Islam is a “criminal” ideology says Czech lawyer, activist and politician Klára Samková

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Czech lawyer, activist and politician Klára Samková PHOTO-www.lidovky.cz

So many of the voices speaking up against the ideology of Islam are women. I suspect it is naked self interest behind their stance as it is certainly what motivates me. The thought of my grand daughters living under Sharia law turns my stomach.

Not only are women speaking up about the dangers of the ideology of Islam they are also prepared to be brutally honest in their assessments. They are not concerned about being politically correct and are not afraid to offend anyone.

Islam is not a single religion but is divided into different sects. This means that we cannot generalise and say that all Muslims are this or all Muslims think that. I am happy to acknowledge this as my visit to the Ahmadiyya mosque showed me how different sects can be.However it is also a totalitarian system of governance and while the way Sharia law is enforced may differ between Islamic countries,I oppose it vehemently in all its many forms.

Even in its mildest forms, all Muslims acknowledge as a prophet a man who is the total opposite in words and deeds from the Christian Jesus. Whether or not you are religious, few would deny that Jesus was a good man who helped people and did not hurt them. In contrast Muhammad spread his teachings by the sword,he tortured and he stole, he took sex slaves and he married a six year old.

Islam is a “criminal” ideology which deserves to be ranked with “Nazism, fascism and communism”, is “incompatible with the principles of European law” and, like its totalitarian predecessors, must inevitably be defeated.

So argues Czech lawyer, activist and politician Klára Samková in a hard hitting lecture she delivered earlier this week in the Czech Parliament to an audience including (some rather bemused) ambassadors from Muslim countries – including the Turkish ambassador who, with several others, walked out half way through.

Her speech – translated…by 

The law is an intrinsic and inseparable part of the Islamic ideology. It constitutes the core of the content of Islam while the rules claimed to be religious or ethical are just secondary and marginal components of the ideology. From the viewpoint of Islam, the concept of religion as a private, intimate matter of an individual is absolutely unacceptable. However, that’s exactly the principle on which today’s Christianity and the civilizations derived from it rely. It’s the private relationship of an individual towards God which is more or less mediated by one of the churches. Even those members of our civilization realm who consider themselves atheists, i.e. those who claim not to believe in God, automatically extract their attitudes to life from the Christian traditions while these traditions take the form of either folklore or cultural automatisms which makes them share the generally accepted spirit of Europe and both Americas. Again, it’s necessary to remind ourselves that this view is not only unacceptable for Islam but it is also denounced and explicitly named as a crime. Islam rejects the individual conception of faith in God and in a totalitarian way, it forbids all doubts about itself.

It is, she goes on, a belief system based on an extremely regressive, joyless view of the world.

Islam doesn’t share the Enlightenment’s idea of the social progress associated with the future. According to Islam, the good times have already taken place – in the era of Prophet Mohammed. The best things that could have been done have already been done, the best thing that could have been written has already been written, namely the Quran.

Rather than working with the world – as Judaism and Christianity, or at least the civilizations that have arisen from them do – Islam is filled with hatred for it.

…This faulty conception also gives rise to the idea penetrating all of Islam about the identification of matter with evil and the contempt for our civilization which is considered materialistic, and therefore intrinsically evil and clashing with God. It’s a genuine tragedy of the Muslims themselves that they have eternally closed their journey to God by pursuing this dead end.

Its vision of humanity is grim and riddled with self hatred.

Depression, perishing, the absence of faith in the human and his irreplaceable value, skepticism towards the dignity of every human being regardless of his characteristics such as religion, social status, sex, and nationality, that’s what characterizes Islam. Islam has rejected philosophy as we know it, as a possibility of a critical and rational view into the nature of reality.

Which probably explains why Islam isn’t big on either human rights – or scientific progress.

This attitude is also preventing Muslims from thinking about the questions on human freedom, dignity, the role of a person and the state, and – paradoxically – also the questions about God which became, within the Euro-American civilization context, an inherent component of the schemes of thought pursued by top scientists – astrophysicists, mathematicians, biologists, who are touching the very foundations of the Universe and therefore the essence of God by their research. However, Muslims are forever forbidden to gain any direct contact with God which they lost at the moment of Prophet Mohammed’s death. How immensely desperate their life must be when it’s essentially just the waiting for death.

Unfortunately, Islam doesn’t want to be miserable on its own. It wants to take the rest of the world down with it.

Islam doesn’t respect development, progress, and humanity. In its despair, it is attempting to take the rest of the mankind with it because from the Islamic viewpoint, the rest of the world is futile, useless, and unclean.

This doesn’t make for a particularly cosy relationship with Western liberal democracy. But most politicians and lawmakers, not least in the European Union, are in denial about this.

Islam and its Sharia law is incompatible with the principles of the European law, especially with the rights enumerated in the 1950 European Convention on Human Rights (and Freedoms). How is it possible that our law experts don’t see this conflict? How is possible that they remain silent?

Muslims have got very good at exploiting what they perceive as weakness in the West’s liberal values.

Islam likes to hide behind the religious mask [for] its permanent, deliberate, and purposeful abuse of the Euro-American legal system and values that the civilizations built upon the Judeo-Christian foundations have converged to. There’s nothing better or more efficient than to abuse the value system of one’s enemy, especially when I don’t share that system. And that’s exactly how Islam behaves. It wants to be protected according to our tradition which it exploits in this way, while it is not willing to behave reciprocally. It relies on our traditions, it claims that the traditions are important, while behind the scenes, it is laughing at us and our system of values.

In Europe, they justify their demands on the grounds that Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights guarantees them freedom of thinking, conscience, and religious faith. But what they – and many lawyers – don’t appreciate is that this Article is subordinate to the one introduced by Winston Churchill, precisely in order to stop the Convention being refused by totalitarian ideologies.

Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention.

This article was introduced to the Convention by Winston Churchill personally who did it for a special reason, namely as a protection against the totalitarian regimes. He was obviously thinking of the relevant ones of that time, the communist regimes. I have Islam in mind which is equally totalitarian and threatening as the regimes that Winston Churchill was fighting against and which he defeated. The protection by Article 17 correctly applies against any ideology and the fact that the European countries constrained by the Convention decided not to enforce the article so far doesn’t mean that they don’t have the will to do so. These countries are just too kind and benevolent, too aware of the price they have paid while learning about the highest value of the humanity, and too patient.

So far Islam may have made all the running. But it has reckoned without one thing: despite the West’s apparent weakness, the experience of World War II in fact made it tough as nails.

The assumption of the Muslim countries and leaders who have decided to terrorize Europeans by their understanding of the world that the cause of Europe’s inactivity is its weakness, is entirely flawed. Europe has been converging to its opinion and to its world view for the price of tens of millions of human casualties, it has paid by suffering that no Muslim can even imagine.

This will eventually come to a head – and it won’t be pretty.

For some time, Europe will keep on asking this question about the peaceful co-existence. At some moment, the question will undergo a metamorphosis and it will sound very differently. It will no longer be DO YOU WANT TO LIVE WITH US but DO YOU WANT TO LIVE? Do you, the Muslims, want to survive? Because if the devotees of Islam won’t want to live in peace, Europe and America will do what it has done twice when they were threatened by ideologies attacking the essence of the humanity: it will wage a war and crush the enemy.

So it’s in Muslims’ own interests not to go any further down this route.

I am using this gathering and call on all Muslims and all countries that claim that Islam is their religion: Stop it. You are on a wrong track. You are on a track that leads away from God. You are on the road of the murderers. Your death won’t get you to Barbelá, to the land of the non-creator God, but to the land of nothingness and nameless uselessness. Nothing will be left out of you and the name of your alleged religion will only be pronounced when people spit out saliva that was mixed with the dust from the road of the successful, happy, and beloved by God people.


