Kelvin Davis should check out this issue next time he visits a prison

It is happening in Australian prisons and as our Muslim prison population increases it is likely to happen in ours. Since Kelvin Davis is a regular visitor to New Zealand prisons I hope he will add a few prisoners who follow Islam to his list so that he can keep his finger on the pulse so to speak.

NON-Muslim jail inmates are being forced to convert to Islam by fellow prisoners using threats and violence against those who refuse.

A Muslim chaplain at Kariong jail on the Central Coast has been inundated with requests for extra prayer mats and copies of the Koran from more than a dozen non-Arab ­inmates, according to prison sources.

They also asked to be put on halal diets, which means eating meat slaughtered by a Muslim in the traditional manner.

The situation was exposed after several prisoners approached guards after a number of inmates were ­beaten up for refusing to convert. Three Muslim inmates believed to have been responsible for the forced conversions were then moved to separate jails.

Sources said the inmates had ­requested an imam visit the jail to ­officially endorse the conversions but one was unable to attend before the offending prisoners were moved.

Recruitment of non-Muslims into the religion is also rife at Lithgow jail, with dozens of inmates making the switch, another source said.

However, the consequences of ­reverting can be brutal, with one ­inmate being stabbed by fellow Muslims after shaving off his traditional beard for a parole hearing.

A department of Corrective Services spokesman confirmed at least six inmates had converted to Islam at Lithgow in the past six months.

He also confirmed that Goulburn jail now had a dedicated yard for Middle Eastern prisoners, but denied claims by prison sources that it had been introduced for the safety of non-Muslim prisoners.

…Public Service Association Corrections branch chairman Steve McMahon said the forced conversions to Islam were “very concerning” and “most likely extremist-related”.

“The Muslims in jail are not ­upstanding citizens, unlike many of their colleagues who are upstanding citizens and don’t believe in violence,” Mr McMahon said.

“These people are clearly doing it for some reasons other than their devotion to the faith and it is concerning in light of how dangerous some of these individuals have become.

“We’ve been witnessing a level of recruitment for many years now, primarily among indigenous inmates, but now we’re seeing younger ­inmates being targeted and conver-ted and we’re seeing some fairly concerning behaviour from some of those inmates.”

A month ago The Sunday Telegraph revealed teenage jihadi inmate Bourhan Hraichie attacked his cellmate Michael O’Keefe when the pair were mistakenly put in the same cell at Kempsey jail on April 7. The teen extremist allegedly choked the former army reservist, whipped him with a cord, poured boiling water over his face and carved the letters E4E — meaning “eye for an eye” — into his forehead.

Senior prison sources said the ­attack lasted more than 20 minutes, despite O’Keefe’s cries for help, ­because Hraichie and his followers warned prisoners they would “cop the same treatment” if they used the emergency intercoms in their cells to alert guards.

Mr McMahon said the department needed to keep track of Muslim inmates recruiting inside jails as well as prisoners who had been converted.

“I don’t believe enough is being done to catalogue and track who is being converted, and certainly not enough is being done to equip officers with the skills they need to manage what I see as a major emerging problem in NSW,” he said.

University of Western Sydney Bachelor of Policing co-ordinator Michael Kennedy, who specialises in radicalisation, said prisoners were an easy target.

“In order to survive in jail you’ve got to be part of a group ­because individuals don’t survive,” Dr Kennedy said.

“The best thing for anyone who speaks Arabic to do is to get in with a group of believers and they will be your strength and they will mean that you survive.

…“The majority of extremists are uneducated and they’re doing it because they have to believe in something. There’s a whole range of problems and it needs constant surveillance and monitoring.”

Dr Kennedy said the majority of prisoners who converted to Islam in jail would likely give the religion up once released.

That statement doesn’t ring true to me as apostates don’t do well inside or outside prison. Islam is not an easy religion to leave, just ask any ex Muslim who is still alive.

A Corrective Services spokesman said the number of Muslim inmates at Kariong jail had increased because “the type of inmate had changed”.

