Whaleoil General Debate

keep-calm-and-don-t-shoot-the-messenger-3Morning everyone, and welcome to Whaleoil’s daily General Debate post (another one called Backchat will start at 6pm). To participate you’ll need to register a free Disqus account.

There are some rules, and if there is one thing about Whaleoil that you need to know is that these rules are dispassionately and strictly enforced.


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  • Ten degrees in Auckland? That’s a shock to the system when only a few days ago it was 20.

    • MaryLou

      Rugged up with Ug boots and woollies. Problem is dressing for work – I know that by 2pm it’s still likely to be pretty darned warm!

      • “Layering”

        • Woody

          When I first heard the term “Layering” I wondered what on earth they were on about. Eventually I realised that it meant exactly the same as my mum saying “Put more clothes on”.

    • Wheninrome

      As long as the 4 cornered knotted handerkerchief is not on your head, nor roman sandles with your socks, you are good to go.

      • I have you know I dress impeccably. (pic)

        • MaryLou

          In a dress. Mind you, that’s a very becoming shade of purple.

          • So you’re ok with me being a Chimp, but a cross dressing Chimp is slightly disturbing? Give it time. You’ll accept me as I am. :P

          • Justme

            You looked more professional in a shirt and tie.

          • hookerphil

            Petunia, Petal, Peta, Petra, Petula, Petronilla, Petronia, Petrova,
            There, take your pick.

          • Petal, clearly.

        • Wheninrome

          The banana could raise all sorts of questions. Dietary that is.

        • Huia

          Oh dear, just call me Caitlan, that was you get to monkey around on both sides of the fence.

      • kereru

        Hey, you forgot the braces – de rigeur with a knotted handkerchief.

    • R&BAvenger

      1degree frost at Christchurch Monday morning and a bracing 2.8 degree start to the morning. Autumn has arrived and the sunny mild days are great. 10 degrees? That’s luxury!!!! Yes my Yorkshire roots and Pythonesque humour is showing.

      • Bryan

        a lovely sunrise this morning as we headed out at 6.30am this morning and could not believe the traffic at that time but this is what folks have done to beat the roads start at 7.30 and head home at 3.30pm and enjoy the long lovely canterbury evenings great.

    • shykiwibloke

      It’s where you put the socks that is a concern. On your feet would be acceptable.

    • Disinfectant

      Sounds like a civil servant from the 60’s and 70’s.

    • KGB

      Shorts and socks is just wrong Pete. It’s like that ad “togs, togs, togs, undies, undies.”
      A step too British ?

      • Huia

        Is only wrong especially when the socks are worn with sandles or jandles.

      • shykiwibloke

        Perhaps walk socks with a pen tucked in the top. He could easily get a job as a bus driver, courier or 1970’s teacher patrolling the playgrounds at lunch.

    • MarcWills

      -1.2 °C in Christchurch on Tuesday – yet I have no mould developing in my house. I can’t understand why I am so fortunate.

    • johcar

      I have had to zip up my leather jacket on the ride to work the last few mornings. And had to reinstall the quilted liner in same!!!

      Winter is coming!

  • George

    Apparently I’m a feminist according to Rachel Smalley! “Anyone who believes in gender equality, is by definition, a feminist. It’s as clear as that”. Whilst I appreciate that being elevated into the sisterhood should be accepted graciously, I refuse to be labeled a feminist. I give a little to charities but does that make me a socialist? I have been caught taking a second glance at an attractive woman, does that make me a sex predator? I have even put my arm around a young child, does that make me a pedophile? Rachel Smalley has even made sense occasionally, does that make her a capitalist? See what I mean.

    • The one thing I do know is that your sanity is in doubt if you listen to that lady’s show.

  • shykiwibloke

    Media Party seem to be wringing their hands at Labour support for the Kiwibank/Post deal – chasing the greens (small g deliberate) for comment on the ‘ it’s a step closer to privatisation’ angle. Funny. Almost worth all the policiticians deciding to pretend to agree on something to see what acrobatics the MSM would perform. Now that would be an April trick to remember!

