Whaleoil General Debate

keep-calm-and-don-t-shoot-the-messenger-3Morning everyone, and welcome to Whaleoil’s daily General Debate post (another one called Backchat will start at 6pm). To participate you’ll need to register a free Disqus account.

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  • Aucky

    When I scanned the online Herald this morning there were five stories relating to Auckland housing, its unaffordability and the flight into the surrounding regions.

    I have a story too about our young South African neighbours who have just moved into their brand new home in Pokeno for a tad over $420k. Mind you they have no flash new furniture or whiteware and are painting the interior and laying their concrete paths and driveway themselves by way of sweat equity. Fiji holidays and a newish car are also off the radar too for a while.

    It would be good to see the Herald write about the positive stories as well but as fully paid up members of the Media Party I guess that’s not a goer.

    • Kiwiracer

      I have the same opinion regarding today’s cartoon. . . . .

      • Woody

        Yep, cringe worthy much.
        The fact that milk powder is only part of our exports to China seems to have been missed by our countries top investigative journalists and lefties. I can just imagine Angry begging them to take him seriously.

        • dumbshit

          “dredging” the bottom of their sludge tank minds, and still score an “own goal”, of sawing off the branch you are sitting on. Surely, milk powder sales benefit the whole country!

          • Woody

            Ahh yes, but – Rich Pricks.

      • Quinton Hogg

        I thought the cartoon was very offensive. It demonstrated the “cartoonists” mindset.
        I don’t waste much time on the herald anymore. even the sports writers are rubbish.
        Can we resurect DJ Cameron please? And Sid Scales as well…

        • Aucky

          A quick scan of the local headlines is quite sufficient and I follow up any worthwhile news items elsewhere. I prefer to source my international news from a basket of reliable offshore agencies and form my own opinions.

          • Quinton Hogg

            I am like that too.

      • Old Kiwi

        Based on your comment, unfortunately I flicked through the previous couple of weeks worth of cartoons. I thought I’d jumped through a link to a leftie blog site. Unbelievable. As Quinton says the mindset on show for sure.

    • cod

      Nothing has changed since I bought my first house, my partner and I at the time had to use 50% of our combined income to service the Mortgage, only in those days it was 19% interest. We lived on borrowed furniture for a while until we could save up and get new stuff.
      And then I can remember periods in the early 90’s when you couldn’t give a house away in Auckland, I think that is what is meant by the word cyclical.

      • kereru

        We started off in a low socio-economic area with a humble ‘group house’ from the 1960s. Lived there 18 years with furniture bought cheaply from garage sales and refurbished. We still have some of it even though we moved 22 years ago to a house that we designed and Mr K helped build. We’ve never owned a new car, or anything ‘flash’ but are quite content and live within our means. Starting off at the bottom and working your way up doesn’t seem to be acceptable in today’s world.

      • Huia

        I agree nothing has changed, its all relevant.
        If you have been watching the Judy Baily program about old movie films capturing a different time in NZ it is obvious nothing has changed, home buying in last nights program came with a 28% interest rate.
        Men built their families homes, concrete work was done by the man and his mates. Women sewed their own curtains and decorated their homes themselves.
        Most clothing was home made back in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. The women did each others hair with home perm kits.
        No dining out or fast food, except for the odd fish and chip meal.
        They didn’t have the iphones, ipads, laptops, latest expensive clothing, nice cars, latest tv, expensive hair cuts and treatments, 20 pairs of shoes or dine out a couple of times a week.
        When you think of all that money spent by todays young home buyers, it seems to me it could have been put into the deposit for a home instead of that they don’t seem to go without and tap their parents for the deposit for a home.
        They want a home but don’t know how to go without to get it, I know there are exceptions of course but generally speaking things are just as difficult now as they were 40 years ago.

        • kereru

          I agree, but there are so many temptations to spend, spend (upgrade, upgrade) – ‘go on treat yourself, you know you deserve it!’ – which just weren’t there in previous decades. Women’s magazines used to be full practical tips on how to make your money stretch, craft and sewing ideas, knitting patterns and family recipes, but these days they’re mostly tittle-tattle about so-called celebrities. A major factor is that most women go to work these days and there just isn’t time to make and mend.

    • Odd Ball

      I’ve always been skeptical about buying houses, because there are disadvantages of doing so, namely, a huge financial commitment which limits your finances, and therefore your freedom, it also limits your ability to live somewhere else if a job opportunity arises. Also most cheaper houses require renovation & TLC, and are time consuming as a result.
      We only brought a house after we got to the point where we could live off one income & still pay the mortgage. It’s not big & lacks a decent section for the kids to play on, however it is close to a school & several parks.

