Oh get stuffed

What is it with socialists and subsidies?

Some smug wanker wants us to emulate Norway and ban the sale of petrol and diesel vehicles in favour of totally gay electric cars.

Transport Minister Simon Bridges has rejected a call for the Government to set a deadline after which the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles would be banned.

Software entrepreneur and electric vehicle champion Sigurd Magnusson said New Zealand should follow Norway, which plans to stop sales of new petrol and diesel cars from 2025.

There was no reason New Zealand couldn’t do the same given the similarities between the countries’ motoring needs, he said. “I don’t think we have a significantly different fleet profile.”

Heavy subsidies ensured electric vehicles accounted for more than a fifth of all new cars sold in Norway last year.

Electric vehicles were likely to get a big boost on Friday when Tesla is scheduled to unveil its third-generation electric car, Magnusson said.

The Model 3 is expected to have a price tag of about US$35,000 (NZ$50,000) and a range of about 320 kilometres on a full charge.

Whoopy…so Norway has 20% of new cars sold because of subsidies…take away the subsidies and sales would crash…meaning people are buying the cars because of the subsidies and not because of anything else.

Any business model that is reliant on subsidies isn’t really a sound business model.

On top of that who wants a car that can only go 320 on a charge, and then sit around for 4 hours waiting to recharge it again.

In Auckland you’d barely go for two days without needed a recharge.

People who push electric cars are either incredibly rich or just like driving around in a cloud of smug.

Bridges is finalising details of a scheme to encourage the sale of electric vehicles.

But he indicated New Zealand would not follow Norway or others in contemplating a ban on petrol and diesel cars.

“The Government isn’t considering this,” he said.

Magnusson said Bridges’ position was consistent with the Government’s “wider climate change narrative” which also included choosing not to include agriculture in emissions trading.

But he hoped that was down to the fact the Government had yet to recognise that a ban on the sale of petrol and vehicles would be “achievable and practical” as part of a collective effort that also involved the private sector.

Magnusson co-founded 60-person Wellington software firm SilverStripe and owns a Nissan Leaf electric vehicle. He is helping organise a rally of electric vehicles that will travel from Cape Reinga to Bluff next month.

Shit, I’ll do that rally in my diesel Isuzu DMax and I bet I get there days ahead of all the smug wankers in their electric cars and their limited range. That is 2083km. At best his Nissan Leaf can travel 135km on a single charge…and then he will need 4 hours to recharge it. That is at least 15 charges, or 60 hours, or 2.5 days of sitting on your arse watching a battery charge. In two and half days in my D-Max I’d have driven the whole distance. I reckon it will take these smug wankers at least 12 days to do the same thing. What a joke. This won’t be a rally, it will be a race of snails and tortoises. In that time I could drive all the way there and back home again and still have a few days up my sleeve for sightseeing.

 

– Fairfax

 

 


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  • STAG

    You make it all the way down here, I’ll provide the oysters.

  • Usaywot

    All this talk about electric cars never mentions the fact that the electricity needed to power them needs to be generated. They make it sound like electricity is free and comes from thin air. So where is all that extra power meant to come from? I’ve got an idea – let’s build some coal powered power stations and then we could reopen some of our mines and give work to the coasters. Imagine the apoplexy!

    • Carl

      Imagine Nuclear power stations.

      • Andy

        The electricity it provides is really cheap.

    • Uncle Bully

      Yes, just as has recently happened in the Netherlands.

      “But behind the green growth is a filthy secret: In a nation famous for its windmills, electricity is coming from a far dirtier source. Three new coal-fired power plants, including two here on the Rotterdam harbor, are supplying much of the power to fuel the Netherlands’ electric-car boom.”

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/electric-cars-and-the-coal-that-runs-them/2015/11/23/74869240-734b-11e5-ba14-318f8e87a2fc_story.html

      • biscuit barrel

        But wait;
        “Dutch lawmakers voted in favour Thursday of phasing out coal power plants in the Netherlands, appealing to other countries to do the same, days ahead of a crunch UN climate summit.”
        So they have opened two new plants but have voted to ban them as well.
        Someone should have told them about the light switch on the wall. If you dont turn it on then the power stations wont need to be on either.

