Whaleoil General Debate

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  • conwaycaptain

    Now Wussel can retire in 3 years time on his MPs pension and the money he has been able to save on his inflated salary as Co Leader of the Greens.
    Wonder if he will be able to get a REAL job or will ne now retreat into academia as a lecturer on Green Policies or some such non job. Still living off the public tit.

    • Chiefsfan73

      I’ll go a buck on option a. I suggest the odds on option B would be less than a dollar.

    • JAFA Gazza

      My money is on him getting a seat at VuW…and being involved on select committes investigating climate change, the death rate of Maui dolphins and how to stop endangerment of unicorns in the Wairarapa. All paid for by us.

  • steve and monique

    Morning all. Check out story( Waikato Times) about a couple of guys in white Nissan ute, with Animal control in on side, pretending to be Animal control officers. They have been working the Waikato over, and seem to be in the Thames area now. Need to get these mongrels off the road.

  • Korau

    Word of the day

    ablegate (noun) – degeneration or loss of function or vitality in an organism or in cells or tissues not due to any apparent injury

    source : http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/abiotrophy

    Etymology : From French ablégate, from Latin ablēgātus, perfect passive participle of ablēgō (“I send off or away; banish”), from ab (“from, away from”) + lēgō (“I dispatch, send on a c

  • Aucky

    The Herald has done quite a good job with two articles re Swney this morning. What is puzzling me though is how many millions of ratepayers’ dollars have been injected into Heart Of The City by Auckland City or its puppet organisation, ATEED, since 1994 and what monitoring process has there been over the use of those funds. Who has been authorising payment of Heart Of The City invoices and what checks put in place?

    There’s a lot more to come out in this little saga. Some major WOBH sunlight is needed.

    • Win

      Maybe related regarding Council use of funds, the NZH article on Auditor General investigation into the Auckland Councils involvement in the Westgate PPP.

      • Aucky

        I agree Win. Once again the Herald has done some good work on exposing this very iffy arrangement. What is happening with Auckland City’s spin team? They seem to have dropped the ball all of a sudden with the Herald. No Christmas largesse last year maybe?

        • Win

          Maybe spin team are still on vacation. But good news for ratepayers that Auditor General is investigating the Westgate PPP. Does beg the question though what other PPP skeletons might be lurking in Council closets?

  • Time For Accountability

    Will Russell Norman, with the communist background, jump ship at some point to head a new party. Somewhere between Greens and Labour carcasses.

    • conwaycaptain

      Now there is a thought??? Greens go more middle of the road to pick up votes and Wussel forms a new Alliance Party which is LEFT wing and splts votes off Labour.
      Then maybe the Greens can get into Govt in a coalition with the Nats. However they will have to get rid of numpties like Logie, Mather and a few others

    • pak

      Nah … too much like hard work.

  • sandalwood789

    Cool and overcast in Wellington this morning. Soooo nice after the roasting-hot days we’ve had down here.

    I really hope that the farmers who are suffering through droughts get some rain soon.

    • MaryLou

      Finally a bit of rain in Auckland too. Not much and it’s stopped now, but still grey so there is hope!

      • kehua

        9ml last night and still drizzling South Kaipara, keep it coming Big Guy.

    • Carl

      Really steady good rain last night in Queenstown.

  • Hard1

    Mana Party in the news, for all the wrong reasons.

    An investigation has exposed links between the sex industry and a charitable trust apparently set up to help vulnerable youth. Former Mana Party organiser Nicholas Kayne Nitro, 36, also known as Nikora, helped establish Te Poaka Tipua Charitable Trust. In 2012, Nitro was convicted of receiving commercial sexual services from a 16-year-old boy. The age limit is 18 under the Prostitution Reform Act.


    • Cowgirl

      How many sexual assault convictions/allegations is that for Mana now? Some really dodgy ones in that party for sure.

  • Murray Smith

    Sad story. How could you have a “servant” for 12 years and not know his last name ?