Klára Samková delivered this speech at a conference called “Should we be afraid of Islam” organised by a lawmaker in ANO (the billionaire Babiš’s populist centrist party), Zdeněk Soukup. It took place in the Czech parliament and guests included the ambassadors of Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Samková, though an outspoken radical, is definitely not on the far-right. On the contrary, she’s an activist best known for her defence of a a generally unpopular minority group in the Czech Republic – the Roma – and is widely considered to be a Social Justice Warrior. In the past she has also collaborated with the Union of Czech Muslims – though not so much after this speech.

…There are various reasons why Czechs are generally more anti-Islamic-immigration than anyone else etc. It’s hard to convey all the correlations and some of them are speculative. But we have the communist experience which made us immune against some cheap propaganda about the social engineering projects and rosy future they will make. Second, in 1938, we were betrayed by the Munich Treaty – this is an indication that the Western capitals sometimes want to decide about our matters without us. So this is similar – instead of the Germans who could spread in all of Europe without limitations in the late 1930s, now it’s the Arabs, and it’s decided in the Western European capitals again.

Then Czechs are atheists and from many perspectives, that places them even further apart from Muslims than Christians are from Muslims, if you get this point.

-breitbart.com

 

 

 


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  • localnews

    “Its vision of humanity is grim and riddled by self hatred” I had been trying to find the link between leftys and Muslims, there it is!

    • kereru

      Strange bedfellows. Little do Lefties understand the insight of Winston Churchill who said, ‘“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping it will eat him last.”

  • sandalwood789

    She is exactly right.

    This woman is far more intelligent than John Key and all other Western so-called “leaders”.

    • kereru

      She’s not in the grip of the UN in general, and the UNHCR in particular. To quote Matthew Henry, ‘There are none so deaf as those that will not hear and none so blind as those that will not see’ – unless they realise exactly what they’re doing and are going with it anyway, a truly awful prospect.

  • johnandali

    Perhaps it might be the right time for Murray McCully to read this when he gets back to his hotel in Tehran tonight after socialising with the Iranian leadership. For instance, he should recall how the Iranian justice system works. The ten-minute court cases leading to the immediate death penalty with no appeals allowed. The stoning to death of any woman involved with a married man, and so the list goes on. Barbaric Islamic customs and laws have no place in western society, and our country is not the right place to accept Muslim refugees, as they can never integrate into our society, our customs and our laws that give equality to the sexes, freedom of speech and religion etc. It’s like mixing water and oil. You can put them in a bucket together and stir them along, but they will speedily separate. So Murray, hop on a plane, apologise to the Israelis and vow to help them negotiate a lasting peace with the Palestinians, and come home to share our rotten winter weather.

    • Duchess of Pork

      Mr McCully might also like to enquire whether the Iranians carried out their promised eye for eye retribution punishment on Mojtaba Saheli who blinded a taxi driver with acid in 2009. Saheli was blinded in one eye with acid last year and is currently set to undergo the destruction of his right eye.

  • colin herbertson

    It’s only fair that so many of the voices speaking up are women because it tends to be the more female dominated countries that are suffering the most damage.

    • sandalwood789

      Just look at those female “defense ministers”. You can almost see the naivety sloshing around in their heads.
      You get the feeling that if their houses were invaded by Muslims and a knife were held at their throats, they would say “Hey, can’t we just have a cup of tea and talk about this?”

      The Russian guy, on the other hand – he is all business. There is *no way* you would mess with him.

      • Abdullah

        Yeah – the Russians are very kind towards Muslims. We have one of the biggest Mosque in Chechnya, الحمد لله

        Vladimir Putin was there during the opening day together with Kadyrov. It is beautiful.

        They also return one of the mosque that was taken from muslims during communism which then later converted to movie theatre. It was beautiful. I highly respect Putin as a good fellow Christian.

        • kereru

          Vladimir Putin is as crafty as a fox.

          • Abdullah

            Sure – people ridicule Putin on so many fronts but not one leader has called him stupid. At least I see him regularly attended church for Christmas. He usually attended the small church in his hometown with no obvious security presence.

            Chechnya used to be a war torn country. I remember reading UN reports and saw the pictures then. It was concluded that Grozny can never be rebuilt.

            This has changed. Grozny is now a beautiful thriving city الحمد لله!

    • Duchess of Pork

      As the prime ministers of Sweden, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark and the UK are male I don’t agree with attempts to turn opposition to Islam into a gender tussle. The countries being undermined by Islamic colonisation are western liberal countries, not female dominated ones and both sexes are contributing to the demise of their nations.

      ‘The truth is if we are going to build that strong inclusive and vibrant society we need…… many more Muslim men and women at the top of British businesses , many more Muslim soldiers in the highest levels of command and of course more Muslims in our parliament so there is not just one Muslim in the cabinet and one in the shadow cabinet but British Muslims all
      across government in positions of leadership and authority.” David Cameron.

      • Greg

        David Cameron is mad.

      • Richard

        If you spent time in muslim-majority countries and got to know the locals you’d find the changes from within are being driven by women who are sick of the crap being dished out by men.

        • kereru

          Yes, and countless thousands of Muslims are deserting Islam altogether as they are so heartily sickened by its brutality. I know of several Christians being tortured in the squalid prisons of the ME who say that if being incarcerated wakes up the free world to the reality, then they’re happy to continue to be there. They ask not for prayer that they might be set free but for the strength to endure whatever is meted out to them. It’s very humbling to those of us who still have our freedom, which we tend to take for granted.

        • Duchess of Pork

          Not always successfully though as Whale Oil’s Face of the Day for May 20 illustrates. “The former model, Elham Arab, 26, had been something of an Instagram star….after her Instagram account had been shut down, she wore a pious black scarf and matching gloves as she was questioned by two prosecutors during a live television program…Ms. Arab spoke of her “bitter experiences” in Iran’s technically illegal modeling industry and warned young women to think twice before posting pictures of themselves online. “You can be certain that no man would want to marry a model whose fame has come by losing her honor,” she said.

          • Richard

            Fundamental societal change is going to take a long time. The Christian reformation took 500 years. The Middle East doesn’t have 500 years and this is all being played out globally in real time. I reckon in many ways it’s a clash of genders, with women pushing back on a deeply male-dominated religion and cultural norms.

            But it varies enormously, what Qatari women put up with would earn a kick in the balls in Kuwait (40 mins flying time away)

          • Duchess of Pork

            Oh I think demographic trends and nucleur developments will ensure those fundamental changes occur within the next fifty years. Both for the Middle East and for Europe and probably ensuring some civil unrest along the way. Wahhabism does seem to be making its move globally.

          • Richard

            And the internet. It’s becoming increasingly difficult for the clerics and the dictators to keep the population under control

        • Duchess of Pork

          Richard your continued assumption when you intermittingly visit this blog that I and other commenters here have not lived in or visited muslim majority countries is naive to say the least. It is the very reason why many of us do not want this ideology perpetrated in New Zealand.

          • Richard

            So have you lived in muslim-majority countries? Visiting Dubai doesn’t count.

  • kereru

    I might add that the absence of joy in Islam contributes to its banning of every kind of joyful expression whether in music, art, performance or literature. Joy comes from the soul of mankind made in the image of God – to suppress it is inhuman.

    Worse, to express ‘joy’ at the carnage of others is a symptom of a totally depraved ideology born of the enemy of our souls.

