Josie Pagani has bigger balls than all our MSM and the rest of the left-wing blogosphere

I like Josie Pagani, she is an honourable lefty, and someone who actually has her head screwed on right.

She has written a post at Pundit which puts the rest of the left-wing blogosphere and all of the mainstream media to shame.

Her courage should be applauded.

[T]his must be crystal clear – Charlie Hebdo, the editorial team, the cartoonists and the staff are not to blame for their own murders.

The brave and just response to the Paris murders is to stand up for freedom of speech –  no buts, no qualifiers.

Some will use the slaughter in Paris to whip up anti-Islamic sentiments. Marine Le Pen, France’s far-right leader, has already compared Muslims in France to the German occupation of the 1940s. George Packer of the New Yorker fears ‘today might very well be the day that Marine Le Pen became President of France.’

Her attempt to demonise all of Islam is tactical and ugly. The majority of muslims are peaceful and live comfortably alongside christians, jews and atheists. Anyway, the tactic of terror is to provoke a backlash against all Islam and vindicate their teaching of victimhood.

Le Pen’s views must be rejected.

But it is also true that an extremist faction of Islam does not want to live in peace and believes that purity can only be realised by killing infidels and moderate muslims.

These ideas and this barbaric strand of Islam must be named and shamed. It is just as important to stand up for the Kurdish muslim woman in combat gear fighting for her right not to wear a hijab, as it is to stand up for the right to wear one on the streets of Sydney and not be attacked.

So refreshing to hear a person of the left decry the barbarism, sexism and terrorism of Islam, without resorting to weasel excuses about culture. Theirs is a culture of hate and destruction, we must reject it, by force if necessary.

We must also resist the weak implication in some analysis that the victims, the satirists at Charlie Hebdo, contributed in some way to the crime; that they should have thought twice before offending Islam.

Yesterday, condemning the killing, Grant Robertson said supporting freedom of expression can mean walking ‘a moral tightrope’. Challenged to explain the ‘tightrope’ he stated he was against the slaughter, but didn’t identify what made this morally uncomfortable (and on Facebook commented: “Charlie Hebdo has been controversial in its cartoons and depictions, but nothing can ever justify such brutality as we have seen today.”)

To see how disturbing this is, imagine if the entire cast of 7 Days were slaughtered for laughing at extreme Islam – and he had then said “7 Days has been controversial in its comedy but…”

No one doubted Grant would be against killing. It doesn’t take much courage to oppose mass slaughter. What takes courage, and is vitally important, is to stand up for the right to offend people. Full stop.

There is no moral tightrope here. As Phil Quin said, it is a moral boulevard leading to undiluted outrage at slaughter, unqualified support for the right of satirists everywhere to lampoon the pious, powerful and stupid.

It’s easy to fight for views you agree with. Freedom to express views without fear of violence or death is about freedom to express views you don’t agree with.

Satire is nearly always bruised and bloody in a fight for freedom of speech because its role is to mock and hold the powerful to account.

She is totally correct. There can be no qualifier as Grant Robertson used. You either condemn the actions or excuse the actions…the moment someone starts with a condemnation and then inserts a “but” followed by some weasel excuse, they are showing a) their cowardice, and b) their tacit approval through silence of the actions of terrorists.

There can be no “buts”, “maybes”, or “what ifs”.

Free expression is crucial to progress and civilisation because the foundation of modernity and enlightenment is the ability to express ideas that offend religions and authorities, such as that the earth goes around the sun.

We must stand up to a violent fascist faction of Islam that will kill to destroy the modern separation of church and state, because they preach that for man to rule over man is to usurp the role of God.

This is not a struggle between Islam and Christianity. It is fight between modern civilisation and barbarism.

Medieval barbarism has no place in our world.

Well done Josie, stand tall.


– Pundit


THANK YOU for being a subscriber. Because of you Whaleoil is going from strength to strength. It is a little known fact that Whaleoil subscribers are better in bed, good looking and highly intelligent. Sometimes all at once! Please Click Here Now to subscribe to an ad-free Whaleoil.

  • Sorry WO – while her sentiments are in the right direction, she still buys the line that the terrorists are influenced by some radical and off-beat ‘strand of Islam’. They are Salafists and they are the largest and most influential ‘strand of Islam’ that there is. They have the money, the backing of entire states and their rulers and a compliant West who won’t admit to the war that has already started.