  • TSD

    In a Stuff article re Russel. “The finance spokesman is not concerned about leaving a hole in the party’s economic policy making.” Well, no, he wouldn’t be would he.

  • Intrigued

    An interesting question arising out of Mike Sabin’s resignation which now results in a by election for the Northland Electorate.

    As I understand it, the total seats in parliament for a political party depends on the party vote for that party. Such that if, as is the case with Labour, it wins a percentage of the party vote that determines it should have 32 seats in parliament, it wins 27 electorate seats and gets 5 list seats: then it would stand to reason that if Labour won a byelection gaining another electorate seat then it would have to drop a list seat!

    Mmm…guess that would mean that if Labour won the Northland Electorate byelection then the last on the list for Labour would be out of Parliament! Now wouldn’t that be a problem for Angry Andy Little the Leader of the Labour Party?!!

    I doubt Labour will be putting too much energy into trying to contest the Northland seat byelection if the above scenario is right.

    • Iera

      A by-election result can change the proportionality of Parliament that was determined at the preceding general election (for example, if a by-election is won by a candidate representing a different party from that of the member who vacated his or her seat).

      • Intrigued

        Thank you, I guess that answers the question along with Abjv’s post above. So in other words it wouldn’t mean a win in Northland for Labour results in Little losing his seat.

        • ex-JAFA

          I made a similar mistake when positing conjecture around various post-election possibilities back in September. As pointed out, parties’ proportion of the seats in the House is decided on election day, but is subject to change through byelections.

          Imagine, if you will, if Colin Craig won the upcoming Northland byelection. If the rules weren’t as they are, suddenly his party’s 4% in September would become an entitlement to five seats, at the cost of both Labour and National. Such enormous shuffling of the seating arrangements (and, more particularly, the effect on inter-party agreements!) during a term would be a nightmare.

  • sandalwood789

    Why is it that (despite mountains of proof showing that socialism doesn’t work) people still support left-wing parties?
    There seem to be a number of reasons.

    1 – The “my parents supported them so I will too” approach. This can also be called the “my parents believed in a flat Earth so I will too” approach.

    2 – The erroneous belief that “only lefties care about others”.

    3 – The “get something for free” belief that governments can endlessly dole out massive amounts of other people’s money (we can all see how well this has worked in Greece).

    4 – Pure naivety and the unwillingness to see the evidence that proves socialism to be rubbish.

    5 – The “anyone but National” crowd.
    This is the “support by emotion rather than logic” approach.

    • Isherman

      You forgot the responsibility clause, ie. social responsibility means other people are responsible for me, so I don’t have to be.

      • ex-JAFA

        That’s the general reason why the yoof support socialism. As well as the oft-cited “big heart, small brain” attitude, young people have been mollycoddled their whole lives and not had to worry about doing anything for themselves – and they see an opportunity to keep it that way in adulthood.

        • Another Middleagedwhiteguy

          A couple of quotes attributed to Churchill, all about that learning curve thingy, an how some learn and others don’t:
          “If you’re not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you’re not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”
          “However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.”

          Also, “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”

          But I don’t know how he would have dealt with the non-working class (generational & cultural beneficiaries) – perhaps he would have foreseen the situation and taken steps to avoid it.

    • Coffee Connoisseur

      Actually Socialism provided the infrastructure that much of this country was built on Hydro dams, roads, communications, state housing which are things that today help give us a relatively good standard of living to other countries around the world. But it had many problems and couldn’t provide the freedom that Capitalism promised. This and advances in technology have given us as individuals much more freedom in a country like New Zealand but it doesn’t work for everyone. and for some, especially on a global scale, it doesn’t even enable basic needs to be met.