…“There have been about six conversions to Islam at Lithgow Correctional Centre in the past six months. Forced conversion to Islam in NSW prisons is not common.”

-dailytelegraph.com.au

As you can see the public line is  that there is no real problem. Have you ever heard of a forced conversion to any other religion inside a prison? It may not be common as yet but the fact that it is happening at all is extremely concerning. We are putting extremists into our prisons and the danger of them converting others with or without force is very real. I hope Kelvin Davis acts as our canary inside the mine and lets us know if it is happening already inside our prisons. Well at least if it is happening inside SERCO prisons, since we know he only likes to highlight problems with privately run prisons not public.

 

 


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  • Duchess of Pork

    This quote from an April 2013 issue of a national magazine indicates proselytizing and possibly forced conversions are already established in the prison system. “Maori convert Sheikh Te Amorangi Izhaq Kiekka-Whaanga… cheerfully admitted he was funded by the Saudis, with an upfront half million dollars to bring the strict Wahhabi doctrine to Maori, particularly those gang members in prison who were ‘at their lowest and ready to grab hold of anything.'”
    Edit: Spelling

    • kereru

      This should be headline news, DoP. What are we doing trying to set up a sheep farm in Saudi Arabia, and allowing Saudi money into this country to fund mosques and madrasas?

      • Duchess of Pork

        Quite. I only recently acquired the magazine from a market stall and was astounded by the information in the article and somewhat mystified that I can find no followup in mainstream media. I am not a journalist but will, as time permits, try to track down the author (Mark Scott) and pursue some other lines of enquiry.

        • kereru

          Well done, DoP. It seems us non-journalists take more trouble to do the hard yards than what passes for most of today’s MSM ‘journalists’.

  • Dave

    There is a rather simple solution to stop this rot, get a contract with a prison in say, Lebanon or Syria, make sure its a harsh place, and send them there to serve their sentence. All Halal food, and if they escape, tough, they have almost no chance of getting back to Aussie.

  • Wheninrome

    Fits right in with the warrior attitude of the lowlifes in jail. Trouble is they will be exported back to NZ bringing this with them, get ready for some more fundamental treatment by gangs.

  • Abdullah

    (There is no compulsion in religion, Quran 2:256), meaning, “Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.”

    If this is true – it must be stopped.

    With regards to the concerned inmates, they were not converting people – it is reported on telegraph.com.au – (paywall unfortunately, http://goo.gl/1M3Eq5)

    “A Corrective Services spokesman said the number of Muslim inmates at Kariong jail had increased because “the type of inmate had changed”.

    He denied that the three inmates who were moved to other jails were forcing other inmates to convert.

    “The three inmates you refer to were removed from Kariong to other correctional centres after an altercation that had nothing to do with ­religion,” the spokesman said.”

    • Crowgirl

      With all the contradictions that appear in this ideology and the insistence that violent and terrorist behaviour is not consistent with islam – according to what we are told by muslims – it would appear that many muslims are not very good at following the teachings of islam.

      • Abdullah

        Yep – there is a small group of bad bunch who tend to be in the news more often because their story is much more interesting. From my understanding, there are at least 1.7 billion Muslims in the world by now (1 in 5 world population are muslims). You don’t hear the good one as often because they are boring.

        This is what I said to most people who question Islam. If you really believe that Islam teach Muslims bad things – go and read the Quran and Hadith (teaching of the prophet).

        SB put Nadiya as Face of the day few days back.

        http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2016/05/face-day-1020-7/

        She reverted to Islam (she was a Jew) after trying to stop her boyfriend becoming a Muslim.

        • Crowgirl

          The statistics seem to indicate that a large portion of the quiet ones also support the actions of this “bad bunch” you speak of though. I can’t get on board with the idea that it’s just a few. Until islam addresses the misogyny, anti-semitism homophobia and violence in its ideology that seems to be condoned and/or practiced by the majority, you won’t convince me that this ideology is better than my own Christian one.