    • Cadwallader

      I agree Brian. I suggest if anyone wants a chilling portrayal of this week’s terrible events and the circumstances giving rise to it, take a look at Lindsay Perigo’s guest post on Not PC.(It may also be on his Solopassion blog.) If anyone is looking for a few lines to print on a tee-shirt there are numerous ones there which warrant a keen eye.

    • mike

      What if a militant radicalised faction of Christianity came to power in Europe and acted in the same manner as ISIS? Strict adherence to the Bible with no tolerance for dissent.

      What if this fictional faction used the same tactics as ISIS and AQ, resorted to the same punishments as used in our darkest history… crucifixion, stoning and the like.

      Would you call for a war agadir all Christians?

      While this scenario is unlikely it is not impossible. And we should be very careful to not set a precedent from which we cannot come back from.

      Our fight is not with Islam it is with a group of people who claim adherence to a faction within Islam. They don’t speak for everyone within Islam. They are not representative of every Muslim just like the Pope doesn’t speak or represent all Christians.

      We need to temper our anger and act in a reasoned, logical and sensible fashion to fight this fight. If not we risk becoming what we hate and despise about our enemy.

      • Jimmie

        The difference Brian is this: For a Christian faction to do this would be to act contrary to their Holy Book (Bible)

        However for Muslims to kill and murder non-muslims they would be acting in complete agreement with their ‘holy’ book (Quran)

        That is the difference and this is why countries that have let multitudes of Muhammadans to come an settle in their countries (in the name of multiculturalism) are akin to Van Gough cutting off his ear in the name of art. (Has bad side effects)

        • mike

          Have you read Deutoronomy recently? Last I checked that was part of the Bible.

          • Jimmie

            No where (Old Testament & New Testament) in the Bible are Christians required to, encouraged to, or sanctioned to kill anyone in the name of their faith

            In fact there are many scriptures that forbid it.

            A couple of examples follow:

            But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 1 Peter 4:15

            Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3;15

            Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight,….. but now My kingdom is not from here.
            John 18:36

            Don’t forget much of Deuteronomy is civil law given to the Hebrew people to help transform them from a paradigm of slavery into an organised nation.
            If you judge some of the particular laws by today’s standards they may seem fairly harsh however remember many of the modern general principles of law have derived from the Deuteronomical legal code.

          • Cadwallader

            I really do recommend and in fact urge you to read the Book of Judges Chapter 19. Not only will you find murder there’s enough misogyny to sink a ship. Not a good place at all.

          • mike

            Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)
            6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your handmust be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from theLord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

          • Albert Lane

            Yes, but those scriptures were written a very long time ago, and Christian civilisation has progressed to a stage where the bible is regarded as a guide – not as an instruction manual.

          • mike

            Yes we don’t take the Bible seriously. But as my original post asked what if a Christian sect rise to power and did take it all seriously.

            What if the radical Muslim leaders stopped taking it seriously?

            It not the faith that is the problem. It’s the people enacting the faith.

          • PharmaBloke

            It’s easy to ” cherry pick ” bits from the bible to justify just about anything you like. And reading the bible strictly literally is similarly lazy and dishonest. On the other hand, how to understand OT commands to obliterate nations , or (the sadly many ) historic abuses in the name of God? A view I find helpful is to consider the scriptures as a 2 steps forward 1 step back journey traveling towards a progressively better understanding of both Hos and humankind. The pinnacle of that is Jesus, self sacrifice, love for your enemies and your neighbour , and bring grasped by Gods grace. Anything less than that is IMHO seriously lacking.

            I am unsure if the Koran can, or should be read similarly. One hopes so, but one suspects not ..,.. Where is the M response to assure us this sort of recent activity is contrary to Islams scriptures ?

            ( discl. – I try to follow Jesus )

          • mike

            You’re right it is easy to cherry pick from the bible… just as it is with the Koran (and boy oh boy do we do that.)

            Why can’t you read the bible literally, where does it say that’s it allegory and open to interpretation, or that you are allowed to ignore some entire sections because they are “out of date” or no longer required? Who gets to decide this?

            Either the Bible is Gods word and as such is infallible… or its not and is just another work of fiction. You can’t have it both ways.