        • biscuit barrel

          ‘In 2015, in Eemshaven, Groningen RWE [THE GENERATING COMPANY] put a new ultramodern power plant into operation, with a capacity of 1,560 megawatts. This new power plant, comprising of units A and B, will play an important role in the energy supply for the Netherlands in future years, because the provision of energy has to remain reliable and affordable. For that reason, ten years ago the Dutch government designated the Maasvlakte and the area around the Eemshaven plant as sites for new power plants” http://www.rwe.com/

          Here was I thinking that coal power stations are out and gas power stations are in, because of their much lower CO2.
          Those crafty Dutch must be on to something building a monster station twice the capacity of our Huntly station.

    • Ruahine

      Just need one decent Nuclear Station. I reckon a good place would just across the harbour in Wellington at Eastbourne. Then everyone would know where the power was coming from for their wonderful electric cars crammed with all those Rare Earths from polluted China.

      • Monty

        I have no issue with nuclear power at all but NZ is just too small. The nuclear power plants are massive and generate a lot of power. They also create a very constant stream of power. More that all NZ could use

        • Gollum

          Nuclear plants are scalable and need not be massive. Witness the units in nuclear powered ships and submarines.

          • Brian Dingwall

            Agree, I repeat here, I still want a nuclear powered car, its perfectly feasible….and I’ll promise to pronounce it properly unlike a prominent green leader we know and…..

        • Gollum

          Nuclear can be small as in nuclear powered vessels.

          • Southlander

            Microscale thorium one day perhaps but its a long way off

    • OneTrack

      The Greenies will be proposing that we raise Lake Manapouri in order to have enough electricity to charge their electric cars. Oh. Wait.

      • biscuit barrel

        The bluff smelter will close when Bill English is no longer around to get its subsidies through cabinet.- Both cant be far away yet?
        Yet this is the same guy who says no to assisting dairying?

    • Jax

      Well Tesla has an answer to that – its powerwall product – which is a in house battery connected to solar panels. The idea being you use this to charge your car up – so apart from the capital cost it is on an ongoing basis no cost. Like it or not it is a solution – the powerwall also can be wired into the mains to sell back any excess or use the main supply if there is shortfall. Its a clever solution.

      • Brian Dingwall

        The 10kWh version has been quietly dropped. Lead batteries are cheaper and withstand 1000 cycles as opposed to 500 cycles.
        http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/03/tesla-discontinuing-10kw-powerwall/

        • Southlander

          but the 7.5kw version can be cycled 5,000 times :)

          • Brian Dingwall

            Charges and discharges on a daily basis, will keep a house powered or part powered, can it fully charge a car or two as well each day? But 5000 cycles is impressive…

          • Southlander

            I think the idea is you have all 4 ( mains/ solar/ battery/ car)
            The batteries can be stacked so they are scalable and should get cheaper as musk is making more batteries than the entire worlds production put together.
            The car can charge the house battery,
            the (solar)house can charge the car battery. ( no, not entirely)
            The grid can charge the car and the grid can charge the house battery.
            The car knows how much power it needs for the following day ( because your phone has your schedule) and the car and battery know the buy-back rates from the grid.So between them all they work out the best place to put the power.

    • Southlander

      So thats about $5.00 worth of power at 27c/kw/h.
      Its still much much cheaper than petrol and zero emmisions

  • Mike

    How are they planning to charge there cars whilst they’re out in the sticks?

    • Kiwiracer

      I bet the motel owner in Taihape will be pleased to have all the electric cars charging overnight on his account, might need to be a surcharge. . . . . .

      • It is 835 kms from Cape Reinga, so will be a few days before the first electric car makes it there.

        I could make Taihape my first fuel stop.

        • SlightlyStrange

          12 seater van, loaded with adults and a long weekend tramping gear out of Wellington – first petrol stop was usually Waiouru, although when the Z there temporarily closed down, it became Taihape, and tended to stay there, the food at the BP is better.
          If we take our personal car, we can get Wellington – Ruapehu – Taihape at a push, if we don’t do any running around to places like Tokaanu.

    • Southlander

      you can use any power supply.

      • Mike

        How much does cost to fully charge an electric car?

        • Southlander

          The model 3 would take about $7.00 worth of electricity at 27c/kwh

  • Uncle Bully

    “People who push electric cars are either incredibly rich or just like driving around in a cloud of smug.”