          I applaud the actions of Nadiya in recognising and praising the actions of Israel. It’s hardly surprising she is inclined to look more favourably on Israel if she is in fact a Jew though. It seems strange that she would convert to an ideology that would have little in common with the one she is praising, but I’m sure she has her reasons.

          • Abdullah

            Nadiya outlined her reason pretty well. “Long story short, my boyfriend converted to Islam, and I did not like that. I set out to find scientific inaccuracies in the Quran, to stop him from being Muslim. All I found was reason, scientific miracles, and truth. I could not find anything wrong! So I did a lot of research and soul-searching, and I ultimately decided to convert. Becoming Muslim made me more passionate about my Jewish heritage, for some reason. I think it was G-d calling me.”

            I believe Islam addresses those issue pretty well. I am not going to convince you but if you are interested to know the truth you just have to read the scripture. I have even suggested in the past – go to the website that slender Islam and look for the quoted references in the Quran yourself.

            The fact that you think Judaism and Islam has little in common, it just shows how much you actually know. Jews fluorished in Muslim lands. I wish you all the best and have a great day.

          • Duchess of Pork

            A very inspirational post from Nadiya thank you Abdullah and equally heartwarming to read the gracious and welcoming responses by so many Israelis. Let us hope that Nadiya is able to push ahead with her purpose to build bridges between Jews and Muslims as she seems very aware of the need to rectify “the serious problem of anti-semitism and anti-Israeli sentiment in the Muslim world.” But further down in Nadiya’s message she states that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews and references Qur’an 5:20-21 and Qur’an 17:104 in support of that belief. Is this the truth that Nadiya has found and do you also share that belief?

          • Abdullah

            Hi Duchess of Pork. I will refrain from commenting on Nadiya’s view as I am not entirely sure what she meant. I wish I can ask her a few questions for clarification. I am not wanting to put my words in her mouth. I tried to look for her other posts but I am not able to see them (I don’t use facebook). As a muslim we are not to spread misinformation as God has commanded us not to do so.

            My suggestion to you:
            1. Why don’t you access the Quran and read it for yourself? The app that I quoted above contains Quran and the exegesis. It will be far better for you to read from the source rather than second hand informatiom from me. You can always go to quran.com and read the whole chapter, the context of that verse etc.

            2. Have a listen to the Rabbi talk in the quoted video above. His views as a scholar in Judaism should be considered and respected.

            3. Jewish people has been living under Muslim rules happily for the last 1400 years. What happen in Palestine is convoluted. Before Israel that we know of today is established, the Jews and Muslims look after each others’ kids in Palestine. Read the historical documents from the British government. Google for Miko Peled – author of The General’s Son. Read his book. He is the grandson of Dr Avraham Katznelson, who signed Israeli Declaration of Independence. He was an Israeli special forces and his niece died from suicide attack.

            Let me know how you go and I am keen to compare notes :-) Email me: [email protected]

            You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. (Quran, 17:36)

        • kereru

          If she was originally a Jew she converted to Islam.

    • Deja Voodoo

      Compare:

      Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. (Quran 9:29)

      With:

      Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ (Luke 10:8-11)

      • Abdullah

        Hi Deja Voodoo :-)

        I am not going to quote from the Bible in reply to yours though I am very familiar with the Bible. I can point the verses in the Bible discussing the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh if you are interested.

        • Crowgirl

          If I may ask another question please, since I seldom get the chance and you seem inclined to respond: how do you reconcile the actual life and behaviour of muhammad in the context of the teachings of allah he is said to reveal? Is he really a good example of the ‘peaceful’, non-violent ideology you believe islam to be? Is his an example to be emulated since he does not appear to have lived his life according to the values you describe, yet is held up to be the ‘perfect’ muslim? How are these contradictions reconciled?

          Am genuinely seeking clarification here. I hope you can help :)

        • kereru

          Let me hazard a guess – the verse where Jesus is telling His disciples that He is about to leave them but that He will send them ‘another Helper’? (John 14:16)

      • Abdullah

        Now that is a very beautiful verse from the Quran. Let me quote you another verse. “Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.” Quran 60:18.