          • PharmaBloke

            and that’s where scholarship and common sense come in. Genesis isn’t a science textbook, Leviticus was a specific communal code for a specific time ( with some community hygiene stuff well before it’s time), Psalms are poetry ( the highs and lows of life), Proverbs is wisdom literature, the Gospels an account of Jesus’s life ( who told most of his message with stories, allegory and even hyperbole), and Revelation is coded language vision stuff ( and thus not very accessable)
            I’d wager you apply the same interpretive cautions to the distinction between fiction and researched history, between personal love letters and the likes of your will, between TV documentaries and Breaking Bad….. and even to reading MSM and this website :)
            As for this whole French thing, I guess I’m struggling to understand if this is a Muslim thing in terrorist clothes, or vice versa.

          • mike

            Yes I do. I do not see the Bible as a valid guide to how to live nor as a literal rule book.

            I see the Bible as a work of fiction.

          • OneTrack

            I’ll read it when Christian groups start running around shooting 12 people who simply published cartoons. Until then, Islam is the clear and present danger which we ignore at our peril.

          • mike

            Christian groups who believe in that book murder doctors and nurses who work in abortion clinics.

            What’s the difference?

      • Cadwallader

        Mike, the problem we are all left with is to know who to trust.(Life itself really.) But ascertaining which Muslims to accept as the non-militant terror mongering types is a difficulty. It is akin to walking through a jungle allowing every snake to bite you until you find the one which isn’t venomous.
        I concede that we need to “temper our anger” but this is a contextual issue. Anger becomes creative and effective when it is perfectly aimed and perfectly timed. Now, I suggest, is that time.

        • exactchange

          It is true we may not know in advance who are secret jihadists. As witness the 4 brothers from Sydney. one still a teenager. who let for Syria. They all lived at home, but their mother said she had no idea they were radicalised. Mind you she was also quoted as saying “You are good at heart. You have done nothing wrong. Come back.”

          Hard to believe she did not suspect something, with 4 of them conspiring in the household. Perhaps she really agreed with their views. How many more families are out there closing their eyes to the actions and beliefs of those closest to them.

          • bristol

            That;s the trouble with Muslim kids these days, they blow up so fast!

          • Albert Lane

            Of course they know what their kids are up to. But what would they be able to do about it? Tell the cops? There are no easy solutions.

        • mike

          Have you read Deutoronomy lately?

          • Cadwallader

            Yes. Is your question rhetoric?

          • mike

            Sorry that was intended for Jimmie.

        • TSD

          Cadwaller, what you say rings true, particularly the reality of the fact that who to trust is a daily decision in all parts of life.

          A good start to ensure the structure of our society which creates a standard of living that is so attractive to others would be for the government to unilaterally declare an enduring order that the will only ever be one law in NZ and it will be secular.

          Religious belief is the right of the individual, but if they want to hold it here they must accept that religious law is not allowed. Sharia is not compatible with humans rights and other ideals our country believes in and treatise we have signed up to.

          If it is unacceptable to someone to be subject to the nation’s law then they can leave. This doesn’t hinder their expression of their belief any more then the law not allowing you to kill and eat your neighbor limits other cultures.

          The only way to ensure religious freedom is for government and the law to be free of it.

          • Cadwallader

            Well put. I hesitate to apply the words “faith” and “belief” to Islam as it isn’t a religion as much as it is a political movement which demands absolute perpetual obedience to it against a backdrop of an excruciating range of penalties. (A bit like North Korea with camels, goats and sand!)

        • mike

          Do you trust Catholics to be with your children even though many Catholic priests are guilty of doing evil things to children?

          How about Maori? Quite a few of them commit home invasions. Do you trust them.

          It’s a slippery slope to start on.

          • Cadwallader

            It is a slippery slope but unfortunately we’ve all ended up at the crest of it.

          • mike

            Not all of us.

            I have no doubt that not all Catholics are pedos just like not all Muslims are terrorists.

            Edit. Punish and condemn the individual, I’m not a fan of group punishment or collective responsiblity.

          • Cadwallader

            Well, neither am I but all forms of tribalism cause us to have to undertake forensics on a collective basis. It is a process of identification rather than a penal exercise.

          • mike

            We do use generalizations when we talk about ethnic groups. Doesn’t make it right nor does it make them true.

          • Rocket

            2nd Q.
            A. No.

      • Albert Lane

        The glaring misconception with your scenario is that if a Christian community did behave like that, all other Christians in the world would speak up against it and oppose anything they say or do. They would be subject to sanctions, air travel would be forbidden, they would be treated like pariahs, and they would eventually disappear through one means or another. You’ve got to remember that Christians and Muslims are totally different in every conceivable way. They think differently and they act differently. Christians forgive and forget. Muslims don’t. Christians promote tolerance. Muslims don’t. Muslims are taught their religion before they can read. Their children are required to memorise the entire Koran. These are concepts totally alien to Christian society. The solutions that would sort out the problems in Christian society would have no place in muslim societies.

