills are supposed to retain a “memory” of the original substance.

Yep that’ll work a treat on ebola.

This is bunk. Studying homeopathy is difficult, points out the world’s biggest funder of medical research, America’s National Institutes of Health (NIH), because it is hard to examine the effects of a medicine when that medicine has little or no active ingredient. Researchers can neither confirm that the medicine contains what it claims to nor show the chemical effect of the diluted medicine within the body. The most comprehensive review of homeopathy was published in 2005 in the Lancet, a medical journal. Researchers compared trials of homeopathic and conventional medicines. In the bigger, well-designed trials, there was “no convincing evidence” that homeopathy was more effective than a placebo, they found. Meanwhile, in similar trials of conventional drugs, medicines showed specific clinical effects. As the NIH dryly notes: “several key concepts of homeopathy are inconsistent with fundamental concepts of chemistry and physics.”

People promting homeopathy should be prosecuted. They are snake oil salesmen, but at least snake oil was still snake oil.

 

– The Economist

 


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  • symgardiner

    “The smaller the amount of the active ingredient, the more powerful the medicine would become…”. It’s a bit like saying the smaller the nuclear bomb blast the more powerful it is. I’m sure we can think of many other logically challenged examples.

  • Michael_l_c

    When some idiots suggested treating ebola with homeopathics, I noted none of them volunteered to go and do it. Quite happy to volunteer someone else, just the usual hypocrisy.

    • Catriona

      Even I wouldn’t put Homoeopathy as a first choice treatment if i had Ebola.
      Wouldn’t get a chance as I’d be in hospital in isolation PDQ.

  • People promting homeopathy should be prosecuted. They are snake oil salesmen, but at least snake oil was still snake oil.

    I guess that depends on the level of dilution.

  • Some months ago I wrote the following and it is (IMHO) worth repeating:
    ‘If a homeopathic remedy is manufactured according to the received wisdom (ie dilution x30) then one takes one ml of the active ingredient and dissolves this in 100 mls water. You then take one ml of the result and dissolve it in another 100 mls water and so on thirty times. To put this into proportion the final result is the equivalent of one ml of the active in a sphere of water 130 LIGHT YEARS in diameter. Do the math!
    So there really is nothing in it and if anything works it is the placebo effect. Homeopathy is today’s equivalent of snake oil and frankly you’d save a great deal of money if instead of a homeopathic remedy you simply drank a glass of tap water’.

    To dilute 200 times the substance would be 1ml of the original in a sphere LARGER than the known universe.

    • Coffee Connoisseur

      Its not maths that is at work here. It is energy and at the end of the day everything at its most basic level is energy at a particular vibration..

      • BR

        Energy is quantifiable and measurable. Explain the form that this energy takes.

        Bill.

      • Energy is measurable…except in homeopathy, there it is a unmeasurable thingy…but but but it works…

        • Coffee Connoisseur

          have they tried measuring homeopathic remedies at an energetic level? not as far as I am aware.

        • Coffee Connoisseur

          W/O operations lessons learned: anytime there’s a slow post day have a few articles on Homeopathy to get the masses into a frenzy. Works everytime. ;)

          • Momo

            Can you provide ANY evidence published in scientific literature that shows homeopathy works? Anything?

            No. There is not a single trial that proves it.

            All you have is anecdotal evidence and self reported “curing”.

            Until homeopathy is subject to the same standards and evidence of proof that conventional medicine MUST provide, it is simply quackery.

  • You should read this essay by Oliver Wendell Holmes penned in 1842 that showed that even rational thinkers back when homeopathy was in it’s infancy saw it was bunkum.

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holmes.html

  • mommadog

    I personally think homeopathy is bumpkin and as the article says a rip-off of gullible people. Homeopathy may work for some but only in the same way a placebo does when people are given a sugar pill and think its the real deal. Its mind over matter. However I will stick my neck out and say it should not be confused with naturopathy as I believe that has a place and can be complimentary to modern western medicine.
    I do find the line “Find a substance that induces an illness and it might treat that illness in another” interesting. This has been done since the days of smallpox and is the basis of all vaccines including the annual flu shot.

    • Evan

      “Find a substance that induces an illness and it might treat that illness
      in another” interesting. This has been done since the days of smallpox
      and is the basis of all vaccines including the annual flu shot.”

      You are confused, the basis of a vaccine is a small amount of the same thing that caused the illness in a dead form, it can’t cause the illness but it can still trigger the body’s immune response to only that same disease in future – it’s not something different as per the homeopathy quackery theory.

      • mommadog

        Depends on the vaccine. There are dead and live vaccines.

        http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/vaccines/understanding/pages/typesvaccines.aspx

        • Mighty1

          Actually these “live” vaccines are genetically modified, much weaker versions of the infective virus which are not but “scare” the immune system in to creating anti bodies.

          • Catriona

            The base of some of these vaccines is actually embalming fluid. How about that?

          • Mighty1

            Not sure what your point is here, alcohol and formaldehyde, also water I believe.

          • JMC7

            You mean formaldehyde? Are you saying that’s a bad thing? Next time you eat a pear you’ll eat about 0.02g of the stuff, is that more or less than the amount in the dose of vaccine you mentioned?

          • Momo

            So what?

      • Coffee Connoisseur

        You have an energy body. Everyone does. Homeopathy works at that level and lets your energy body know what it is dealing with. This information is then picked up by the physical body’s immune system. The correct immune response is initiated and deals with the problem. Looked at in this manner it is similar to vaccines but to appreciate the concept you have to understand the fact that you have an energy body.

        • Wheninrome

          What is the test for an “energy body”?
          The homeopathic people I have talked to don’t test anything, they talk to you and then make decisions. Is this the normal way?

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            to help you understand take a look at
            Kirlian Photography and the work of Dr Masaru Emoto

        • Mighty1

          But there are NO active ingredients in homeopathic medicines. So your hypothesis can not be correct.

          • Catriona

            Might i suggest you visit a Homoeopath and ask the how it works then you will be in a position to make an informed decision one way or the other. Until then, you are just showing your ignorance imo. Remember, without knowledge, there is no understanding.

          • I guarantee you that I know more about ‘how homeopathy works’ than 99.9% of people who think it works. Admit it Catriona – you believe in magic spells and potions.

          • Catriona

            Wrong there BS. Don’t do magic spells and potions. Sorry to disappoint.
            You see, that ‘assume’ word pops up again.
            Assume – ‘ass u me’

          • Mighty1

            But it can’t work, its impossible, like you can’t fly either, its impossible for something with Nothing in it to have an effect that does Something! You just imagine it works so you feel better. The complication for you however, is that understanding and knowledge aren’t always the same thing.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            But it does work for many many people and at the end of the day that is all that matters.

          • Mighty1

            That’s correct. If they feel better by taking something with nothing in it then tats great. It lessens the cost on the medical system in having to deal with people with imaginary illnesses.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            when did the illness become imaginary? I think you have the wrong topic.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            ….But there are no measurable active ingredients of the type we are trying to measure.

            Just because you can’t see or measure something with the devices that we use currently does not necessarily mean that it does not exist. If you are trying to measure ‘active ingredients’ you are probably measuring the wrong thing. i.e, if the homeopathic remedy is for hay fever and contains seasonal grasses and you try to measure for residual amounts of the seasonal grasses you will simply find water. You won’t find any trace of the seasonal grasses. (this would be the attempt to measure the active ingredients in homeopathy) You haven’t tried to or perhaps don’t even have the necessary equipment to measure things at the energetic level.

            Look at and understand the works of Dr Masaru Emoto.

            At one point in time people could not see beyond the horizon and therefore drew the conclusion that the world therefore had an end and must be flat. If you went to far you would fall off the edge.

          • Mighty1

            Exactly my point. Its not the remedy, its the thought of the remedy. Thank you.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            your argument doesn’t take into account the effect at an energetic level.
            It also misses or downplays the most important part in the entire argument. – Whatever the reason it works for many many people.
            I suspect the only real problem is with you and the fact that given what you know about it you find that hard to reconcile.

        • BR

          “You have an energy body. Everyone does.”

          Explain.

          Bill.

      • Sunshine

        Not all vaccines are a dead or inactive form. The polio vaccine is often a “live” vaccine usually because it provides more effective life long immunity.

  • Catriona

    I use it, actually, and have had good results. I have kept a chronic sinus problem at bay for over 12 months and haven’t had to resort to antibiotics and prednisone.
    Why is it then, that some conventional Drs also treat patients homoeopathically then?
    I don’t consider myself a gullible person either just in case you’re wondering.

    • Why don’t you just use water then? …oh wait you are.

      • Catriona

        You shouldn’t knock it – unless you’re prepared to look into it with an open mind which, by your comment you have just demonstrated you don’t have.

        • kiwibattler

          The mind is a powerful thing…….

          • KiwiM8

            Exactly … as a hypnotherapist I have seen many ‘unproven’ things happen. If you believe it, you’re right, and if you don’t believe it, you’re right ….

          • Catriona

            It’s got nothing to do with the mind when it comes to using Homoeopathy to treat a condition. On that basis you have shown your ignorance through misunderstanding imo.

          • kiwibattler

            I am glad that it has obviously helped you – doesn’t deter from the fact that homeopathy has no basis in fact and the effects it had on yourself were purely natural or mental.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            “doesn’t deter from the fact that homeopathy has no basis in fact” based on modern scientific studies to date. and therefore “the effects it had on yourself were purely natural or mental based on that in my opinion.”

            there fixed it for you.

            Good to see that you acknowledged the most important part in this whole argument and to a large degree the only part that matters…….. “I am glad that it has obviously helped you”

          • Evan

            Remember it had the same incidence of effect statistically as the placebos used in the same testing. Sometimes stuff just happens but the problem with Homeoquackery is that is doesn’t work any more reliably than random chance which translates as no noticeable effect.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            So don’t use it but leave those of us that choose to alone to do so. Jeez the thought police are out in force today. Am I still living in New Zealand?

          • BR

            How do you know that?

            Bill.

