Whaleoil General Debate

keep-calm-and-don-t-shoot-the-messenger-3Morning everyone, and welcome to Whaleoil’s daily General Debate post (another one called Backchat will start at 6pm). To participate you’ll need to register a free Disqus account.

There are some rules, and if there is one thing about Whaleoil that you need to know is that these rules are dispassionately and strictly enforced.


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  • R&BAvenger

    Good morning. Looking forward to Cam’a articles at 8am and 9am.
    There are 2 sides to every story and it’s important you now are free to tell yours. It will be a good balance to the half truths reported by the Media Patty yesterday.

    • metalnwood

      I see the front page of nzh and stuff completely devoid of any mention this morning.

  • Woody

    Haven’t heard any blather on the radio this morning about the Panama Papers – what a relief. Has someone woken up to the fact that there is actually no story there.

    • Elmwood

      TV One is still hammering away at it, trying to create a story where there is none. Andea Vance, she justs knows Trusts are wrong.

      • Catriona

        With Andrea Vance’s amazing knowledge of trusts and the why’s and wherefores etc, I’m suggesting she has a career change and take on the mantle of Auditor General. Then we’ll see some monumental and earth-shattering policies by her which will make NZ an even better place to reside. We have a couple of trusts – and she’s telling me we’re dodgy?

      • R&BAvenger

        My other half was in a state of disbelief this morning that it was still being mentioned. Also that there is no coverage of the Panama Papers internationally to any degree and any degree close to the over-egged mess served up here.

      • Woody

        TV doesn’t get turned on here in the morning so no chance of me seeing that.

    • Curly1952

      Noticed that although I did see that Angry is accusing JK of trivialising the issue even though JK has reiterated several times that if there is something to fix it will be fixed. Every time the man opens his mouth he must lose another voter. Soon they will be looking for the missing 1.1M

  • SAM51

    I see angry Andrew going full retard on Cam on PH this morning saying how dangerous he is and warning JK and Judith Collins not to have anything to do with him. He also claimed the Labour Party had nothing to do with TS. Self righteous to the end! Suppose it takes the heat of all his massive failures this work unfortunately- sigh.

    • Keeping Stock

      How many of Andrew Little’s staff have written for The Standard? Mr Little may not know the answer to that question, but I could name at least three.

      • Catriona

        Ok – are you able to name them please? We need to know who the enemy are in the woodpile I believe.

        • Keeping Stock

          They have been named here on numerous occasions. If Andrew Little doesn’t realise who he or his predecessor hired, he’s a pretty poor leader.

      • KGB

        Yep. For Little to state ‘his people’ don’t contribute to TS is either dishonest or he lives in a bubble.

    • Catriona

      Bugger! Didn’t get to see that. Gosh, shouldn’t there be someone warning Little and the Greens that they shouldn’t have anything to do with Hager?

    • Nige.

      This very good. I mean, if you saw on TV, someone (a journalist ) chasing someone down the road hastling them for comment (when you didn’t really understand exactly what it was all about) and generally making a nuisance of them self…. Next thing Mr. 5% is saying that person is “dangerous”…. would that not make you think that this person is probably OK and worth paying attention to?

      I recently left a job and the supervisor was running me down around town. Even to my father. Well I figured if someone like him (he is not so well liked himself) is running me down then that is likely a good thing.

      Get what I mean?

      • SAM51

        Yes I do Nige – and I also get why Mr 5% is doing it – because it does deflect from his own failures – he will just be pleased to try and find someone to put the spotlight on to cover his own failures.

  • Sailor Sam

    I think the story about the Elvis impersonator was the sign that yesterday turned out the way it did.
    With Hager just letting TVNZ and RNZ in on his delusion, it allowed NZME to persue a bit of ridicule and in the process mitigate the KDS attacks.

    • Kiwiracer

      Hopefully now the media will realise how toxic Hagar is and give him a wide berth, but, unfortunately I don’t think that will happen.

  • Cadwallader

    Twyford is still excited about chasing Chinese from the real estate markets of NZ. He cannot bring himself to accept that the 3% sum of foreign buyers is too low and might be as high as 48%. Last night Smalley wouldn’t accept the eminent Tony Alexander’s figure of 6.5% tops. Here we have a fast waltz between the Labour Party and the Media Party. Their purpose is to create a reality for their own prejudices.