  • F T Bear

    It’s a bit like looking to the south and seeing the dark clouds massing. You can believe it won’t rain or it won’t rain much, or you can put some sand bags around the house. You can drive to the east and hope you won’t get wet. The one thing you can’t do is stop the rain from falling.
    We will all just have to deal with the rain when it falls. Just like we always have. And the article is right, it won’t be pretty.

  • Abdullah

    Majority of the reverts are women rather than men.

    :-)

    I want to thank whaleoil for the opportunity to be part of this blog. I have been inundated with emails wanting to learn Islam which I’ll focus with priority. I won’t be able to reply here as much but those who are honestly interested, email me for discussion.

    Thanks – [email protected]

    Have a great week everyone.

    • Richard

      Good on you Abdullah. As someone who lives in both Islamic and muslim-majority countries I find much of the rhetoric on WO appallingly ignorant. The living breathing moslems I know are nothing like what’s painted, and varies enormously by geography, culture, piousness etc. Just like the rest of us :-)

      • Abdullah

        Thank you Richard. You must be one of the many kiwis who are very supportive of Islam. It is very encouraging to know that despite all the negativity painted upon Muslim, we have great support from people like you. Islam in NZ is going to stay and it is expanding over time. It is best for us to get along with everyone. I am here to break that barrier.

        “People fear what they don’t understand and hate what they can’t control”

        I appreciate your kind words. After all we are brothers and sisters in humanity.

        Have a good night. :-)

        • Greg

          “People fear what they don’t understand and hate what they can’t control”
          That’s where you are wrong Abdullah, people all over the world are starting wake up to Islam and it’s true meaning.
          Geert Wilders was painted as a racist nut job a few years ago and now it looks like he will be the new prime minister of the Netherlands… the populist “genie was now out of the bottle”, and could never be put back in.
          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/21/britain-could-liberate-europe-again-by-voting-for-brexit-and-spa/

          • Abdullah

            Hi Greg. Sure, time will tell. I recall that same sentiment after Sept 11. Whatever the political outcome is, I am making an effort to break that barrier.

            I was meaning to reply to your earlier post. I am sorry because I am busy atm. If you’re still looking for answers with regards to taqiyyah etc- click on my name. I have replied to it in the past. Download that app – research yourself what are the meaning of those verses of the Quran.

            Have a good night.

          • sandalwood789

            Given that Islam has killed 270 million innocent people (and counting) according to best estimates (see the link below), it is very clear what Islam stands for (and it isn’t peace and co-existence with “infidels”).

            https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

        • Richard

          Don’t get too excited Abdullah, I’m not supportive of Islam in particular, I’m supportive of people being able to worship as they wish.

          I believe in foundational western values such as the religious pluralism above but also the law of the land owned by the people through democracy. I certainly don’t want a society and the law being determined by the church, be it Catholic Christianity or Islam.

          But as you say we are brothers and sisters in humanity and I believe we can have different points of view and not feel the need to force them on the other.

          Best wishes and good on you for accepting the challenge to engage

          Richard

          • sandalwood789

            “…we are brothers and sisters in humanity …”

            Really? Then why does Islam divide the world into “Dar al-Islam” and “Dar al-Harb”?
            Why does the Koran contain over 500 verses of hate towards non-Muslims and over 100 calling on Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims?

            I’m not trying to “get at you”. I’m just pointing out facts at the very core of Islam that contradict what you’ve said.

            “…we can have different points of view and not feel the need to force them on the other.”

            I’m sure that that is what the citizens of North Africa, Persia, Afghanistan and other Muslim-invaded countries thought as well. They were wrong.

          • Richard

            Hi Sandalwood, yes I know about the divided world-view and the sword verses. My experience over several years is that I have never met a moslem that hates the west. They are far, far more worried about the failing states, the zealots pushing for confrontation, and a general feeling that their societies are disintegrating.

            To be fair, I have been involved with educated people and that’s a big deal. If I was talking to one of Egypt’s 25 million illiterate or in the tribal north west of Pakistan I expect I might hear a different view.

            The thing is, right across the Middle East and North Africa, many of the states are failed or failing, and people are afraid and pulling back to their family, their tribe, their sect – it’s not pretty.

            There’s a thread of religion that runs through this but it’s much more complicated than just religion, in my view

          • kereru

            ‘To be fair, I have been involved with educated people and that’s a big deal. If I was talking to one of Egypt’s 25 million illiterate or in the tribal north west of Pakistan I expect I might hear a different view.’

            A very different kettle of fish, which changes everything. Our eldest son trained with a few Muslim guys at Med School who were good friends and colleagues. More polite and pleasant people you couldn’t ask for. But I suspect, as maybe you do, that they were Muslim by birth but not by conviction.

          • sandalwood789

            If I remember correctly, Zawahiri (head of al-Qaeda) trained as a surgeon in Egypt.

          • kereru

            Yes, well I suppose butchery is a form of ‘surgery’, isn’t it. Certainly know where to insert the scalpel or sword.

          • Richard

            Well there are “degrees” of Christianity too, although many Christian zealots will tell you otherwise. Just like… moslem zealots

          • kereru

            I’m not sure what you mean by Christian ‘zealots’, but one thing I can say is that they will never threaten to kill you if you refuse to convert, throw you in a filthy overcrowded prison without trial and torture you daily until you change your mind, or sentence you to death for ‘blasphemy’ as they do in Pakistan. Today’s estimate of persecuted Christians is around 150 million. How many Muslims are in prison for their faith alone?

          • Richard

            As they do in ‘some’ parts of Pakistan.

          • kereru

            Sorry, can you enlarge on that comment?

          • Richard

            So when I’ve been in Islamabad no-one gave a toss what religion I am, they were far more concerned that I was from New Zealand and that the Black Caps are great :-)

            And the moslem wife of my moslem colleague is the most hard-core feminist you can imagine, and a member of Pakistan’s foreign service, and doesn’t take crap from anyone, least of all her husband. She point blank refuses to move to the the Gulf because of the cultural restrictions she fears will be imposed and that she doesn’t endure in islamabad.

            She is obviously not going to want to live in the regions of pakistan, particularly the northwest.

            What I find on the Whale Oil comments are one-size-fits-all rhetorical half-truths from people that appear to have little to no actual experience living day to day in the cultures they criticise

            There are elements of truth in the comments, but far from the whole picture. Well that’s my view.

          • Abdullah

            Spot on Richard. Although I have met few Pakistani who change their allegiance to Black Caps recently ;-P

            Somehow they think they are kiwi enough that they can support both sides in the last world cup. Lol.

            I can see now why you have far better understanding than the rest of the commenters here. You have spent time with Muslims. You are not the typical person who just believe everything they read on the interweb.

          • kereru

            Both my grandfathers were born in India, and one great grandfather. I do know what I’m talking about for my maternal grandfather was in the Indian Police and used to regularly ride off with around 200 mounted policemen to quell riots between Hindus and Muslims. He spoke 8 languages, 6 of them Indian languages.There was no Pakistan then, nor Bangladesh. Partition was the eventual response to the reality that Muslims could not, or would not, co-exist with non-Muslims anywhere without conflict. And that was 100 years ago.

            Given that the intelligentsia of Pakistan must know full well what’s going on in their country, what reason do they have for allowing the violence against minorities to continue? It simply isn’t good enough to enjoy wealth and privilege while personally shrugging off the plight of minorities living in the provinces, where they personally would not want to live. What choice do the ordinary people have, especially impoverished Christians denied their most basic freedoms?

          • Richard

            Slightly at a tangent and whilst two wrongs don’t make a right, parts of India have an absolutely appalling attitude towards women. And the vast majority are Hindu.

            Not surprisingly it’s the poor uneducated north where women suffer the most.