    Or, they’ve got a vested financial interest in promoting the things.

    • HR

      I might turn up in my old American V8 to accompany them. The raw exhaust fumes might help dispel the cloud of smug

  • Diehard

    I’ll bring a diesel ute and tow a 7m boat. We can stop off and have several days fishing and still beat them.

    Sigurds idea is that of a total city boy. I couldn’t even get to work and back in a Nissan Leaf does he suggest I quit and go on the dole just so I can drive an electric car. Different planet.

  • duve

    Electric cars will never make it as replacements for petrol/diesel vehicles. But we have to keep trying to eliminate our need for oil, not from an environmental viewpoint, but as a means of totally stuffing the economy of Saudi Arabia. When that country goes belly up, terrorism issues will recede for a long time.

  • LabTested

    A range of 320km – Good luck with that in Norway. I was there last year on the motorbike and looking for the next petrol station was a constant problem. A couple of times we came so close to going dry.

    Also not to mention their tunnels. We went through one that was 10km long. Apparently they have a monster at 24km long. It just needs one car to run out of juice in the middle of that.

    PS : – photo is of the Hardanger Bridge – the longest in Norway. You enter a tunnel. 5 km later (still in the tunnel) there is a round about with tunnels going off in different directions. – you pop out over this bridge, then back in a tunnel the other side. Not a charging station is sight

    • biscuit barrel

      Norway has heaps of hydro power. Have petrol cars never run out on the Harbour Bridge ?

  • Second time around

    Unless the charging stations are much closer together than the range of the vehicles for the whole extent of the rally, the cars are just going to get further and further apart. It may only take 20 minutes to do a partial charge, but first you have to find a charger that isn’t occupied.

  • idbkiwi

    There is a small upside to the limited range problems faced by users of electric cars…

    “An Oslo man who stole an electric car was caught by police when the vehicle’s battery ran out of juice in the early hours of Friday.”

    “The driver, described as a man in his 30s, was arrested. It’s the first stolen electric vehicle I’ve seen,” Hausvik chuckled.

    http://www.thelocal.no/20160401/norway-man-steals-electric-car-gets-caught-when-battery-dies

  • oldmanNZ

    I have a electric drill, circular saw, and a blower, but I have a petrol chainsaw, weed whacker (an a electric one).

    there are some use for electric vehicals, like golf carts, fork hoist, where fumes may cause an issue.

    electric may work if you just need a small runaround in town. compact, can even park in your living room as there is no fumes, noise.

    However, there is no need to ban the fuel one as they still have the use for the heavy haulage.

    Banning things is a lefty tool for control

    • biscuit barrel

      So who has just banned zero hour contracts, was it those leftys?

      • Doug

        Well they were the ones crying about it to the media to instigate a ban

        • biscuit barrel

          And passed in parliament unanimously. Thats quite an achievement for some cry babies.
          labour and greens I can understand voting for it

          • Doug

            The parties on the right of the spectrum judged the political capital lost by keeping zero hour contacts legal more than the political capital lost by banning them.

          • Richard McGrath

            Not unanimous – ACT was the only sane voice opposing it

      • johnandali

        On a recent visit to the UK, I discovered that they also have zero hours contracts. It wouldn’t surprise me to find that every Western country has them. So if that’s true, why didn’t our trusty? McCully raise the matter in the Security Council? Or is he simply fixated on Palestinian issues? The important issues…….

  • Big fella

    Norway and all of its oil is what allows them to do what they do and be what they are. Coincident banning petrol and diesel vehicles will they do the decent thing and halt all oil and gas exports? Hmmm I think not. Hypocrites.

  • Nesher

    I guess, hydrogen is the future for powering cars. Below is a new publication about achieving a very high efficiency in water-splitting: http://phys.org/news/2016-02-scientists-efficiency-water-splitting-half-reaction.html

    • Richard McGrath

      Perhaps have the water splitting powered by hydro electricity…

  • Isherman

    Norway should hope fiction doesn’t become reality. I have recently watched a Netflix series called Occupied, which follows the fallout from Norway announcing it is shutting down all its oil production and going completely electric. This results in Russia, backed by the EU, engaging in a soft invasion of Norway as a result of the chaos it causes through Europe. It’s only fiction of course, but the way it plays out in the series is almost entirely believable.