    • R&BAvenger

      The Media Party fails to accept anything that matches their predetermined narrative. My partner said before the figures were released that foreigners purchasing properties would be low, even in Auckland. She is a foreign citizen with permanent residence. If Labour and Twyford stay in denial and keep pushing the line in spite of the data, they will continue to go nowhere.
      More data will continue to build a better picture of what’s going on, especially in Auckland.

      • Rebecca

        In fairness, property purchases via a NZ company or Trust with one of these NZ fixers as director or.trustee, will be recorded as a NZ purchase. Not all foreigners purchase in their own name- just as many kiwis buying investment properties will do it via some other vehicle. You only have to attend an auction in Auckland for a property with GV up to about $1.2M to see who is bidding up the prices and buying.

        • KGB

          The Real Estate industry and the data explain these ‘Chinese looking faces’ are residents.
          It makes absolute sense that well funded immigrants of all races are prevalent in the Auckland housing market.
          It is easier to identify an Asian looking face than a SA, an Aussie, an Englishman, or an America.

          • Rebecca

            “Tax” residents, not necessarily home residents. Anybody in the world can pay $45 to set up a NZ company and ask the IRD for a tax number. Voila, NZ tax residency. Or a trust with an IRD number and professional fixer trustee to hide yourself completely.

          • Seriously?

            That is not at all how it works.

          • Rebecca

            That’s exactly how it works. Bearing in mind that you can’t legally export more than US$50K annually from China, there are local law firms earning juicy fees providing exactly these sorts of services.

          • Seriously?

            A company is treated as an overseas entity if 25% or more of is shares are owned by an overseas person, or the control of the board or voting right is so held. In that way a minority interest may never the less make it a foreign entity for the purpose of these numbers.

            The fact the company is incorporated here doesn’t alter that.

            The relevant definition they use is from the Overseas Investment Act, section 7, here is a link to it: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2005/0082/latest/DLM357794.html

          • Rebecca

            LINZ excluded ALL Trusts and company purchases from its figures if I read correctly.

          • Seriously?

            I see what you mean, and apologize. You are right that it seems LINZ have tried to remove Trusts and Companies from the reported figures.

            I know the conveyancing staff at my work pull their hair out over the detail about where a trust or a company is or isn’t a foreign person for the purposes of reporting – it is indeed far from straight forward so LINZ may be right to be a little skeptical of those numbers until it beds in.

          • Rebecca

            Actually I agree with you 100% that they should have used the overseas investment act definitions.

            Instead, here’s the LINZ questionnaire: http://www.linz.govt.nz/system/files_force/media/pages-attachments/Land%20transfer%20tax%20statement.pdf?download=1

            Unless the Ltd has applied for a foreign tax number as well as an IRD number, it gets counted in the LINZ reports as a NZ tax resident.

            At a time when up to 36% of purchasers in Sydney come from one foreign nation, it seems that NZ has come up with a recording method that chops out large chunks of purchases because of process flaws and may be completely meaningless.

          • Seriously?

            In most cases assets don’t need to move, it is the ownership of them that moves. This idea that there are billions of dollars worth assets flowing into NZ to be held by these Trusts is a misunderstanding of how it works.

            China or the like might be an exception to that, as you would want to make sure the asset was outside the country, but I think here would be a very poor choice of where to put it (in the physical sense). Even the dodgy money, of which I suspect there is some, is probably in a bank in Switzerland or the like, even if ownership of the account had been given to trustees of a trust.

          • Rebecca

            Not sure of the relevance of these truisms. If you have a reason to vest your property in a trust or company- then you’re excluded from the LINZ figures about residency or citizenship purchases. Before concluding anything, I’d want to see how many property purchases this involves.

          • Tom

            But would those companies have Chinese names to justify labours claimed 36%?

          • Rebecca

            Kim Jong-un could set up “Tom and Rebecca Trust” via a NZ fixer, acquire an IRD number, and then be classified as a NZ tax resident purchasing every property for sale in Auckland.

          • KGB

            But you assume the numbers are much greater without basis or fact. Labour assert those loopholes increase numbers up to 48% !!! That’s just nuts.
            Considering the Asian population explosion in Auckland to approximately 400k, it makes perfect sense to me. 2001-151,644. 2013-307,233. They all want a house and they are willing to pay for it.
            I am no expert in the field at all and don’t pretend to be. I simply continue to defend those blamed for the housing market because it’s discriminating and hysterical.
            While NZ is being distracted by Chinese sounding names, AC continue to fuel the fire.
            Though I seldom agree with Fran O, she is right to suggest sending a Commissioner into AC is essential.
            Edit – missed word

          • Rebecca

            I assume nothing. Especially when I read that “LINZ has removed trust companies and businesses for a clearer picture.” The “clearer picture” excludes who knows what.