            To your point “Given that the intelligentsia of India must know full well what’s going on in their country, what reason do they have for allowing the violence against women to continue?”

          • kereru

            Hindu Nationalists also persecute Christians and accuse them of ‘bribing’ Hindus to convert. No evidence of that, but since when did evidence count for anything? Of course they don’t understand that nobody can ‘convert’ anyone to Christ – it’s purely the work of God Himself. As Christians tend to try to help the marginalised, the poorest of the poor, Hindus feel threatened that they’ll lose their power over the vast army of uneducated, malnourished Dalit men, women and children who are allotted the very worst jobs of all. And who then will go down the sewers and clean the streets of dung, or labour in the brickfields?

            That aside, Hindus generally settle very well into Western nations and contribute to the community without demanding special rights for themselves.

          • kereru

            What indeed? Of course, in India the caste system plays an important part, as well as their belief in reincarnation and the transmigration of souls. No help for those in need – they must have done something wrong in their previous life and they must accept their fate.

          • Richard

            My point was, why do the intelligentsia stand back in India, as you observe in Pakistan?

            I don’t know the answer to that although it may be that they see dangers in inflaming huge numbers of a generally uneducated population by challenging deeply held cultural beliefs.

            Anyway the only deeply held cultural belief I’d like to change in NZ is that binge drinking is a good idea. How’s that for a change of subject :-)

          • kereru

            Ha yes! Excellent point. Calling it a day now.

          • Richard

            I’d appreciate if you would reference the source material for 150 million persecuted Christians please?

          • kereru

            Sure. An exact total is hard to obtain because of the very remote areas where persecution is taking place, or the necessary secrecy of the vast underground church. Some consider 200 million is more accurate and the lower figure is a conservative estimate. Apart from agencies advocating for the persecuted such as Open Doors, Barnabas Fund and Voice of the Martyrs, Release International, China Aid and many more, there are several reports in the media. Persecution, particularly of Christians, is increasing both in intensity and numerically. That’s why we would prefer the NZ Government give them sanctuary. But it has fallen on deaf ears, even though Christiansy have had to flee UN refugee camps because of attacks by Muslims. Now they’re being attacked in camps in Germany.

            http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/255861/abandonment-christian-victims-genocide-today-joseph-klein

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9640825/Christians-persecuted-throughout-the-world.html

            http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/christians-the-worlds-most-persecuted-people-9630774.html

            http://christianity.org.uk/index.php/a/are-christians-being-persecuted.php

          • kiwi

            Yes but the Bible does not give them licence to eradicate all other religions.

          • Abdullah

            Hi sandalwood789. Pickup the Quran and read it for yourself.

            Oh btw, dar al harb and dar al islam does not exist in the quran :-) If you happen to find it, you deserve a Nobel prize ;-P

            Seek for the truth and you shall find the answer.

          • kereru

            Are you denying that Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb exist, Abdullah? Sandalwood did not say that they appear in the Qur’an but in Islam.

          • Abdullah

            The danger of trying to explain this type of question in this limited reply section is I need to know what you do understand first. It is a total waste of time to explain it if you are not at the same page with me.

            The basic concept of the divisions (the way how I think you understand) does not exist in Quran or the Prophet teaching. This was a term invented 700 years later. Then there is Dar al Amn, Dar al Dawa, Dar al Sulh etc.

            Drop me an email to have further discussion.

          • Greg

            duck, dive, weave, spin, twirl…. just answer the question Abdullah, stop the BS and answer the hard questions.

            I had an hour long discussion with a Muslim recently and just like you, he was a master of deflection. Islam = Domination by steath.

          • Abdullah

            We have been buying lots of buildings recently to function as Mosque. 10 years ago I don’t dream places like Taupo, Rotorua, Nelson, New Plymouth, Hawera, Te Kuiti would have Mosque. It is everywhere now.. Some of the Mosque has stealth paint. You won’t be able to see them without the infrared goggles. This is a new meaning of Domination by stealth.

            We are coming to get you…. ;-P

            Have a good sleep.

          • Greg

            Knowing the world is finally waking up to people like you helps me sleep at night and you? How does it feel that the silent majority of people are starting to fight back?

          • Abdullah

            I am not going to lose my sleep when Muslims are increasing by day.

            (1)إِذَا جَاءَ نَصْرُ اللَّهِ وَالْفَتْحُ
            (2)وَرَأَيْتَ النَّاسَ يَدْخُلُونَ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ أَفْوَاجًا
            (3)فَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ وَاسْتَغْفِرْهُ إِنَّهُ كَانَ تَوَّابًا

          • spanishbride

            For the benefit of our readers here is a google translation of the quote.

            ( 1) If Nasrallah came and conquest

            (2) I saw people entering the religion of Allah in crowds

            (3) glorify the praise of your Lord and ask His forgiveness that he was returning, Most

          • kereru

            I think it’s rude to quote in a language few understand to make your point. I’m not much the wiser, but thanks for your translation. Perhaps I should quote the OT in Hebrew and the words of Revelation in Greek? ;-)

          • Kiwi

            Yes, the birth rates are incredible and most children live because of modern western medicine. Unfortunately most of these births are to the lower socio-economic group that cannot properly feed or educate them unless they are lucky enough to have moved to the west.

            Rough figures for Syria are that in the fifties the population was two million, it is now twenty two million. The lands are infertile because of constant cropping and they now cannot feed themselves. And still they have child after child who will grow up in poverty with no future.

          • spanishbride

            I think Greg it is important to remember that individual Muslims are not our enemy. Abdullah believes that his religion is good and has something positive to offer others. We may disagree but that does not mean we should treat him or others with hostility.

          • kereru

            I think it’s interesting to note who employs obfuscation in their arguments when these debates take place. Who speaks defensively and uses condescension and sarcasm to rebut valid (but troubling) points of fact. Who gets rattled and starts to beg the question? I’ve noticed this in debates whether between Christians and atheists or Christians and Muslims. Body language is not available to us, but it sure comes out when you view these debates. I’m thankful to say I have never seen a Christian debater lose their rag and become objectionable. Who has the stronger case?

          • BMSKiwi

            Abdullah, your prophet Jesus once reckoned we could identify a tree by the fruit it produces.

            I don’t know if it’s recorded in the Quran, but I’m sure you recognise the truth in the statement.

            Looking at the fruit produced by the Islamic world, what kind of a tree should we judge Islam to be?

          • Abdullah

            What do you think? My faith in Islam if anything is stronger than ever. I used to not to care much about explaining Islam to non muslims. All I care about was my job and my volunteer work in NZ. I am tired of hearing of the negativity in media. My friends and I are putting lots of efforts to introduce Islam to everyone in NZ. Our aim is to get everyone to learn/hear what Islam teach rather than what media painted about Islam. If anything – so far it has been quite successful.

            20,000 US citizens reverted to Islam every year. The numbers are growing despite the negativity in media. World population increases by 2.3% per year and Muslims increased by 2.9% per year.

            Time will tell. Life after death will confirm what we believe in. I am striving my best for the sake of humanity as instructed in the Quran.

            Have a good night :-)

          • spanishbride

            Hi Abdullah I think what you have written here is why to be honest I pulled out of meeting with you. I wanted to talk about Islam, to hear your side but most importantly to get my questions answered. My feeling from our e-mails and from this comment on the blog is that your focus ( which I understand as who wouldn’t want to share with others a faith you truly believe in?) is to convert others to Islam.

            You use the word ‘revert’ to Islam. At first I thought that was because english might be your second language but now I think I understand its significance.

            ‘The Prophet Muhammad once said: “No child is born except upon fitrah (i.e. as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a polytheist” (Sahih Muslim).’