          • Catriona

            So I said to my mind – here, take these pills and make the pain go away. Easy as. And guess what, it did.

          • BR

            You could have eaten a sweetie and the effect would have been no different.

            Bill.

          • Catriona

            No, no lollies involved. Sorry to disappoint.

          • Mighty1

            If you use it. In her case I am starting to wonder….

          • Catriona

            Nope, not into hocus pocus, don’t belong to a Witches Coven, not a Hippy, not a religious nut case. Don’t chant strange verses to the sun or moon.
            I think i’m completely normal actually.
            This is so much fun – winding up all the skeptics.

        • Mighty1

          Everyone here has an open mind, else they would not be reading this stuff. Mostly the comments here are factual. With an open mind one think and see that if there is nothing in a medicine it will have NO direct effect. Any effect would be due to another factor such as an imaginary illness or some other psychosomatic issue. If I tell you you are smart, maybe you feel good, so does positive comments constitute a medicine?

          • Catriona

            Ok, so are you suggesting then that If I told you that you had cancer, you would believe it then?

        • BR

          What is there to look into? There is nothing that can be measured or otherwise experimented on. How should someone “look into it”?

          Bill.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            “There is nothing that can be measured or otherwise experimented on” using the tools/methods we use currently.

            There fixed it for you.

          • BR

            How then should it be “looked into”?

            Bill.

      • Effluent

        Maybe she’s using the power of auto suggestion to control a psychosomatic disorder, in which case, the treatment is entirely efficacious, and probably cheaper and less harmful than “real” medicine.

        • Mighty1

          Agreed – This is the useful purpose of Homeopathy, to treat psychosomatic afflictions.

        • Catriona

          If you’re referring to me, no I do not have a psychosomatic disorder as you put it. Perfectly healthy apart from a back strain which was treated with Homoeopathy and is now back to normal. Nothing psychosomatic about a back strain. I did it pulling some heavy furniture around so can’t agree my sore back was psychosomatic.

          • Effluent

            Actually no, I was referring to CoffeeConnoisseur’s post, in which she referred to depression.

            As we are constantly being told by John Kirwan, there are many things we can do to affect our mental climate, some of which are not susceptible to scientific testing, and if homeopathy is one of the things that works for one woman’s depression, it doesn’t mean that the mechanism is necessarily the one that she imagines. If you want me to believe that there is a rational basis for homeopathy, I would like to see test double blind trials, test results and peer reviews of the same rigour as those applied to conventional medicine. Otherwise, I am perfectly willing to believe that in many cases, it is effective by virtue of the placebo effect, and I think a cure by any means is usually better than no cure.
            edit content/spelling

            Similarly, many people believe in prayer as an effective treatment for mental and physical illness, and I won’t knock it, but I wouldn’t personally throw away the pills.

      • Coffee Connoisseur

        Homeopathy was the first part of my recovery from severe depression. It enabled me to go back to work and be effective. At the time I had no real knowledge of what homeopathy was.
        Why is it that people feel the need to mock the things they simply don’t understand…

        • Catriona

          Excellent. You understand the basis of Homoeopathy. Conventional treatment for depression is usually medication, psychotherapy. Sometimes the treatment for depression can trigger psychotic episodes as was the case of someone in our area who committed suicide after being put on heavy medication. I know what i’d prefer to do – seek the help of someone who understands how to treat whole being. Dr’s are too busy for that – write the script, out the door you go.

        • I understand it perfectly…let’s try something then…we will go buy some homeopathic remedies, then i will send them away tot eh lab to testing…see what is in them…I bet is it nothing other than H2O

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            and what test do you propose using for testing the energetic levels of the various remedies. Perhaps you can start by explaining Dr Emotos work as it is similar in concept in my view.
            You’d be better to simply say You don’t personally see how it can work for anyone and wouldn’t use it yourself personally. That anyone can respect it is a view point and a valid one.

          • BR

            What testing would you recommend?

            Bill.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Not sure I’m not a scientist but whatever testing equipment can be used to test minute amounts of energy.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            don’t know BR certainly not my area of expertise.

        • Sunshine

          Perhaps the action of taking something helped with kick starting a belief of hope which is so lacking in active depression. I haven’t had depression, but live with family who have suffered from depression. The single best thing was somehow, anyhow getting a sliver of hope they can cling to, that starts them on the journey out of the black hole.

  • conwaycaptain

    Gin and Tonic was developed to give the Tonic Water which contained Quinine a more pleasant taste and the slice of Lemon was to ward off scurvy!!!

    • Betty Swallocks

      … and it works too! I can truthfully report that, having consumed at least half a dozen gin & tonics each week over the past 30 years or so, neither Mrs BS or I have ever exhibited any symptoms of scurvy (well, to be truthful a few teeth fell out some years ago but that was more likely attributable to a cricket ball coupled with poor hand/eye coordination) or malaria – which is why the quinine was included originally in Colonial times. Nowadays, there is much less quinine in tonic water, therefore I conclude that homeopathy is indeed efficacious.

      • conwaycaptain

        In the days before GPS I suggested that all vessels be fitted with a Gordon’s Bottle detector and they could find their way from Port to Port by following the ditched Gordon’s Bottles on the sea floor.

        China Navigation use to send their oil samples ashore in old Gordon’s Bottles and they had specially made holders with handles for the bottles to be taken ashore.

    • T. Akston

      Aaah, gin, otherwise known as vitamin G. More efficacious than homeopathy every time.

  • twr

    My wife unwittingly got sold a homeopathic treatment by a Unichem pharmacist in Wellington. We have never been back to there.

    • Catriona

      My daughter is a Pharmacist and she is not averse to using Homoeopathy for herself. Im sure the Homoeopathy didn’t kill your wife or turn her into a 5 headed monster. Knock it all you want – but there are times when it is useful. They even have a Homoeopathic Hospital in London.
      As they say, without knowledge there is no understanding and no, I’m not a Hippie or a Greenie – I just have the ability to look at things and decide whether or not its for me.

      • twr

        I have serious concerns about the professional competence of people who take money for products that have no active ingredients. If I wanted water I would visit the tap and keep my wallet shut.

        • Coffee Connoisseur

          perhaps you should learn much more about how the body works at an emotional, energetic and physical level. Then you might at least have the basic foundation to understand how homeopathy works well for some.
          Start with the work of masaru emoto and water. It may help lay some basic groundwork for how many things including homeopathy work.
          .

          • BR

            I thought you were taking the piss with your first post.

            Bill.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            No I simply don’t shut myself off to something when I don’t agree or fully understand something. I am also a huge believer in personal choice and personal freedom. Funny thing is I thought you were in that camp too.

          • twr

            If you knew anything about how the body works then you would understand that there is no possible way that homeopathy could work, no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish really really hard. If there is no trace of the original substance remaining, then it can’t possibly have an effect. How can you not get this?

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Because I DO understand howthe body works

            muscular system

            skeletal system

            endocrine system

            nervous system

            digestive system

            circulatory system

            Respiratory system

            add to that that the body has an energy system. http://www.faim.org/energymedicine/measurement-human-biofield.html

            The difference is that I am not so ignorant as to think that something doesn’t exist or can’t work because either I or even science haven’t been able to figure it out yet.

          • twr

            And which of these things that you know the name of allows itself to be cured by small amounts of water dripped on sugar pills? If there is one, how does it work, and why have all scientific trials failed to prove it?

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            well Id hypothesize that scientific experiments need to focus on the energetifc side of both the homeopathic remedy and that of the patients and conduct the experiments from that point of view to try and shed more light on why they seem to be effective for some but not for others.
            There effectiveness on Animals tends to possibly rule out placebo

        • Catriona

          It’s all about personal choice. You weren’t there when the Pharmacist was advising these people, so your opinion is insignificant really.

          • Pharmachick

            As a person who teaches Pharmacists (and Doctors) I would be *horrified* if one of them was so ill-educated as to be advocating homeopathy. That being said, a very clear and serious description of the placebo effect should suffice.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Luckily more and more medical professionals are waking up to the fact that in some instances alternative therapies have their place and in some instances can have better results than what so called modern medicine prescribes.

          • Pharmachick

            I did not say all alternative medicine. I specifically said homeopathy.

      • Mighty1

        Strange how people on the fringes of medicine – Nurses, Pharmacists, seem to have a contrarian view of medicine. See how many children are born brain damaged or dead with the help of the contrarian mid wives.

        • Catriona

          It’s all about personal choice Mighty1. I keep my opinions about Homeopathy to myself. I find that when the subject comes up, the misinformed are the biggest sceptics and I don’t care whether or not they ‘believe’ in it. It’s got nothing to do with ‘belief’ it actually works.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            It won’t work for those who actively don’t believe that it will.
            They are closed to it at the energy level.

          • Catriona

            Exactly. Well put.

          • kiwibattler

            So you are agreeing with the majority that homoeopathy is all in the mind?? Otherwise it would work regardless of whether you believed in it or not……..

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            nope not saying it is all in the mind but it (the mind) can play a big part in its effectiveness when coupled with the persons energy system.

          • Mighty1

            If you keep your opinions about Homeopathy to yourself, then why are you sharing them here? You also discuss your beliefs when the subject comes up! I think you should not resort to calling others mis-informed or skeptics because they do not agree with you. You don’t care? Doesn’t seem like it to me.

          • Catriona

            You are so strong in your views that Homoeopathy is a load of bunkum. You quite freely spout your views, and yet you don’t like it when others disagree with you.
            I’m wondering if there is a remedy for Scepticism?
            I don’t normally share my views on the subject, but it’s much more fun doing so here on Whale Oil.

        • Catriona

          A Pharmacist is not on the ‘fringes of medicine’ as you put it.
          My daughter would gladly kick you in the gonads if you were to say that within earshot. Pharmacists have a much deeper knowledge of medicine that Drs have – so there.
          She does not have a contrarian view of medicine. She has a broad knowledge of palliative care, drug information etc. etc.
          Obviously much smarter than you are when it comes to medicine.

          • Mighty1

            Doesn’t sound like it from her logic.