      Capitalism has many problems. Consider that Capitalism cannot build a free motorway in Auckland for the last 10 or so years. Its good with individual freedom up to a point but then it fails when it comes to building the sorts of infrastructure as easily as Socialism did. Consider that society is made up of families (however dysfunctional ones family may be) yet even in a core family with a husband a wife and a child Capitalism inadvertently incentivizes them to spend less time together as a family unit rather than more as it is more beneficial in terms of getting ahead for both the husband and the wife to work. In the same vain it incentivizes them to put their child into the care of total strangers in its most impressionable years. There are numerous other problems with Capitalism So both and Socialism have their problems.
      If you want to talk logic then that’s great lets start talking about the system we should have in this day and age.

      Who the system should be for and what the aim of the system should be.
      With the level of technology available today their are better alternatives to both of them. Logically speaking of course…

      • BW_Lord

        I’d love to see the magic wand socialists have that can miraculously produce a “free” motorway. And it’s pretty ignorant to say that capitalism couldn’t provide infrastructure.

        You do realise we have a nationwide fiber network going in at the moment under a capitalist (partly) right-wing government.

        • Coffee Connoisseur

          I’m not saying it can’t be done It’s just takes longer to get to a point where you can do it if at all.

          The point of the original post was point out that both Socialism can Capitalism have many problems and to ask the questions.
          Who the system should be for?
          and what the aim of the system should be?

          These are the first questions that should be asked with any system.

      • MaryLou

        What a good post. We spend so much time thinking either/or, when maybe it’s time to start considering how we can amalgamate the best of both.

        Thank you CC – food for thought!

      • JAFA Gazza

        Does socialism provide you with the ability to be a “coffee connoiseur”? I think not.
        and as for technology….”..With the level of technology avalable today *their* are better alternatives….” Pfft. You obviously dont use a grammar checker available to get your sentence constructs right do you?

        Socialism is a platform to enable a two tier society…the elite and the masses. I think I can figure out which tier you fit into…

        • Coffee Connoisseur

          I wouldn’t advocate Socialism, It didn’t give us the freedom that we could get under Capitalism.
          “and as for technology….”..With the level of technology avalable today *their* are better alternatives….” Pfft. You obviously dont use a grammar checker available to get your sentence constructs right do you?”
          And this has what to do with the existence of better alternatives to Capitalism, Communism and Socialism?

      • Hard1

        The main reason Socialism can never work is that most people don’t like each other.

        • Mark

          And yet under Capitalism unless both parties get a deal they can benefit from they won’t make the deal,unlike the gun held to their head under socialism.

          • Another Middleagedwhiteguy

            Exactly. The core values of Capitalism incorporate freedom of choice, and equality of persons (not “egalitarianism”)
            The basic difference between Capitalism and Communism is that:
            Under Capitalism, wealth can buy political power (if wanted)
            Under Communism or Socialism, power DOES buy wealth. (ie. they both promote corruption)

          • Mark

            Capitalism does not promote corruption,the involvement of the State does that.If there was not privilege granted by the state there would be no corruption.
            If politicians did not have favors to sell there would be no buyers market.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            yes but in that vein Communism can also be considered a great system. It’s resulting implementation shows otherwise.
            The same is true for Capitalism. You can only judge the effectiveness of the system on a global scale through the results of its implementation.
            Unless you are advocating absolutely no state at all then there will always be the risk of corruption as with any system using a monetary system.

          • Mark

            Ah the old chestnut of poor implementation,Communism has a 100% failure rate,& its death toll is only exceeded by Islam.
            Maybe we could give Capitalism a try sometime?
            I am not advocating no state,just a severely limited one. If property rights are enshrined in law then yes there will be times when you have to pay for stuff you previously got “free”.
            Personally I’d rather pay for great roads than smokes for the indigent,I admit I’m in a minority.
            I would like to see a Republic in NZ with a written Constitution,the US one being a good start. I don’t believe it will happen.too many experienced troughers & most people really aren’t interested in being free,it’s hard work.
            I grew up in this amazing country too,& I stay here by choice & I consider it the best place in the world.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            That is great to hear and I am in complete agreement on needing a new, agreed and written constitution. That part should come right after people agree on
            who the system is for.
            and what its purpose should be.