  • Cadwallader

    As with yesterday I am sensitive to the underlying negativity of the media, however this morning it seems the politics of envy were trundled out, albeit obtusely. There has a been an incident in a school play at “one of Auckland’s most exclusive schools.” I am sure the incident was ghastly for those involved but what is the use of referring to exclusivity in this regard? Is it a subtle shot at those parents who can afford to send their sons to the school? Is it a soft claim that were it an over-unionised school the incident wouldn’t have occurred? I am not sure but given the slants adopted by the media I suspect either message may be intended.
    The Greens have again displayed their sad ignorance as to economic matters by claiming that the government through selling a portion of Kiwibank (to itself) is setting it up for ” privatisation.” It seems the word privatisation is the dirtiest word in a Greenie’s dictionary. Needless to say their gibberish is being well-aired by the media. The sun came up this morning as expected and the media headed off on its own self-preening and deluded adventures just as predictably.

    • R&BAvenger

      I was surprised as you were that some unfortunate incident at a private Auckland school is leading our news this morning. The msm have few clues.

      • WeaselKiss

        One presumes the administrators of the school and of this production will be eyeing the new H & S laws recently introduced with a high degree of trepidation.
        At first look I get the impression the injuries are considerably worse than what is being reported. I hope not.

        • crigs

          I am wondering what Worksafe are going to do. Will this mean the end of school productions, because they sometimes have unfortunate accidents occur?

          I am also worried because my son (a year 12 student) is part of the Health & Safety committee for his school film that is getting filmed next week. Some people want to use drones for filming but the producer & my son think it might be risky. What happens if there is an unfortunate accident while filming? I presume the school gets the visit from Worksafe & no liablility falls on my son. At least this Auckland school production incident might make my son’s filming department think more closely on the the H & S factors.

    • Graham Pilgrim

      Similar “politics of envy” were trundled out yesterday in a Herald report on problems with some new homes in Orewa.

      The Headline read, “Fix-up puts residents out of RITZY dwellings”.
      The sub-headline read, “Urgent remedial work being done on homes in POSH Orewa estate”.
      The first sentence read, “Residents in SWANKY $700 million Auckland housing project…..”.

      How dare people have the cheek to live in “ritzy, posh, swanky” homes!

      • Cadwallader

        Within the frame-work of media driven envy would be the other end of the scale: “Poor peoples’ homes require remedial works to alleviate mould, dampness etc before another winter under this heartless government strikes.” It is much the same message but would include some stupid observation from a Greenie that the homes must be eco-friendly while Little Angry would insist that they have to be “affordable.” This carry-on isn’t reporting but a glimpse of an agenda which has been neither welcomed nor sought.

  • shykiwibloke

    I’ve decided to become a bike riding, anti-Semitic, trains-gender, academic with a limp, spiritually aligned to several minority ethnicities. Look at the benefits:-
    1) can completely disregard inconvenient laws, while severely penalising those that cross me
    2) increased access to various grants and the public purse to fund my lifestyle
    3) although I am part of a small minority, my transport needs are better served than all other sectors combined – if I abuse pedestrians say in Hagley Park – I can get a cycle way built without much effort.
    4) nobody likes public toilets that are heavily used by others, so I am on a mission to get some that meet my needs only
    5) when I use the car (rainy days) I can park in the disabled spot
    6) if anyone challenges me on why I arrive to work late, leave early, not turn up at all – I have a variety of unchallengeable excuses
    7) when I get upset I can vent my anger on that favorite whipping boy of the left – Israel – and not only avoid being censured – but increase my kudos in the eyes of many that fill my plate. I secretly feel sorry for Israel, but this is business you understand. Nothing personal.

    Alas I am a white male with a job. Married for thirty years to a woman. I believe in personal responsibility, property rights, small government and true equality for all. Two healthy normal grown up daughters. Saving for my own retirement and 100% own my own house.

    Mmmm. Seems I am the real minority after all.