          • Catriona

            An you’ve gained a Bachelor Degree in Pharmacy have you?
            You have a broader knowledge of pharmacy than she has?
            You understand the side-effects of every medication known to man? You understand how medical treatment works?
            You know how to treat a person dying of cancer – know how to alleviate their pain and suffering do you?
            You know what drugs are to be avoided with other medications?
            You know how the body works?
            You have a broad knowledge of all medical conditions and how to treat them?
            She would simply say you are ignorant.

          • Pharmachick

            “You have a broader knowledge of pharmacy than she has?”

            I do and your daughter is not practicing to standards if she is advocating homeopathy over traditional medicine.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            perhaps we need to start talking about the number of deaths from pharmaceuticals each year. You know since you’re an expert and all. In fact since you are an expert isn’t taking a homeopathic remedy statistically safer than taking asprin?

          • Pharmachick

            If you take the # of people that take aspirin as compared to the # taking homeopathy it would be very hard to statistically adjust for adverse events because the former is massive and the latter is small. However, I suspect you’d find a higher death rate for the homeopathy side because people are taking it when they are desperate – and it doesn’t work. The # of deaths from aspirin (primarily ruptured ulcers and [rarely] Reye’s syndrome) would be, in a statistically adjusted population, much smaller.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            let me help you. Lets narrow it down to death from a direct result of taking a homeopathic remedy i.e. overdose or death from an adverse reaction. Then compare that to the same for Asprin.
            Then just for fun lets do it for all pharmaceutical drugs.

          • simon

            Given homeopathic remedies are in fact water, and an overdose of water is commonly know as drowning, then I would suggest that more NZers die from an overdose of homeopathic remedies than die from Aspirin

          • Pharmachick

            “Pharmacists have a much deeper knowledge of medicine that Drs have”.

            They do not.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            “Pharmacists have a much deeper knowledge of pharmaceuticals than Drs have”
            There fixed it for you..

          • Pharmachick

            Still no.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Care to explain cause if that’s the case Doctors should be the ones doing your job.

          • Pharmachick

            I already did, in reply to Catriona – just not right here. I won’t repost as its a) breaking the rules and b) boring. See above. Cheers.
            EDIT: also I am not a pharmacist and you have no idea whether or not I’m a Doctor.

          • simon

            So, let’s look at the process:
            Doctor: examines patient, studies records, discusses symptoms, prescribes exact type and dosage of medicine and any other treatment regime. Refers to more specialist doctor and/or orders further tests as required.
            Pharmacist: delivers prescribed medication to doctor’s specification.
            So, why would the pharmacist know more?

      • yes, it operates something like this…

  • Tom

    I have a great cure for insomnia. I take a dozen cans and sleep like a log. Throw in a bottle of wine also and you have a laxative for the next morning.

  • Lord Evans

    I have tried to reason with Homeopaths, which includes a member of my family, and come to the conclusion that they are as brainwashed as adherents to a religious cult. It matters not that science is against them, they all have their ‘experiences’ with the ‘magic’ water which proves they are right. Unfortunately, the cult of Homeopathy has managed to infiltrate mainstream modern retailing as an alternative medicine. Remedies are sold alongside scientifically proven medicines as if they have the same effectiveness. The solution? Caveat emptor – buyer beware. Thanks Whaleoil for raising awareness of the Homeopathy scam – hopefully it will save a few folk needless pain and suffering.

    • Catriona

      Homoeopathy is not a ‘cult’ as you put it. And no, I a not a Hippie nor a Greenie so the ‘type’ is incorrect. Got it wrong, Cameron.

      • jess

        No but it attracts the same type of easily led and manipualted moron.

    • Mighty1

      If Homeopathic remedies work for them then that proves that their ailment was one of the mind. In medical tests a placebo often out performs doing nothing. this is called the placebo effect. The placebo effect points to the importance of perception and the brain’s role in physical health.

      • Catriona

        Homoeopathy is not a placebo. I recently took Homoeopathy for a very strained back. Couldn’t get to the Physio as it was post Xmas.
        I was advised to take Rhus Tox – and now the pain has all gone, and no need to go to the Physio who will massage it, maybe use a ‘Tens’ machine on it. It worked for me and I now have full movement in my back. Rhus Tox is used for sprains and strains – so after a good workout in the garden and you’re feeling stiff and store, take 3 – 4 doses of Rhus Tox and you will get relief. Tell me my sore back was all in the mind then.

        • Most things just get better. I had a sore back too – could hardly get out of bed. A week later it was better – without any treatment. Your taking some sugar pills didn’t make your back better – time did.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            So given that my initial introduction to homeopathy was for severe depression and it was effective….

          • Catriona

            No, not necessarily. I could hardly move.
            And I didn’t take a sugar pill as you put it.
            So are suggesting then that people who go to an Acupuncturist for treatment are misguided as well?

          • Lord Evans

            Catriona, the fervour with which you are defending your ‘precious’ magic water indicates that it holds a place akin to religion in your life. Now you are resorting to putting up ‘Straw Men’ i.e. Acupuncture, to deflect the argument. Might I suggest you consider the Placebo Effect as the reason for success you have experienced. Unfortunately, because there is no evidence of a beneficial ingredient in the homepathic remedy itself, then this is the only other possibility.

          • Catriona

            Nope, ain’t religious so no fervour there. Not defending ‘precious magic water’ as you put. Simply putting another view out there. No intentions of converting anyone.
            Don’t care what poison you prefer.

          • Lord Evans

            If you want to waste your money on unproven, fraudulent snake oil medicine, that is your right as a consumer. The reason I bother to enter this debate is that there are sick folk in genuine need that I hope will read this and think twice about considering homeopathy as a solution. I don’t consider Homeopaths as vultures, but rather as something a vulture might eat.

          • Catriona

            Well, the Homoeopath I go to doesn’t look like a vulture. She is a conventional Dr by the way and uses Homoeopathy. I like it like that so if need be we can use either/or.
            And if sick folk want to pursue other avenues of treatment then that’s their choice surely?
            If I was so ill with Cancer for example, I would not disagree with conventional treatment.

          • BR

            How much does she charge?

            Bill.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            No. I gave you other possibilities..

          • Lord Evans

            What, you mean the works of Dr Masaru Emoto? A man who has a degree from India that may be purchased for under $500. And who has failed to garner the support of a single reputable scientific organisation. And whose writings have been described as ‘spectacularly eccentric’? If it’s all the same CC, I’ll pass on the ‘possibilities’.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Yes I just love the way that in this day and age rather than look at the work and the results we instead focus on the individual. Do whatever we can to discredit him even if that involves making stuff up to help your argument (“that may be purchased for under $500.”)

            No attempt to discredit the actual work though

            “And who has failed to garner the support of a single reputable scientific organization.” It might astound you Lird Evans but in this day and age and in this system we have everything runs on money. So it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to look at his work and figure that it isn’t likely to be something that profit can be derived from.
            It was however simply put forward to help in peoples understanding.
            If its not your cup of tea theres Chi or Qi energy and Kirlian photograpy.
            You also appear to miss the most important part in the whole argument that homeopathy has worked for and continues to work for many. I suspect that given your knowledge of it you struggle with the fact that this occurs. You will write it off as placebo. Well here’s a little news flash for you. For those who do use it and find it helps them, they simply don’t care one tiny little bit that you think this. The only thing they do care about is the fact that it seems to help them and improves there experience here in this life and at the end of the day that is all that really matters. More people like you need to start waking up to this fact.

          • Lord Evans

            Keep talking CC, I always yawn when I’m interested. The thing is, I don’t need to make anything up. Check here for verification of your guru, Dr. Emoto’s dodgy qualification. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto#cite_note-10
            At the same time you may also learn that there are a large number of eminently qualified scientists who have investigated his claims and are highly sceptical of his ‘work and results.” That’s good enough for me. I never said that homeopathy cannot work. It’s Placebo Effect is well documented ergo why should any quack be allowed to market a ‘medicine’ which is scientifically proven to offer no more potency than tap water? Your anecdotal evidence is underwhelming. Either put up or shut up.

          • I couldn’t move either. I was stuck in bed and any movement almost made me pass out. It got better with time. Or was it the tomatoes on toast I had for breakfast that day. Magic tomatoes.

          • Catriona

            Sure it wasn’t magic mushrooms?

          • Steve (North Shore)

            Only after a lot of time, I was only when saffron sauce on scallops that fixed your back

        • Mighty1

          Rhus Tox is from Poison Ivy and 200C so 1 ml in 100ml then 1 ml of that in another 200ml another 198 times and your remedy does not contain any poison ivy, like a drop of water in 26 olympic swimming pools. 4 doses = 4 days = time taken for back to get better.

          • Catriona

            I didn’t require 200c. Now you’re showing your knowledge of how things work, maybe you could educate the readers on what is likely to happen to you if you ingest Poison Ivy i.e. what symptoms are you likely to get.

          • Mighty1

            You tell me you are the expert. In any case when its homeopathic at 30C
            or 200C you won’t be getting a therapeutic dose of anything except the
            sugar or water its imaginarily mixed in.

          • Catriona

            Oh, so you do know a little about Homoeopathy then?

          • Catriona

            I never said was the expert. That’s the conclusion you’ve jumped to. I an not a Homoeopath by the way.

        • kiwibattler

          Your sore back wasn’t in your mind but belief that homoeopathy cured it is. Looking at your very defensive posts splattered throughout this post you have a strong belief in the benefits of homoeopathy which I suggests helps you recover better from what ails you through a placebo effect.

          • Catriona

            Well, it must have been all a coincidence then because I woke up the next day and could move and I wasn’t telling my mind to trick me into thinking that the pain had was all psychosomatic either. Nothing to do with placebo.
            Gosh, I’m surprised my posts are viewed as defensive. I’m just stating a view – not asking anyone to agree with me.
            I am not averse to taking conventional drugs when needed.
            If you want to take offence at my personal views, then go ahead, don’t’ care.
            I have no intentions of trying to ‘convert’ anyone if that’s what you’re thinking.