          • Mark

            That is the easy part,it is for the individual,the smallest minority & it’s purpose is to protect the individual from the initiation of force.

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            Fair enough:

            I would have said that it is for everyone.

            (Acknowledging and agreeing with you that people are individuals). Individuals being human beings of course.

            “On the purpose that stems from the answer to who is the system for.
            “It’s purpose is to protect the individual from the initiation of force.”
            That’s perhaps a little too limited. for example using your stated purpose for the system, Kim Jong Il’s system can protect you from force provided you follow his laws. The same is true for the Taliban and Sharia. But if you were happy growing up in New Zealand the same as me then I doubt that’s the type of system you would want to see here.
            Start with what you as an individual want to be able to do or how you want to be.
            If you believe the system should be for the individual then the things that an individual needs and wants should arguably be what the objective of the system.
            Ignore for a moment how the system will work. This is just gathering requirements for a system for individuals at this point. Unless we know and understand the requirements then we can’t know how effective the system we have is or if there are better alternatives.
            If it turns out that the current system isn’t entirely fit for purpose and nothing else is suitable either we would need to move onto system design based on the requirements put forward. . .

          • Mark

            I see I have missread your corruption comment & thought it was directed at Capitalism & Communism,sorry. Mark

          • Another Middleagedwhiteguy

            No problem. Communism pretends that one basic human trait does not exist as an inherent quality even from before birth.
            In fact even animals have it, so it must be natural.
            And that is selfishness.
            So, as it doesn’t exist, the more-equal piggies can exercise it to their hearts’ content with no need to feel any remorse

          • Coffee Connoisseur

            and are therefore both seriously flawed systems as a result.
            The Question is what would we want our ideal system to be?
            Who should it be for?
            What should the objective of the system be?

      • MaryLou

        OK. Had another coffee, so now the heads working better.

        The problem is, you’re suggesting with the road building bit, that recently under capitalism it hasn’t been possible. But our system still isn’t purely capitalist – we have a large social spend as a percentage of our gdp, and more social services than most other countries. I daresay if we were prepared to drop some of those, or lower them, roading wouldn’t be such an issue. There was a time when the DPB for example, didn’t exist.

        • Mark

          Yes the problem with Capitalism is we haven’t really had it,what we have had is some ability to water down communism to become socialism.

    • Mikex

      You have raised an interesting subject and nicely put.
      I have also wondered why apparently intelligent people can be so stupid
      as to be Lefty in their thinking.
      I think I found the answer in a recent book by Moral Psychologist,
      Johnathan Haidt,” The Righteous Mind”. He has some very interesting concepts.
      I cannot do justice to them here but in essence.
      Our personal sense of what is moral comes in part from what we are born
      with ie. innate and then this is then further tuned by our early
      Hence nature and nurture, so this would help explain the following the parents thing.
      He theorises that there are five moral foundations,care,fairness,loyalty,authority and sanctity.
      It seems our Lefty mates DNA only gave them them essentially the first
      two. Us on the Right are more balanced and have elements of all five foundations.
      The Lefties even get that wrong, because to them fairness is equal outcomes not just equal opportunities.

      This then explains, at least to me, why they can be so keen on the caring bit and to hell with balancing this against the other realities of human nature and it’s consequences on society.

  • Abjv

    Nup, the proportional stuff only happens at General election time. One of the reasons National won’t want a by election in a marginal National seat. Any electorate seat changes from now simply transfer that vote from the loser to winner party. It is only list seats already allocated to a party that don’t change which party they belong to, and the incumbent can be swapped out, as happened with he who “we do not know who he is” from Hamner Springs.