  • Eiselmann

    Voted in the Paul Henry poll against the council selling shares in the Airport, not that I’m against selling shares as such, its just with this councils culture of waste I wouldn’t trust them to spend the money as wisely as they should.

  • Sally

    Last night on the Sunday programme, Dr Robyn Toomath was promoting a sugar tax and said we must forget about personal responsibility and move to collective responsibility.

    Now I have been thinking about her use of the word collective responsibility. According to her the rather overweight woman I see in the supermarket bypassing the veg display and instead loading her trolley with soft drinks, cakes and chocolate it is all big food and drink producers fault. We already pay for her health problems but Dr Toomath wants all of us contribute more to this person because this fat woman has taken no personal responsibility for own health problem. Dr Toomath even advocates that she doesn’t tell people to lose weight because it damages their self-esteem. See this article http://briefingpapers.co.nz/2015/10/why-i-dont-ask-people-to-lose-weight/

    Now, about this collective responsibility that socialist and Marxist are big on. Notice how often academics are one of these. Once upon a time they took some personal responsibility to study hard, to go to university, and get qualified. Dr Toomath didn’t get where she was without taking personal responsibility. Now she can spout on about the collective from her pulpit on high.

    We all know the problem with collective responsibility is everyone is dragged down to the lowest common denominator. So Dr Toomath wants to drag us down to the fat woman in the supermarket who hasn’t got the will power to bypass the soft drink shelves.

    I maybe not a highly educated doctor but I sure am happier in my personal responsibility world than sitting in the gutter with the lowest common denominator.

    • R&BAvenger

      I take personal responsibility for my health. I have health insurance presently as part of my employment conditions. I follow the Fast Diet principles (not rigorously) that enables me to keep trim. I have a dental check up annually. Most of the food we eat comes from the local farmers market or is in a whole form, we make a lot of main meals from scratch, eat plenty of fruit and vegetables.
      It’s all my choice and my responsibility. Why should I be potentially penalised with a tax on sugar? Surely those who are grossly overweight/unhealthy because of their diet choices are the ones who should be paying?
      Mind you, they are ‘paying’ with their health issues and associated increase in health costs, but they are the authors of their own destruction.

      • kereru

        They might be paying the price of their lack of self-discipline and common sense, but the taxpayer is footing the bill for the rising costs of diabetes and other obesity-related disorders. Dr Toomath is an endocrinologist which explains her concern, but taxing sugar is not the way to go about the problem. There have to be disincentives targeting the individuals concerned, not the whole community.

    • Cadwallader

      This reminds me of Helen Clark’s attitude to the 2008 Olympic Games. Helen expounded that “All New Zealanders ought take pride in OUR medals won at the Games.” I do not recall even watching the Games on TV but somehow these medals belonged to me in her mind. This is the collective mind which dismisses the efforts the individuals undertook to win medals by doing their personal best. The decisions we all may make regarding food are our decisions and not that of a collective mind. We can make personal decisions to take care of dietary habits etc.. but how this can be collectivised evades me? I suggest this doctor missed her personal responsibilities when she took the Hippocratic Oath.

    • KatB

      After watching that TV series a few years ago on the Chawner family in England, it became apparent to me that nobody can change somebody else’s relationship with food or help them lose weight. This obese family had every bit of help one would need to lose weight. They had the gyms and the trainers and the dieticians and doctors all at their disposal. They were sent to health farms etc, but hardly any weight was lost and no real change to their relationship with food. I realised then the change had to come from the person themselves and they had to be really ready to change their life for good for it to work and THEY themselves had to put the hard work in. No home delivered food, no personal trainer on call and no sugar tax is going to help anybody if they aren’t prepared to change themselves.

      • InnerCityDweller

        I liken it to giving up smoking. If you’re not ready/prepared to give up, it’s either not going to happen or you’ll go back to it before too long.

      • Sally

        If we become part of the ‘collective’ we should be entitled to walk up to the fat woman in the supermarket and call her fat and tell her to stop buying junk food. We don’t want to waste the ‘collective’s money’ on her health problems and she needs to do her share.

        Imagine the uproar.

      • Bud

        The only people the government should be dictating what they eat, drink and smoke are those receiving benefits.

