Orlando attack mana from heaven for politicians

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In the wake of the deadliest shooting in US history, likely Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump said he was “right on radical Islamic terrorism” and called for toughness and vigilance.

Trump made the statement on Twitter after the attack in an Orlando, Florida nightclub which killed 50 people and wounded 53.

“Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism, I don’t want congrats, I want toughness & vigilance,” Trump tweeted. “We must be smart.”

The Orlando shooter, who was killed by police, was identified as a Florida resident, Omar S. Mateen.

An FBI official said Mateen might have leanings toward Islamic State’s ideology but cautioned that the suspected Islamist connection required further investigation.

Trump has proposed a temporary ban on Muslim immigration to the United States as a way to combat the threat of radical Islamist attacks.

Hillary Clinton, the presumptive Democratic nominee, tweeted a brief statement after the attacks, but did not speculate on the motives of the gunman.

The gunman was a registered Democrat. Ouch.

Orlando Shooting Suspect Identified As Omar Mateen, Registered Democrat Of Afghan Descent; Pledged Allegiance To ISIS

Omar Mateen, who several years ago changed his name Omar Mir Seddique and added the Mateen part to his official name, is now said to have pledged allegiance to ISIS. As the Post reports, Omar Mateen had committed himself to ISIS before carrying out the bloodiest mass murder in US history at a gay nightclub in Orlando on Sunday, federal officials said. ateen “made a pledge of allegiance to ISIS,” California Rep. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, told CNN.

And in an even more surprising update, NBC reports that moments before the shootings, Omar Mateen called 911 to pledge allegiance to ISIS.

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It ticks all the boxes, yet the US will probably continue to refuse to call this an act of Islamic terrorism.

 

– Reuters, NBC

 


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  • Jafarma

    I’m not holding my breathe waiting for our MSM to call this an act of Islamic terrorism either.

    • biscuit barrel

      “President Barack Obama on Sunday described the worst mass shooting in US history as “an act of terror” and “an act of hate,” saying the massacre of 50 people at a packed gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida was an attack on all Americans.”

      is that enough for you. Even George Bush didnt call 911 muslim terrorism
      “The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends. It is not our many Arab friends.

      “Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists”

      • Mark

        It is indeed enough for me.
        It will not mean however that I will forget that it has taken him a wee bit of time to come to this rational opinion,or at least pay lip service to it.
        The hatred is because of the freedom America provides for it’s people,restricting that freedom is not the solution.
        Stopping the enemy is.

      • KatB

        But is he acknowledging where those “acts” are coming from?

      • kereru

        President Obama also declared, “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.”

        A forked tongue. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

        • biscuit barrel

          he also said this
          “Let us remember that Muslims have suffered the most at the hands of extremism.”

          • kereru

            That is not correct. Yes, they have suffered, but not ‘the most’.

          • biscuit barrel

            I week in Baghdad or Kabul has car bombs that can kill scores

            “At least 93 killed in ISIL-claimed car bombings in Baghdad” Thats was just one day on one month may2016

          • waldopepper

            yes, but they choose this barbaric ideology to begin with. would be a bit like hookers complaining that its not fair that they get more std’s than other people.

      • Jafarma

        Is see that as our MSM reporting what someone else said, rather than them giving ‘their opinion’ of what it actually was

  • Crowgirl

    Worst thing on TV this morning was watching the “journalists” on the CBC express confusion as to why the FBI would possibly classify this as terrorism. It was laughable if it hadn’t been so puke-inducing. Why they insist on playing dumb is beyond me – they are not dumb so they must truly believe the public are. Either that or they truly don’t know what defines a terrorist act, and in which case they should quit their jobs immediately.

    The public is not dumb – some may have their heads in the sand a bit but they will come to see and hear the evidence before them and put 2 and 2 together.

    • Wheninrome

      The realty is too harsh for the MSM to contemplate, they will all have to become war correspondents with the danger that will impose on them.

    • David Moore

      Just wait for some hashtag memes to show up;

      #feebleresponsetoshockingcrimewhilestickingheadinsand

      • Crowgirl

        How about #I’llbegaywithyou? Politically correct enough?

  • Nige.

    At some point the leadership of the USA needs to go back to what they are known for:

    Being PRO-active and allowing the 99% of citizens who are the “good guys” to “peer review” the 1% of the bad guys.

    Reaction is fine if you’ve found someone to be lacking in competence, but enough is enough from Obama. He’s the one who’s lacking.

    • Wheninrome

      One could say he is assisting terrorism, however I believe he has called it, but then the act has been claimed by ISIS.

      • Nige.