        • mike

          Your argument is self defeating in that you are in your very own argument judging Islam by using so called Christian values.

          Not all Christian promote tolerance or the principle of “turn the other cheek”… some are just downright nasty pieces of work. Just look at the KKK, or the sectarian violence carried out by Christian groups in Central Africa. Or the Anti Hindi violence carried out by the NLFT or NSCN Christian groups in India. How about the mass murders is Lebanon by the Maronite Christians? Have a look at the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Heck look at the IRA, religion and nationalistic identity overlap there. A bit more recently Anders Beivik in Norway. The Lords Resistance Army, yeah they’re really forgiving and nice.

          Or how about the murders of doctors, nurses and firebombing of Abortion Clinics in the USA by the Army of God…. heck there’s the Westborough Baptist Church.

          Not all Christians have the same beliefs as you… just like not all Muslims have the same beliefs as ISIS.

          • Albert Lane

            Mike, on the surface, you make a very strong case. However, the violence carried out by non-muslim groups around the world is carried out in regional areas of single countries – and they do not carry out terrorist attacks across international borders. For instance, I have never heard of the KKK operating outside the southern states of the US. And similarly with the other groups, they operated in individual countries. However, there is one big difference. Islamic terrorist groups threaten much of the world, including muslim countries where Sunni attack Shi’a, and vice versa. In fact, more muslims are murdered world-wide by islamic terrorists than westerners. There are very substantial numbers of muslim asylum seekers in most western countries, and they have a history of intolerance and violence in many of these countries. And by the way, I am sure that all of us abhor any violence from Christian groups, and if we experienced such violence, we would all speak up against it – which is another action lacking in so many muslim countries.

          • mike


            Read the tweets made by Muslims about the attack in France and how strongly the condemn it.

    • Cowgirl

      Stephen Harper, the Canadian PM said the other day that the Islamists had ‘declared war’ on the West. The media got its feathers ruffled by that, but nothing further has been said. Harper is pretty far right, but at least he seems to not be in denial. It wouldn’t surprise me if it wasn’t reported in NZ – since living in Canada I have been surprised by just how much from NZ gets reported here, when I don’t think NZ gets nearly as much from Canada.

  • Rex

    I also disagree with WO. I am 100 percent behind LePen. Sorry but Islam is the one religion that will never co-exist with others. It’s whole belief is world domination.

    • Citizen

      Actually Le Paen gave a speech the other night on TV after the first shootings at Charlie Hebdo. She blames radicals and extremist Muslims, she talked about French citizens who are moderate and not to blame. Francois Holland and the rest are so far now to the left, that even centrists are described as far right! It was refreshing and should have been the speech that Francois Holland gave…instead all we heard were platitudes.

      • Dave

        agree to a point, but the glaringly obvious, is the lack of the majority of Muslims coming out and yelling loudly and long. This is NOT the way Muslims behave, this is not the way of Islam. instead, there is a deafening silence, hardly a word of condemnation from Muslims, and not a word of condemnation from islam. Therein lies the entire problem, this is a movement, it is NOT a lone wolf!

    • Cadwallader

      I am still on leave at present and have had plenty of time to think about Islamos and how different their outlook appears to be to that of the majority of those in the West. There is one of their tactics which is bitingly familiar though. Think trades union!
      The unions make a demand; their demand is declined; they threaten retaliation; their demand is again declined; they strike (out.) The Islamos demand that a publication is closed-down; the demand is ignored; they strike. The common theme is collectivist pugnacity to achieve a desire. In other words, bullying those who are not compliant to their wishes.
      Is that a reasonable comparison or am I digging too deep?

  • Just a thought …

    Still waiting for wee Wussel to come out and say something…….. oh, no that’s right he is far to busy being outraged at John Key threatening the whole moral fibre of our society and homeland security by daring to delete his texts……….

    • TSD

      While Wussel won’t welease any words he had with kim.con when wequested.

      • Just a thought …

        That is the beauty of being on the left …….. the rules are for us other lesser mortals…..