        Is this a contradiction to the verse that you have quoted? Allow me to explain it to you. Quran was revealed in stages and at certain times. The verse that you have quoted came at the time of war. If you happen to read the Quran in entirety, you will find that the chapter is lack of the usual ‘opening’ in the remaining 113 chapters. Oh, it also makes more sense if you read the verses before and after. If North Korea attacks NZ, do we give them this beautiful country to them without fighting? I won’t and I will be at the front line to defend NZ.

        I recall watching BBC and some other news website showing ISIS quoting Quran, attempting to justify their desire to destroy the historical site, Palmyra in Syria. If what they said is true, the pyramids in Egypt or thamud civilization in Saudi would have been destroyed by now.

        TLDR: read the Quran in context :-)

  • shykiwibloke

    This lot are using religion as a pretence for organised crime – long a problem in jails around the world. Perhaps articles such as this will result in a push for real reform in the prison system – not of the go-soft variety, but one where prisoners truly do their time, perhaps even hard labour, but in an environment where it is less likely to be recruited by anyone or taught new criminal techniques.

  • Crowgirl

    Thanks but I already read the Wikipedia biography about him some time ago – that’s why I question this aspect. I was looking for more of an explanation of how practising muslims reconcile that sometimes muhammad lived his life in direct contradiction of the values that many muslims claim to uphold. He was at times not peaceful, and did use force to convert people to islam against their will, he also has a record of advocating slavery – sexual and otherwise. I’ve also heard that there are passages in the quran that advocate violence against one’s wife. You must understand that to an outsider, these contradictions in the life and behaviour of muhammad fly directly in the face of everything muslims claim islam to be. I realize that there are different sects of islam and that many of them eschew large portions of the quran’s teachings, but I do not understand why no criticism is allowed of a man whose behaviour at times was in direct contradiction to the values islam claims to represent.

    For example prophets such as Jesus or Buddha lived their lives in a way that if their followers were to follow their example, no one around them would be hurt or damaged in any way. You can criticize them, but it’s actually hard to find fault in their behaviour.

    Can you say the same for muhammad?

    I’m glad you come to WO and are open about speaking about this. This is a very important topic in the world today.

    • Abdullah

      My pleasure. I believe you are reading lies about Muhammad pbuh :-) One more thing, Muslims believe prophets are human that has been chosen by god – therefore they have high moral values and leading their life with good examples. You will not see or hear any Muslims that will slender Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. They are all equal in the eyes of a Muslim.

      1. At times not peaceful and did use force to convert people to islam against their will – Could you please provide any authentic example of this? I will let a famous non-Muslim historian to answer this for you.

      “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”
      De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross road” (Page 8)

      2. Advocating slavery – I will let the truth speak itself. Go to sunnah.com (authentic collections of the sayings of prophet Muhammad) – use the search function and see what you can find on the matter of slavery. Slavery is already there at the time of Muhammad. He is the one that encourages people who have slaves to let them go. You will see most of his companions will buy the slave whenever they can and let them go for free.

      What is your take of the civil war and slavery in the United States? :-)

      3. Sexual – do you mean the relation between Muhammad and the mother of believer, Aisha R.A?

      • Crowgirl

        Well one could argue that muhammad marrying a 6 year old Aisha was a form of sexual slavery since a 6 year old child cannot consent to sexual relations, and should not be expected to. He did not seem to have a problem with this.

        I read that muhammad started out peacefully trying to spread his message in Mecca – when it didn’t work out there he moved on to Medina and started forcibly converting people. Both the Mecca vs Medina issue and the issue of Aisha as a 6 year old bride of muhammad, are spoken of so widely, that I think that if they were lies, I would have seen them be refuted by now. I haven’t seen any repudiation of these things, and instead I have seen muslims around the world continue the practise of child brides, and forced conversion to islam, or death. There is very little freedom of religion in islamic countries. If all the things we see and hear about islamic cultures that do these things to this day are false, then muhammad and islam have the absolute worst PR of any ideology I’ve ever seen. You’d think that by now with the Internet, literature and so many muslims in the world, that if these things aren’t true, we would have heard about it by now.