        Not this one. Fight fire (power) with fire. Who wants a leader who rolls over?

  • Wheninrome

    One wonders who wanted this, whose purpose does it suit, does ISIS want this in the hope that Trump gets in so they have an excuse for all out “war” because of Trump’s anti Islamist views.

    The number of “lone wolf” attacks that have been claimed by the MSM in my view make up a Pack.

    However we are told that “if we stop hating all will be well”, so I assume MSM would have us all become Muslim. However that won’t solve the issue given the varying sects among Muslims who all seeme to hate each other and try to wipe each other out.

    I remain confused by the whole issue. No-one has the answer, apart from the words “live and let live”.
    ,

    • JustAnotherLurker

      I think that the collective noun for a number of “lone wolves” is not “Pack” but “an Islam of Lone Wolfs”

    • kereru

      ‘Live and let live’ assumes the other side agrees, which it manifestly doesn’t. Assisted by its Lefty apoligists, It expects and demands abject apologies for being proud of our heritage and insulting Islam. We should put on sackcloth and ashes to feel ourselves humiliated, beat our brows, wring our hands and self-flagellate, grant ever more concessions to help bring the Middle East to the South Pacific, and – as our Govertment is apparently considering today – let in far more of it to our nation. Anything else would be ‘Islamophobic’ and raaaacist.

      http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/refugee-quota-decision-expected-this-week-2016061307#axzz4BOpgfBua

      • Wheninrome

        Live and let live to me means you get on with your life and allow me to get on with mine, no interference with each other, no apologies as none would be required. I dream I know, but hope springs eternal, else we are doomed.

        • kereru

          True, and that’s what gives us the freedoms we enjoy in the West. My point is that freedom to live and let live does not exist in Islam. It’s convert to Islam or die; leave Islam and die. It magnifies death as the ultimate good.

          This ideology is not compatible with democracy or, indeed, any other system of faith, whether monotheistic or otherwise. It is effectively a death cult whose weapon is dominance and fear. If it wasn’t compulsory it would have fizzled out on the death of its founder.

          • Wheninrome

            I know, but I can hope otherwise. If I have no hope for the future where to?

          • kereru

            How about joining together, whether our faith is in the God of the Bible, or in humanism, secularism or atheism, and agree that we face a common threat and cease this unrelenting attempted point-scoring against Christianity? Nothing is gained by it. It is, in fact, a distraction, a wasted effort and totally counter-productive.

            Surely we can all see that internal division only serves the Islamist cause. It has, in fact, been the impetus for its revival, and is now driving it. Islam is well used to benefitting from the old principle of ‘Divide and Conquer’. Please don’t feed the monster. Instead, can we focus on the real issue and make sure we present a united front to combat it.

          • Wheninrome

            The words “Joining together” conjure up another Club with a leader. Maybe this is the way to go for the common cause of “freedom” but of course “freedom” comes with rules so that we don’t step on other people’s toes so to speak.
            Perhaps you are right – join together for the common cause of freedom, but the debate will go on regarding the interpretation of freedom and who is right and who is wrong.
            The fact that we are able to have this huge debate means we are “free”.
            Maintaining that “freedom” will mean we have to put aside our individual differing thoughts on the interpretation of freedom.
            Who will be our leader, and don’t tell me “God” because then we are back where we started with the who is right and who is wrong argument and which interpretation of God to follow.

          • KatB

            I hear what you are saying and it’s a good question you ask. Maybe respect could be our leader? The debate going on in this thread, whilst very varied, has been respectful and something the west must cling on to. I think genuine respect is something Muslims struggle to reciprocate and maybe that is what us westerners can unite on and use against them. No respect given, none earned. To me, I think respect gives me freedom.

          • kereru

            ‘Who will be our leader, and don’t tell me “God” because then we are back where we started with the who is right and who is wrong argument and which interpretation of God to follow.’

            Therein lies the problem. “Don’t do this and don’t tell me that” – and in the next breath speak of the need for tolerance?! Of course I don’t mean joining a club, nor have I insisted that you believe in God. It isn’t up to me, or anyone else, anyway. No human father wants an imposed relationship with his child, and God is no different. He speaks for Himself.

            But can’t we just live and let live, as you orignally suggested? That has to be a two-way street. Instead of focussing on your obvious dislike of Christ, just drop it – He isn’t the problem! We need to conserve our energies to keep our focus on our common interest in keeping Islam out of our nation. That’s all I’m trying to say.

          • Wheninrome

            Telling me to “drop it” and that I have a dislike of Christ answers my questions regarding intolerance, it comes in all walks of life and is the reason mankind will continue to “argue the toss” with each other.
            Unfortunately we have a large group who use violence in trying to win the argument/discussion.