          • RightofSingapore

            So how come when I took a massive overdose of homeopathic sleeping pills-enough to supposedly kill me, I didn’t even feel tired? Many others have repeated this experiment with the same result ie nothing

          • Wheninrome

            If I were you I would see a Counsellor, why would you want to kill yourself, if you do try something with some degree of certainty.

          • RightofSingapore

            You’ve missed the point-suicide was not the goal. I knew the “treatment” wouldn’t harm me at all because homeopathy is rubbish, it was to show how useless and ineffective it is.

          • Wheninrome

            I did get the point, I was simply buying in, in other words not to use a homeopathic remedy use something with certainty. It has been a most interesting and busy morning on the “Blog”. Strong points of view on both sides.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            it works at an energy level. You are closed to it and don’t believe it will work. It won’t, the message simply won’t get through. You shouldn’t waste your money.

          • BR

            So it won’t work if you don’t believe in it. No surprises there.

            Bill.

          • ShoreRight

            A bit like UFOs – no one who doesn’t believe in them has ever seen one !

          • RightofSingapore

            So if drink an actual poison like cyanide it won’t kill me as long as my mind is closed to it? There is no magic spiritual energy in the body, homeopathy is no better than a placebo. The debate is over, we have a consensus, the science is settled, we’ve reached the tipping point, anyone who disagrees must be a paid shill for the homeopathy industry #facetiousness.

          • Catriona

            Now you are being ridiculous.

          • RightofSingapore

            Pot.Kettle. Black

          • Catriona

            Nope, not a ‘paid shill’ for the homeopathy industry.
            Got it wrong.
            See what we have is ‘assume’ when we take that word apart what we have is ‘ass u me’.
            one shouldn’t assume things imo
            I mean, I don’t assume you are necessarily stupid because you don’t use Homoeopathy.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            http://www.faim.org/energymedicine/measurement-human-biofield.html
            turn off the TV and start educating yourself.

          • Lord Evans

            Like I’ve already said, CC, homeopathy is more akin to a religious cult i.e. a belief system, than a scientific treatment for illness.

          • Catriona

            Disagree

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Do you subscribe to any modalities outside of mainstream modern medicine?

          • Cadwallader

            What’s a modality? I subscribe to Whale Oil for its natural healing benefits and because it generally quarantines me from lefties and nut jobs. Seems to be working thus far….woops my leg just fell off!

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Lord the only thing that is like a religious cult is people like yourself who desperately try to convince
            those happily using homeopathy and bothering absolutely no one that it doesn’t and cannot work so they should stop it immediately especially when their doing so is their choice and has no effect on you whatsoever. What is even more astounding is that it almost never comes from a position of experience.
            It is just like a religios fervor.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Which homeopathic remedy did you use for this?

          • Catriona

            Didn’t know Homoeopathy had ‘sleeping pills”.

          • Steve (North Shore)

            The electric charge in the pills from the special machine that does this had a flat battery, I mean there is no way you would connect a pill charging machine to the national grid that has all of this electromagnetic waves. Small machine that has all elements in vials with micro battery power going through them; and then the Homeopathic Doctor tells you how sick you are – and how much it will cost per week/month until you die

    • G M B

      Totally agree Lord please read my posting above these guys should be held to account like builders or Doctors.

  • Rod

    I know from personal experience that quite a few prescription medicines do not work for me. Does that mean that conventional medicine is a load of bunkum?

    • BlitzkriegNZ

      You don’t represent everyone who has ever taken that medicine and the small amount of ones that don’t work for you don’t represent all of conventional medicine. The sarcastic conclusion you jump to in your comparison is hardly a fair comparison to what is proven to be nothing but sugar and water.

      • Catriona

        I digress – it is not sugar and water.

    • Lord Evans

      Nice try Rod, with your ‘Straw Man’ argument. We’re not challenging conventional prescription medicines, the debate here is whether or not Homepathy is proven to work. If you don’t have a rational point, then please refrain from clouding the water (no pun intended).

      • Coffee Connoisseur

        If it is whether homeopathy has been proven to work then what is the basis for this proof. You have on one hand modern science and modern medicine. On the other you have real life examples from people for whom it has been effective possibly including a family member.

        But lets take modern science. In tests conducted to date no it hasn’t been proven.

        It could be that it simply doesn’t work.

        It could also mean that the scientific experiments were not designed for homeopathy.

        There could be a number of other factors or external influences that meant that it was shown to be no more effective than a placebo.

        Under the right scientific conditions you might get a different outcome.

        I would conduct tests with groups of people who believe that homeopathy works and tests with groups of people who do not believe that homeopathy works.

        I’d conduct tests for groups of people with no prior exposure to or knowledge of homeopathy.

        I’d conduct tests with groups who only understand the existence of the physical body. I’d conduct tests with people who understand the existence of the physical, emotional and energetic bodies.

        I consider myself to have a very scientific mind but also understand that many things exist which are unexplainable at this point in science. I also understand that science is being overtaken by vested interests more and more to the point where results from science need to be questioned more now than at any other time in the history of modern science.

        Lastly
        “We’re not challenging conventional prescription medicines”
        Perhaps we should be. Conventional treatment for Cancer still revolves around radiation and chemotherapy. These have a very low success rate and destroy the immune system. In fact it is like hav9ng a beautiful flower garden, finding a weed and spraying the entire garden to kill the weed. No more weeds, no more flowers either.
        We should question everything much more than we do but at the end of the day everyone has their own life to live and personal choice is a massive part of that.

    • Mighty1

      Rod – For a medicine to work you first have to be sick. Then you have
      to take the correct medicine for the complaint you have, for the
      recommended duration. If your medicines did not work you were either
      not sick, taking the incorrect medicine, or not using it properly.

    • Effluent

      You’re also assuming that the ailment and the medication were correctly matched. It is quite possible that your doctor got the diagnosis wrong

      • Catriona

        But, but, but Dr’s are God aren’t they? How could they possibly get a diagnosis wrong?

    • Pharmachick

      Nope, it means that you are at [one of the] the far ends of the distribution curve. This isn’t uncommon – you may have a particular genetic variant that affects drug metabolism (most common) or drug receptors so the drug doesn’t bind as well and activate the physiological response.

      • Momo

        It could also mean that the dose is not high enough or you need another drug to complement it. There is also a chance you need to take it for longer.

        There are a number of pain medicines that require a certain enzyme that is missing in 20% of the population to work properly.

        All these are reasons why certain drugs may not have the desired effect.

        • Pharmachick

          Yep all good points. And the enzyme’s not missing … its a low activity variant that is common genetically.

          • Momo

            Yes. Was trying to explain in laymans terms!

          • Pharmachick

            Oh whoops, sorry – typical boffin mistake. I didn’t mean to be condescending.

  • Wheninrome

    Modern medicine often has its roots in the past or nature , although I wouldn’t say it was homeopathic, it is more about natural ingredients, what were found to work and what wasn’t.
    Modern medicine has taken the knowledge, built on it, improved and fine tuned for mass production. Although the mass use of some antibiotics and those things that kill 99.9% of bugs are starting to work against us. It is that 0.1% bug that probably is the problem by mutating.
    Give me my fast acting voltaren any day I am suffering muscle overuse, keeps me up and running, Good drugs. Play sport to keep fit!!!!

    The active ingredient of aspirin was first discovered from the bark of the willow tree in 1763 by Edward Stone of Wadham College. Now synthesised.

  • Michelle

    l have used it on myself, cows, cats and dogs with good results and if it hasn’t worked have resorted to medicines, if no improvement,
    l don’t believe in leaving anything in pain just to prove a point

    l have one remedy l use regularly because of my type of work where l get puncture wounds and if l don’t treat it l will end up with an infection, pain swelling etc and have the scars to show when l didn’t have it with me while on holiday and penicillin didn’t help either

    each to there own

    l look at it with an open mind it is not a cure all but can be useful for certain things

    some people give it a bad name with their woolly ideas

    • Catriona

      Excellent Michelle. That makes you either a Hippy or a Greenie according to Cameron Slater. I am neither so I have proved his theory wrong.

    • Do you just pour the water into their bowls or administer in some other sort of special way?

      • Wheninrome

        I find throwing a bucket of water or spraying it on them sorts out a lot of behavioural issues in cats.

      • Michelle

        l use small spray bottles

        it has saved me vet bills for cats with abscesses from fighting with townies dumped cats

        if it didn’t work he would have been into the vet pronto

        cows same

        l don’t push it on to other people it is a choice l made years ago to use if it it helps and also have other methods if it does not

        l also learnt alot about looking at animals closely to work out problem
        l am no touchy feely hope for the best/close my eyes to reality type of person, l am a realist,

        l can’t stand suffering so won’t hang round waiting for a miracle l will resort to penicillin, whatever treatment needed or vet

  • Ben

    Prince Charles believes in it so it must be right.

    • Momo

      He also wishes he was a tampon

  • Lance Ralph

    For more catastrophically idiotic piffle along the same ‘lines’ as homeopathy google the “Hartmann grid”. Here a dilettante mystic medic (Hartmann) observed that people in the same bed tended to die of similar ailments. From this Herr Hartmann deduced that there is a grid of ley line type energy that induces certain phenomena in certain locations. The Hartmann grid is sometimes used in placement of public art – but hopefully not in more important policy.

  • Do you homeopathy believers seriously believe that a remedy with a 100C dilution has actually gone through the 800 something manufacturing steps it would take to actually produce the product? Any efficacy in a homeopathic product is purely from the placebo effect – a documented and proven observation. To believe that it ‘works’ you have to believe in magic because there is zero science involved.

  • arnold zeiffel

    If homeopathy works then we would all be heathy because all the water in the world has already come in contact with everything and as water can not disappear off this world all we have to do is drink it and then we would be well so no one should be sick

    • …and we also would be unhealthy because it’s come into contact with all the things that make us unwell.

      • The logic of that is that the good and bad should cancel each other out and water, apart from it’s hydrating affect on our bodies, cannot actually be a remedy or cure of anything.