        • Seriously?

          They use the Overseas Investment Act definitions to determine whether a trust or a company is a foreign entity or not, and it is not as simplistic as where it is set up.

          If a Trust of 25% or more controlled by (including the person / people with the power to appoint trustees) an overseas person then it is an overseas entity itself. It is not simply about where the trustees live.

          Likewise if a company is 25% or more owned or controlled by an overseas person then it.

          The definitions tend to over include bodies as overseas entities, rather than to exclude.

          • Rebecca

            But the definition in the figures clearly involves “tax” residency. Not home residency. A foreign controlled entity can be a NZ tax resident and actually must be if it wants to rent out its properties.

    • Isherman

      He’s put himself between a rock and a hard place. Questioning the integrity of the LINZ figures is just code for “I’m not going to like what the numbers end up saying”, so he feels he needs to attack them. On the other hand, questioning data when you have just finished scanning lists of names that can only point to ethnicity and say nothing of Nationality is as big as a facepalm as you could ever hope to avoid.
      While the numbers are admittedly incomplete at the moment, its almost impossible to see the 3% suddenly jump into dramatically higher double digit figures, and even if it panned out to be 8-10% after a year of monitoring, at very worst its simply ‘a’ contributing factor to price inflation, not the principle cause of it. Good luck to him now figuring out how to refocus on the supply issue while drawing a clean line under the blatant dog whistle politics of the race card.

      • Seriously?

        Labour must be spewing about this. 3% (4 in Auckland).

        They record tax residence. As such they include all people normally resident overseas. That is all “foreign” buyers, including New Zealand citizen who reside oversea but purchase a property. Including them may inflate the number.

        Also, Labour refused to look at the net figure. In the period for which records were kept some 1600 homes were purchased by foreign tax residents (or where they were one of the purchasers), but at the same time some homes were sold by foreign tax residents (or where they were one of the vendors). What was the difference? One home.

        Yes, at the end of the period only one more home was owned by foreign tax residents than at the start. One.

        If key did have a hint at these numbers in advance (as Labour tell us he did) then he has played them well and let them paint themselves into a corner.

        • Tom

          That35foreigners data shows , of thear 3% about 1/3rd are chinese! So Labours “facts” are even further out.

    • Tom

      Seems “Sociaist International” Call Labour out on Chinese housing figures. Google and see, they sound like right wing on this.

  • wilson

    Three questions for me
    1 what would James Shaw say if John key had a family trust, based in England.
    2 as there isn’t 30% of foreign investors buying our houses. Will labour now support the tappa.
    3 will Andrew little ban the 93%-96% of new Zealanders buying investment properties.

    • Cadwallader

      1 He’d be incandescent with self-righteous indignation.
      2 Not with Little Angry being temporarily at the tiller.
      3 If he could yes he would.

      When Angry disclosed his minimal assets the other day it recorded a paucity of personal planning (why bother when gummint will do it for you?) and financial literacy. His starting point appears to be waging war on capital accretion and self-determination.

    • Eiselmann

      Righty wrongy lefty righty , its how the left explain what would appear to be a contrary stance on various issues

      John Key has a family trust in England…hes a tax evader , who choices not to support the kiwi worker and makes one wonder what other trusts he has around the world and how many trusts held by criminals and the 1 percent in this country he has set up . He should show some guts and come clean

      Mojo Mathers has a family trust in England…its not foreign, its family not business related, its wrong to single her out…she’s deaf by the way and its all Keys fault anyway.

      Righty wrongy lefty righty hyprocrisy 101

      • Bryan

        what trust in england ? then of course his father was an englishman and how you make the stretch between having a family trust and automatically a tax evader beats me he maybe like Mojo have a old family trust that would pay the UK tax in the country in which the interest is earned, which is all perfectly legal

        • Eiselmann

          Um I think you may have missed the sarcasm along with the righty wrongy lefty righty meaning. Suffice it to say my reply was prompted by this

          1 what would James Shaw say if John key had a family trust, based in England

          …. in the first post in this thread and imagined James Shaw’s likely response.