        This is not to say that bad things haven’t happened in the name of Christianity, but it is easier to refute these acts because in the example of Christ he neither advocated nor performed violent acts. Added to which, most Christian societies today are peaceful and prosperous, whereas islamic ones seem to exist in this state of constant agitation. Bad stuff happened in the name of Christianity in the past, but not so much in modern times. Slavery existed in the US and it was evil and wrong and it’s hard to believe it ever existed. The Civil War was a terrible thing but it was a righteous war if it ridded the US of the tyranny and evil of slavery. Same with the Nazis, who were evil and tyrannical, and same with daesh. Tyranny must be fought.

        The ideology of islam seems to attract violence and jihadism. I will judge the ideology based on the behaviour of its adherents. I know you will say that violence etc has no place in islam, but how do you explain the violence various muslim sects perpetrate on each other? The subjugation of women? The violence and intolerance shown to homosexuals? It’s very hard to believe the “religion of peace” line when they seem to live their lives in anything but.

        I know these are hard questions, but I’ve always wanted to ask :)

        • Abdullah

          Those are not difficult questions at all :-) A little bit of knowledge around the issue will allow you to understand them.

          I will not do justice trying to answer them all in this limited reply section. I am also not wanting to go off topic. If you drop me an email I’ll reply when I am free – some of your questions are being repeated. I don’t know whether you read my earlier reply or chose to ignore my explanation.

          I will however put this to you to consider:-

          “If all the things we see and hear about islamic cultures that do these things to this day are false, then muhammad and islam have the absolute worst PR of any ideology I’ve ever seen.”

          Do you realize that 20,000 Americans accepted Islam every year? In Auckland alone two people in the space of one week that I knew of accepted Islam. The common theme for them – they read all the bad things about Islam and they decided to go to the source and understand the issue. They are the thinkers and seekers of the knowledge. Nadiya is one of them. I encourage you to go and read everything available out there. Only then you can justify which one is speaking the truth.

          You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. (Quran, 17:36)

          • Crowgirl

            I have not ignored your answers; I have repeated questions if I felt that your answer did not address the point of my question. I’m trying to discover the truth of what you really think.

            The conversion of people to islam might prove that a lot of people are feeling out of control in their lives – surrendering all decisions and personal responsibility to someone else might make them feel they have a degree of control back, or make them feel enlightened – it’s no doubt a similar principle as the idea that all sins are absolved through Jesus. For people in situations where they have made poor choices – such as prison – they may need a system that tells them the ‘correct’ way to do things, how to dress, what to eat etc. Those of us in more control of our decisions would rather have personal freedoms and responsibility. Or it might provide evidence of changing demographics – more people in the world = more muslims etc. I’d be interested in a comparative figure for the other main religions as well.

          • Abdullah

            Hi Crowgirl – you have raised the point about forcing conversion. I have answered this by:

            1. Quote from the Quran that there is “no compulsion in religion”.

            2. I even quoted a NON-MUSLIM scholar (De Lacy O’Leary) who said that this is a lie. The legend of spreading Islam by the sword is a lie. Go and read his book.

            3. If you have listen to some of the video I quoted – using your own LOGIC, if Islam is forcing people to convert, no Christians or Jews would have left in the Muslim country. Listen to what the Jewish Rabbi has to say.

            If you know the art of discussion – you would now respond to my points above. You are not replying to my points or even attempt to rebut them. All you did is to continue stating your ‘personal opinion’. Your opinion on this matter is void because the premise that Islam is forcing anyone to convert is baseless. You will have to prove to me that Islam is forcing people to convert.

            Do you even read my first reply here – I stated this unequivocally that no one should force the religion onto anyone. This is in the scripture.

            I am not here to defend my religion because the truth will always prevail. I am here to have a good discussion based on facts and evidences. :-)

          • Crowgirl

            I did reply to your initial point about forced conversion and made the point that it seems that many muslims are not adhering to this principle and are therefore not good muslims. Does that make them non-muslims in your eyes or does it mean that perhaps many muslims do think forced conversion is a valid muslim practice?