          • kereru

            Apologies but it was a tongue-in-cheek way of alerting you to the use of bias.” Don’t tell me God because…”

            Unfortunately, the word ‘tolerance’ is bandied around as some kind of mantra these days, like ‘racist!’ But what it really does is shut down debate before it gets going. A far better word is compassion – that is what Jesus showed, and it is much harder to put into practice than mere ‘tolerance’ which really doesn’t deal with anything. It’s neutral. It just sounds good.

          • Wheninrome

            An apology was not needed, however the word bias you use, we are all biased towards what we believe or promote, whether religious or non religious, so there will always be debate in a free society. All people try and convert others to their way of thinking, “win the argument”. I like to think a civilised society does not have to resort to violence for that purpose. Wishful thinking on my part, given the USA would consider itself civilised.

    • OneTrack

      Haven’t we “stopped hating” for long enough to accept that that plan is simply not working and we need another one.

  • oldmanNZ

    As with the other Europe countries, the enemy is no longer invading, they already inside as refugees and breeding an army.

    how did Isis ideas reach his head inside US, his parents were known to support the Taliban.
    teaching and hatred of the US culture usually come from an early age.

    He is not the first, and wont be the last. Its not just a US problem.

  • Wangas Feral

    My understanding is that the target was a gay and lesbian club. The left refuse to even acknowledge Islamic terrorism and Islam’s hatred of gays. Be interesting to see how they fit this into their narrative.

    • Doc45

      Agree WF. The whole Gay Pride thing will escalate and drown any discussion on Muslim terrorism.

    • Doug

      It will become a hate crime against gays rather than anything to do with Islam

  • Martin

    Unfortunate timing for the guy on the news calling for an increase in the number of refugees from totalitarian paedophile deathcult countries.
    Even the dimmest socialist hand wringers must find it hard not to make the connections by now.

  • twittertit

    New York
    London
    Paris (x2)
    Sydney
    Brussells
    Boston
    Jerusalem (too many to count)
    Baghdad (again, too many to count)
    Benghazi (does that count??)

    And that’s just off the top of my head.

    If those attacks had all been committed in the name of Catholisism, Judaism, etc this would be reported much differently by the media.

    As a young gay 20-something, this could have very easily happened to me. I hope all those injured make it thtough, and I’m thinking of the friends and family of those killed.

    Politicians could learn one thing from Trump, and that’s to state what is really going on here.

    • spanishbride

      Milo Yiannopoulos is a gay conservative libertarian that I am a big fan of and he has stated repeatedly that as a gay man he is terrified of Mass muslim immigration. Gays like women have fought hard for their rights to be recognised. We cannot keep blindly importing a belief system that will work to tear down all that we have fought for.

      • Jannie

        Milo has helped to kick start a mass following to the alternative right because everyone is sick of this PC BS where nothing gets discussed and everyone is sick of the left-leaning SJW Media shoving their agenda down everyone’s throats instead of telling the plain hard truth as it is.

    • biscuit barrel

      have you heard what Obama said , in this order
      “an act of terror”
      “an act of hate,”
      “attack on all Americans”

      • cows4me

        Didn’t really have much choice did he, he’s painted himself into a corner.

  • Sponsz

    Obama and Clinton have already put their spin on this event. It happened because of the ready availability of firearms! The way to prevent further attacks is to clamp down on the right to bear arms!

    • David Moore

      The correct response to an attack on American freedoms is to strip Americans of freedoms.

      • biscuit barrel

        The unrestricted right to bear arms is currently legally only that to defend your home unless otherwise allowed.

        • biscuit barrel

          “District of Columbia v. Heller, …… was a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held in a 5-4 decision that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution … and protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.”
          Macdonald V Chicago meant it applied to states as well)

          Within the home only

        • Mark

          The unrestricted right to self defence & the means thereof is a Moral right & obligation,not subject to restriction.The US Constitution simply (quite simply but still too complicated for some) affirms this Moral right.

  • Edward M Blake

    Already the media party at trying to frame this as a gun control issue. That approach didn’t work so well for Paris did it?

    • shykiwibloke

      This guy would fit the pattern for middle eastern terrorist more than a Charlton Heston recreational hunter methinks. Worries me the Luvies can’t detect the difference.

      • Edward M Blake

        The media party is so desperate to not hand the narrative to Donald Trump that they’re now saying this is a homophobic motivated attack.

        • Davo42

          Christians, Gays, people who draw cartoons of Muhammad, women who don’t walk around with a sack on their head – were all the same and deserve to die in the eyes of Islam.