    • Kiwiracer

      I am in the same position as you, but it seems that this real minority has got national over the line a couple of times lately

      • shykiwibloke

        A mere blip on the shining path. Unfortunately not predicted early enough for our salmon-farm strategists to refine the free money for all policies as well as we would have liked. We all still smile at the interest free student loans trick! damn. Got my Kaftan caught in my bike chain and dropped my city intensification strategy document down the drain grate.

    • Annoyed

      You forgot “journalist” – then absolutely anything you do could be “in the public interest”.

      • shykiwibloke

        Thought about it, but hard to maintain my purity as an academic then. I wish to stay on my high horse and criticise others – keeping away from those ‘dirty politics’ types.

        Oh sod it – while responding to you, I’ve accidentally deleted the juicy hacked massaged data I was about to leak to Nicky.

  • Macca

    I had to laugh yesterday at the release of the Kiwibank policy. The very first thing the Media Party do is run off to their go to man Andrew Little and the only thing he can come up with is how the government needs to make sure they have ‘checks and balances’ in place so it can’t be privatized in future blah blah blah

    Note to Little. Unlike your party and the Greens, National actually think policy through properly and cost them before their release. I’m pretty sure that the privatization aspect of it would have been looked at already and I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings to you and your shills in the media but you weren’t the first one to think of it. Now go back to doing what you normally do all day which is nothing and leave the running of the country to the grown ups!

    • Wayne Hodge

      Michael Cullen on Paul Henry this morning pointed out it was not possible to ensure no privatisation. No privatisation relied upon government policy. It would appear Little was wrong, again!

  • spanishbride

    This morning I was very politely invited to visit New Zealand’s largest Mosque to discuss the Egyptian Sunni Imams coming to New Zealand to take control of the mosques to supposedly reduce radicalization. The largest Mosque is run by Ahmadi Muslims who are considered Kafirs ( unbelievers ) by the Sunni.

    I believe I will go as my series on Charter schools was needed as all the MSM talked about them but refused to visit them. I cannot in all fairness continue to write about Islam if I am not prepared to visit a Mosque. Since they have not been recognised by the Sunni as being ‘ real Muslims ‘ I like them already LOL

    • Bluemanning

      Have considered for some time that If all the Muslim ‘refugees’ are Ahmadi our terrorist concerns would be far less unless they themselves are targeted for just being here. It will be great to receive your report on the visit. :-)

      • Bluemanning

        SWMBO has carried out some Ahmadi research apparently they are ‘considered’ moderates, but how would one know? Be interesting to hear some on the ground reporting.

        • kereru

          From the mosque’s blurb:

          ‘The life of the Holy Prophet, (peace be on him) was a life of grand success. In his high moral qualities, his spiritual power, his high resolve, the excellence and perfection of his teaching, his perfect example and the acceptance of his prayers, in short, in every aspect of his life, he exhibited such bright signs that even a person of low intelligence, provided he is not inspired by unreasonable rancour and enmity, is forced to confess that he was a perfect example of the manifestation of Divine qualities and was a perfect man.’

          • johnandali

            So does that mean we have to overlook all of the nasty things that he got up to? There is historical evidence of his crimes. And from what I read, there is no way on earth that he was a perfect man. The opposite in fact.

    • Interesting, keeping in mind your stance when I suggested we should take the effort to actually go visit and talk with Muslims in NZ :P

      But jibes aside, I might want to come with you. I have questions.

      It’s in Manurewa, is it?

      • spanishbride

        20 Dalgety Drive, Wiri, Manukau City, NZ

        You can come with me if you agree to wear a hijab ;) but seriously it is really hard for me to go somewhere where I will be asked to submit to another culture’s rules. Having to wearing a scarf in order to go inside will be a real sacrifice for me as it ‘ offends me ‘ as a feminist.

        • Huia

          Let that be the only concession SB.
          Ask them to visit your church in return but ask them to remove their headgear as a concession to your culture.
          Have fun, should be interesting.

        • Well, it works both ways. If you are invited and go there, then you show respect.