  • rua kenana

    So “We must stand up to a violent fascist faction of Islam that will kill …” (Paganii)
    WO’s approval of Pagani’s comments implies a view this “violent fascist faction” can be identified in advance of their killings.
    My understanding is that all too frequently this is not just the case.
    It would be instructive to know how WO/Pagani thinks such identification can be done so we can all know what we should be standing up to.

    • Muffin

      I beleive that’s the job if security and intelligence services. You know the ones we pay taxes to undertake this sort if thing. Not really JP or wo’s job is it.

    • spanishbride

      I do not agree with Pagani. For a leftie she has balls but she still is bending over backwards to be nice. This is a war and I want to win. Immigration to our country of Muslims must stop. The Qu’ran and Sharia Law and Islam is extreme. Read it. No Islamic schools. They must integrate like other immigrants have or they must leave. No Islamic Sharia law running alongside our law ( we do not want to end up like the UK ) I know I now sound non PC and extreme but we cannot win with a policy of live and let live, we can only slowly but surely lose everything that we hold dear. We are fighting an extreme ideology, you cannot do that by being nice and not offending anyone.

      • JKV

        Totally agree SB. Here is a man who has studied and written extensively on Islam. He is pretty despairing of the fact that our so-called leaders will not face up to the problem in our midst. I felt exactly as he did with the events unfolding in France.

      • rua kenana

        I also agree with SB.
        The sole purpose of my earlier post was the problem of how to identify in advance the “violent fascist faction of Islam that will kill …”
        The security and intelligence services anywhere have limited to zero ability to identify this faction, and personally I don’t believe it’s possible.
        The Muslims themselves have the best abilities to identify this faction but they seemingly don’t want to do so. Until they do, and also show that they really are a religion of peace when the evidence suggests otherwise, then no further Muslim immigration into NZ is the obvious (only?) option.

      • Albert Lane

        If we had a binding referendum here, I believe your beliefs would be held by a huge majority. The problem in France has been caused by governments that have ignored the perils of granting residency to people from countries ruled by religious despots. How the French people will react to this most-recent atrocity, will be interesting to see. And if (heaven forbid) we ever experience a similar situation here in NZ, how will our people respond? You can only push people so far, and at some stage there will be a breaking point.

    • OneTrack

      Let’s start with people who fly to the ME to support and fight for muslim terrorist organisations, learn some new skills while they are at it and then come back home.

      How’s that for a start? Or would that be mwean?

  • LesleyNZ

    The problem is that the extremist faction of Islam is following the Quran exactly and faithfully. I do think many moderate Muslims will now be questioning their faith and what they really believe.

    • mommadog

      I heard this on the radio yesterday – not sure where it originally came from. “For every Radical Muslim cutting off someone’s head there is a moderate Muslim holding the feet”. I interpreted that to mean moderates supporting the radicals in some way and allowing the violence to continue. While many may be against the violence I don’t think they will be questioning their religion anymore than Catholics question their religion when they hear about another paedophile Priest.

      • Just a thought …

        And that is the nub of the answer and or problem….. The west alone cannot not solve this ( if it can indeed be solved ). It needs ( and must )
        also come from within Islam with the supposed non-radical muslims standing up and saying ” enough” . Until that happens from enough of them then the slaughter will continue ……

      • ShoreRight

        Maybe it was on Newstalk ZB yesterday…I heard a caller describe being Muslim as being on a continuum , which is similar to what you are saying.
        Having worked with a Muslim family here in NZ a few years back, I saw oppressed females who were nothing short of child bearing entities – the more babies who were sons the better ! Was very sad to watch.
        We need to wake up in NZ !

        • mike

          That pretty much describes exclusive brethren as well.

          • Sally

            And also the Amish society.

          • johcar

            …but they don’t go around chopping off people’s heads…

          • OneTrack

            But they print brochures describing the Green parties policies. Which means the left had to get rid of them.

          • mike

            No they don’t. But we accept their level of control over women.

            Just pointing out the level of discretion we have in exercising dislike of other religions.

          • Sunshine

            The difference is, that you can speak out and oppose the Bretheran control of women without fear of murderous reprisals.

          • Kiwi

            The women can leave these sects without the very real fear of ‘honour killing’ that is associated with Islam.
            Major difference.

      • Veritas

        The statement: “For every Radical Muslim cutting off someone’s head there is a moderate Muslim holding the feet“.
        This is a fair statement. Whilst Muslim tribe fights against Muslim tribe, you will go a long way to find either tribe siding with non-Muslims to fight against the evil and terrorism carried out by the other tribe. You will hear the odd whimper, but where is the real Islamic opposition to this terror. Since Islam brainwashes its people that it is absolute and ultimate and truth, it cannot side with the infidel – anything considered inferior (thereby evil or at least wrong) – as against Islam.