        • kereru

          And they can do that by paying a good proportion of the benefit in food vouchers which can only be used for a range of pre-determined healthy essentials. Couple that with cooking classes on a budget. Imagine the shrieking if that was made mandatory – what about their ‘self esteem’?

    • cod

      Unfortunately for this highly educated lady, New Zealanders don’t want to become part of the Borg. Apparently, according to the interviewer of Minister Coleman, we should have a sugar tax because 19 other countries had it and we are now out of step. Well on that logic we should also import pollution because china has a lot.

    • kereru

      Dr Toomath even advocates that she doesn’t tell people to lose weight because it damages their self-esteem.

      Lost me right there. As soon as anyone brings up an individual’s ‘self esteem’ I see red. If people are unwise in their choices, surely they’re responsible for damaging their own health and self esteem. I see no reason why it has to be protected by the rest of the population.

      Reminds me of the anti-smacking law which did absolutely nothing to stop child abuse but made a slight tap on your child’s behind a crime. Thankfully our children so rarely got to the stage of needing a short sharp reminder that no meant no that I can’t remember ever having to resort to it. But these level playing field type arguments that because a minority eats too much sugary stuff we’ve all got to pay a tax makes me mad. Target the people concerned, not the whole nation.

  • oldmanNZ

    what is the NZH latest hit on the government? the Panama seems to have died down.

    its all about Auckland houses prices, and how its pushing everywhere else up.
    All doom and gloom…

    untill you read this part….its secretly the government plot to make you vote for them,

    “”The not-so-dirty little secret of the politics of rampant house price inflation is it makes voters richer and happier.”

    • Sailor Sam

      I believe that was the comment from some guy living in Wellington who fancies himself as a financial guru.
      And now heaven forbid, a newspaper is starting to frighten provincial readers by claiming that “Here come the Jafas” buying in provincial centres, pushing up prices there as well.
      And those of us already living there are upset?
      Not at all, bring it on.
      We sold 8 months ago to an Auckland retiree, after buying another house in a small rural town.
      Our house is already revalued by $50,000, thanks to Jafas Moving out of Auckland, but it can still be bought for less than $400,000.
      It sits on a full 1/4 acre, 3 double bedrooms, has garaging for 3 cars and we can walk to the pub, resturants and supermarkets.
      And claims that businesses now are having difficulty getting staff in Auckland is also great news.
      These businesses will move out a well, creating employment in the provinces.
      Wins all round, except for people staying in Auckland.

      • Huia

        No only pushing up prices, but tagging Aucklander’s with the Jafa title.

    • Odd Ball

      The problem with that last quote is that although an Auckland house is getting dearer, so is any other house you might be looking to buy there. You only gain from selling the house if you move somewhere cheaper.

    • Raibert

      And nowhere do you see comment that if Len’s council provided infrastructure to the green fields already identified as future growth areas most of these problems would go away!

  • Wayne Hodge

    I see the Fairfax papers have another hit job on the government with a ‘column’ by Jane Bowron this morning attacking English and Key. English on his jobs comment and Key over his choice of lawyer. She conflated yet again foreign trusts in NZ and domestic wealth.

  • Old Kiwi

    It’s back in the news again. Where are all these people in Auckland that want their house prices to come down. Certainly not the people that own them out right, and I guess those that own them in conjunction with their bank won’t be super keen for their house to be worth $100k or so less today than it was yesterday either. A real vote catcher if ever I saw one. Time someone called the media out on it I reckon.

  • Tom

    I thought he took a year to ” get his team right” Seems not, also wasn’t that year to “talk to the people” and come up with great policies. Less than 18 months to go and it seems the team isn’t right and no policies. I cant believe that the good people of NZ told him to keep attacking JK!

  • axeman

    So the best part and most telling part of that Sunday program on sugar was when Ray Vinnie? ( that chef) cooked a nice piece of steak mash potato & broccoli for about $9.00 vs the Agnus beef burger combo for $13.00.
    Part of the problem is that most are to lazy to get of their backsides and learn to shop or cook.
    The other thing that is just ridiculous is that to me it seems that we want the State to run everybody lives. Through peoples inability to look after themselves we are prepared to give away our personal freedom and our right of choice. Well not me thank you.

    • Usaywot

      But the other problem is that these fat, lazy slobs are clogging up our hospitals and draining millions of tax dollars on dialysis due to their lack of self control.

  • LabTested

    Poll results are in – the UK Natural Environment Research Council has spent £200m on a new research ship for the Arctic. They asked the public to name it and the overwhelming favourite was…..Boaty McBoatface

    That is democracy in action. Bring on binding referendums.