  • Mags

    Listened to an 2011 interview of Colleen McCulloch by Kim Hill. What a no nonsense very intelligent woman she was. She was a neuro scienctist who became a writer. She had no time for the literary types and they had no time for her. They didn’t consider her writing any good and she of course made lotsa money. It’s a long interview but in the last 30 seconds she has some interesting story that EleanorCatton should note about being loyal to your country. http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2502978/colleen-mccullough-thorny-life
    Ed sp

    • Mac50

      To quote those last few minutes: “To make a lot of money is very crass, you know – or that is what critics and literati think – because they do not make a lot of money and they think they should” – followed by a hearty laugh. “It’s just green eyes, jealousy – not that it bothers me”, she says.
      She goes on to comment on a put down by an ambassador, and says, “She objects to Australia being put down, because she is a patriot!”

  • Sally

    Link to Eleanor Catton’s blog with her statement that was in part published in the Herald today.


  • Curly1952

    Only two weeks to the start of the rugby season. Super 15, ITM cup then the world cup. Big year. Can’t wait for it all to start.
    Yeah ok we have the cricket first but priorities – rugby first!

  • sandalwood789

    Another *great* charter school article here on Lindsay Mitchell’s blog –

    She is an absolute *treasure*.

  • Cowgirl

    Interesting new terror legislation this morning in Canada – Stephen Harper has given the CSIS the ability to disrupt terrorist communications via social media etc, amongst other powers. He is also giving them the ability to hold suspects longer, and making it illegal to promote terrorism. My main question is why it has taken any government so long to give their security agencies the ability to disrupt terrorist communications – these social media propaganda feeds and websites should have been shut down long ago IMO. My next question is does NZ have the same power? And if not, can we have it please?

    • Wallace Westland

      I’d be less interested in disrupting it in NZ than:
      1 Tracking it back to it’s source and letting the applicable military forces know where that is
      2 Tracking it to it’s receiver and letting the SIS know where that is.
      Bang Bang Bang! That’s the cure.

      • Cowgirl

        I agree, and I’m sure that is part of the equation. I do think there is a lot of value in stopping it getting to the general populace in the first place though. They can’t radicalise you if they can’t get to you.

  • Mark

    I note the story on the Train v’s pedestrian has evolved. I also seem to remember this being reported earlier as an older man? I may be completely wrong on this?
    So will it now be noted as the spokesman from Kiwirail said,there is nothing wrong with this crossing?

  • Aucky

    Yeeha! The online Herald has done it again. ‘Fire Destroys Wellington House’ screams the headline and right alongside is the pic of the Whangarei fire engine. Gee those boys cover a big slice of territory.

  • yoyoyo

    Not sure if Cam has bathed any sunlight here… but finally it looks like Fairfax have done some investigative journalism.


  • conwaycaptain

    Nauru was milked of its riches by the BPC and eventually received recompense and Nauru was the wealthiest place on earth by head of population.
    However within the space of 10-15 years it was all gone wasted by the Govt and things like a West End Musical etc. Of course the Phosphate ran out and they had nothing to rely on for income.
    Some 20 years ago there was an advert for a mooring master up there and the buoys off Nauru are the deepest moored buoys in the world many thousands of metres.
    I phoned the number in Melb and was answered by an Indian who told me what a glorious job it was etc and when I asked what it paid I was told $20k BUT TAX FREE. That was less than the av salary in NZ.
    The Nauruans used to import Labour from the Gilberts as it was below the locals to do the work and they imported the mechanics etc from China as Swires used to transport them down from there on Anshun and then bring the Gilbertese labour over.

  • Curly1952

    They get paid big money to play so like cricketers it is now nearly a 12 month a year job. I agree that they need down time to recover but at $125K for a super 15 player I want to watch them in action.
    I can multitask – I can watch the rugby and the cricket!!

  • Benoni

    I have an Idea that we are going to have the usual Merde quality rugby from the Blues. The cricket and the 9s and the breakers are all going to be a better sight. The phoenix could take out the A league if they can get Burns back after his socceroos stint.

  • Sharky75

    What is John Key’s succession plan, he is going to contest a 4th term, but seriously who would it be? – looking through list – my guess at the moment on face value / profile would be Bennett (I would have said Collins, but think some more time has to pass) – but not sure of her internal standing within national, is she in a majority faction?