    • biscuit barrel

      Norway is only a tiny exporter of oil , only 3% of world production. It may be ok for a telemovie but that doesnt make it believable.
      For norwegian voters oil makes them rich as the state controls oil production and even explores in other countries. No chance of them ‘shutting down production’
      So a double fail

  • Brian Anderson

    The so-called range of electric cars is more of a myth than the figures quoted for fuel consumption on petrol vehicles. Nissan Leaf 135km on a fully charged new battery on flat roads with just an expert driver. Add a few hills, and three adult passengers and it doesn’t do so well. Use A/C or heating and you’re down to a fraction of that distance. As for towing a boat – just don’t think about it! Purely a town runabout.

    • Southlander

      which is what most vehicles are.(Town runabouts)
      NZ already has a large number of charging stations.
      The tesla model 3 can do 350K’s in between charges
      A/C and heating make virtually no difference, as do lights, such is the capacity of the battery

      • Brian Anderson

        The (UK) Leaf figures are about 135 miles/charge – but only when using EPA LA4 dynamometer testing (not actual driving).
        Consumer figures in one collected series give actual figures of 27 – 40 miles/charge. Using the heater reduces the range by about 15% not a trivial difference, while A/C (California figures) drop it by 10%.
        Who knows what the new Tesla will prove? Once again, the figures quoted are only dynamometer ones.

        • Southlander

          The model S, does 250 miles / charge, thats been tested by tens of thousands of real owner /drivers. the model 3 has less power but the same battery. The economy figures are not from a dyno run , they are from real life ( where did you get that from ??)
          The leaf in NZ does about 130km/charge, in the hands of real drivers.
          Not sure what the ” new” leaf does but I doubt its 130 miles

      • Whitey

        Most cars are town runabouts most of the time, but there are always occasions when the car’s owner wants to go out of town. Suppose you live in Christchurch and you want to go to Wanaka. That’s 429 km. The range a car needs to have is governed by the maximum distance the owner might want to travel, not the average distance they travel most days.

        • NeverMindTheBoll

          Rent a car for the trip.

        • Southlander

          There are already fast chargers in Wanaka, Twizel, Fairlie , Geraldine Waimate, timaru , Ashburton and Otematata, so no problem there.

  • Grizz30

    When it comes to environmental concerns Norway is the ultimate hypocrite. All their money is from dirty sources via their vast oil and gas industry. They then expect to sell it to everyone else and with the profits show the world how environmentally precious they are.

  • Monty

    There is another subsidy that has not been discussed. As the owner of two cars we buy a bit of petrol. I don’t mind that a fair portion of that petrol is tax which is pumped back into the roaring network. So I buy a ful tank of petrol which is say $120. Some is GST, but about $50 is some form of petrol tax. So why should I pay for some bugger to drive around on roads I have paid for. I think the government needs to bring in a road user charge for electric vehicles.

    • Jax

      Its a fair point, at the moment however there are only like 1000 electric vehicles of all types registered in NZ – probably cost more to implement it than what it would pay – however if that number rises then they will probably have to as that money has to come from somewhere. In the meantime thats a subsidy in itself.

    • Usaywot

      If you have diesel you have to pay road user charges separately so why not for electric vehicles ?

      • Southlander

        carbon tax ?

  • Jax

    The leaf is not a great example – its the cheapest and lowest spec out there – thats like comparing the Nissan March petrol version to your Isusu ute – also not a comparison.

    The new model 3 that comes out – if you use the supercharger charges in 30mins to 50% – range of 340km – or if not just overnight where my car sits on the drive for 8 hours anyway. Im not suggesting its not without its issues but for day to day driving I do, a model 3 would work very well – I could have another car for the boat etc (which I do already) if you have some weird driving habits probably not for you – I support choice – so would never think normal cars should be banned but do think for the vast majority of people sitting in 2 hours of non moving traffic a day and going 100km at the most around town then sitting in a garage every night these vehicles could work well and in the model3’s not that expensive to buy and much cheaper to own.

  • Whitey

    Despite being so heavily subsidized and despite aggressive taxes on real cars, electric cars still make up only 2 or 3 percent of Norwegian vehicles. Fact is, even with heavy subsidies electric cars are still not a viable choice for the vast majority of Norwegians and they aren’t any more viable here.