  • G M B

    I was talked into going to one of these guys buy a friend who believes in these people. I have MS and this guy took a thousand dollars a month off me for these herbal medicines. After about 8 months I saw no improvement what so ever and even experienced further progression . I was so desperate for a cure I’d try anything so I thought I’d break away from my conservative views and give this alternative medicine a go. My Doctor said stay away from these guys they’ll take your money for as long as they can. He was right this guy even talked me into colonic irrigation and other jungle type hokis pokis type crap. He even told me he had cured people with MS and I believed him. Modern medicine is no where near a cure for this disease and these jungle doctors should not be offering false hopes. The realisation that you’ve been conned hurts more than the money you’ve forked out. These idiots play on the mind and the placebo effect of what they’re offering to take your money. Most people can’t really measure relative improvements but it was clear as night and day for me 8k later. I was done out of pure desperation to try something.

    • Coffee Connoisseur

      Find yourself a good Naturopath and talk to them. Something about gluten and too much acidity in the diet. Good news is other than the consult it only needs to cost you in food. Remember you once had a healthy body that functioned properly. What was put into it or was it exposed to that resulted in it becoming out of balance that left unchecked for long enough lead to disease.
      It will astound you how little training Doctors get on food and nutrition.

      • Catriona

        Agreed. Did you know that in the UK you can now get a simple blood test to determine if you are Gluten intolerant or not. It only takes 10 minutes to get the results. No more things down into the gullet to snip off a piece of tissue or anything up the other end.
        And yes, there is so much preservative in food these days, that there has to be a co-relation between disease surely?
        I read somewhere the other day about the MSG – Monosodium Glutumate – in beer. You would be surprised and probably wouldn’t want to drink it any more.

        • RightofSingapore

          Perhaps one just needs to check their aura? *snigger*

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            go and have a kirlian photograph taken then come back for show and tell.

          • Catriona

            Hey CC , Right of Singapore wouldn’t even know what a kirlian photograph is.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            yes but I prefer to try and help people and point them in the right direction rather than simply point out their very limited view of the world we all live in.
            That said I understand their point of view and how they have arrived at it even if it is one without experience. What I can never comprehend is the almost religious fervor that comes with trying to convince those who are happily going about their lives occasionally using homeopathy that they are wrong.

          • Catriona

            Agreed. You have made an excellent point. And they accuse people who use Homoeopathy of belonging to a cult almost.
            Well, it’s not a religious cult so they have that wrong.

          • Wheninrome

            Might depend on how sweaty I was at the time as to what sort of “energy reading” I got.
            I might be suffering a fever, or on the other hand I might just be very hot.

          • Catriona

            Now, you are being sceptical.
            I said blood test – not aura reading.

        • Kirlian photography is achieved by passing high voltage, high frequency electricity through an object resting on photographic film. The resulting coronal discharge is caught on the exposure. If you took a photo of any inanimate object that can conduct electricity (or even a piece of dog poo) with a kirlian camera it would show as having an ‘aura’. More magic bunkum.

          • Coffee Connoisseur
          • Wheninrome

            Indeed, apparently it is also the water or sweat from the object. There was an interesting story about Kirlian pictures of a leaf as it dried out, the image changed, the “life force of the object” or “aura” changed.
            We believe what we want to believe, and generally large quantities of money changes hands. The more fear the more money.
            I recall a “Dr” Milan Brych who said he could cure cancer in people he did time in jail . He was involved in radiotherapy whatever that might mean.

        • Cadwallader

          I understand beer carries a female gene. It means you can’t drive but you can talk far too much!

          • Catriona

            Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit – just sayin……
            Don’t drink beer
            So, you’re allowed an opinion and the rest of us aren’t?
            I take it that you are a bloke

          • Cadwallader

            Well at least it’s wit. That’s all that was intended. Go and swallow a happy pill or two.

          • Catriona

            Getting nasty now Cadwallder. Which means you think you are in danger of losing the debate.
            Never been on a happy pill in my life nor do I need to drink copious amounts of booze to feel happy either

          • Cadwallader

            I wasn’t aware that I was being nasty, let alone that I had entered a debate.

          • SovereignSoul

            I think Homoeopathy is real but its not properly practised and its effects are over exaggerated and misunderstood. I don’t personally use it because you can achieve better results without paying anything… I think most peoples problems are caused by eating poorly, not sleeping enough, over exercising, etc. GP’s are guilty of not fixing these common causes of disease and just prescribing whatever drug that matches the symptom, which essentially is just blocking the message your body is trying to give you that something isn’t right, which will lead to something nastier down the track.

            But any ways this is a right wing blog, so stop telling people what they should and shouldn’t do, because being right wing is believing in freedom of choice and if someone wants to do homoeopathy, you better stick up for their right to do so, lest no one stick up for yours.

          • Catriona

            Well done SovereignSoul.

    • Momo

      This is why most doctors are vehement opponents of homeopathy.
      It may not cause physical harm but it gives false hope and removes finances at a time where they are needed most.

  • Citizen

    Its water! And by their own reckoning if you took homeopathic medicine, you’d be drinking Henry VIII’s urine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMvMb90hem8&spfreload=10

  • dgrogan

    The efficacy of water has never been in doubt, as it relates to hydration. Other than that, its medicinal value might be to deliver an active ingredient…oh wait…never mind.

    • MaryLou

      Like beer?

      • dgrogan

        Not quite what I had in mind, ML – but close enough! :)

  • kiwibattler

    Water is very good for you – 95% of the population should drink more of it.

    • Wheninrome

      What about the other 5%? They must be drinking enough of it.

      • kiwibattler

        “The independent results of this survey show that over a quarter of Kiwis drink less than two glasses of water per day – and less than 5% of the total respondents drink more than the recommended eight”.

        • What does that mean? I don’t specifically drink “water” as a separate beverage but have a tea, coffee and cook food in water (spuds, rice, pasta for instance) and never feel particularly dehydrated.

        • Rod

          Where does the “recommended eight” come from? I have not been able to find anybody who can give a definitive answer on this. My elderly mother (89) was in hospital for several weeks about a year ago, with kidney problems, and she thought she had been doing the right thing by drinking eight glasses a day. She was told to cut down to half that and her kidney function improved dramatically. Too much water flushes out vital minerals.

    • Cambo

      The stuff I have been drinking lately is 95% water.. does that count? :)

  • Tippex

    As a cancer survivor I owe my life to modern medicine. What history tells us about natural remedies is that our ancestor’s life expectancy was somewhat lower.

    • Coffee Connoisseur

      did you keep your diet the same or change it? Did you use chemo, radiation, go under the knife? Have you altered the environment in which the cancer was able to grow in the first place?

    • Catriona

      Not necessarily so. I have done research on some of my Ancestors who lived until 90 years of age. And I’m talking about people who born early 1800s.
      Hopefully, I’ve inherited the longevity gene.

      • Rod

        Some people have lived into the 90-100 bracket for many generations. What is indisputable is that the average age has increased with each generation throughout recorded history.

    • ShoreRight

      Same – chemotherapy and radiation pushed cancer into long term remission for me – 20 years + – and no I didn’t change anything in my diet or my “environment in which the cancer was able to grow” …….that is the kind of rhetoric from homeopathic supporters that is condescending and ignorant.

      It is entirely possible to get cancer in an otherwise healthy body , take the example of very young babies and toddlers who are diagnosed with cancer – how dare people make assumptions around lifestyle and environment for cancer patients when they have no knowledge of the individual case.

      Coffee Connoisseur’s comment has touched a nerve…. If I had opted for natural treatment I would have been pushing up daisies at least 20 years ago !

      I always find it interesting that such folk “try natural remedies first and then go to the Dr when they don’t have any effect” – go figure !

      • Tippex

        Brilliant riposte, ShoreRight. I resisted a reply to CC, but you’ve nailed it. Cancer respects nothing, and being viral in nature like the common cold will affect each individual differently. I’m 14 years in remission from an aggressive bowel cancer. No family history; just bad luck. Equally good luck to be here to relate. Thanks for sharing.

        • ShoreRight

          Thanks and good luck with ongoing remission, my consultant never said cure …just long term remission . Being a survivor has taught me many things, tolerances and flexibilities BUT I just won’t stand for people holding forth with that “it’s your fault you got cancer and heal your environment ” claptrap.
          All the best :)

      • Coffee Connoisseur

        My views on Cancer have Zero to do with my views on homeopathy.
        More to do with a number of people close to me having to deal with it right now. Including a mastectomy that turned out to be nothing.

  • Wheninrome

    Everyone, if it doesn’t work, there is always a complaint to Fair Go, they will sort it out.

    • Catriona

      No, I think Cameron’s favourite journo, Rachel Smalley should be the one to disprove Homoeopathy.

      • Cadwallader

        Rachael can barely prove a knowledge of the English language. In my mind the very word homeopathy would be beyond her…you know, sort of? Why enter her into this debate?

  • Catriona

    Gosh this post IS exciting.
    I can remember seeing a documentary once where a Monkey was cleaning her baby up i.e. her baby had diarrhoea and she was licking all the yukky diarrhoea off her baby. The commentator said they did this so that the mother would make antibodies in her milk to cure her baby.
    Sort of like Homoeopathy – like treats like.
    I thought it was fascinating.
    Ain’t nature wonderful?

    • ShoreRight

      What the hang are you suggesting now ?

      • Catriona

        Just saying what I saw. The commentator made the suggestion based on fact if I recall.
        Alternatively, you might like to try it on yourself and prove either way if it works or not!
        Let us know whey don’t ya?

        • ShoreRight

          Not withstanding that my babies are now adults – licking excrement off them while I was breastfeeding them to make anti- bodies in my milk wouldn’t have held much appeal for me …you are joking ?

          • Catriona

            Well, that’s what the Monkey Mumma did. Nobody told her it was yukky.
            No, I wouldn’t have done it either, but animals don’t know that some things are a no go – they operate purely on instinct.
            Seeing is believing as they say.
            When I was breastfeeding, there was an idiot Paediatrician where I lived who didn’t agree that certain types of food a breastfeeding mother ate would cause wind in babies. He reckons it wasn’t possible for the breast milk to be tainted.