  • MarcWills

    The view of the Red Radio / TVONE KDS Bunker this morning:

    I’m amazed that they even managed to make KDC’s “moment of truth” seem like an earth shattering announcement in comparison. How pathetic was that? They should all be put onto performance pay contracts to save the taxpayers from this waste.

  • Intrigued

    Unbelievably tenuous and misleading headlines are the go for Red Radio it seems to further sully our international reputation.
    “US fugitive hid assets in NZ – reports” with the story about a “flamboyant Internet gambling tycoon”. Here’s the rub:
    “The documents show a company, Elegant Step Group Limited, was set up by Ayre – under the name Calvin Wilson – and his sister Anita Rose Ayre and eventually all shares in that were shifted to Incom Trustees Limited, which itself was a trustee of a New Zealand trust called Adaman Trust.”

    “Which itself was a trustee of a New Zealand trust.” !!! How does that prove the headline? It doesn’t! Incom Trustees Limited could be a perfectly legitimate corporate trustee. Theassets aren’t hidden in NZ at all. There’s nothing in the article to even prove that the NZ-based AdamanTrust is itself linked with Ayre. Just seen TV3 repeating it too.
    Clearly these journalists don’t understand how trusts work.
    The jolt of all this is Greenpeace and Amnesty International have the shoe on the other foot and are now whinging about Key’s comments in parliament yesterday that they are in the Panama Papers too. We have no proof of what they are saying that they are the innocent beneficiaries of trusts set up by others! Yet we are to somehow be expected to suspend logical rational judgments based on fact and believe only what these idiot journalists in the Hagerlot will have us believe. Give me strength! I’ve had enough of this insane rubbish!
    Time to move on…!


    • Huia

      If I had a private trust fund and had my information illegally stolen, then published by an unscrupulous, amoral bunch of media hacks, I would be throwing the book at them for breaching my privacy.
      What business is it of anyone else’s? when the only crimes committed are by the finger pointing, greedy swine’s in the media.

  • Huia

    I gave in. (I am such a weakling).
    I looked at the Herald page to see how they were beating the Panama Papers drum today and what fresh Earth shattering breakthroughs have been made.
    After the trumpet blowing and Nicky “Haggards” mean, little rat face all over the news this week promising even greater revelations than are in the Bible.
    Zip. Zilch. Nada.
    Apparently a damp squib can come back and bite you on the chubby bits if you make much ado about nothing.
    But thank God I looked, otherwise I would never have known that Sharon and Ozzy Osbourne had split up.
    Things like that really matter on the world news circuit obviously.

  • JustanObserver

    It seems NZ’s MSM are all in for NoTW style news-making.
    Use illegal methods to prove that nothing illegal has transpired …
    Cam’s emails being Hacked then published
    HDPA breaking laws to get a firearm
    Stolen Panama papers scoured by the righteous crusaders
    When will we discover they have been tapping mobile calls?

  • axeman

    Auckland is choking itself to death with its traffic and infrastructural issues.
    Seriously if I was a business in Auckland I would look to the regions to relocate.
    Cheaper land & building costs, high speed internet, Efficient Port, stable work force, ease of transport and no lost productivity by stuck in traffic or a motorway because a digger fell off. Local Councils that will help and work with you to get employment back to their towns & cities.

    • JustTinkering

      The only negative with this idea is that these same friendly local councils charge rates that are similar and often much higher than Auckland Council.

      • axeman

        May be can’t say for sure one way or the other,however it would seem to me that the councils are open for business and that overall i reckon that any business that relocated would find a nice healthy increase to their bottom line.

    • Mark

      The solution is quite simple AT needs to give us back our roads,remove the cycle & bus lanes & ramp lights. Remove the buses also,turn the rail into roads & build more roads.

  • Sally

    Just caught up with all yesterday’s posts and what an exiting day you all had but there was something missing. I even went searching elsewhere as well but zilch. I thought that according to those who suffer from a severe strain of KDS that Key was going to resign. They must be gutted.

    • Seriously?

      Unlike Labour leaders, I’m sure Key will resign… perhaps not for quite some time yet, but I cannot foresee any attempt to stab him in the back.

      It must be quite a novel concept for Labour to try and get their heads around.

  • rangitoto

    Just saw a tweet saying that Little’s press secretary Sarah Stuart has resigned. I was surprised she took the job on in the first place.

    • MaryLou

      I wonder if all this plus the staggering “Asian Invasion” stats was just the last straw. Hard to make a silk purse out of a sows’ ear…

    • Isherman

      Being Mr Little Press Sec is a ‘job’?
      When your brief is to present two ‘positive news stories per week’ by Mr 7 it’s more like Mission Impossible I would have thought.

