Then comes the third stage, the issue of beating

As part of our general attempts to look into Islam in a way that it can be accepted and integrated into New Zealand life, I offer the following for further study.

As you can see, if we, as a country, allow people who hold these kinds of values to come to live here, how do we expect there to be a peaceful integration?

Our politicians must be made aware that unrestrained and unfiltered immigration of Muslims who share these values should not be allowed; they should not be able to reside in our country.

 

– Pete

 


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  • Clutch Cargo

    Nah….time to start a whole series of “how to discipline your muslim”. Dontcha just want to punch those smug pricks.

  • Wasapilot

    There is a correct muslim way to beat your wife, glad we have cleared that up. He said “some women wish to live a life of equality with their husband, unfortunately”.

    It is incerdible in this day and age that this behaviour is seen as the norm for these filth, mohamad and allah were idiots.

  • Chris Bell

    Allah be praised – no real God would ever endorse such a thing – fabricate your divine being till your hearts content but you are only fooling yourself

  • rexabus

    This Stuff comes with the Islam package. It might be in the small print but sorry, it is there. Unfortunately most of the muslim men who believe in disciplining their wives in this manner probably won’t be declaring their wife-beating at the border either

  • Come on Cameron, your better than this. You think the average Muslim man beats his wife in New Zealand?? Get real.

    • RightofSingapore

      Thats not what was said at all-we’re saying there are plenty of Muslims who do believe in those twisted ideas and we need to find a way to stop them coming in.

      • Mick Ie

        … “There are plenty of Muslims who do believe in those twisted ideas and we need to find way to stop them”. Period.

    • Duchess of Pork

      Perhaps not the “average” but Shakti does have a steady stream of women and children seeking their services and accommodation.

    • Wheninrome

      None of us are privilege to what goes on behind the closed doors of someone’s house. If the wife is not empowered to speak out there is even less ability to know what goes on.
      The cases of enslavement for 20 or so years that have come to light in recent times amaze everyone especially the neighbours who never ever knew. So who knows what goes on. But if Muslims are being told how to discipline their wives there must be a fertile ground of Muslim men who wish to know how.

    • PersonOfColor:WHITE

      Muslim wives know their place. No need.

      • PersonOfColor:WHITE

        The article is about the teachings of Islam…..we never know who is a ‘good’ Muslim and who just avoids being an apostate.

    • Orca

      Perhaps you can provide us with the equivalent guide for the average (non-muslim) kiwi on how to beat your wives, and then we can compare and contrast them.

  • RightofSingapore

    How do you screen for something like that though? We know sme Muslims think its ok to lie if it serves their purposes of spreading Islam.

  • Gaynor

    I wonder why Muslim men are so scared of women that they have to use violence and threats to control her. Real men are proud of their women.

    • PersonOfColor:WHITE

      Violence is the norm. Period. For everyone.

  • T Mardell

    The problem here is not the “beating”, but that subtle but emphatic paradigm that the husband is always right, is the master of his wife. Nothing about human rights, equality, or the fact that the wife could have the right to discipline her husband, “forsaking him in bed” etc.

  • spanishbride

    While he was a ‘moderate’ in the sense that he wanted the beating to be largely symbolic ie use a twig or a handkerchief he made it very clear that a wife’s desire for equality was a serious problem. Equality is a core value in our culture and society.

    • Tiger

      Ah, but what was the intent? In law intent is paramount, no? Or not “their laws”?

  • Tom

    I have to say when my wife was young she ended in a spot of bother. She was 22 young and long blond hair riding a motorbike through North Africa. A local felt her bum, she being a proponent of both Judo and contact Karate laid him out. The police were not very happy but the embassy did its job although she left behind her rickety old bike!

  • Mikex

    It all makes a lot of sense if you are a Muslim. Now our old Mohammud was told by Allah that it is recommended that men have multiple wives, infact up to four. However randy Mohammud was told as he is so special, he heard Allah say but you can have as many as you like.So he did as best he could and got up to about an even dozen wives.
    Uh oh! can you imagine the chaos with thirteen folk in the house all with equal rights. Oh what to do ! Nuff said. Allah came up with a set of new directives.

  • Rick H

    Allah be praised
    Cook me some eggs, woman!!!

  • Abdullah

    Good evening everyone. The video is explaining a verse from the Quran An-Nisa (4:34). The meaning of ‘beating’ or ‘striking’ has been explained by Prophet Muhammad as “a light tap that leaves no mark”. It is indeed a symbolic use between husband and wife. In fact it can happen both ways.