    • Southlander

      33.1% of “new” vehicle sales are electric. When you think of the carbon credits and emissions it puts them miles ahead

      • Whitey

        It’ll be interesting to see whether that trend continues or whether sales fall off over time. Certainly there is a niche for electric cars in the Norwegian market, but we’ll have to wait and see how large that niche is.

        • Southlander

          Tesla did something like 250,000 presales for the model 3 in 2 days. They won’t even see the car for 2 years….I’d say there is a fair bit.
          Tesla provides free charging in the USA, thats a big bonus, but they also own solar city.
          Be nice if they did the same here

          • Southlander

            232,000 deposits : which is 8.1 Billion US in sales.
            Wish I had a business like that!

          • Whitey

            Yeah, I’m impressed with Tesla so far, and I think if anyone can make the electric car viable they will. I’m cautious about drawing implications from the Model 3 presales though. At this stage the numbers are telling us there’s a market there, but not how big it is or how quickly it will become saturated. And while 8.1 billion is a whole lot of money, keep in mind that in 2014 the US auto industry gross output overall was 102.13 billion. http://www.statista.com/statistics/261086/us-automobile-manufacturing-gross-output/

      • The only way an electric car could beat me to Bluff would be if it towed me.

        • Southlander

          I don’t know how familiar you are with fast charging, but there are several of these outlets now, so if we take the model 3, range 340km, 40 mins per full charge, in theory you would need to stop almost as often to fill up your isuzu and thats still going to take you 8 minutes.
          I assume you also have to be awake to drive your isuzu, the model 3 has full autonomous autopilot.
          But the big thing is , it makes zero emissions.
          Thats the whole point

          • RD

            Except for the electricity generation needed to recharge it. We are fortunate in NZ to have mostly renewable sources of power – hydro, geothermal, wind – but not all.
            Not true for most of the rest of the world, who rely on coal or natural gas, making their electric cars anything but zero emission.

          • Southlander

            50,000 people per year die in the us due to emissions from cars, their power stations ( even those that do burn coal) are not in the cbd or in peoples neighbourhoods.

        • Brian Dingwall

          And not then if you get out and walk

  • mixedblood

    Ah. So we should be like Norway. Close our borders and deport Muslim refugees. All or none. No half measures

  • Southlander

    if 0-100 in 2.7 seconds with zero emissions is totally gay, so be it, I’m there

    • Damon Mudgway

      Awesome. Tesla’s are pretty cool. But I like choice, as do most motorists. The whole electric car argument is carbon neutral nonsense. Forget the emissions hoopla and celebrate the economy and power electric cars offer. I myself like a car with a nice engine and exhaust note. Petrol forever for me.

      Still, the Tesla 3 sure makes a better argument than a Nissan Leaf.

      • Southlander

        What do yu mean forget the emissions hoopla ?
        It’s not just your own grand kids you are choking to death.
        Carbon emissions cause cancer and many other illnesses, it does not make sense to 5hit in your own nest,

  • Superman

    Electric cars are a no-hoper until you can go 800km on a charge and recharge the battery in 2 minutes.

    • SlightlyStrange

      I’d be ok with 10 minutes – it takes about that long to do a petrol pump and pay anyway.

      • Superman

        10 minutes is also OK but is still way too short a time to charge a cars battery.

  • mixedblood

    My twin cab Colorado LTZ ute (which has a DMax motor like Cam’s Isuzu) will travel 970+km per tank full. Even at 3 fills between Bluff and Cape Reinga, at 8mins per fill, this only equates to one supercharge time for your electric car. Also, my ute only cost NZ $40k new which is $10k less than your electric car.

    Deisel ute are still more economical. I have ignored RUC costs as these or equivalent should apply to electric cars for equatable comparison purposes.

    • SlightlyStrange

      Depending on loading, we can get 700+km per tank in our 2.0L petrol VW Golf. While I would consider a hybrid if they weren’t so expensive new, and so risky (in terms of time left to battery failure) second hand, I certainly wouldn’t buy a purely electric car.
      In bad years, we already have electricity crisis situations – where is the generation going to come from to power these cars?

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