    • shykiwibloke

      I wonder what labour could have announced to upset her. Let’s see: if she works for a living, has kids that want a better education than a state run school, involved in a family trust has a family member or friend with a chinky sounding name, has lawyer in the family, owns a house in Auckland that is appreciating in value, owns shares, or her kiwi saver does, has seen tha state of labours coffers, is embarrassed when polling companies aren’t paid on time, golly, Not many people would be left, and some of those may not get on with other staff such as Matt? Just sayin.

  • MaryLou

    Gosh I had to laugh last night. I went to the “dark side” to see how current events were being reported over there. Turns out a Blog has had an introspective moment and concluded they are not a safe place for women. Just like Labour, thy ought to have a good look at how the other side does it, because my completely unrigorous but observational view is that Whaleoil has pretty much achieved gender parity – and that’s without a quota.

  • Aucky

    Angry Andy’s press secretary has just resigned after twelve months in the job.

    I wonder why?

    Ed: Oops sorry rangitoto. Just noticed your post below.

    • PhantomsDoc

      You can only attempt to train a gerbil for so long before accepting defeat???

  • Karma

    I see on Facebook that Rotorua Labour will be hosting Andrew Little and Phil Twyford this coming Friday, seemingly at Tamati’s bar. Could they have a picked a less inspiring picture of angry Andy.

    • Huia

      I wonder if choosing Tama Iti’s bar is a good idea at this time when Tama was so involved with the individual who is Rawshark.
      Are Labour showing solidarity to their informers and hackers by being seen supporting their cohorts business’s.
      Personally I’d be distancing myself from any association with the Te Urewera Four and Rawshark associates, and supporting a neutral business whilst all this hacking business was so fresh.

      • Holdonamo

        I think they were referring to Tamati Coffey’s bar…

        • Huia

          I really must read the fine print. Thanks for that Holdonamo.

    • Seriously?

      Friday the 13th, seems appropriate.

    • FornaK

      That is him smiling. That’s as good as it gets for Mr A. Little.

  • MaryLou

    Well, there’s a sure fire way of getting everyone’s attention in a hurry, shout “Allahu Akbar!” in the middle of a shopping mall. Good ole’ UK Police:


  • rangitoto

    I just looked up what is going on in the US primaries. I haven’t taken a lot of interest in the preliminary round of US elections before but that is part of the Trump factor. One thing that surprises me is that the GOP are still holding elections in the remaining states with Trump as the only candidate. I also see that Sanders is continuing to do well against Clinton, although he is apparently sunk by Clinton’s “super delegates” whatever that is. Their system seems incredibly weird to me.

    • Crowgirl

      Trump had already won West Virginia. Cruz is threatening to re-enter the race if he wins Nebraska. It’s not over till Trump meets the delegate threshold.

  • shykiwibloke

    Fresh from Fraser House – Labour have summoned Sun Tzu for some battle advice ahead of tomorrow:-

    Mr Little – We cannot enter into alliances until we are acquainted with the designs of our neighbours.
    Well that’s dumb for a start – the Greens are weird, and who can predict Winston?
    Maneuvering with an army is advantageous; with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous.
    ‘Yeah well as revolting as they may be – we need the media multitudes’
    The art of using your caucus is this:
    ……When ten to the enemy’s one, surround him;
    ‘Sorry, I don’t have that many party members let alone pet reporters and MPs’
    ……When five times his strength, attack him;
    ‘Nope. Not even close. Would a fat German help?’
    ……If double his strength, divide him;
    ‘I wouldn’t be asking for advice if I had that luxury’
    ……If equally matched you may engage him;
    ‘Look – we are up the proverbial creek you little creep. I have to do something or I will be history’
    ……If weaker numerically, be capable of withdrawing;
    ‘Say what? I didn’t spend years in the union movement avoiding a fight!’
    ……And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him,
    ‘You saying I should HIDE?’
    ……….for a small force is but booty for one more powerful.”
    ‘Too right. I’m off for a head on attack. You’re an idiot. Phil Twyford will show you out.’

    ……….The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

    ‘Phil – get him out of here and make sure he hasn’t bought a house. He will ruin everything!’

    – Sun Tzu, the Art of War quotes
    (sent into Cam early this week. he has been understandably busy, so thought it would give a few of you a bit of a mid-week laugh.)