        • Momo

          Would you like to be more specific than “a documentary that you once saw” so we can evaluate how you have interpreted this information?

          • Catriona

            I have excellent listening skills as it happens. I can’t remember the name of the Doco but I can clearly remember seeing the Mother cleaning the baby up and the commentary that went with it. I did not make this up. It is something which has stayed with me as I found it utterly fascinating. Just because you didn’t see the Doco doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist does it?

          • Momo

            No but we also have to rely on your interpretation rather than interpret it ourselves.
            Once again purely anecdotal and unable to be verified, whether or not you have “excellent” listening skills.

          • Catriona

            well, because you didn’t see it, means that you won’t want to accept that it is possible that much is obvious.

    • That statement shows you actually know nothing about homeopathy.

      • Catriona

        So what’s your knowledge on the subject then?
        I would have thought if you understood the basic principles of Homoeopathy and understood the ‘like treats like’ theory, then you would be able to understand why the commentator made the point.
        Let me guess – you’re a closet Homoepath? or you’re someone with a science-driven background who is unable to think outside the square.
        It’s really good to be a lateral thinker in my view – helps one to see things from so many different angles.

        • I know more than you obviously. ‘Like cures like’ does not mean licking poo from a baboons bum cures diarrheoa. If you knew anything about homeopathy you would know that ‘like cures like’ means that a substance that would cause an illness in an otherwise healthy person will when diluted, succussed on a leather bible (as Thomas Hahnemann said) and had the correct incantations said over it will cure a similar complaint in an ill person. For example – if you cannot sleep, caffeine (which causes sleeplessness) as the active ingredient in a homeopathic remedy will cure sleeplessness. So yes – I know more than you.

          • Catriona

            So, you are a supporter of Homeopathy then?
            And, no, I don’t have any witches hats or broomsticks or cauldrons hidden away in my closet.

          • jess

            hahahahah you have to be kidding me. What a joke.

          • I agree. I was just showing Catriona that I actually know what ‘like cures like’ means in homeopathic terms.

          • Catriona

            You just told me in an earlier post that you are not a supporter of Homoeopathy but have informed yourself sufficiently to know how it works. So you are an expert on the subject then?

          • Of course I informed myself about what homeopaths and their fellow travelers believe. Does not mean I believe it. It is delusional rubbish that relies on the innate belief in mystic and magical forces.

          • Catriona

            You’re entitled to your opinion on the subject Brian. I don’t care if you don’t go to a Homoeopath, nobody’s making you.
            Your opinion won’t stop people from seeking treatment from a Homoeopath. Nobody’s asking you to believe it – you don’t have to but according to the word of Brian, anyone who goes to a Homoeopath is delusional. Just as well we’re all different then ain’t it?

        • No, I am not a supporter or homeopathy but I have informed myself enough to know what they base their delusions on.

      • thehawkreturns

        quite right.

  • Pharmachick

    I’d like to address some factually incorrect statements made on this thread.

    1) “Pharmacists know more about medicine than Drs.”
    They do not.

    2) Pharmacists and Nurses are on the “fringe” of medicine.
    They are not. Day to day they are at the coal face in an increasingly integrated health care delivery system. The importance is good inter-preofessional training and interactions and knowing the role of the particular health care individual.

    3) Dilution to infinity leave an energy signature.
    It is possible that using super physics like the type used to look back into the universe in time – across light years and/or the type used to [recently] find the Higgs-Boson that energy signatures of molecules can be found. The idea of an energy echo after dilution actually more-or-less breaks a few of Newton’s Laws and Einstein’s theories.

    4) If a drug doesn’t work for me then maybe it doesn’t work for the whole population.
    The concept of variable response is bed rocked into medicine. Some people are hyper- or hypo responders. Usually due to genetics (different metabolizing enzymes, different drug receptors etc) occasionally due to environmental effects (heavy metal ingestion, fuel particulates, smoking etc).

    • Catriona

      Well, my daughter studied for four years to gain her Bachelor of Pharamacy.
      I have all her note here – all sorts of diseases are discussed and treatment plans.
      Are you suggesting a Dr then goes and does another four years of study to learn about the application of medicines? No, their knowledge of pharmacy and prescribing is part of their studies – not the whole of their studies.
      My bet is that the Pharamacists have a much broader knowledge of medicine than Drs.

      • Pharmachick

        What we teach Pharmacists about medications is less than Doctors because they don’t have to PRESCRIBE. They have as good if not better understanding of the difficult parts (such as Therapeutic Drug Monitoring) and often in hospitals Clinical Pharmacists are requested to do the difficult IV calculations, or to determine appropriate loading doses in special populations (such as in the NICU). Also in retail pharmacy, they become absolute experts at picking up adverse drug reactions, drug-drug interactions and dosing and/or prescribing errors. However, Pharmacists miss huge parts of the medicines/pharmaceuticals teaching curriculum for medicine because its not relevant. As an example, they get very little training in inhalational anesthetics. because its not part of their health care delivery role. I am not denigrating pharmacists – they’re awesome, and they do a fantastic job both in communities and in hospitals. But they have a different role to a medic, so their training, even as regards pharmaceuticals is different and more focussed – not broader.

        • Catriona

          Well I’m pleased to hear that.
          My daughter works very hard in her Profession and would hate to think people thought she was only good at counting pills.
          No, she doesn’t work in retail pharmacy – she works in other areas e.g. research for drug companies related to cancer treatment. She knows her stuff and she doesn’t knock Homoeopathy either. She has a very balanced outlook on life and acknowledges that conventional medicine doesn’t always work well for some people i.e. Eczema – modern medicine wants to lather Ezcema with a steroid cream to manage it. Conventional treatment doesn’t always look at what’s causing the eczema and look for ways of treating it. Whereas a Naturopath of a Homoeopath will take a thorough case history to find out what’s going on. My GP isn’t interested in taking a case history. The appointment is over in less than 10 minutes and out the door you go with a script.
          And the favourite treatment of choice for Babies with reflux is an antacid! Reflux must be a new phenonomen for babies as it was unheard of when I had my kids. Reflux in Babies can be very easily and effectively treated with Homeopathy – the baby doesn’t know what Homoeopathy is and so can’t put it’s little mind into action tricking it to believe that it’s a placebo.

          • Pharmachick

            Hey Catriona,
            I think we agree on almost everything … except the homeopathy bit. And I meant what I said – I think there is a lot of value in some alternative medicines, its just that for me homeopathy doesn’t make the grade. Perhaps in your case the homeopath is better at taking the case history and getting to root causes … pharmaceuticals seldom treat the disease (antibiotics notwithstanding) but we seem to have got really good at treating symptoms.

          • Catriona

            Thankyou for that Pharmachick. I am not a zealot when it comes to Homoeopathy – just acknowledge that there is some merit in it. For instance – I suffer from ongoing sinus problems – keep on taking antibiotics and prednisone. Well, I can’t do that forever. Initially, the Homoeopath I see from time to time, took a case history and slowly but surely we are working at unravelling stuff. Haven’t been on them for 12 months which is a biggie for me.
            There are some things out that don’t spin my wheels so to speak. I know some people knock Acupuncture. The Physio I go to treats with Acupuncture as well. There is an extremely good pressure point about three fingers width above the wrist which is helpful in dealing with nausea if you’ve got a tummy bug she told me. Good to now. I’ve used it and got relief.
            Basically, if something spins your wheels, then so be it – it’s not for the rest of the world to label you a religious nutcase etc. etc.
            And yes, you’re absolutely right – pharmaceuticals treat the symptoms and NOT the disease – it’s like putting a patch on and never mind what’s going underneath and which can’t be seen. My Homoeopath is also a Dr so I have the best of both worlds. All I want is to optimise my health. Far too busy to be bogged down with illness.

          • Momo

            Most reflux in babies is due to failure of the pyloric sphincter. This usually resolves by itself as the child gets older and therefore “cures” itself.
            Antacids, proton pump inhibitors and other methods of reducing gastric acid will reduce painful symptoms.

          • Catriona

            It was never around when my kids were little. And all of a sudden, it’s common for babies to have the condition.

          • Momo

            Yes. Medicine is never finite. There are research developments and new investigations and cures that mean that therapy that did not exist “in your day” has since been developed.

            Once again, these must be proven (or currently investigated as part of a trial) before being licensed to use on patients. Homeopathy has no such burden of proof.

          • thehawkreturns

            Lets see – -your doctor gets 10 minutes with you and has big expenses and charges 30 -50$. The Homoeopath likely charges 80$ with no expenses.

          • Catriona

            It costs $45 to see my GP for 5 minutes. When I see the Homoeopath the consultation is usually an hour to 1hr 15m.
            Whose ripping who off?

          • Steve

            Depends on what you are seeing the GP for. If you’re on the books then its most likely there is an existing history on file. They’re trained to pick up serious problem pretty quickly and order a blood test or imaging. Dosen’t take more than 10minutes. GPs are trained extensively in a scientifically tested discipline, medicine. They’re not on the specialist tier but know pretty quickly when you need to see one. Dosent take 10 minutes.
            Visiting your homeopath you may as well be visiting your hairdresser. It will take more than10 minutes and the conversation will be equally as riviting

      • jess

        Only funnily enough it’s Dr’s who are the ones who actually apply their knowledge of illness and actually prescribe medicines. Pharmacists are mere dispensers.

        • Catriona

          The numerous boxes of Pharamcy notes in storage here belonging to my daughter demonstrates she does have a very good knowledge of illness. Are you suggesting that Pharmacists don’t know what they are dispensing – just following instructions from the Doc?

        • thehawkreturns

          No they aren’t.

          • Catriona

            Well, it’s nice to agree on something. Jess has just shown her ignorance somewhat. My daughter would be furious if anyone made such a comment to her.

          • Steve

            Most of the time they are. But I see the point you’re trying to make.

      • Momo

        It is a shame she hasn’t read or understood her notes.
        No university in NZ advocates homeopathy as a credible cure.

