Whaleoil General Debate

keep-calm-and-don-t-shoot-the-messenger-3Morning everyone, and welcome to Whaleoil’s daily General Debate post (another one called Backchat will start at 6pm). To participate you’ll need to register a free Disqus account.

There are some rules, and if there is one thing about Whaleoil that you need to know is that these rules are dispassionately and strictly enforced.

 


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  • Nige.

    Zb actually played a sound clip from Donald Trump saying, “We have an Islamic terrorist problem”.

    Knock me down.

  • Cadwallader

    It was Ms Barry’s last morning with Paul Henry on Live today. She openly dissed the entire US electorate and particularly the Republican Party, expressed outrage that Trump seems to hold the numbers to go head to head with the Clintons and declared Johnny Depp is mad. It is a stretch for somebody so deep in self-aggrandisement and self-importance to question anyone’s sanity. Yet another Leftie repeater bites the dust. Sadly her place will be taken by another, then another etc…

    • Dan

      It seems two Hillarys bashing Trump and two Hillarys leaving the scene. One now and thw other shortly if indicted

      • Cadwallader

        Yes indeed: “Knock Knock!”
        Who’s there?
        “Hillary”
        Hillary who?
        “I have forgotten.”

    • pisces8284

      I trust Newshub will remember to give Hilary a bunch of flowers on the way out

      • R&BAvenger

        They should also make sure it’s the same bunch of fowers that the others got.

        • Dave

          No, not quite the same, I would suggest they are wilted, and as bitter and twisted as an old vine, more of a match to her. And to think I quite liked her until she opened her mouth and moaned and groaned, a classless and deamening act.

        • Ruahine

          Not Poison Ivy I hope.

      • Wheninrome

        If they go back to the original florist whose flowers were described by one of the recipients as a less than acceptable present it won’t be much of a bunch probably contain yesterday’s flowers a bit like the intended recipient.

    • Nige.

      All these champions of democracy who don’t like who the people want

    • KGB

      Not my Johnny Depp ?
      Hilary goes too far.

      • Crowgirl

        Yes Johnny has lost it a bit of late – getting divorced as well now.

        • Mick Ie

          I have always consider Johnny a genius actor and I heard somewhere years ago, there is a fine line between genius and insanity.

          • Crowgirl

            I’ve always loved him, but he’s sort of gone off the rails a bit and become a bit of a cliche now. Marrying someone so much younger and then seeming to be off his head all the time, and then that palaver over his dogs in Australia and calling Joyce “a tomato” the other day – juvenile and undignified from someone who has usually been so cool.

        • KGB

          There’s hope !!!

        • Miss McGerkinshaw

          Much as I love him not so sure he ever had it. But then again isn’t that why (we?) love him?

          • Crowgirl

            He’s always been a bit nutty but I’m not a fan of the recent immature behaviour he’s been exhibiting.

          • Miss McGerkinshaw

            Don’t keep up with the ins and outs of the celebs any more so not aware – thank goodness can remember the ‘good old’ days of Mr Depp! :-)

  • stephen2d

    It was the second time recently I’ve noticed the “password protected content” article on WO. Am I missing something or should I not ask? Just curious.

    • MaryLou

      Pete always puts the password somewhere in Backchat – usually pretty early on.

    • There will never be anything important behind the passwords. It will be something unusual, something that some people will think was worth it and others will find abhorrent. The safe way is to ignore it. Or, you can go in and bitch about it like some idiots do. On a right blog no less. When they took the personal choice to look. /sigh

      Last night’s is a video of a working girl offering a client some business for a remarkably low amount of money, but she’s eating while she’s making the offer. What she is proposing to do for the business transaction and what she is eating at the time is relevant to the potential customer, who isn’t into pain.

      • stephen2d

        Ha! I must watch it after that description :)

      • Jonathon Stone

        I believe the working girl is actually British actor Zawe Ashton, who is a bit of a fan of seemingly inadvertent comedy

      • Dave

        It always amazes me, how you put something up, (could be anywhere in life) and advise it could be controversial, offensive / needs judgement / discretion / or whatever. YOu hide a password, people are advised to look only if they really want to, they look, then they get upset / offended.