  • Pagani’s sentiments sum up the situation very well.
    In the US radical Christians, whilst not taking to murder so far, preach a philosophy of hatred for all who do not accord with their literal and narrow view of the bible. Some years ago I was in Washington at the same time as 600,000 gay rights people. They were having a great time, were friendly, peaceful and just wanted to put the gay agenda on the map. As they walked around the Mall a group of ‘Christians’ from a fundamentalist church had placards of hate and were screaming abuse. Their placards said things like “Rot in Hell you f**** perverts” “Come to our State and we’ll see you swinging from the trees.”. The language they used to denigrate the people they not only didn’t agree with but who they hated was appalling. They were bug-eyed with hatred, spitting and hurling abuse. Yet we do not condemn all Christians for the extreme views of fundamentalists; we do not condemn Christians who believe the bible view of creation. We know that many Christians accept the bible as an apocrypha, stories told round the camp fires to explain the then unexplained.
    So with Muslims. Many of who do live in peaceful co-existence and accept that the Koran for what it is and reject the eye for an eye doctrine and its misogynistic preachings.
    Josie Pagani is correct in that we are dealing with a dangerous, radicalised excuse for human beings who use their ‘religion’ as an excuse to outlet their psychopathies. During the last World War we wondered how ‘ordinary’ German people could run concentration camps and assist in the slaughter of 6 million Jews. We did not condemn all Germans. So it is with al quaeda and isis – they do not represent all Muslims. But they are an extreme branch of islam whose beliefs are taken to extreme.Like a rotting sore they must be scourged and then healing can begin.

    • northern

      Hear, hear, Grampus! I share your views precisely.

    • kloyd0306

      So, you believe that “Rot In Hell” placards are equivalent to a massacre of 12 plus people for publishing cartoons that poke satire at every religion?

      There is no moral equivalency here. On the contrary, there something fundamentally and seriously wrong with the religion of Islam that causes its followers and believers to commit these acts on, what is becoming, a regular basis. There is nothing sporadic about these acts. They are part of an ongoing effort to terrorize in the name of Islam and the Qu’ran.

      Peaceful religion – total BS………..

      To “explain” is to excuse. The problem lies completely in the hands of the Islamic faith and its primary teaching manual – the Qu’ran.

      This “manual” teaches that it is OK to lie about anything in order to promote its tenets and the biggest lie is the “peaceful” one.

      • mike

        Hate is hate. Morally it is the same. The difference lies with the act not the motive for the act.

        • kloyd0306

          OK – you choose……
          Would you rather be hated or killed?

          • mike

            Not the point. The point is they are both morally wrong.

          • Cadwallader

            Do you regard morality as heaven sent or is it something that grew in us in a type of Darwinian manner as our cognitive abilities developed. I personally endorse the latter.

          • mike

            If it were heaven sent than I as a non-believer would have no morals… but I do. And judging by the calls from some believers here about Islam I have more morals than some.

            It’s the age old question though isn’t it… nature or nurture. There is no evidence to suggest one over the other.

          • Cadwallader

            I am with you. I too am a nonbeliever (profoundly so) but I have studied phenomenology as a pastime on and off for more than 40 years. The history of the western church is in some obscure manner the DNA which we need to protect from Islamos.

          • mike

            Most of out western cultural identity is actually a remnant of the Greek and Roman civilisations.

            So maybe we owe more to Zeus and Jupiter than to the Christian God? :-)

          • kloyd0306

            While you’re deciding what is morally wrong, the terrorist has already pulled the trigger.

            To quote Gen Patton, I’d rather have the enemy in front of me than someone like you behind me.

          • mike

            Seeing as I spent 9 years in uniform serving my country with honor I think Patton would be on my side not yours.

          • kloyd0306

            Your service is to be commended. Your uniform, however, doesn’t mean your pride in your country is any greater than anyone else’s.

            You must be thanking your lucky stars that you weren’t confronted by an arms-carrying Muslim. You’d be pleading with him about morals while he would be pulling the trigger.

          • mike

            True it doesn’t make me more patriotic than anyone else.

            And why would I be talking to bad guys about morals? That wasn’t my job then nor is it now.