    I have given SB a brochure on Women’s Rights in ISLAM. To those interested – you can read from here – https://goo.gl/dPB6cT

    Islam sees women as complementary – ie one will need the other to function. It is for this reason why men has to respect, honor and cherish women and vice versa.

    Again, I kindly invite SB and Pete to get in touch with us. Anyone here interested and has any question about Islam, please do get in touch with me. [email protected]

    • sandalwood789

      Welcome Abdullah – it’s good of you to come here.

      I’m glad that you mentioned women’s rights in Islam. There are a number of verses in the Islamic texts that seem to be rather anti-women. For example –

      Quran (4:11) – (Inheritance) “The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females” (see also verse 4:176).

      Bukhari (6:301) – “[Muhammad] said, ‘Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?’ They replied in the affirmative. He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'”

      Bukhari – Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29:
      “Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:
      The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.”

      Muslim (4:1039) – “A’isha said [to Muhammad]: ‘You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses'” These are the words of Muhammad’s favorite wife, complaining of the role assigned to women under Islam.

      Given the above verses, I’m sure you will understand my feeling that Islam has some explaining to do if it claims to uphold women’s rights.

      Regards –
      – Sandalwood

      • Abdullah

        Hi Sandalwood789 – those are beautiful questions. It looks like you have an open mind and actually looking for answers. I pray to god that he will guide myself and you to the truth.

        First of all – all 4 sections that you have quoted, they are not quoted in full (some are taken out of context). It sounds bizarre when you took a sentence out of a whole paragraph like that. For the start, you might want to look at the whole verse of the Quran and the tradition of the prophet (Hadith in Bukhari and Muslim).

        1. Quran 4:11 – Have a look at the whole verse here – http://quran.com/
        As I have mentioned before, women and men are seen to complement each other. Let me share this with you – in Islam, all money that belongs to men, also belongs to the wife. The wife in fact can ask all the money from the husband, and we should not question them. If a women decides to work, all of her money is for her to keep. The husband is not allowed to take or ask the money for whatever reasons. If a wife does not want to cook, a husband has no right whatsoever to tell her to cook! In the case of inheritance – on the surface, it is ‘not equal’ but if you were to understand the concept of complimentary, you will see that women have far more rights upon the son and other family members than men. They have prescribed duty to look after their mother/sisters/daughters.

        2. Bukhari 6:301- Please have a look at the full tradition: http://sunnah.com/

        3. Bukhari – Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29 – Please have a look at the full tradition: http://sunnah.com/bukhari/2/22

        4. Muslim (4:1039) – I chuckled at this one. It was taken totally out of context and any men like me who cherish and love their mother and wife will be in rage and leave Islam on-the-spot if this is correct. Please have a look at the whole tradition.
        http://sunnah.com/muslim/4/305
        http://sunnah.com/muslim/4/306

        Islam does not have to answer or explain Women Rights. The answers are out there – why are there many women reverting to Islam than men?

        I have share this before but I will put it here again for you:-
        https://youtu.be/E9rB6LWt7eo
        https://youtu.be/22UTEV2wCKc

        Please email me if you would like to learn more. Have a good night!

    • jaundiced

      Hearing that your god has issued instructions for men on ow to beat their wives, even symbolically, is frightening. Any claim about Islam respecting, honouring and cherishing women is clearly nonsense.

      Men do not own women. Islamic values and western culture will never co-exist.
      Having said that, dialogue is good. Can you comment on claims that Mohammed was a pedophile?

      • Abdullah

        Hi jaundiced! Thank you, that is an excellent question. My answer to you is very simple. If you are like me, educated in this beautiful country, went to university and further, you would have to read lots of books. Some of the books, journals, even so called studies in the peer review journal can give conflicting conclusions out of the same subject. It is therefore up to us to assess the studies by assessing their study method, results, FACTS and formulate our own judgement.

        Logically, if your claim is true, with regards to how Islam deals with women and what you have heard about Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, the religion should have dwindled over time. Despite all the negativity in the media – Islam flourishes.

        My suggestion to you – if you are seeking for an honest answer, keep an open mind and read from both sources. Read what Muslim reads and also those written by anti-Islam. Formulate your opinion based on the two. It is much better to go to the source rather than just hearing others’ opinion. :-)

        You do have my email there – please get in touch if you wish. Have a good night!

        • jaundiced

          You didn’t answer my question.

          So here is another. What is the penalty for apostasy?

    • Duchess of Pork

      Greetings Abdullah and thank you for your willingness to engage. I hope the promised Q+A page is implemented shortly as it should promote, in a more appropriate forum, robust discussion around issues such as those discussed below. I have a question and an observation before this thread closes. Can you provide please the source reference whereby a wife can beat or strike her husband as I did not realise it was a reciprocal gesture. And an explanation as to how the first sentence from An-Nisa 4:34 (the one beginning “Men are in charge of women…”) relates to a complementary rather than a hierarchical relationship would be appreciated.