        Um, pardon me for being thick, couldn’t they just have heeded the cautions and not looked?

        • Exactly. It doesn’t please me.

    • KGB

      Take my hand and join me on my couch of “couldn’t figure it out either.”

  • Geordie

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/budget-2016/80439506/lack-of-housing-initiatives-in-budget-making-auckland-uninhabitable-for-young-people

    As usual no mention that the poor lawyer who can’t afford a house, works for the Salvation Army Social policy and Parliamentary Unit.

    • Platinum Fox

      It may be news to her that there have been instances in the past where friends have combined their resources to buy a property together. While she and her contemporaries are considering doing so and at the personal level it may represent rethinking how they live it is by no means a new concept.
      The phenomenon of people taking in flatmates in order to make their mortgage payments more achievable has been around for decades. The only difference with friends sharing ownership of a property is that the benefits and costs of ownership are shared among the occupants rather than respectively accruing to or being the responsibility of an individual.

  • STAG

    Interesting discussion this morning with some guys at work post budget. Turn political as these things tend to do.

    Bloke says he should be a Labour supporter but can’t, would vote for Angry, likes him even but the rest are unelectable.

    Winston is the big winner, as he is the only one with decent immigration policy, someone else said Winnie would get his previous National vote.

    Times a changing, let’s hope to quote the ex labour man “That lying so and so John Key” has his pollster out and about and starts to listen to the country.

    • R&BAvenger

      So some guy is going to vote for Winston, because he has a decent immigration policy? That lying so and so John Key – did he give any examples. Sounds like a typical knee-jerk voter, light on information and perspective.

      It’s the economy, stupid. A steady hand on the economic tiller has gotten us thus far. Peters has a track record of being economical with the ‘truth’ and being a wrecker when in government. Sounds like people will cut off their nose to spite their face.

      You can’t fix stupid.

      • KGB

        The one policy of NZF that is spot on is immigration age. 10 years is not an acceptable level of tax contribution, especially when they are eligible for welfare after 5 years. 45, or 20 years is about right.
        Would it make me vote NZF? Heck no. But Winston is right.
        National need to realise Winston’s a threat and pinch this policy :)
        Edit -sp

        • Miss McGerkinshaw

          “National need to realise Winston’s a threat and pinch this policy.”

          Agree, hopefully they learned their lesson in Northland and don’t take his threat too lightly.

      • STAG

        Of course not, rthe Panama Papers came up, general muttering about it not being good rich people didn’t pay tax, it was pointed out that they didn’t own NZ any tax, a lost cause, he just didn’t or wouldn’t understand. JK, lying as he has trusts, foreign ones no less. I tried to explain what a “blind trust” was and why a person might have one, a waste of time. But he gets a vote just like you and me.

  • R&BAvenger

    More sense from Tony Alexander in his latest Weekly Overview. A good kick in the slats to the opposition on Housing. Twyford, are you reading??

    “It is popular amongst those who fail to understand the factors pushing Auckland house prices higher and/or have for years incorrectly predicted big declines, to blame speculators for the surge in prices.
    However grouping all investors into the speculators’ camp gives an incorrect guide to the true make-up of the many people purchasing properties to rent out.”

    Different groups of people are buying properties, the so=called ‘Rentvestors’, the older folks looking for a higher return on investment than bank deposits, people acting on the need to build wealth for their retirement amd people pursuing housing investment as a business.

    “It would be great to have data in hand telling us the roles being played by these four groups of investors along with foreign buyers and true buy and flick speculators targeted by the two year bright line test which clearly is having no sustained measurable impact. Without such data the chances that policy can be
    developed and effectively implemented so that goals around targets like home ownership, social housing provision, and financial system stability can be met are very small – speculative in fact. We need data, not kneejerk analysis and potentially faulty policies.”

    https://feedback.bnz.co.nz/mail/link/3zwil0OX_mtqQIA1b927rQ You can subcribe to regular updates from him at this link.

    It’s another sound analysis from him, including possible solution(s).