            I am not a sheep, I am one of the sheep dogs.

    • dgrogan

      We will condemn ANY creed, which is determined to slaughter those who do not agree with their dogma.

  • symgardiner

    She will never be allowed to stand for Labour after writing that. She should jump into the ACT or National camp… she is far more libertarian than most of the current Nats.

    • OneTrack

      Thank god Labour aren’t listening to her :-)

  • bristol

    Sorry to say, but so many commentators just don’t get it. All this talk of moderate Muslims, and different factions, is nothing but a mirage. All Muslims, repeat, ALL Muslims believe the Qur’an to be the literal, unchangeable, irrevocable word of God, as claimed by Mohammed to have been revealed to him over a twenty-three year period by the angel Gabrielle. Mohammed’s Islam, as outlined in his Qur’an, was an instrument of domination, no more, no less, a way to fool the gullible to wage war for Mohammed, kill and willingly accept death to advance Mohammed’s dreams and satisfy his ambitions. The continuing agenda of Islam is entirely imperialistic and political, but its modus operandi will always be religious. A wolf in sheep’s clothing no less. It is this disguise and duplicity that makes Islam unpredictable and dangerous, but its supremacist agenda remains the same – and will always stifle any opposition. Any attempt at reforming Islam would be considered apostasy, a crime usually punishable by the death penalty.
    Straight from the horse’s mouth – “The term ‘moderate Islam; is ugly and offensive. There is no moderate Islam. Islam is Islam.” Recep Erdogan – Current President of Turkey

    • Dead right, moderates are only moderates while they don’t have the numbers, I will start to change my mind when I see the moderates out on the street (in numbers) supporting those against radical islam.

      • Albert Lane

        So where would you place John Minto in this? A moderate? I don’t think so. He wouldn’t be marching against radical islam.

        • Wasn’t aware he was a muslim.

    • Albert Lane

      Did you hear Kerre Woodham on ZB yesterday morning? She had a phone call from a muslim with a heavy accent who told her that Islam forbids killing any person, but it is permissible to carry out jihad against any person who takes away your home or your land. He didn’t define jihad to her, but I presume that this word means to kill. and he was obviously aiming it at Israel. She allowed his ranting for quite a few minutes, and then thanked him and that was it. She didn’t even ask him one question. And there are a multitude of questions. For instance, does he support muslims who invade a sovereign country and murder and enslave the occupants, rape the women and chop people’s heads off if they’re either the wrong brand of islam or they won’t convert to islam? When is islam going to start opposing murder? Kerre. I’m ashamed of you. Were you taking a toilet break and not listening to this raver? Why did you even give him air-time?

      • bristol

        Albert, didn’t hear Kerre’s programme, it’s night time here, and the last call for prayer occurred a few hours ago. Hope my posts, or emails, are not being monitored, otherwise I’m in deep do do :)

        • Albert Lane

          Run for the hills. Or the sand dunes.

      • 1951

        I could only listen to part of Kerre’s program. Right at the start she couldn’t handle the subject simply because of her Leftist subconscious mindset was fighting what is blindingly obvious. I could imagine Leighton listening-in while lost amongst the grapes just wishing he could grab his headset and take over. She was simply out of her depth!! I did hear that man and yes he should have been challenged on so many angles.

  • Just quietly, I think you undermine a very good comment by then chucking the easy paedophile bit in. It turned me off. It will turn others off.

    God asked Abraham to kill is son Isaac as a show of faith.

    Let’s not compare dick sizes on who has the most sensible written scriptures.

    • Bob D

      God actually was making a point, He had no intention of allowing Abraham to sacrifice his son.

      The Canaanites practiced child sacrifice. God was teaching Abraham a lesson – He isn’t like those other gods (read up on Molech, Baal, etc.) God refers to these child sacrifice cults as abominations.

  • PhantomsDoc

    Have been thinking about this for a while now.

    Yes, the war has started. Yes, the West currently doesn’t have the balls to face it. Yes, this is a war where we don’t have defined armies to be attacked and conquered.

    This is the West’s new Vietnam, the Afghanistan that Russia had to walk away from.

    What options are there?
    We can’t fight them, there is no-one to fight. There is no standing army or country to overcome.
    We can’t convert or persuade them to crawl from the 5th to the 21st century. This is a backward ideology

    This is a fight for our way of life, the freedoms we enjoy, the security and safety we have is being ripped away from us religious extremists. We cannot combat it with the tools at our disposal and our current PC moral high ground.