            – islam.about.com

          • Abdullah

            Thanks SB – all I did in our previous email conversation was to answer your questions. I cannot answer your question without going through how a Muslim understand.

            There is no point if I start explaining why we do something when you have a completely different understanding of that same subject.

            I use the word ‘revert’ as this is the preferred word by the new ‘converts’ and they quoted the same Hadith that you did.

          • spanishbride

            Hi Abdullah, yes you answered my questions with quotes from the Quran and links to articles. What I was wanting was your personal opinion. If I asked a Christian or a Jew questions about their religion I would also feel that they were trying to convert me if they didn’t engage with me by giving me their personal point of view but quotes from the bible or Torah instead. I am sorry if my impression was wrong but it put me off.

            I can find quotes in the Quran to back up all of my opinions about Islam just as you can find quotes to back up yours.Here is a link to quotes about the dress code for women which has been used to justify the Hijab as a religious requirement for example. .http://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/quran-and-hijab

            The problem with the Quran in my view is that if you believe it is perfect and cannot be changed or questioned then you have to simultaneously believe opposite things, as it has peaceful and violent verses. Rigid adherence to ANY religious book is a problem to me as I believe we should think for ourselves and question what we read.

          • Abdullah

            1. If I were to give my personal opinion – it becomes my own opinion. A Muslim is a Muslim because she/he follows Islam.

            2. I am surprised that a strong women like you feel that way. You should not feel insecure with you own conviction. Will it be easier if you talk to a lady instead? (before anyone claim anything, I mean this in a nice way, not condescending)

            3. If you really can find quotes of the quran you should. I have always challenge people to do that. I have been to most anti-Islam websites. Their quote is either incomplete or the translation has been changed – but the original, unchanged arabic of 1400+ years are there for absolute reference. Btw http://www.al-islam.org/ is a Shi’ite view, which as you know in your post represents less than 5% of Muslims.

            4. The violent verses in the Quran… really? https://prophetrejectors.wordpress.com/

          • kereru

            ‘..but the original, unchanged arabic of 1400+ years are there for absolute reference.’

            Unchanged? The latest findings do not support that view.

            ‘The fundamental Islamic belief that no word of the Quran has changed is put in question by a rather unique ancient manuscript, a palimpsest, known as ‘DAM 0 1-27.1.’1 It was discovered by Muslims in 1972 at the ancient Great Mosque of Sana’a in Yemen. According to the latest academic studies, aided by the use of ultraviolet photography, this palimpsest contains many differences when compared with today’s Arabic Quran. They range from different and missing words and dissimilar spelling to a changed order of Surahs and words within verses. The find is part of a bundle of parchments thought to be the oldest surviving copies of the Quran.

            A palimpsest is a manuscript from which a text has been scraped or washed to make room for another one in order to re-use the expensive parchment. Such a process would normally only be done after several centuries. However, in the case of ‘DAM 0 1-27.1’ it took place within the first century of the ‘Hijrah’ (7th and early 8th century AD), shortly after the Uthmanic recension. This is confirmed by the fact that the primary writings that reappeared and the secondary ones that followed, including the corrections of both, were found to be made in the ‘Hijazi’ style of the first Islamic century. The characteristic, irregular lines of that particular style exist in all the four above mentioned developmental stages of the text.’

            An in-depth, scholarly study follows.

            http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html

          • spanishbride

            1. Okay, so to be clear is true Islam, Sunni Islam in your view?
            I ask because different sects all claim to be Islam and to be following the teachings of the prophet Muhammad and the Quran.
            2.I am not insecure at all which is why I visited NZ’s largest mosque. I found the Ahmadiyya Muslims there to be lovely. They didn’t preach to me they simply explained their beliefs and their history and they happily answered the few questions we asked.

            I am happy to engage on the blog or via e-mail with a Muslim lady. If we both feel comfortable it can then progress to a meeting for coffee somewhere in between our two locations unless you know someone on the North Shore?

            I would prefer to talk to a woman who was brought up Muslim rather than a convert as I feel they often have limited grasp of their new religion compared to someone who grew up with it.

            3. The problem with this point is that no matter what I quote you will tell me that the translation is incorrect or incomplete and as I do not speak Arabic we are then at an impasse.

            4. Yes really. Muhammad as you know was unsuccessful spreading his new religion via peaceful means. It was only once he started robbing caravans, taking and selling slaves and killing the opposition that his new religion took off.

          • BMSKiwi

            What do I think? I think Jesus meant something like this:

            In a world of seven billion perspectives and opinions, it can be very difficult to judge the moral worth of values and systems. What is up and down, good and bad? We get lost in a mirror maze of relativism and metaphysics.

            If you take being a good person seriously, you will have come across this problem.

            So your Prophet was giving us a tip. Set aside for a moment the metaphyscial arguments. Look at the societies and systems around you. Their ‘fruit’ is the practical measureable results they generate for humanity – things like:

            – Economic progress (food, water, shelter, GDP per capita)

            – Social progress (liberty, emancipation for minorites and women)

            – Scientific progress (discoveries about the nature of the universe)

            – Medical progress

            – Prosperity

            – Peace

            He was saying that where you find a ‘tree’ (social structure or society) producing useful ‘fruit’ like this, it is a very good indicator that the values of that society are good and worthwhile. These societies have much to teach us about right and wrong.

            Likewise, where we find:

            – Poverty

            – Continual conflict

            – Scientific and intellectual backwardness

            – Limited freedom

            Where you find ‘fruit’ like this, you will almost certainly find a society governed by false or distorted moral principles.

            Don’t you think Jesus was pretty clever? I have always found this tip quite useful.

          • Abdullah

            Indeed – Jesus is clever, just like all the other prophets of God. Muhammad has nothing but good words about him. You raised a very intelligent points, and I like that.

            Have you ever read anything about the Islamic civilization?

            Have you ever read who first described Diabetes Insipidus accurately? Do you know this book Canon of Medicine which is the foundation of Western Medicine? I will let BBC explains it to you.

          • BMSKiwi

            I do indeed know a little about the Islamic civilisation, and it did achieve some things. I always think of Algebra.

            But as you know, morality, like humanity itself, exists at a point in time. There is no point saying ‘I was once a good man’.

            What useful fruit has Islam produced for humanity in the last 400 years? Or the last 16 years?

          • Abdullah

            You are correct, Muslims are in bad shape for the last 100 years. They were on top of their game back then. Why don’t you look for the answers? There is a black hole in the history that you do not learn. I will let Sir Ben Kingsley explains it to you.

          • BMSKiwi

            The last 100 years have been the easiest time in human history to learn, to progress, to develop. There is far more teaching and technology than was available to thinking men 500 years ago.*

            Why then, in this time of all times, has the Islamic world failed to achieve anything noteworthy? What does it say about Islam?

            * and let’s be honest, the greatest achievements of Islamic civilization pale into insignificance alongside the modern discoveries of the West.

          • Abdullah

            Okay I am going to reply to you one more time. We can go on like this but it will become pointless. Everyone has their opinion. I will summarize it for you.

            1. Have you actually watch any of the videos I share. The foundation of the current so called civilisation is based on Islamic age. Flying, algorithm for computers, medicine etc.

            2. Look at the history books. Middle age? There is a massive blackhole of history there. Have you ever wondered why?

            Have a great day.

          • kereru

            This is all well and good, Abdullah, but please take the trouble to provide the evidence for your claims rather than keep deflecting the issues by asking rhetorical questions, referring us to videos and ‘history books’ or telling us to ‘read the entire Quran’. All this does is imply that you can’t answer our queries for yourself.

            If you make a claim, any claim, the burden of proof is on you.