  • Sailor Sam

    So Winston does not like the increases in taxes on cigarettes as it will create more child poverty and hunger because parents will keep smoking to the detriment of buying food for their kids.
    Just keep pandering to drop-kicks and no-hopiers Winnie, you will take votes from a little party.
    The apartheid party’s Flavell and Fox won’t complain, or will they?

    • kehua

      It was the Maori Party that pushed the anti-smoking agenda and are taking credit for the increased tax on tobacco products.

      • D.Dave

        I didn’t much care for the devisive politics of Turiana Turia, but she is one of very few Maori leaders who has tried to make a significant difference to “our People”, as she called them. Maoridom, as a group should be applauding the increase in the cost of cancer sticks. Maybe many more will cease the disgusting smoking habit and put some money bsck in to their families.

    • Tom

      The aim is to stop smoking alltogether just think how much better off the poor will be if they save what they are currently spending on fags!

    • Wheninrome

      Winnie could give up smoking if he is that concerned.

  • Macca

    So there’s two specialists offering exactly the same hip operation, one for 25k and the other for 50k. Labour, the Greens, NZF and all their shills in the media just can’t get their head around the concept that a prudent spender (National), would go for the cheaper surgeon getting the same result at hAlf the price.

    I despair that the critics and the left are unable to comprehend that the amount one spends has no correlation with the value of the end result. Labour had massively top heavy departments in health with 2/3’s of the staff pushing paper in the office on huge salaries and now that National have seemingly reversed that trend and hugely increased efficiency, even though they’re getting twice the bang for the taxpayers buck by spending the same amount, apparently it’s not enough! Go figure.

    • JustanObserver

      All that Labour, the Greens & Winnie would achieve are more better-paid specialists.
      I led 300+ staff for a Construction Company, our obsession was to ‘push’ the market as far as it could stand . . . To draw as much money from Councils & Govt procurement as we could.
      We had a term for it . . . We wanted to ‘Avoid leaving Revenue in the Market’.
      This happens all the time, far less so under National, but it was ‘Rife’ under Labour.

    • JustTinkering

      My ‘private’ hip replacement last year with a top Auckland surgeon was 27k. 7k paid by me and the balance by Sthn Cross. What no one recognises as that those of us who pay our way are subsidising many others on the DHB scheme. Ther’s no excuse for price gouging in the public system.

  • Wheninrome

    John Key sounds like a man who means business in this quote:

    “It’s no longer a matter of choice or debate for those councils – land will be zoned residential and developed in quantities sufficient to meet demand. Period.”
    A strong statement not just aimed at Auckland.

    • Disinfectant

      Councils have deliberately restricted the supply of land to maintain therr own massive property portfolio values.

      Now they might need to watch their spending to preserve their credit ratings when their property values readjust.

  • Jude

  • shykiwibloke

    Remember all the hoohaa about how Foxconn( the Chineese co making Apples devices and others) was treating its workers bad a year or so ago? Seems they have jumped from 19th century labour practices to 21st century and bypassed all those union years. They have just replaced 50,000 (yes fifty thousand) workers with robots.
    Fascinating on so many levels.
    http://www.engadget.com/2016/05/25/foxconn-replaces-60000-humans-workers-with-robots/

  • Old Kiwi

    Suspect Breakfast piece on bowel cancer screening was obviously put together earlier to do a hit on Govt when screening was not increased in the budget. Damn – they show it ( probably in part) anyway. Started typing to early – at end they admit it was recorded earlier. Wasted effort – good.

  • kehua

    Just heard Donald Trump hits the magic 1237 number, Oh Dear hahaha this will have a few twisted nickers around the media world.

    • Disinfectant

      Bring back the Media works luvvies for just one day so se can all enjoy the entertainment.

  • spanishbride

    So we got contacted by the HRC about our cartoon. They have asked us if we are open to Mediation. I’m thinking how can this be mediated? I thought the HRC would make a decision based on reason and logic and facts but they want to throw one of us in the ring with a number of complainants to see if we can sort it out.
    One of the complaints was that the cartoon insulted the Maori word Moko yet here is an Evan’s cartoon that insults the word Mana.