          If that gets to the point where you think you are compromising yourself, then you can’t go I guess.

          I deal with Muslims almost every day in the area that I live. As well as Sikhs, Buddhists and I suspect Christians and atheists. There is no violence and we all get on.


          We have seen what has happened in Europe.

          It is that which I am concerned about in a New Zealand context.

          But I similarly do not feel “at home” here when I walk through an East Auckland set of shops and most of the signs have no English on them.

          It’s more a question of metropolitan immigration.

          People used to “integrate”. Now they create their own enclaves. Areas where you feel you may not be welcome because you can’t even read the signs, your dress makes you different, people can’t understand you* when you speak English, so you don’t go there. And more of “them” do.

          I mourn for the loss of the New Zealand “integration” that we’ve had last century. I’m not at all sure I want New Zealand to turn into another place where nobody is truly a New Zealander anymore.

          • kereru

            We live in East Auckland and I heartily agree with you. There are mini Chinatowns springing up everywhere, but that reflects the huge numbers of non-English speaking immigrants who live in the ‘intensive housing’ in those areas.

          • My Landlord needs an interpreter to speak with me.

            When the new people next door were moving in and I asked the person moving the furniture from the van if I could be of help by moving my car out of the way, he had no idea what I was saying.

            There is an economy within Auckland that doesn’t even need to speak English. They look after themselves and each other.

            It’s all friendly and peaceful, but I can’t wait to get out of Auckland because of it.

            I lived in South Auckland for 20 years earlier in my life, and then too I was a minority palangi/pakeha. But at least I was part of the furniture, and they were part of mine.

            This segregation is just painful.

            Still, I am aware that most children go to New Zealand schools, so this may be a generational issue where integration happens again at a later date.

            That still doesn’t make me want to live here. I could be in any metropolitan city now.

            Trucks pass me with signage on it where the only english bit is the license plate.

            There people are welcome, and nice, and friendly, but this isn’t New Zealand.

          • Digger

            If you needed convincing, stand at the traffic lights at the intersection of Botany Road and Ti Rakau Drive during the day. Note the appearances of the drivers and ratios of ethnicities. Rather unscientific but you could very well end up not knowing where on earth you are! Sometimes a whole green light phase passes witho

          • …to add. There is a large restaurant down the road that is very popular and I wouldn’t mind trying it out. All the signage and menus in the windows are unreadable. I have no idea what they offer, how much it costs, or what else it may say.

            It doesn’t feel right.

        • Cadwallader

          Putting aside all the obvious faults with Islam I have to admit that their architecture is magnificent. The Byzantine domes are found on some Christian Basilicas but on this building they are commanding.

          • They used to lead the world in science and the arts. The very alphabet we use today has roots in their culture.

          • Cadwallader

            Other than the absence of bacon their cuisine can be tremendous.This is said on the basis that consumables other than bacon are food.

          • kereru

            That was around 1000 years ago, from 900-1200AD. As far as I can gather, the Roman alphabet was derived from Phoenician and Aramaic, both Semitic languages but not Arabic.

            Interesting article on why the Islamic world has stagnated. Islam has certainly played its part, but it isn’t the only reason.

            ‘By any index, the Muslim world produces a disproportionately small amount of scientific output, and much of it relatively low in quality.1 In numerical terms, forty-one predominantly Muslim countries with about 20 percent of the world’s total population generate less than 5 percent of its science. This, for example, is the proportion of citations of articles published in internationally circulating science journals.2 Other measures — annual expenditures on research and development, numbers of research scientists and engineers — confirm the disparity between populations and scientific research.

            This situation leads to some hard questions: Is Islam an obstacle to modern science? If not, how does one explain the huge gap in scientific output between the Muslim world and the West or East Asia? And what must change so that science can flourish in Muslim countries?


          • Hobbes

            Numbers I think, not alphabet. We use the Roman alphabet. Romans were around before Muslims. The Roman alphabet was derived from a subsection of Greek.