        • Catriona

          She has never advocated Homoeopathy as a credible cure.
          She just happens to respect individual’s rights to choose their health provider.
          Amazing once again, that you are now putting a spin on something that isn’t there.
          She happens to have an open, enquiring mind which is something you don’t appear to have.
          She’ll have a laugh when I tell her, according to you that she is ‘advocating Homoeopathy as a credible cure’. She has never said that nor have I.

      • thehawkreturns

        You are betting that after 4 years of studying Pharmacology that Pharmacists have a BROADER knowledge of Medicine than a doctor who has spent 6 years studying Medicine? Can I play poker with you?

        • Catriona

          She is a Pharmacist, not a Pharmacologist – two different things.
          And yes, according to her, she has a broader knowledge of drugs and how they work than Doctors. She can’t help it if she has had an extensive career as a Clinical Pharmacist and is now working in research for an Internationally renowned company – and works very closely with medical teams.
          She has done a lot of work in Palliative care as well. I’d be glad to have her on my team if I got really sick.

  • What an interesting debate. When you have no science revert to mumbo jumbo about ‘energy levels’ Sorry guys but the only energy measurable at an atomic level is the wavelengths of a particular atomic microstructure. In the case of homeopathy the energy level (whatever that is in the context of this debate) would be that of water as there would be nothing of the so-called remedy left. And as far as I know even at the most subatomic level we have yet to determine empirically the existence of an energy ‘memory’. The idea of this so called memory of the homeopathic remedy is a creation of believers to explain this non-science.

    Of course people will report ‘cures’ because of taking a homeopathic remedy but truth is that the body is great at self healing. Maybe if we balanced all those who were somehow cured against the millions for whom nothing happened other than placebo effect we would find absolutely no clinical benefit worth recording. As for doctors prescribing homeopathic remedies, frankly all they are doing is conning a gullible public and relying on the power of suggestion … “Take this and you’ll feel better .. ” And of course you will do as an ‘expert’ has told you so.
    And as for the remedy, absolute (but no doubt chargeable) tripe.

    • Catriona

      Disagree with your view on Drs prescribing Homoeopathic remedies. They also under go extensive training to be able to become a Practitioner of Homoeopathy – it’s not self-taught. If the Homoeopath you are seeing isn’t registered and isn’t a qualified Practitioner, then you should find someone who is. And it’s not a case of ‘take this and you’ll feel better’.

      • JMC7

        The fact it isn’t self-taught is not in itself a guarantee of quality. For goodness sake, witch-doctors who read bones, prescribe FGM and practice sacrifice are taught by other witch-doctors in their turn! It means nothing without independent academic rigour being applied to the education of the would-be practitioners.

        When your daughter did her degree in pharmacy she will have been trained by educators who themselves were subject to peer review, as is every single fact she will have been taught. Where is the equivalent rigour around research and awarding qualifications in Homeopathy, for which there is no independently verifiable evidence of efficacy?

        Your daughter’s training is diminished by the suggestion of some kind of equivalence with the training of Homeopaths.

        • Catriona

          I never drew a comparison of the training involved between Pharmacists and Homoeopaths at all. That’s your spin on it.

          • JMC7

            You introduced your daughter’s qualifications, presumably to add weight to the fact that she apparently supports Homeopathy. You also introduced the supposed training that Homeopaths undergo. I’ve suggested that in doing so you have invited such a comparison, whether that was your intention or not.

            But given you didn’t make the direct comparison yourself, and for the avoidance of any accusations of spin I’ll ask you to make the comparison now. The “extensive training” the Homeopaths undertake, is it superior or inferior to that of your well qualified daughter?

    • Coffee Connoisseur

      “What an interesting debate. When you have no science revert to mumbo jumbo about ‘energy levels’ ”

      yes because the body doesn’t have energy..no wait yes it does!

      http://www.faim.org/energymedicine/measurement-human-biofield.html

      .

      • Catriona

        It sure does. But then the sceptics wouldn’t be able to understand that or even acknowledge it.

      • I was referring to the so called ‘memory’ of the original substance which ipso facto must be a waveform if it exists, and that’s a very big if. But if you are going to reference anything at all at least refer to scientific papers that have been peer reviewed, not pop-science and opinion.

        • Coffee Connoisseur

          But it is theoretically possible yes?

          • No. There is nothing to measure. Remember a 200c dilution is the equivalent of one ml of the so-called active in a body of water larger than the known universe.

        • Pharmachick

          Yes (it must be a waveform) and so hence No (because: Doppler).

        • Momo

          They don’t know the difference.

  • Momo

    When homeopathic cures and alternative medicines are subject to the same rigorous testing and randomised controlled trials that conventional medicines must go through prior to being approved, I will believe they work.

    Until then, I believe they are simply a way to part idiots from their money.

    • thehawkreturns

      Too right. Removing money from idiots is very important to rebalance the economy.

  • Catriona

    What I’d like to know is how many of the sceptics in this post wear a copper bracelet around their wrist? And why? Because someone told you it stops something or did something?
    How many of you, also, run around in cars with a piece of leather dragging on the ground because some ‘idiot’ told you it stops motion sickness?

    • Tippex

      No copper, but more than happy to wear a gold ring for my wife who endured so many months of my nausea, vomiting and ‘chemo brain’ as the thoroughly unnatural 5 Fluorouracil dealt to my cancer.

      • Pharmachick

        Bless.

        5FU is one of the real chemo nasties for vomiting and nausea.

        Happy New Year, you’re +1 more … that’s a great thing.

      • Catriona

        Cancer has struck my family and sadly, not a good result.
        I know how ill people can be when undergoing treatment for Cancer.
        Not a pretty sight.
        All the best to you…..

    • Momo

      I’ve never heard of these things either.

      • Catriona

        Well, I certainly have so that’s not to say they don’t exist. Lots of people wear them for whatever reason – arthritis being one of them -(and I’ll bet their GP’s secretly laugh at the notion) and my bet is that there will be some knockers on this thread who do and can’t/won’t admit to it for fear of being labelled a crazy person.
        I have a friend whose husband is a GP and she used to take her kids to the Homoeopath when they were little. Funny that.

        • Momo

          Once again, what’s your point? A few unnamed individuals use quackery. One is married to a doctor. So what?

          • Catriona

            Yes, I get the picture you are a medical hotshot but that doesn’t make you God does it? And quite frankly, I don’t give a damn. I also have another daughter who is a medical professional – thank goodness she doesn’t operate with a closed mind. Whether you like it or not – people will seek other ways of dealing with problems – or ‘use quackery’ as you put it.
            And once again there will be a lot of posters on this thread who find it too embarrassing to admit they wear a copper bracelet for whatever reason and, no I don’t wear one.
            So you’ll be knocking Acupuncture then will you? Quackery according to you is it?

          • Momo

            I have already said I’m open to anything that has been proved beneficial. My mind is closed to homeopathy until it can be proven. I challenge you to prove something and you come up with nothing. I can produce proof of the benefits of every drug I prescribe. I can also tell you the adverse effects. Why? Because they are vigourously tested.

            Your emotive ramblings and anecdotal stories are not proof that homeopathy is beneficial.

          • Catriona

            Yes, but are you telling patients of the side effects of the drugs you prescribe to your patients? My bet is you’re not. No GP who has ever prescribed for me has also told me of the side effects? Now why is that?
            You can wave your big ‘Im a hot shot medico’ stick around all you like, but that will never stop people from seeking alternative treatment for the ailments now will it? No, it won’t.
            I am not saying whether it’s beneficial or not. My opinion (to which I am entitled by the way) is that some people find it helps with a number of problems, and I certainly am finding my sinus symptoms easing. I haven’t been on antibiotics or prednisone for 12 months since working with my GP Dr/Homoeopath. She understands what’s going on, my old GP was simply disinterested and never once made a suggestion that we needed to look deeper into why the all the problems. So much easier to nod and and look at this his computer screen and type out a script.
            So for me, certainly, there is relief and I will keep going down that track for as long as it takes to manage the condition and if it comes to a point where I need to take a course of antibiotics from time to time, then so be it. But it is good to be antibiotic free I have to say. Thank goodness I was referred to this GP/Homoeopath – she has been a lifesaver.
            You should take the argument up with the next GP/Homoeopath you run across – that will make for an interesting debate.

          • Momo

            Of course we discuss side effects of drugs. It is part of informed consent.

            Has your Homeopath ever told you that none of these therapies have shown to have any proven benefits?

          • You are bashing your head against the wall of Catriona’s fanaticism.

          • Catriona

            I don’t consider it fanaticism. Obviously getting under your skin.

          • Momo

            Yes. I realise that now.

            I’m disengaging with her. She is getting more hysterical. Perhaps I should prescribe her some diazepam.

            Sometimes I wish I didn’t have to work with ethical standards. I could make a fortune.

          • Before you prescribe her some diazepam just make sure you dilute in a trillion trillion times at least. It wont work otherwise.

          • Momo

            I was going to say a tiny weeny dose of diazepam but I thought that might make her explode with rage.

            Just mentioning the diazepam has caused more ranting. Paradoxical effect? May need to report it to Medsafe as a new unexpected side effect.

          • Catriona

            Thought you were disengaging? Whose ranting now? Perhaps you’ve got a bottle of diazepam handy so I’m suggesting it would beneficial for you to take some.
            Calm you down – got you worked up in a real tizz. Or should I say got you in a real lather.

          • Catriona

            Making assumptions there Brian. If you look at the word ‘assume’ it actually looks like this ‘ass u me’. You couldn’t be more wrong. Counselling the Doc now are we? Well, who would have thought? Got the Doc’s hackles up. So much for freedom of speech – people like you and him/her want to shut people up. In his/her case it’s with a good dose of diazepam – treading in dangerous territory me thinks when you have a Dr who THINKS like that.

          • Steve

            Well you could always recomend it is washed down with a generous swig of snake oil…….