    • Greg M

      My gut feeling is to tell them to get stuffed. They seem to have made their mind up already and playing their silly game will only validate their existence.

      • Bryan

        yep and quote Winston “get stuffed”

    • Quinton Hogg

      Mediate what?
      I can’t see anything but someone who wants to use process to shut down debate.

      • OneTrack

        Lefties against freedom of speech. That has never happened before.

    • Disinfectant

      Run a poll on here and send the results to the HRC.

      There is also such a thing as s malicious and spurious complaint.

      • spanishbride

        Out of an audience of 250,000+ we hurt the feelings apparently of 11 people.

        • hookerphil

          I make that 0.000044% of the readership.

        • JEL51

          I wonder, out of that 11, how many are in cushy $Tax funded jobs which we contribute to.

          • Dave

            I think you will find the original complainant was a Public Health official, who also holds a senior position in the Maori Party. Add to that Marama Fox, and a few more industrial grade troughers, so yes, living off Tax Payers dollars mostly.

        • Disinfectant

          Buy them an ice cream each and tell them that it will make them feel better.

        • Greg M

          11 people have hurty feelings? Lift your game SB, not too long ago the blog would have upset 1100 people in one go. Please try harder. :-)

          • Dave

            With you there Greg, i suggest SB go back, look at the number of Recommendations the Cartoon received, then the articles on little Moko’s beating and death, it might be a controversial issue, but it is FACTUAL, he and many many before him, have been beaten senseless by their Maori caregivers or parents, to qualify that, the stat, 5 times more likely…….

          • JohnO

            If WO is not careful it will be downgraded from “attack blog” to “political blog” by the MSM if this style continues.

        • Huia

          I bet I can list them,
          Wrongly Wrongson, Hagar the terribly thin, Dotty the terribly large, Hackers anonymous and so on and so forth.

          • Dave

            One particular high ranking Maori rights female, i wont name her, but she is in my opinion the main complainant, along with her hangers on. no proof of this but I’m certain.

        • sheppy

          Only 11, the Twitter outrage department must have had a bad day! Maybe the permanently outraged are discovering it’s bad for their health.
          Presumably mediation will involve only promising to publish cartoons of lefty causes and kittens in future, with nothing ever mentioned of problems inherent in certain sections of society

        • KGB

          A support crew of at least 12 unhurty feelings seems appropriate then.
          Sing out if you want to play a numbers game. I can be a number. ?

    • Tom

      Best play the game to your rules , not theirs!

      • spanishbride

        I want to ask what the penalty is if we are found guilty of the crime of publishing a political cartoon in a democratic country.Has anyone ever been punished for the crime of drawing a cartoon apart from the Charlie Hebdo guys massacred by Islamic critics?

    • niggly

      If you go to mediation I’m sure your command of logic and facts (as evidenced by your articles) will “slay” the critics!

      Could be an interesting experience (to write about later) assuming they don’t put a gagging order on you guys (no doubt the critics will then try some silencing stunt once they are rebutted, to hide their failings etc).

      • Seriously?

        Meditations are usually on a confidential and without prejudice basis. Being frank in them is a part of what makes them work, and a lack of confidentiality inhibits that.

    • JEL51

      Perhaps respond by asking as someone here on WO did… “Does this request have any connection to the Human Rights of the little boy featured in that cartoon?” See how they react to that.

    • Disinfectant

      If you are bring asked s to whether you are open to mediation, then the HRC has already found against you.

      That being the case, I would lay a complaint against the HRC for failing to engage in a fair process.

      • Dave

        I believe you are 100% correct, please see the link. I quote selected text from that link.

        “If your complaint is accepted, we will talk to you about how to progress it. Our complaints process is flexible, free and confidential. We work with you to try and resolve the issue through informal methods, LIKE PHONING THE OTHER PARTY”.

        https://www.hrc.co.nz/enquiries-and-complaints/how-make-complaint/

        I would strongly suggest a request for the HRC’s written policy on complaints handling, and at what stage they are obliged to contact you, and then ask WHY they are asking for mediation without first even getting the writers opinion on what was going on, the entire process give me the ….. Diarrhea.