          • rangitoto

            Actually the “Arabic” numerals are of Indian origin. To be fair the Arabs called them Indian numerals so they didn’t claim the invention. They only become known as Arabic numerals because they were introduced to Europe by Fibonacci who learned of them from Arabs in North Africa.

          • Wow. How many levels of wrong can I be?


          • Ruahine

            Fibonacci. The Golden Spiral. The Golden Ratio. Mathematicians joy.

          • Argh. Oh well, let’s call it click bait. :P

          • JohnO

            Al -Jebra (who modern day algebra is named after) brought the Hindu numerals back to Arabia from India where they were invented and they were formerly known in thye west as “hindu-arabic numerals”. This has now been shortened to Arabic numerals. Whoops I just read rangitoto’s reply which says much the same thing

          • kereru

            To be commanding is the intention, I believe. Their minarets are designed to tower over churches to demonstrate the supremacy of Islam over Christianity.

          • Ruahine

            Good place in point is Europa Point Gibraltar. Mosque built by Saudi Arabia to be bigger than the Our Lady of Europa Church.

        • FornaK

          Can’t you do the interview in the car park, where you don’t have to dress up?
          It is NZ after all, just remind them of that

    • rangitoto

      The UK shopkeeper Asad Shah who was murdered for wishing Christians a happy Easter was Ahmadiyya. The murderer has stated that it was justified because the statements were disrespectful to to his brand of Islam.

      Edit – link:


    • KatB

      What an awesome opportunity. I understand the reluctance to “cover up” but I guess it’s to acknowledge their culture, not to agree with it. Now if they ever find themselves in your territory, nothing but the same can be demanded from them. Would it be too much to hope that their interaction with you is informative and forthright?

    • FornaK

      Hope they let you record the interview, and you have a heap of questions ready for them :-)

      • spanishbride

        I will have some questions but I am equally as interested in listening to what they have to say and observing. I certainly am VERY interested to hear how they feel about the Sunni Imams coming to take control of NZ mosques.

    • Ruahine

      Please do a Michelle Obama. No cover up.

  • Ro

    I have noticed in the news recently that a ‘prominent New Zealander’ is before the courts on charges related to inappropriate touching of two young girls.

    I understand that the reason for the suppression is so that this man is not stigmatised in the event he is found innocent and I have some sympathy with that position.

    However releasing someone’s name gives confidence to other possible victims to come forward. Pedophiles are rarely one time or one victim offenders and this person may (I am not claiming any inside knowledge) have a string of victims who have not been believed as “there is no way [Rolf Harris for example] would possibly have done that.”

    How can the courts balance the need of the accused to live a normal life in the event of innocence with the need to be fully informed on the extent of the offending?

    I would also point out that last year two people committing a lawful act in an unintentionally exposed location were forced by media exposure and public shaming to lose their jobs and leave their homes. How could this be any worse than what a ‘prominent New Zealander’ might face?

  • Ringmaster

    Really missing my daily dose of ’round up’. Is it gone for good?

    • No, it’s back today.

      Reflection of life getting in the way. Have caught up now.

      • Poppa

        Well done that man – its my favourite regular read in the evening, then I tackle the backchat!

        • spanishbride

          Pete asked me to do it a while back but I was fired because unlike him I cannot tell an old gif from a new one. Apparently my attempts were often ones you had all seen before. Now I just send Pete ones that I find interesting in the hope that he may use them.

          • You need to be a true Internet tragic like me who knows what is new and what is a repeat. (and even then I catch myself dragging up the odd old one)

          • kereru

            Take comfort, spanishbride. There are always newish people on WO who who are not up with the play and haven’t seen them! :-)

  • Wheninrome

    There is no need to be offensive, “live and let live” is a great way to go.
    HOWEVER of course the other party has to be prepared to get on board with that concept.
    They are in our country, some have probably been born here so qualify as NZers, whether we like the fact or not. Let’s start with respect and move on from there.
    BUT no we do not need more. It needs to be proven to me that they will live like average kiwis – I have no problem with their belief as long as it doesn’t interfere with my way of life, just as other immigrants have brought their beliefs here, think the Dalmations, the Irish, even the May Dancing English, one could go on.