          • Catriona

            The comment you have made about prescribing me Diazepam is unprofessional – so that’s what you think is it – shut a hysterical woman up with a script for diazepam.
            You are nothing but a professional drug dealer.
            I pity any patients who have the misfortune of ever seeking your advice. So that’s your party trick is it?
            Your attitude is very pious indeed.
            I am a very sane individual and have never ever needed to be treated for hysteria as you put it.

          • Catriona

            I don’t consider myself a fanatic. You will never find me on street corners ‘showing people the way’.
            It is something I choose to use from time to time with the help of an excellent GP who also happens to be a Homoeopath but you choose to label anyone who uses Homoeopathy as a fanatic. I keep it to myself and choose to divulge it only to people I completely trust so that I don’t find myself being put down by skeptics for daring to do something different. I’m wondering what remedy would be useful for your closed mind? Since you know about Homoeopathy, you might be able to to the research and find something to fit your symptoms.

          • Catriona

            My GP has never ever discussed side effects of drugs. For instance, he has never told me that even one dose of prednisone will do damage to the body.
            And no, my Homoeopath hasn’t told me that none of these therapies have shown to have any proven benefits.
            Homoeopathy is not a ‘one size fits all’ therapy like western medicine. If you knew a smidgen about Homoeopathy you would understand that.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            those who try homeopathy like me and find themselves a noticeable difference (if that’s placebo so be it so long as it works) are the ones who I suspect will carry on with homeopathy. Funny thing is alternative medicine is growing in usage as there is less trust of modern medicine for many.
            As for discussing side effects, you would be one of the few but it should happen a lot more than it does.

          • Momo

            There are a few (albeit weak) studies showing that acupuncture may be beneficial in certain situations.

            What is the relevance to homeopathy? Which has not been shown to be beneficial in any way?

          • Catriona

            Really. So you have an opinion on Acupuncture now do you? Acupuncture has been around far long than the medicine you practice. No, there is no relevance to homeopathy but you will no doubt label it ‘quackery’ as well.
            There are plenty of Drs in NZ offering acupuncture to their patients and clearly you are not one of them.
            I suggest you to take up the efficacy or lack of with a Dr of Acupuncture and tell him/her that it might or might do any good. You might learn something useful and, who knows, beneficial to your patients at some stage.
            Perhaps you need a trip to China to study Acupuncture and understand how it works. Go tell the Masters themselves that there are a few weak studies showing that it may be beneficial and that your way is better.

          • Momo

            Why can I not have an opinion on acupuncture? I have read about the areas that are relevant to me. There is some evidence of benefit. This is not what this thread is about.

            Your hysterical arguments are nonsensical. Continue to spend your money how you wish. You are right, we can’t stop patients spending their money on homeopathy but we can educate them. Like smokers, there will be those who chose to listen and those that don’t. It’s your body and your wallet.

            Good luck.

          • Catriona

            Well I think this is exactly what this thread is about – people’s right to look at other forms of treatment outside of conventional western medicine. Homoeopathy is a very controversial topic and there are some of us who use it and some who don’t.
            Just because some people choose to go to a Homoeopath doesn’t make them unhinged. But in a post you make the comment that anyone who goes to a Homoeopath is an idiot.
            All I can say is that I am thankful to have found this GP – who understands what I endure and doesn’t think I’m making it all up.
            I have Acupunture treatment for my sinus problems as well. My GP thinks it compliments the Homoeopathy.

  • Coffee Connoisseur

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/15/homeopathy-works-scientific-evidence
    interesting article to say the least
    Excerpt

    “In February, the “sceptics” campaign had a breakthrough – a report from the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee recommended no further NHS funding for homeopathy, despite a deeply flawed hearing.

    The Society of Homeopaths – the largest body representing professional homeopaths – was refused permission to give oral evidence. Also notable by their absence from the panel were primary care trusts who currently commission homeopathy and representatives of patients who use homeopathy. Yet oral evidence was heard from a journalist previously investigated by the Press Complaints Commission for unsubstantiated criticism of homeopaths, and a spokesperson for a charity that has long publicly opposed homeopathy. It is significant that one of the four MPs asked to vote on the report abstained due to concerns about the lack of balance in the evidence heard.”

    • Catriona

      I have just read this link. I’d like to challenge all the sceptics on this thread to read it – with an open mind of course – and if they don’t understand it, well that’s their choice. At least if you read it, you might gain just a wee bit of understanding and not be so quick to knock it when the word Homoeopathy comes up in conversation. You only show our ignorance, in my opinion, when you opine very strongly about a topic of which you have no knowledge.

      • Momo

        You have demonstrated an incredible lack of understanding of any biochemistry or physiology yet you accuse others of ignorance.

        Before you question my credentials, I have a BSc in Biochemistry and Physiology and a Medical degree. I also have specialised in Anaesthesia and Pain Medicine.

        Edit: Grammar corrected

        • Catriona

          Well I’ve certainly ruffled your feathers. All I have suggested is that people take a look at the thread and look at it objectively.
          You will, naturally, have a closed mind in regard to anything that’s not mainstream medicine.
          Settle down – we’re not likely to ever cross paths.

          • Momo

            I have a closed mind to unproven quackery. Show me any beneficial evidence. Anything. And I will be open to it.

            I will not expose my patients to therapies that cost them money and have no proven benefit.

            Anyone that causes harm to a patient will “ruffle my feathers”.

            Spend your money how you wish. Some people burn it with cigarettes, others gamble, you buy expensive water.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            sometimes I get the impression its more important for those in the field of modern medicine to be right than it is to fix people.
            My wife was diagnosed with hypothyroidism she was given three options by her Dr. Have her thyroid removed, have it radiated with radio active iodine so that it no longer works at all, and third be on hormone replacement hormones for the rest of her life.
            She instead did her own research not being happy with any of the options from mainstream medicine. Instead she found a good homeopath, changed her diet, was given a course of homeopathy and accupuncture and within two months no longer had any sign of hypothyroidism. Blood tests every 6 months confirmed this.
            The sad thing is that it runs in her family and her Grandmother, some of her cousins and one of her nieces all have it. They believed the modern medicine and had their thyroid removed. They now are on hormone replacement therapy for the rest of their lives.
            Modern medicine in an emergency can’t beat but for many many other things there are better options out there.

          • Sunshine

            “changed her diet” most likely had a greater effect than any homeopathic remedy.

        • Coffee Connoisseur

          exactly what is the incredible lack of understanding of any biochemistry or physiology?

    • Second time around

      If the Society was going to give nothing but anecdotal evidence, there could be a sound basis for excluding their contribution. In any case, even if the enquiry they ran in Britain was defective, it might affect the economics of homeopathy but could have no affect whatsoever on its efficacy, or lack of efficacy.

      • Coffee Connoisseur

        very dangerous position to take with a democratic process. sort of misses the point.

  • Coffee Connoisseur

    Good information here also
    http://www.marlev.com/HowItWorks.htm

  • Tippex

    Cheers ShoreRight, and congratulations on your victory. I’ve been a fan of WO for years, but this is my first ‘toe in the water’ commenting. I guess if one is sufficiently passionate enough, and moved by (mostly) intelligent debate; then this is the ideal forum.

  • I went to a lecture once where a guy ate about ten boxes of homeopathic sleeping pills (all with warnings on the labels about the dangers of exceeding the recommended dose of 1-2 capsules). He must have eaten 300 tablets. Guess what happened to him?

    Absolutely nothing.

    If he ate a tenth of that number of Zopiclone sleeping tabs (a real pharmaceutical) he would have been dead in an hour.

    As an interesting note the pills he was consuming had two active homeopathic ingredients. A 60C Caffeine dilution and a 30C Caffeine dilution. Never could figure that one out. How did the magic water know not to mix the “energy” from the two different dilutions of the same active ingredient? Amazing!

    • MaryLou

      Seems to me they can’t have it both ways.They say it cannot harm you, but in the same breath they say it can help you. If it is to have any effect at all, surely most must be possible, as per your story above.

      Likewise this can be a cautionary tale regarding other natural supplements. 10 years ago I had my thyroid removed. Whilst getting the biopsies done beforehand, I rushed off in a panic to the local natural health shop, who gave me a thyroid supplement. Took it to the hospital with me later – the specialist was quite disgusted and asked me whether I knew if I had hyper or hypo thyroidism (I didn’t, hence the need for a biopsy) – and if not what on earth was I doing taking something that could conceivably make the situation worse!

      So – if homeopathy can do no harm, I don’t believe there is any way it can do any good.

  • hookerphil

    Before I had open heart surgery 6 years ago to replace a valve I went on a 12 month trial. Took a pill every day, the aim was to delay deteriation of the heart. Became quite convinced it was working and felt a lot better for it. After the trial finished was advised that my pill was a placebo, other getting the real deal mostly appeared to suffer from side effects. I believe you can/will believe anything you want to, if it helps -good, just do not pay to much for it.

  • Monty Bank

    Classic
    There’s an ad on this page-today for Barb’s Homeopathy

  • Marby

    Im sorry, but I am not a hippy, nor am I a greenie. When all orthodox medicine did nothing for my children I turned to homeopathy and it worked…..straight away. One of the scientific proofs in anything is OBSERVATION. Give a remedy and watch for the result. I am 57 years old and have had 4 children. My first from the age of 25. So that would give me (until now) 32 years experience in taking my kids to GPs who were bloody useless at fixing their ailments! Antibiotics, creams and crap that did nothing. After a while a mother gets pretty sick of all that. So you try the alternatives and….hello….some of it ACTUALLY works. You cant explain it….but for YOUR kids, it actually works. Something your GP has been trying to fix for months is fixed in a coupla days with a homeopathic remedy….go figure. Dont rubbish people for buying it when it has actually worked for them. I have used it on my animals. They have no idea what they are given, so you cant use the “placebo effect” explanaton on them. I have cured stuff with homeopathy, and you can moan about it all you like….its still worked for me, my children, my grandchildren, and my pets. Just wondering actually, why there is such an ANTI feeling on Whale Oil about this PARTICULAR alternative medicine. Its not really hurting anybody. Why the ruckus?

  • Will Travers

    A medication without side effects is a medication without effect. To put it another way the effect of a medication is a side effect in a different context.

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