        IF, you then decide to go to mediation, do so on your terms, timeframe, place, and take as many as possible, the supporters of the article, BoomSlang, and so on, plus all the other cartoons and articles on the subject.

        I still maintain the Complainant has “hurty feelings” from being the subject of prior articles on this very subject, and used this as a vehicle to have a shot at WO.

        If this cartoon is so objectionable, then WHY has the complainant NOT had a shot at so many other cartoons on the subject, oh yeah, those ones were not on WO.

        Besides, every time they ask for something, as is your policy to place complaints in the open, it just highlights the issues once again,

        • Seriously?

          I think you are conflating accepting the complaint as being lodged correctly in a procedural sense, with accepting it’s merits.

          I’m sure they get plenty that don’t pass the first muster and are discarded promptly (perhaps without those being complained about even knowing they were filed). I wouldn’t read anything more into the “acceptance” than that complainant has complained to the right person about a subject over which HRC has (or may have) jurisdiction.

    • Seriously?

      Apart from time, there is nothing to lose by attending mediation and there may be plenty to gain. If you go to mediation you don’t have to agree to solution you don’t want to. You don’t have to agree to anything at all.

      The bottom line is often that by refusing to go to mediation you may appear unreasonable to the ultimate decision maker. That can sometimes resound in costs awards (either explicitly or not), but also a predisposition against you come their actual determination of the complaint.

      I’ve been a part of many meditations, and when run well they can resolve things you’d doubt were open to resolution. Sometimes it is just about a party feeling that the other side understands their concerns, even if they don’t agree with them. In this case, it might be about the complainants understanding your perspective – why it was you thought it was a cartoon worth publishing.

      • Disinfectant

        First of all the Complainants should be asked if they agree to mediation and their answer sent to the Respondent.

        At that point the Respondent can decide if they agree to mediation or not.

        I once refused to go to mediation in an employment issue. I was eventually ordered to, resulting in a fishing exercise for the employees lawyer for the subsequent Employment Court hearing.

        • MaryLou

          Involving lawyers doesn’t sound like good faith mediation…

          • Huia

            Having Lawyer with you sounds like sound advice to me if only to sit there and take notes.
            These things are usually loaded in the complainants favour so you need to take care of your side of things.

        • Sailor Sam

          Yes who is going to be party to this mediation?
          Just you and the HRC, or you and the complainant with the HRC mediating?
          If it is just you and the HRC then there still needs a third party to be the mediator.
          Just ask them the question – mediation between who?

        • Seriously?

          No doubt both sides are being asked about it.

          Employment cases are somewhat unusual in that mediation can be directed (in most contexts mediation is a consensual process), but even then you don’t need to agree to anything at the mediation if you don’t want to.

          • Disinfectant

            I was very annoyed. It was a complete waste of time for me but a huge advantage to the employee and their lawyer. I just wanted to go straight to the Employment Court.

            The whole process was effectively holding a gun to my head. They weren’t mediating, they were wanting money. Nothing else but money!

            In WO’s case it might be worth bypassing mediation and let the Complainants (HRC) take it to Court.

    • Isherman

      Not my place to suggest what course of action the blog might take, but I would make a point or two.
      If you look at the relevant sections of the HRA (sections 61-63) dealing with Racial Harassment and Disharmony, there are some exceptions, which include newspapers, mags, periodicals, radio ( and I assume blogs) if they are reporting on an item of percieved discrimination.
      So go back to the beginning, when the cartoon was first published here, it was first and foremostly to enquire if readers thought it was acceptable or crossed a line, not to explicitly promote the theme of the cartoon itself. As for the cartoon itself, could it not be argued that it was itself a form of reporting on a current topical issue in the news relating to a societal issue that facts support as being over-represented by a specific group? I think a careful reading of the act is the answer to deciding if you accept mediation. Best of luck in any course you take, like others here my instinctive reaction would be to tell them to take a flying leap, but whether that’s the best course of action isn’t for me (or us readers) to decide. I just think the whole complaint is a politically motivated attack on a blog these clown just cant stomach…it’s not really about racism I don’t think.