    • Exactly. Because collective wisdom is always of the highest quality :D

    • Oh Please

      I’m guessing all those who voted for the winner have Twitter accounts…

    • Huia

      I laughed when I read that. Couldn’t help thinking that is typical of putting it out into the public arena.
      I remember a class in a primary school in Australia was asked to name the new Emu in the local zoo, the name they chose was “Spazzy McGee, poor old Spazzy was stuck with that for the rest of his life.
      Maybe Spazzy should take a cruise on the Boaty McBoatface.

  • Seriously?

    US election odds update

    Trump seems to have recovered from some of his more spectacular gaffs, but Cruz keeps that side a genuine race. Meanwhile, reality is starting to bite for Sanders and Kasich.

    Republican nomination:
    Trump: 1.46 (on 6/4 was 2.20, on 31/3 was 1.62, on 21/3 was 1.42)
    Cruz: 3.50 (on 6/4 was 3.10, on 31/3 was 6.00, on 21/3 was 8.20)
    Kasich: 15.50 (on 6/4 was 9.40, on 31/3 was 11.00, on 21/3 was 15.50)

    Democrat nomination:
    Clinton: 1.11 (on 6/4 was 1.19, on 31/3 was 1.13, on 21/3 was 1.09)
    Sanders: 11.50 (on 6/4 was 6.40, on 31/3 was 9.40, on 21/3 was 15.00)

    Next president:
    Clinton: 1.46 (on 6/4 was 1.60, on 31/3 was 1.47, on 21/3 was 1.43)
    Trump: 6.40 (on 6/4 was 8.80, on 31/3 was 6.00, on 21/3 was 5.30)
    Cruz: 16.50 (on 6/4 was 16.00, on 31/3 was 25.00, on 21/3 was 40.00)
    Sanders: 23.00 (on 6/4 was 10.00, on 31/3 was 15.50, on 21/3 was 32.00)
    Kasich: 48.00 (on 6/4 was 25.00, on 31/3 was 32.00, on 21/3 was 38.00)

  • dumbshit

    Just had a phone call from a gentleman, whose “English” is probably his third or fourth language. “Hello, I am calling from the “NZ Govt planning department”.
    After repeating about three times that I was having problems hearing, ( understanding) him, he decided that he didn’t really need to talk to me!

    • Seriously?

      Now that is a good retort for spam callers “What was that?”… repeat until they hang up. Clearly you were named after someone else.

      • dumbshit

        Call from “Microsoft international Windows”, was countered with an offer of my wife’s services to clean his dirty Windows! There was deafening silence from the other end, clearly a response to that was not in the “manual”!

    • Mountie

      I ask them to put someone on that speaks english, as I don’t speak their language.

  • Bert Piepoint

    Was leafing through Stuff earlier and noticed an article about a new “artwork” being constructed in Hamilton. I could not see where the artist got the name “Tongue of the Dog” from. Showed article to SWMBO who immediately said ” oh they are Cuisenaire Rods. A quick Google of these visual maths blocks and would you believe “the eye-catching artwork by world-renowned sculptor Michael Parekowhai” is nothing more than a giant set of maths blocks.So whilst this is supposed to represent the modern face of Hamilton, its a 1920’s maths teaching aid. I think I prefer Bob Jones’s Farming Family at the other end of Town.

    • Usaywot

      A lot of modern art is just a gigantic con job. Talk knowingly and deeply about rubbish and people believe you because they are not confident enough in their knowledge to contradict you. I wonder how many thousands he was paid for this.

      • RightyTighty LeftyLoosey

        Modern art is the classic story of “The Emperor has no clothes”. Every one stands around admiring rubbish whilst too afraid to say what they really think in case they get kicked out of the social circle.

        • Disinfectant

          It also happens in churches, councils and the likes of council funded tourism promotion organisations,

    • Chris EM

      That is truly horrible and pathetic.
      Some years ago, in Hamilton, there was some sort of art competition held by the ratepayers funded museum. One entrant was not in the country at the time, so asked the curator/boss lady to collect the rubbish left behind by the other “artists” after they had finished their works, and to submit that as his contribution. He won.
      I blame Picasso.

  • Huia

    Was playing around and came across this photo. Wondered if the anti Bow and Arrow group will now get in on the anti gun bunches protesting.

    • oldmanNZ

      why does he need to bring the bow to the hospital?

  • Left Right Out

    Karma is just great some times

    I like the way this judge handled this guy who trolled him….