            I also raised the point that according to historical accounts I have read muhammad did force people to convert during his time in Medina. This account is widespread enough that I don’t think it is easily refuted. Here is one article – unfortunately the one I first read on the Wall Street Journal is now pay walled. You saying it is a lie is not backed up by multiple sources on the Internet, only one author who you keep referring to. Regardless the behaviour of islamic groups such as daesh contradicts the idea that it’s a lie. As I said I judge by the behaviour of the adherents, not what I’m told.
            http://www.renewamerica.com/analyses/060630hutchison.htm

            Now you may argue that forced conversion goes against the scripture and that all these things are open to interpretation, but there is no doubt that some muslims seem to believe that forced conversion is their right and duty ie the group daesh forces conversions. There is also very little freedom of religion in islamic countries as any ‘apostasy’ ie non-muslim worship is punishable in many cases by flogging or death. I would argue this applies pressure and force on non-muslims to convert or face severe punishment.

            Lastly, as I questioned before many muslims may think to follow the example of mohammad, despite it being in conflict with scripture, because although it says in the quran that forced conversion is not allowed, if the so-called “perfect man” ie mohammad behaved this way in Medina then it might follow that some muslims think they can take it upon themselves to behave this way as well.

            You have not responded to my comments on this contradiction in scripture vs behaviour of practising muslims other than reiterate the scripture and say my comments on mohammad are a “lie”. That’s not evidence-based argumentation.

            So do you consider all muslims who say they are muslim but then do things that are forbidden in scripture such as forced conversion, to be not muslims then?

          • Abdullah

            1. Please use your logic. If forced conversion exist, why Coptic christians, Assyrian church and the word of the Jewish Rabbi contradict that statement. Again you are not thinking! Just because it is on the internet, it does not mean it is true.

            Just because a type of medicine shows a favorable result in a double blind, randomized study – you still have to go and assess their study method. You will have to be thorough. I am a man of science – I work with facts and evidence.

            Indeed, the most disliked created beings in the Sight of God are the deaf and the dumb who do not use their intellect. (Quran, 8:22)

            2. The scripture is not open for interpretation as you have said. This is the beautiful thing about the Quran. One version of the Quran, wherever you are in the world. It is straight to the point. All you have to do is to read the Quran in entirety.

            Quoting a verse of the Quran out of context is pointless. I have stated this point in my reply above – I am not going to repeat it again.

            3. That apostasy argument you gave is bizarre and does not make sense to me. You are contradicting yourself. A death penalty if you choose to become a Muslim somehow will attract a non-muslim to convert to Islam? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

            Do you know how many non-muslims are in Dubai, Riyadh etc. There are heaps of them. I know many kiwis who work there. After 10 years, they still do not believe in god. Where is YOUR LOGIC? Where is this forced conversion? I go on holiday to Dubai for shopping almost every year. There are heaps of Catholics from the Philiphines who work there. They even have their own church now. Where is your logic? I met a Chinese guy who work in Saudi for fifteen years. He is still a Buddhist despite working there for that long. Where is your logic? Where is this forced conversion that you are saying?

            4. Muhammad by any reliable accounts do not have the same picture that you portrayed. I have challenge you to go to sunnah.com and find any bizarre teaching of the prophet. Please do it (but yet you won’t do it). I asked you before to check about Slavery (yet you did not do that).

            5. Just like any other religion in this world – there will be bad bunch. Family violence in NZ – some of them are Christians, attending Church. Does that make the Christianity teaching is bad?

            Some of the Catcholic priests are now convicted paedophile, does that mean Catholic taught it’s follower to be a paedophile? No, it is NOT the religion fault – it is the follower’s fault. Every time I heard someone mock other religion, I am the first one to tell them to stop. I am fair and just, just like what Islam taught me.

            If Islam really teach you bad things, that 20,000 Americans every year who reverted to Islam must be really stupid. Will you now consider that there is a bad bunch in every group? Will you now be fair and look for the answer? Of course not – so far you have shown no interest to learn the truth.