    • jaundiced

      If there is a request for mediation, that suggests that there is a specific person or persons that have been ‘hurt’.

      And given that it is the HRC taking this up, then the HRC must consider that somebody’s human rights have been been violated. If the HRC does not believe this to be the case, then they shouldn’t be wasting your time in indulging this any further.

      Therefore I would want to know:
      1. Who, specifically, has had their human rights violated by this cartoon
      2. In what way, specifically, has their human rights been violated by the cartoon

      In regard to the first point, they will need to verify that the complainants are not complaining, or being offended on the part of other people, but that they have been specifically impacted in some tangible way
      On the second, if their rights have been violated simply by being ‘offended’, then that is not a violation of human rights. I am not aware of any law in NZ (lets hope we never get to that) where being offended is a violation of human rights.

      If they can’t answer both of these, then the appropriate answer is that you have no need to invest your time in this nonsense.

      EDIT. The people who have been offended are unlikely to be regular readers of this blog. Therefore they must have come here with the specific purpose of being offended.

    • Wheninrome

      Don’t for get your support person !!

    • Miss Phit

      Id like to suggest taking a box of tissues and a bag of cement. Then they can dry their eyes and harden up.

      But I wont. This is serious and is likely to be being driven from the upper levels of the bureaucracy monster because of the popularity of this blog. The main players at WO are targets and this seems to be just another attempt to poison the waters around the whale. The angry left and the public service have been holding hands for a very long time so it gets hard to see where one starts and one stops.

      Be factual, be polite and be firm. Dont let emotions cloud the issue, even though the cartoon raised an emotive response.

      Ask why is it that only this cartoon was targeted and if we can expect other blogs/media to be targeted for the same punishment? (Im guessing that the response will be they are discussing this case and no others at this point).

      Good luck.

  • oldmanNZ

    why is this news on NZH? “” Sacha McNeil says ‘we’ll all be okay’ when Hilary Barry leaves TV3 today””

    oh, she leave today..I actually thought she left already.
    old news
    old story
    old drama
    yesterday news today.

    • shykiwibloke

      More standard flowers all round perhaps? Maybe all the stories they had planned have been dumped becuase the budget was good, and this is all that is left.

      • Sailor Sam

        Paul Henry mentioned a K-mart gift card.

        • oldmanNZ

          is that 1 step better than the warehouse?

    • Crowgirl

      This has gone beyond the ridiculous – has she died? No. Will the world stop turning? Certainly not. She’s a fricken newsreader, she’s not curing cancer.

    • Miss Phit

      Hilary who?

  • cows4me

    Greetings from beautiful Wanaka , weather is fantastic but rather cool,snow covering the alps,heading for queenstown today Very nice sitting in spa pool with the frost all around . Just made it to Wanaka as we were the last car over Lindis pass Monday afternoon before they shut the road. Us soft north islanders not use to all the white stuff.

    • MaryLou

      Got your “T” plate on??

    • Disinfectant

      When you get to Queenstown put your WO cap on and I will say hello.

    • Nige.

      Well if you’re passing through Marlborough city send me an email. I’ll shout you a pie and an ipa

  • kereru

    On a more sobering note, Daniel Greenfield tells it as it is: the Muslim World is a permanent refugee crisis. The only solution is to shut the door.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/262936/muslim-world-permanent-refugee-crisis-daniel-greenfield

    • Duchess of Pork

      A very penetrating analysis by Greenfield which connects the dots of overpopulation, economic problems and civil wars causing a permanent migration crisis from the Islamic ME and North Africa to western Europe. Note also in the comments section Greenfield postulates Germany is using Muslim migration to increase its power over Eastern Europe.
      When a strong wind is blowing doors, once opened, can be difficult to close.

  • kloyd0306

    NZH’s news that the NZME and Fairfax merger “believe their planned merger will free up investment for high-quality journalism.

    It should read: “believe their planned merger will free up investment for high-quality LEFT LEANING, PRO LABOUR/GREENS journalism.

    • OneTrack

      Maybe they meant “.. even MORE low-quality LEFT LEANING, PRO LABOUR/GREENS journalism.”

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