  • 10cents

    I cant believe the ignorance and intolerance on this topic. Seriously people – read my lips. Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with religion

    • BMSKiwi

      What a strange thing to say.

      • 10cents

        Our media and politicians insist that my statement is true, don’t they. But when you state it that bluntly it looks absurd. Maybe it might make one of them think about their insistence that the link doesn’t exist.

        • spanishbride

          No one ever feels the need to state repeatedly that Christianity is a religion of peace. I wonder why that is? Makes me think of Nixon who kept saying ” I am not a crook.”

        • kereru

          As Robert Spencer sarcastically puts it, “There are so many ‘misunderstanders of Islam’ in the world today. Who is going to tell them they have it all wrong, and that Islam is really a relgion of peace?”

    • LesleyNZ

      How come hundreds of millions of Muslims agree with ISIS? If Islam wasn’t here they would not be here and doing what they do. It has everything to do with religion. Just thankful that here in NZ we mostly have moderate Muslims who disagree and ignore a segment of the Koran that encourages them to kill the people of the Book and Jews and all other infidels. This evil Islamic ISIS terrorist may have been a lone wolf in the US but he would fit into the packs of wolves that live in the radical Islamic countries.

      • Jannie

        “Just thankful that here in NZ we mostly have moderate Muslims who disagree…”

        I have to respectfully disagree in part.

        It is only because the Muslims in New Zealand make up a minority group at this point in time that these so called “moderates” are peaceful. There have been some studies that show that the more muslims there are as a percentage of a country the more overtly oppressive that country becomes.

        You also have to question the priorities of “moderate muslims” who seem more interested in damage control on the image of Islam rather than actually condemning the actions themselves. It’s a sign that they actually agree with these actions which is why they won’t outright condemn them.

        • biscuit barrel

          Its saudi Wahhabism that is the problem, and they are funding mosques in NZ ( as well as worldwide)

          • kereru

            Not just the mosques, the Islamic schools, Imams and all the rest.

        • kereru

          Like most human beings, they prefer to keep their heads attached to their necks and live their lifetime without being constantly under threat. The fruits of Islam show the roots of Islam and no amount of feel-good idealistic propaganda will change it.

          • Jannie

            I also appreciate that a person leaving Islam that’s allowed to live, say in a Western country, that they would be ex-communicated by all other Muslims including their family. I also understand this happens in other religions as well, but that on top of the threat to life as you mentioned would be considered by some as “good” reasons to not speak out against Islam.

            I think you’ve alluded to this, but even if we give moderate Muslims the benefit of the doubt that they genuinely abhor these acts, but are just afraid to speak out then that surely highlights how morally reprehensible Islam is to silence anyone that doesn’t agree.

    • Bryan

      try telling an islamic that their holy jihad is not religion!! since the 6th century they have killed millions in the name of allah 500 plus battles since 6th century against Christianity versus 7 crusades to defend the holy land and they even slaugthered 50000 hindu’s in one day!! spain finally got rid of the problem by kicking the whole lot out, and Europe has yet to realize it is the only way to deal with the problem, as they do not understand accepting others way of life its their way or the highway, they emigrate, populate, agitate then dominate that has been their modus operation for 15 centuries and you think they are going to stop now. It is hard for us kiwis who are so accepting to understand that these people do not think like we do and whats more don’t want to, as their whole life approach is steeped in anti christian and secular rejection

    • Wheninrome

      A matter of opinion, and there in lies the problem. We cannot all agree.

    • kereru

      Surely you forgot to add the ‘sarc’ tag?

      • 10cents

        yeah, I was being totally sarcastic! I cant believe the west keeps deluding itself. We are somehow censored for criticizing Islam with words or cartoons ( Stuff is a prime example of this), and yet the same media are quite happy to broadcast Islam’s murderous ‘opinion’ of our culture by providing breathless coverage of the body count and the shots fired. Hypocrisy perhaps?.

  • Wheninrome

    This is almost a replay of watching while Rome burns. The problem with these terrorists is they do not care if they die, they are brainwashed into thinking it will be a better place. We care to remain alive because of what we have, family, friends, our pets, we care plain and simple.
    Our service men and women care, they don’t want to kill people, the act of killing causes post traumatic stress, they suffer later in life.
    What is the answer, wringing our hands won’t fix it.
    In my book the answer lies in destroying the leaders because they care about leading their foot soldiers who blow themselves up. The leaders care about staying alive, if they didn’t they would be the ones comitting the acts of terrorism. So if we identify the ones who care and remove them we might start to get somewhere, but of course there will be another one to take their place, back to square one.
    What about the people supplying the weapons and know how, the vehicles with the guns on the back, some look a bit like the Ute down on the farm ,who is supplying these things maybe stop that at source, allow food but come down heavy on the western countries who continue to supply arms cause it helps their budget, I am talking england, USA, france, germmany, italy etc, their are arms dealers among them, the profit is huge. So who can stop this, forget the UN, where there is money morals can go out the window, self interest takes over.