          • Abdullah

            Agreed and should I expect from both sides. :-) I did have the videos posted that answers the questions. But no one look at it right?

          • BMSKiwi

            Abdullah, I want your words, your thoughts, your understandings to chew over.

            Not those of somebody else in a convenient online video. Can you explain your faith to yourself? Have you ever challenged, like all good people must, the values systems taught you by your parents?

          • kereru

            Crickets….as expected.

          • Richard

            Ya and if you have a look at the Michael Porter-inspired “social progress index” which measures safety, opportunity, social mobility, personal freedom, education etc. you’ll notice that New Zealand tops the list along with many other western countries whereas the middle east does very poorly. These are the real things that matter to real people and that those pushing religious agendas would do well to contemplate.

          • spanishbride

            The stealth paint is a brilliant idea Abdullah but what gives them away every time is the call to prayer five times a day ;)

          • Abdullah

            Yeap – we are on the same page :-)

            Just because someone in the family vote for Green and I vote for National – it does not mean we can’t be family anymore. Those differences that make our life colourful and interesting.

          • sandalwood789

            I would like to ask just one question of you, Abdullah.

            Millions and millions of innocent people have been killed by Muslims in the last 1400 years – simply because they weren’t Muslim.
            Do you feel any shame about that?

            ( Please do not insult our intelligence by replying with the “those killers weren’t Muslims” line. )

          • Richard

            I think you’ll find that’s not restricted to moslems.

            Christians slaughtered pagans and many others throughout Europe, of course there’s the crusades, and the Catholic church has a long history of depraved brutality.

            Or the Communists who hold the record for over 100 million killed during the 20th century

            So I guess you’ll be asking the same question of Christians and Socialists?

          • sandalwood789

            Sorry, Richard – the “tu quoque” approach doesn’t work.
            Neither does diversion or “red herring” tactics.

            I’ve asked a question of Abdullah and as yet he hasn’t replied.

            Just because group B has done something that group A has done, that doesn’t get group A off the hook.

          • Richard

            I agree, two wrongs don’t make a right, but hypocrisy is not a good look either, in my view

          • kereru

            Richard, I respect your views but the Crusades took place from 1095AD to 1291AD.

            The Crusades were a medieval response to the taking over of Christendom’s holy places by Muslims who exhibited just as much cruelty and barbarity as their opponents. Since then there have been three significant events – the Reformation, the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution. These events have not taken place in the Islamic world. What have they achieved? A ‘Golden Era’ of dhimmitude of the Jews in Spain and what else? Where is their innovation, research for the betterment of humanity, excellence in science, medicine? Everything they use has been invented, developed, manufactured in non-Islamic nations. The cars they drive, the planes they fly, the medical equipment in their hospitals – imported expertise and innovation. And despite their exorbitant wealth they are the last to give aid when their own people experience natural disasters. And then they give only to Muslims and a shameful percentage of their wealth. Note the numbers of refugees entering Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States as a recent example. Zero.

            In 1974 Algerian President Houari Boumedienne made a prediction at the UN. ‘One day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere to go to the northern hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.’ More recently a Muslim cleric told Westerners at an interfaith meeting in Turkey, ‘Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you. Thanks to our Islamic laws we will conquer you.’

            Once again our holy places are being ravaged, the Temple Mount is for Muslims only, churches are being burned down all over the Muslim world. Christians are being hunted down like animals, kidnapped, raped, imprisoned, tortured. Once again Muslims are invading the West with the intent of subjugating it. And we’re just rolling over and asking them to come out of our abundant compassion – and look at the result. Europe is in chaos. It seems to have lost its will to live.

          • Richard

            There’s a lot of points in here. I don’t think moslems are invading the west with the intent of subjugating it. Perhaps a few are but I reckon the vast majority are simply looking for a better life because on all the evidence the west has a far better system than the stuffed up parts of the middle east they’re fleeing from.

          • kereru

            Why are we ‘kufr’ in the despised West expected to give them the benefits of all our hard work and advancement without any obvious gratitude on their part. All they seem to want to do is to create ghettos in our cities, make demands for special treatment, build mosques and madrasas and live as they have always lived in their failed societies. Then accuse us of not providing all they have been used to when we pull out all the stops to help them settle. No other people group has caused so much trouble to their host nations than these. Even the lovely Vietnamese former refugee who worked at the Mangere Resettlement Centre when I was taking an ESOL course, heaved a sigh and forecast that these particular people were going to cause problems in the future.
            As a grateful and loyal immigrant myself, it infuriates me how much they take, and how little they show appreciation by blending in and contributing. And I’m not referring to the upper crust of Islamic society, which could well be productive, but so-called economic migrants who have not done their homework. While trying to teach a resentful young Syrian mother how to speak English, an angry male friend of theirs arrived and proceeded to erupt with fury that he had not been able to get a job. He turned to me and declared, amidst showers of spit, that this country was “RAACIST!’. What was his area of expertise? The nuclear power industry.

            It turned out that the Syrian couple were only here to rob our music shops by taking musical instruments and sound equipment on approval. When they had amassed a roomful, they hired Uni students to load a container – destination Dubai. Only when they’d flown out did the Auckland music shops liaise with one another and discover that they’d been duped, got the Customs onto it and the container was unloaded in Singapore and shipped back in the nick of time.

            Yes, it’s hard to adjust, yes it’s hard to learn the language – but you chose to come so be thankful you’re safe and get on with it. Your host owes you nothing. And if it still doesn’t suit you, you have the freedom to return home.

          • Richard

            Well there are entitled losers in lots of different countries. I can think of some other ethnic groups in New Zealand that actually do “create ghettos in our cities, make demands for special treatment”

            And for every bad anecdote I’m sure you can find perfectly fine outcomes.

            I’m not here to defend everything-Islam, I just believe that painting every muslim with a broad brush is unhelpful, telling other people that their culture and religion is bad is unhelpful, and isn’t going to make any difference anyway.

            Over and out

          • Bryan

            open your eyes Richard, who is paying for all the new mosque’s being built in Europe Saudi Arabia! then connecting them all to their weekly broadcast from their country.
            Maybe SB it’s time to re post the one from Dr Warner about the history of Islamic expansion which we were never taught at school and note northern France and Britian were two areas they never got into.
            Ask yourself this which two countries are all these so called islamic refugees coming from way across the world from the likes of pakistan and passing so many others countries yet they all say “we want to get into Britian ” who is directing them, and why and also bankrolling them with payments into their bank accounts and you think they are not intent on invading the west sit down Richard and watch this about 40 mins and note the maps

            here is the link

          • Richard

            I think I do have my eyes open Bryan. Well at least partly.

            For instance, when I talk to Siham who comes from Tunisia and she tells me about the zealots with british accents who came to her country a few years ago. They targeted the poor communities that the dictator had ignored giving them money to become more observant “good” muslims. And muslims like her who are very anxious about this development as they want Tunisia to continue it’s shaky path to pluralist constitutional democracy.

            You are right, Saudi is donkey deep in a lot of this, but the problems of the middle east go far deeper than islam. Religion is a part of the story but I believe the situation is more complex than just a single issue.

          • Bryan

            explain the 525 attacks on christianty since the 6th century before you start on the 7 defensive crusades and that was up till 1920 and since then 19000 and still counting

      • spanishbride

        Muslims are individual people so of course they can be lovely. We have never ever said that being a Muslim makes you a bad person on Whaleoil. We have always been very clear that it is the political ideology that we object to because we are not ignorant of what that is.
        I like many people who are Socialists but I disagree with their political beliefs. That is not ignorance, it is my point of view.