    Can anyone come up with a viable option that doesn’t mean relocation or extermination?
    Either relocate all Muslims to the Middle East and let them fight it our amongst themselves or eliminate all known and suspected radicals.

    I suspect that whoever comes up with the solution will be battling Godwin’s Law.

    • Albert Lane

      We are being told that the radicalisation is coming not from the mosques, but from the internet. So if it’s coming from the internet, why don’t our IT brains devise some way of requiring all web-sites to register with an international organisation, and for those sites to be removed if there is any suggestion that they encourage people to commit hate crimes (or any crimes), and the proprietors of any removed sites to be prosecuted by an international court?

      • PhantomsDoc

        I know, we’ll also monitor, intercept and remove all the suspect e-mails in the world, the facebook and twitter posts, all the private chat channels, gaming sites, file sharing sites as well. Then we can start on the web sites, phone texts and phone calls. All will have to be removed before they get to the intended recipient.

        OK, we’ll probably have to start with the 100+ billion e-mails a day that are sent and work up from there? Sound feasible to you?

        • Albert Lane

          So what’s the solution? To ban some religions? To ban some religous books? To ban some religious sects? Removing web-sites may not be feasible, so what would you suggest should be done to combat extremism? Because if we don’t do anything at all, the outcomes may not be very pleasant, as we’ve seen in the past few days.

      • Goldfish

        Nothing needs to be done. This is what the security services (like the NSA, GCSB, ASIO, GCHQ, etc) do. Y’know, those services that the Greens want to shut down?

        • Albert Lane

          Don’t forget the old saying, “Nothing is done until nothing is done”.

    • mike

      When we finally find a feasible alternative to fossil fuel and we don’t need their oil it’ll stop. The west will leave the ME and not look back, the fanatics will go back to fighting each other.

      They won’t have the money to fight the west anymore, nor the “justification”.

      However there will always be another group that has an axe to grind which will spring up to replace the last.

      I can’t remember where I heard it but somebody once said that the only time mankind will unite together in true solidarity is when we encounter aliens… because we’ll all want to kill them together.

      • PhantomsDoc

        Someone also once said that, after the end of mankind, once all life had ceased on earth, there would still be two grains of sand fighting in the desert in the Middle East over the land they reside on.

    • 1951

      What has happened with this in Paris, the soldier in Britain and café in Market St., has awaken the public who have willingly allowed themselves to be lulled by the Left.* I think it fair to say that those of us who took the time to read Mark Stein’s ‘America Alone’ when it was released and similar publications since, have not been so surprised. You ask what options are there? That’s a biggie! As I see it, the People have to show, as seen in the streets of German cities last week, as seen with the grief in Market St., as seen in Paris directly following these murders, that they will Stand No More!! The people, all those what ever their up-bringing, have to stand together to make the change. Leaders like the Egyption President have to step up and denigrate the religious teachers who promote the barbaric way they interpret the Quran and charge/imprison those who do with sedition. As the President said “change the thinking”. The people of the Muslim faith now have to bring it up to modern times and live with-in the laws of the Nations they reside. They have to accept to make changes to modernize, cease the subjugation of women, reduce the family to equal that of others.
      We have at last, heard voices from the Muslims in our community this week and oh dear quite a few of their voices were quivering. I have no doubt that some will be in fear. I hope that fear will energize them to question and show their disapproval of the (still) belligerent ones also heard. It is up to them to ensure that no blood is spilt, after-all bullies and that is what extremists are, are just cowards underneath.
      * Left influence over the media, the educational institutions and so our language have not allowed for any debate re: immigration, multi-culturalism etc,etc. Shame on them.

  • Primrose

    There is a very interesting article in Rolling Stone about the way the US press are treating this.

  • jay

    Yes she’s cool alright. Half the left hate her for telling the truth about why Labour lost the election, but that didn’t shut her up despite being the victim of some really vile and hurtful name-calling. I really admire her courage, and she’s dead right in what she says.

    This has also exposed Robertson – what a turkey.

  • Michael_l_c

    It is so good to have someone of a generally different viewpoint, write a well reasoned piece.
    Poke me in the eye with a sharp stick & wash my mouth out even martin, martyn made some reasonable or interesting points, note I said some.

    We need a radio or tv programme for good debates & discussions.

  • Alright

    Many of the comments below are too profound for my small brain to cope with. I can only come up with two words in response: Bloody religion.