    • JEL51

      Rule no.1 for me is treat the individual as that, an individual, unless the individual cannot separate itself from the group.

  • spanishbride

    I must admit that visiting a Sunni Mosque would be even harder for me. if this visit goes well I may take the plunge and go elsewhere if I am welcome. I may not be given my articles on Islam. I am actually glad that Pete is interested in joining me as he may be allowed to go into the male only areas that I will not be.

    • JEL51

      It will be interesting and probably no different from entering another’s home. I am sure they will treat you well as a guest.

      • I will make it clear that I will ask very difficult questions, and if they don’t give me straight answers, then the PR exercise will essentially fail.

        • JEL51

          Good on you, I am sure the best facade will be on display.

        • shykiwibloke

          A suggestion – bark an order to SB. If she disobeys – ask your hosts if this is acceptable in NZ.

          • Bark an order to SB? Do you want me to be killed by a feminist woman in a mosque? That’s going to be quite confusing once it hits the papers.

          • shykiwibloke

            We all have to make our sacrifices. Could be the turning point in awareness of the issues.
            The other way of looking at it would be as a deliberate suicide in an NZ mosque – now that WOULD peak the Media parties sense of sensationalism.

          • spanishbride

            I am sure the Media will decide that I asked for it sigh….

          • spanishbride

            You are a funny guy Pete. Don’t worry about bringing lunch I will pack some nice pork sandwiches LOL

  • Hard1

    Don’t click….A new type of phishing email that includes the recipient’s home address has been received by thousands of people, the BBC has learned.

    “He said that clicking on the link would install malware such as Cryptolocker, which is a form of ransomware that will encrypt files on Windows-based computers and then demand a fee to unlock them.”

    • johcar

      I can honestly say that I have had no malware related issues for over ten years, despite having only the basic firewall and anti virus apps running.

      Part of it I can put down to the fact that I use the browser interface for Gmail, rather than Outlook, and party due to the fact that I’m not stupid enough to click a link just because it’s there… Hover the mouse cursor over the link first and see where it’s going to take you…

      • About 4 years ago I decided to start an experiment. No antivirus and default settings for the OS (Windows at the time) for any firewall.

        Infections: zero.

        Twice a year I would load software and do deep scans… and nothing.

        At the same time, I was helping people that were being infected over and over again, even past Norton, etc.

        I’ve come to the conclusion that 99% of infections are caused by ignorance, lust, greed, fear or anger. In other words, you are tricked into loading the software because you temporarily dropped your guard (if any) due to a emotional spike.

        • Oh Please

          Many years ago I stopped paying for anti-virus. I never found Norton effective, nor any others. I now use Avast for free, never had an issue. I use MailWasher so I only actually download 5% of the email I receive form the server – the rest never gets as far as my PC. Ignorance and greed seem to be the overriding causes of PC problems.

    • kereru

      We installed Mailwasher some years ago – keeps the incoming emails on your server so that you can blacklist and delete the suss ones before downloading the rest.

  • Sally

    Chris Hipkins abolition charter schools bill has been drawn from the ballot. So another round of slagging off Charter Schools.

  • JohnO

    In ongoing climate wars there is good news for coal burning energy generation.
    Researchers at MIT have come up with a plan that could contribute to that effort by making it possible to generate electricity from coal with much greater efficiency — possibly reaching as much as twice the fuel-to-electricity efficiency of today’s conventional coal plants. This would mean, all things being equal, a 50 percent reduction in carbon dioxide emissions for a given amount of power produced.
    This theoretical hybrid system design could cut coal-plant emissions in half.
    Combining gasification with fuel-cell technology could boost efficiency of coal-powered plants. In addition the CO2 is produced as a pure by product making it easy to sequester deep down under the earths surface.
    Seeing as China and India are not going to give up their coal burning energy-generation this is a way to do it in an-environment friendly way.