            The end :-)

          • Crowgirl

            1. “If forced conversion exist, why Coptic christians, Assyrian church and the word of the Jewish Rabbi contradict that statement.” How many of the above religious groups exist in daesh occupied Syria/Iraq now? How many in Saudi Arabia? How did Saudi blogger Raif Badawi come to be sentenced to 1000 lashes for “apostasy”?

            How come Jews have been targeted by terrorists in France in the last couple of years? What about the Easter bombing of Christians in Pakistan (an Islamic country) by the Taliban? How do the muslims in Palestine feel about Israel and the Jews in general? Does this seem like religious tolerance to you or does it seem that any other religion other than islam is not tolerated? Also why do all the islamic sects fight amongst themselves so much if islam is so welcoming to other faiths?

            “Indeed, the most disliked created beings in the Sight of God are the deaf and the dumb who do not use their intellect. (Quran, 8:22)”. You might want to add blind to that because I think you’re being wilfully blind here – I am not blind, deaf or dumb.

            2.”A death penalty if you choose to become a Muslim somehow will attract a non-muslim to convert to Islam? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?”

            You’re misquoting me – the death penalty is for those that don’t convert, as evidenced by Saudi Arabia and Iran which issues death penalties for “apostasy” ie any other faith but islam is not ok. Doesn’t sound like freedom of religion there. Dubai and Saudi Arabia tolerate other faiths so long as they are not flaunted openly. If I went to Saudi Arabia and started preaching about Jesus in the middle of the street, I doubt my head would stay on my shoulders for long. There is also a double standard here – they don’t tolerate any other faith but islam in muslim people ie Raif Badawi is Saudi and a muslim, but because he doesn’t practice it and openly criticises it, he gets 1000 lashes and imprisonment.

            3.I checked your sunnah.com and it says this when I search “slavery”

            “A man who had no other property emancipated six slaves of his at the time of the death. When the Prophet was informed about it, he spoke severely of him. He then called them, divided them into three sections, cast lots among them, and emancipated two and kept four in slavery.”

            Why is muhammad keeping some slaves in slavery when the man who kept them had emancipated them before his death? Why does he speak severely of the man who emancipated them? Is it only ok to manumit slaves so long as they don’t exceed 1/3 of your property? This seems to be what is being said here. There are several instances listed of this, this is just one of them. I look forward to your explanation.

            Here is the link if you don’t believe me:
            http://sunnah.com/abudawud/31/33

            “Just like any other religion in this world – there will be bad bunch.” It kind of seems like islam has cornered the market on this though. They seem to have trouble co-existing with any other faith for a long period. Maybe it was different in the past, but there’s problems everywhere now. I’m not going to list them all, but I’ll give you just one example. In the Philippines which is a Catholic majority country, there is now a problem in Mindanao with islamic groups kidnapping people and ransoming them. Just recently they kidnapped and murdered a Canadian man.

            Here is the story:

            http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/25/asia/philippines-canadian-hostage-john-ridsdel-killed/index.html

            Sure, there is a problem with pedophile priests in the Catholic Church and this has everything to do with the repression of sexual urges in priests and the resulting cover-up by the church’s hierarchy, which is disgusting. However this behaviour is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus, so those priests are not being good Catholics when they don’t uphold Catholic principles. Their poor behaviour is not a reflection on Jesus as Jesus neither condoned nor acted in such a manner as a pedophile.

            However before you criticise the Catholic Church for pedophilia, what do you have to say about the practice of child brides in islam and the on-going lack of rights of women and girls? What do you say about muslim men that marry children? Are the men who marry children just a “bad bunch”, because there’s quite a few of them. Also didn’t muhammad marry Aisha when she was just a small girl thereby setting the example for other muslim men? Oh look, he did:

            “It was narrated from ‘Aishah that the Messenger of Allah married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine.”

            From sunnah.com, here is the link:

            http://sunnah.com/nasai/26
            He apparently also told her that celibacy wasn’t allowed – that’s convenient.
            If these things are not the truth, then what is according to you? As you say there is no room for interpretation of these things.