        • Richard

          Sure, but some of the commentators have truly horrible things to say. A person may have a genuinely held point of view that is profoundly ill-informed, that is, ignorant. Just as I may have.

          Anyway, I suspect we agree on more things than we disagree :-)

          • kereru

            I haven’t been on WO for long, but my experience so far is that ‘truly horrible things to say’ don’t pass the moderators.

            I’m personally more concerned for the plight of the millions of stigmatised and marginalised Christians who suffer ‘truly horrible things’ (such as being burned to death in a brick kiln) merely for refusing to deny their faith in Christ.

          • Duchess of Pork

            This is my concern also and I would be interested in hearing both Richard and Abdullah’s views on the atrocities and suffering currently being inflicted by Moslems on Christians in the Middle East, North Africa, Pakistan, Indonesia and the asylum centres of Europe. And let’s not forget about Hindu and Buddhists when we allude to Moslem violence against other peoples and religions. The Islamic conquest of the Indian subcontinent has been termed the bloodiest story in history and despite the formation of Pakistan and Bangladesh (or maybe because of that) Moslem violence and attacks on their Hindu neighbours continue to this day in India.

          • Richard

            I think the atrocities inflicted on anybody anywhere are horrible, regardless of religion. I think the Russian’s use of white phosphorus bombing on civilian populations in Syria is horrible but that’s communists for you.

            I’m not here to defend Islam or promote Christianity.

            I’m simply providing one person’s experience of actually living and working in Islamic and muslim-majority countries

            What I do believe is that the english-speaking ‘Anglosphere’ – the UK, USA, Canada, Australia and NZ – have evolved by far and away the most successful system of wealth creation, social mobility, human rights, safety and security. Not perfect but plenty of others such as Western Europe and Japan have copied elements of this, and on the evidence there is none better.

            Separation of church and state is a key aspect of this success.

    • Johnno

      No thanks, Abdullah, I certainly do not want to learn about Islam from you and I doubt you would have been “inundated with emails wanting to learn about Islam”.
      The Whaleoil website have published many excellent articles about Islam and the internet is also a great source of information. I do not need to talk to an apologist for this vile ideology.
      However, from my observation Islam is nothing but a barbaric death cult and all the bloodshed and torture, all these wars, all the oppression, all the murders, all the obscenities and perversions, because of one evil and crazy man 1400 years ago believed he was talking to an angel.
      We as Christians believe that God sent His son to die for us, but you Muslims believe that Allah demands that you send your son to die for him.

      • Richard

        Case in point…
        Perhaps Johnno, if you did a little less “observing the internet” you might have a more nuanced view.

        • Johnno

          And perhaps, Richard, if you did a little bit more “observing the internet” you might have a more realistic view. Case in point… Greg’s video above.

          • Richard

            Hi Johnno, I observe with my own eyes as I have lived in “Islamic” and muslim-majority countries for several years. There are elements of truth in some of the criticism of Islam but much that is exaggerated in my experience. Oh and whilst somewhat exotic, much of the rest of the world is crappy for one reason or another. New Zealand is awesome. Cheers.

          • spanishbride

            My brother-in-law has lived many years in an Islamic country. His experience of it is very positive as he is a man and his freedom has not been curtailed in any way. My sister-in-law on the other hand will not go outside without a male escort and without a head scarf. She feels unsafe otherwise despite their wealth and status. Some places she won’t go even with an escort because she says it is simply too unsafe for a woman to go there. In many ways I feel she is a bird in a gilded cage and she is not even Muslim.
            I agree that NZ is a wonderful place to live as a woman and I want to keep it that way.

        • spanishbride

          We are all biased due to our upbringing but in my case my bias did not exist until I started to educate myself about Islam.I was totally ignorant about it so I read the Quran, read what ex-Muslims had to say, watched videos of Imams explaining their version of Islam and read the history of countries that became Islamic and how it happened.
          More importantly I follow many news sites and keep up to date with what is happening in countries that have significant minority Muslim populations. What is happening is not good. That is not my bias it is reality. Some people want to believe that even though bad things have happened in many many countries it will be different in their country. I am not that naive. It is a pattern that has been repeated over and over again. When you find yourself in a hole you should stop digging not claim that your hole will be better than someone else’s hole because you used a nicer shovel.

          • Greg

            Thank you spanishbride, you have saved me 30 minutes trying to type exactly what you have expressed

          • Abdullah

            If you have read the Quran in entirety – I am really interested to know which part you are unhappy about.

            I must say I am disappointed when WO decided to pull the plug for us to have the planned discussion.

          • kiwi

            The arrogant superiority that muslims are better than everyone else who should be subjugated and humiliated by their muslim betters. The verses describing the Christians and jews as animals – Xians being of low intelligence, like cattle and Jews being born of pigs and apes. The overarching hatred of the Jews and which has certainly helped the rise of anti Semitism worldwide.
            And that is just for starters, Abdullah. You are just another muslim male who believes that women like me have only half the intelligence of a male. (You have to believe this for the Qur’an says so and you must obey without question, not allowed to think for yourself or outside the dictates of the Holy Book)! That would be blasphemy and we al know the law for that – same as the one for apostasy.
            Sorry to disappoint you – statistics prove otherwise about the intelligence of women (and that is what males of your ideology are petrified about, another proof that Islam is rubbish and that the prophet set up Islam to satiate his lust for power, women and control of the world.
            Why you would believe in this ridiculous ideology or even remain following it as it drags its followers further back into the realms of barbarity in a world which has virtually disproved the authenticity of the Qur’an, boggles my brain. I suppose it is basically fear of the repercussions of your brothers . So sad.

          • Abdullah

            Come on give me the verses. Not just some spew from those website who misquote a portion and left the other.

            Btw, I dont take it kindly for you to put words in my mouth. Islam put mother’s right 3x more than father’s right. Islam was very clear that the rewards of looking after daughter is paradise (no mention of a son).

            https://youtu.be/_XyqLg_obEY
            https://youtu.be/E9rB6LWt7eo
            https://youtu.be/iYhrX85Qnu4

          • kereru

            ‘Islam put mother’s right 3x more than father’s right. Islam was very clear that the rewards of looking after daughter is paradise (no mention of a son).’

            You expect others to quote sources – can you give the Quranic reference for this?

          • Abdullah

            حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو كُرَيْبٍ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ الْهَمْدَانِيُّ حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ فُضَيْلٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عُمَارَةَ، بْنِ الْقَعْقَاعِ عَنْ أَبِي زُرْعَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَجُلٌ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَنْ أَحَقُّ بِحُسْنِ الصُّحْبَةِ قَالَ ‏ “‏ أُمُّكَ ثُمَّ أُمُّكَ ثُمَّ أُمُّكَ ثُمَّ أَبُوكَ ثُمَّ أَدْنَاكَ أَدْنَاكَ ‏”

            http://sunnah.com/muslim/45/2

          • kereru

            That’s tantamount to giving us the fingers.

          • Abdullah

            Sorry if you feel that way – I am busy, I did put the link there for you. It becomes weird when I tried to copy and paste.

          • spanishbride

            For the benefit of our readers google translate says…

            Describe Abu crepe, Mohammed bin Ala Al-Hamdani son told Fadil , from his father, architecture , Ben Qaqaa from Abu Zarah , from Abu Huraira , he said, the man said , O Messenger of God, deserving of good companionship said, ” your mother , then your mother , then your mother , then your father , then Odnak Odnak “

          • kereru

            A lightbulb moment! ! Now I understand!! (not)

          • spanishbride

            I think it is great that you are having a discussion with our readers Abdullah rather than me passing on to them what you said in a discussion with me.