      • Abdullah

        Hi Duchess of Pork – thank you for your reply. As a Muslim – we have two sources for guidance. Quran (http://quran.com/) and the tradition of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him (http://sunnah.com/). In order to understand the Quran – you will have to understand how the prophet has explained to us, including his actions on a daily basis. This is exactly how 1.8 billions muslim understand Islam. I highly encourage you to download the app below and read the section on Women in Islam. It is short and concise and better than what I can explain here. It also has sections that explains the Quranic verses (Quran exegesis).

        Android – https://goo.gl/ZRP4SG
        iOS – https://appsto.re/gb/669Aab.i

        I would like to suggest one thing – if you are at the computer, please read the ‘women’ chapter in the Quran (http://quran.com/4). You can click the play button at the top to hear how the Quran is read in Arabic.

        I believe Pete and SB have cancelled the plan to have follow up posts after the recent editorial meeting (unless if I miss some other posts). You are most welcome to get in touch with me directly: [email protected]

        Also have a look at this video – a bunch of ‘bearded men’ explaining women rights! You don’t see it this often :-P

        https://youtu.be/5Jvh3BNsSkM

        • RG52

          Adbullah, it is great to see you practising that fine Islamic tradition of taqiyya. What you claim clearly doesn’t fit with the texts of islam.

          • Abdullah

            Hi RG52 – finally the taqiyyah card is thrown at me! It seems like those who slander Islam knows way more about this ‘concept’ than Muslims themselves. When I first got thrown with this word, I spent sometimes going through those anti-Islam websites to understand how that word is potrayed.

            I found it interesting because ex-Muslim groups who are preaching against Islam, they never discuss or raised this issue. It seems that this concept of ‘taqiyyah’ – the way how you put it to me (ie. lying to deceive the unbelievers) is mainly discussed and raised by those from outside Islam. My first conclusion was, ‘taqiyyah’ issue (as you understand it) was created from nowhere for the sole purpose to slander Islam. Those ex-Muslims who hated Islam for whatever reason would have used it in their talk, speech, writings etc, if such concept exist in the teachings of Islam when they were a muslim. :-)

            I assume you are aware of this website which has been quoted regularly on whaleoil. If you are not, please have a look at it:-
            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

            The way how the Quran and Hadith were quoted is exactly how @sandalwood789:disqus did. The way how the website is written, as far as I am concerned is shallow and deceitful. It will never be passed as something you can refer to it at the university. At least they should have quoted everything in full. I mean how can you argue on the basis of a sentence from a paragraph.

            What I would like you to do is – have a look at the quoted verses of the Quran (http://quran.com/) and tradition (http://sunnah.com/) from the source. I encourage you to use your own judgement and see the argument being put forward on that website.

            Indeed, the most disliked created beings in the Sight of God are the deaf and the dumb who do not use their intellect. (Quran, 8:22)

            You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. (Quran, 17:36)

          • RG52

            “He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.” Bukhari 49:857

            Good old Wikipedia has references to Taqiya and its origins which are apparently rooted in Islam.

            You are jumping to conclusions regarding what I may or may not read. The translation of the Koran that I have and use for reference is the by Muhammad Khan and Muhammad Al-Hilali, but as we both know, the Koran is only a small part of the literature.

          • Duchess of Pork

            How can you argue from the basis on a sentence from a paragraph? You did that above Abdullah by omitting the first sentence from Quran An-Nisa (4:34) in your explanation of beating as a symbolic, reciprocal gesture between husband and wife.

  • RG52

    Abdulah. My reason for reading the Koran was to try and get an understanding of why muslims behave in the world as they do. After reading the Koran I find that I have to agree with this quote; “After reading the Qur’an, I realized that I couldn’t possibly endorse Islam as a religion, as a philosophy, as a moral standard, as an ethical code, or even as useful fiction. I determined that these philosophies and this image of Allah could only come from an extremely warped and disturbed person who suffered from an aggregation of the most severe and profound human weaknesses.” Susan Crimp.

    Islam effects us all whether we want it too or not. I believe everybody should have a basic understanding of the theocratic fascism of political islam.

    We have just spent a day remembering our fore fathers and the battles they fought against oppressive regimes, and now we have what is possibly the worst regime of them all appearing in the west. I believe we need to stand against political islam while welcoming the peaceful (which I am told your branch of islam is).

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