          • kereru

            De Lacy O’Leary was an orientalist whose historical writings are very detailed and most interesting. I have been reading a chapter entitled ‘How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs’. They weren’t the only influence as they were also influenced by the Buddhists. What he said about the spreading of Islam by the sword is this:

            In the later years of his ministry Muhammad preached his religion to all the Arabs and endeavoured to unite the tribes in one confederacy. “Fight until there is no more civil discord
            and no worship save that of God” (Qur., 2, 189): “fight against those who oppose you, but do not attack first” (Qur., 2, 186), “kill and expel them” (Qur., 2, 187): “when the sacred month is over slay the polytheists, but spare the pagan Arabs who are in league with you” (Qur., 9, 1-4).

            With that in mind, it is not surprising that, after Mohammed’s death, Muslims took that to mean they could continue to spread Islam by the sword.

      • kereru

        Do you know Romeo and Juliet by Shakespeare – their age is 10 and 12?

        By your own admission, a work of fiction. So how does that apply?

  • kereru

    Crowgirl, thanks for your most interesting discussion with Abdullah. I was busy yesterday but I, too, have been struck by the difference between the claims of Islamic apologists and the reality – you know, actions speak louder than words and all that. Maybe it’s because the Qur’an is so contradictory, which would be expected if it had been complied and re-compiled, seemingly according to the whim of various scholars in the early days. Apparently few if any original teachings survive. What makes it worse is that it has no narrative, no common thread such as is found in the Bible, and it isn’t arranged chronologically either. And then there’s the matter of abrogation of the ‘peaceful’ verses written when Mohammed was trying to influence the locals in Mecca (without success), and the extremely violent ones when he moved to Medina and entered his ‘convert or die’ phase which, unfortunately, seems to have prevailed, especially when the Islamic world senses a chance to spread its ideology. That might answer why all Islamic nations have some kind of problem with Christians and other minorities – even with other Muslims who have a slightly different angle on Islam. And, apart from North Korea, nine of the top 10 persecutors are Islamic. All very baffling and I still can’t quite understand this discrepancy. But thanks for trying.

    • Abdullah

      *Chuckled*

      I recently spoke to someone with a respectful doctorate in his name. We go through the points one by one and compare our notes. He has to be silly because after all that reading he did, he has a very different conclusion to what you have stated.

      A lecturer from a local university – he studied Islam for about a year as a side interest, he is now chose to revert to Islam. He must be another silly dude who can’t understand what he read.

      I can go on – oh my, maybe ….

      Have a great day :-)

      • kereru

        What is the respectful doctorate ‘someone’ has? And what are his conclusions after studying Islam as a side interest for about a year? It’s not enough to say he has come to a very different’ conclusion without letting us know the details. How are we to learn what true Islam is?

        Have either of you taken the trouble to research the effect of Islam on communities of non-believers around the world? If not, why not? It’s really not enough to ‘chuckle’ them off when several agencies which devote themselves to advocating for, and providing relief to the persecuted, provide verifiable facts. The only other nations persecuting Christians are Communist and, to some extent, Hindu nationalists.You may not like it, but this is the reality today. Check the link if you don’t believe it.

        Perhaps there are many tens of thousands of misunderstanders of Islam in the world today. In view of these statistics, what are you and your friend going to do about them?

        https://www.opendoors.org.nz/persecution/country profiles/

    • Crowgirl

      I’m trying but still not getting the answers I’m looking for lol. It’s very hard to make these points -which can be quite subtle- on the Internet. If what Abdullah says is true – and I’m sure it is – it does fly in the face of the behaviour of some muslims in the prisons, and in their own societies somewhat.

      Abdullah has been most accommodating in replying, and I fear we are at an impasse, but I had to ask all the same ?

  • one for the road

    Nothing new about crims being converted to Muslim in jails, been going on in US Prisons for a very long time… Part of a bigger plan to implement sharia law…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Islam_in_U.S._prisons

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