            As I have acknowledged I am biased due to my research so readers directly discussing with you means you can get your message across without the ‘bias’ filter that I would apply when writing about it.

            I would particularly like to engage with New Zealand Muslim women to hear their perspective. It certainly has been good to hear from someone like Richard who has lived in an Islamic country as a non-muslim.

          • Richard

            Totally agree with this. I was telling an Indonesian friend (a Sunni Muslim) about the vigilante style Muslim Patrols trying to assert control in parts of the UK and she immediately became very animated as to how important it was to stamp that out fast…

      • Andy

        “Christians believe that God sent His son to die for us, but you Muslims believe that Allah demands that you send your son to die for him.”
        Well said.

    • intelligentes candida diva

      Whaleoil has and continues to provide excellent educational material that is easily understood with factual evidence e.g. The Q’uran.

      Having a person who provides a potentially biased interpretation as the premise does not equate to good learning.

      It does not take learning to know why women are leaving, a few examples
      taking little girls as child brides
      condoning rape
      punishing women who are raped
      beating women …….

      • Richard

        But the thing is, if these were fundamentally “islamic” issues you would find them in all moslem-majority countries and that’s simply not true

        • intelligentes candida diva

          Actually Richard the thing is in any Islamic country where sharia exists so too does
          taking little girls as child brides
          condoning rape 
          punishing women who are raped
          beating women …….it is fundamental according to The Quran so I bet it is going on in Islamic countries wheresharia exists
          I believe those Muslims who do not condone such acts ought to be speaking up as vehemently as non Islamic people are
          The real thing is they are not as there are good people who embrace a new homeland
          What irks me is the use of the terms ‘extremist, ‘miliitant’ but they are not they are following what The Quran says because it is a political ideology

          https://www.rt.com/uk/337257-scottish-muslim-shopkeeper-killed/

          Find a list of Islamic countries &
          https://nosharia.wordpress.com/list-of-muslim-majority-countries-with-sectstategovernment/

        • Abdullah

          Again, I have attempted many times to bring this exact point you made. Using logic like you did, people can find the answers.

          Just because the catholic priests are convicted paedophile, it does not mean Christianity taught the priest to be a paedophile. Don’t blame Christianity for what the priests did…

  • waldopepper

    she says – The problem with Islam, she argues, is that it’s not so much a religion as a “totalitarian system of governance”.

    i have always said – islam is a barbaric and repressive political ideology masquerading as a religion to further its ends while hiding in plain sight.

    i feel vindicated (as if any was needed) and will continue the fight !

    so many lefty mates. so little time.

    • Richard

      She exaggerates, in some countries, in some interpretations, for some people…
      But sure, partly accurate

  • Greg

    • waldopepper

      only 169 days till president trump.

  • Mike Webber

    Spot on, well said.

  • JC

    You gotta feel sympathy for Muslims.. who wouldn’t want to kill this:

    JC

    • Madam Bookye

      Enjoyed it very much. Have to admit that in Russia where I originally from all jewish melodies were and are very popular in spite of proarab and openly anti semitic government policies(at least in the past). This is from russian figure skaters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkyUqsN6e30&feature=share

  • spanishbride

    Yes it can be both or only one and for some Muslims they are only interested in the religion/faith side of Islam. Political Islam is the Islam that I fear as its goal is to take control of other countries and to impose Islamic law on the inhabitants.I am glad we are having this conversation and we are less of an echo chamber as you call it when people such as yourself and Abdullah feel free to share your point of view with us.

    • Richard

      Well I truly congratulate you and Pete for taking the approach you have. Believe me when I say that your fear of political Islam and religious zealotry is shared by many moslems and not only in private

  • Greg

  • BMSKiwi

    If this was the case, we would expect to find Golden Rule-like principles a universal component of human social practice. Like we do sex, slavery and other truly hard-coded behaviours.

    – Ancient Mayans (ritual human sacrifice?)
    – Imperial Rome (Gladiatorial combat?)
    – Dynastic China (foot binding?)
    – Pre-European Maori (cannibalism?)
    – Tribal North Africa (female genital mutilation?)
    – Hindu India (Suttee?)
    – Muslim Pakistan, Muslim Arabia etc (…)

    I don’t say directly that you are wrong, only that there is evidence both ways, and the case on Christian influence on human morality is more complex than you suggest.

    • kereru

      Well said. And not to mention tribal people in PNG who value treachery above all other qualities and consider Judas Iscariot as the real hero of the events leading to the crucifixion. Where does the Golden Rule fit in there?

  • kereru

    Here’s the Good News! Out of the rise in persecution comes a huge harvest of new believers in Christ. They are coming in unprecedented numbers. This report is only one of several and comes from Al Jazeera.

    https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/al-jazeerah-6-million-muslims-convert-to-Christianity-in-africa-each-year/

  • JEL51

    Although some below try to defend the subject, I think Klara Samkova’s clarity & bravery has to be admired. There are too few in leadership that have the intelligence and courage to stand-up in defense of our way of life. Everyone should take the time to take-in what she has to say, store it in your head and observe for yourselves over time. Klara is no fool.

  • Richard

    “Islam no longer possess the military edge that drove her expansion”

    Exactly! I’m unclear how the extremists are going conquer the world militarily insha’allah (god willing) when 10,000 nuclear weapons say that’s quite unlikely.

    The english-speaking peoples have defended western secular freedoms in the past and will do so again.

    • BMSKiwi

      Yes.

      That said, I’m a pretty cynical guy, but we would be foolish to trumpet our military prowess and ignore the thing that makes Abdullah ‘sleep well at night’ – the trajectory of Muslim population growth in the West.

      There is more than one way to cook a frog.

      While I am certain that we haven’t come “safely through the worst” only to be transformed into a new Pakistan by rampant demographics, like some alien horror flick – I see only two ways this situation will be resolved:

      1) the pace and character of Muslim integration dramatically accelerates
      or, 2) Steadily increasing civil unrest and terror followed by the election of a government on a platform of forced integration or deportation.

      There is currently no sign of 1). By 2), there will be blood on the floor, old chap. If you think Donald Trump is a hardliner, wait til you see who ‘we, the people’ choose when Islam is at 20%.

      This is why it is so urgent that people like Abdullah do not get the wrong idea about the West. Gleeful pursuit of population share will not result in a Muslim West – it will result in an abrupt and unpleasant termination of their way of life.

      It’s a tragedy, but we can’t bury our heads in the sand – what other scenarios are possible?

      • Richard

        Actually I think Muslim expansion was also driven by trade as well e.g indonesia, and traders by their nature have to get along. This may explain islam nusantara (of the archipelago) aka ‘tropical islam’ being considerably more easy-going (Aceh being an exception)

        I’m not sure the population trajectory you refer to is birth rates in the west – i’m guessing the majority or births are in crappy countries. I’m no expert on this but development economics suggests that birth rates fall as populations become richer, with better education, nutrition and healthcare.

        My view of the future is that immigrants can believe what they like but they will be subject to the laws of the land and if they transgress e.g. criminal conspiracy, marital rape etc. then they will enter our justice system.

        As to “no sign of 1)” the recent Channel 4 documentary discussed UK plans for more robust “active integration” where action is being taken to reduce the isolation of immigrant communities through e.g. race quotas in schools and social housing.

        Much of what you observe in the fruit of the tree post is quite true and that’s the real reason I think people immigrate to places like NZ – a better life. Sure a few enthusiasts may want to preach and try to convert people but I reckon the majority just want to get on with their lives.

  • kereru

    Excellent post – thank you.

  • Richard

    Well I expect you would know quite a lot more about the mindset of people you live with and talk to every day than someone who hasn’t lived there.

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