    • Seriously?

      I think you’re right, in the short term the west needs to take the gloves off.

      In the long term though new leaders and foot-soldiers will take the place of those removed. The long term solution seems (to me) to involve Islam undergoing a modernization / reformation that sees it enter the 21st century (or even just the 19th might do). We need to foster that somehow as without it this sort of thing will not stop.

      The hardest bit may be that those two conflict – by removing the current crop do we deepen the motivation of the next.

      The headline for this post made me wonder which heaven the mana fell from. I heard a US politician say that the best thing we can do is pray for the families of those caught up in the attack. Religion.

      • Wheninrome

        Ever on does history repeat. There is always someone trying to make a name for themselves, no matter where you look. The average person needs someone to tell them what do do how to run their lives, the decisions are too hard to make by themselves, they might be wrong. Hence religion, armed forces, terrorist leaders, governments, scout leaders, mens clubs, ladies organisations, sports clubs, there always has to be a leader. But in my book a leader should be accountable, but then again are they just voicing the will of the people they would have us think. Mankind has “leaders” in all parts of their lives, call it the power of the advertising dollar. MSM would like to think they are leaders when in actual fact they should just be reporters. And yes the word “pray” comes out of the mouths of people when confronted by something bad, is this brainwashing from their youth. Are the young not exposed to religious instruction using the same word.

        • kereru

          I think today the young are exposed to militant atheism and the worship of self. Humans are born to worship (which means ‘give worth to’) someone or something. Drum God out and take your pick. You can see the results in today’s anchorless society.

          • Wheninrome

            We are on the same page, the power of civilised debate.

      • kereru

        A sulphurous political ideology wrapped in a thin cloak of a counterfeit theocracy, which makes it more dangerous than either Fascism or Communism. We won’t gain anything by blaming this on gun ownership or, indeed, religion – which is just a veneer to justify its existence. Christ draws people by His love; Allah threatens them with his fury. It is unwise not to differentiate between the two.

        • Wheninrome

          That worked in Ireland with the IRA, this had a religious catholic versus protestant background as well as political, english rule and home rule.
          what about the english wars between the Queens, the catholic queen and the anglican queen. Same God wasn’t it.

          • kereru

            Christianity is not, and never has been, a political movement as is Islam. But that hasn’t stopped human beings using it as a justification for what they decide to do. There is nothing in the teaching of Christ to provoke it or justify it – quite the contrary. Yes, there was tension between Catholics and Protestants – they’ve not forgiven them for bringing Christianity back to Biblical teaching during the Reformation and thus eroding their overbearing power. However, the ‘troubles’ in Ireland had everything to do with the politics of unifying the nation and little to do with their denominations. Northern Ireland wished to remain part of the UK, Southern Ireland did not. The North was mostly Protestant, the South mostly Catholic. The fighting was sectarian but not Biblical.

            The Tudors reigned between 1485 and 1603. The Protestant Reformation was carried out during much the same period. It was a time of great upheaval and vying for power. Life was short and brutish then. Again, it has to do with earthly kingdoms, and human ambitions, not Jesus Christ. Same God, yes. But God didn’t come into it. You can’t have free will and domination at the same time. You can only have one or the other. Islam stands for the latter. I prefer the former.

          • Wheninrome

            I prefer free will, but early Christianity controlled peoples lives, whether by the fear of God or otherwise.

          • biscuit barrel

            The Crusades were a political/military movement. Its out of fashion now but the British empire had a lot of ‘God’ behind it ( same goes for Spanish, french, Portuguese etc )

          • kereru

            They might have thought so, but did they ever bother to check?

          • kereru

            ‘Fashion’ has got absolutely nothing to do with it. You speak as if the Crusades were some kind of whim.

            In reality they were a Catholic initiative to re-claim the Christian holy places in Jerusalem and elsewhere from the Muslim bandits and marauders 500 years ago. Thankfully they succeeded in beating them back, and regaining freedom from Islam, otherwise we’d all be speaking Arabic and bowing down to Allah five times a day.

            Isn’t history taught at all in our schools today, or has it all been dumbed down to PC Social Studies?

          • kereru

            Sorry, 1st century Christianity led to the first instances of martyrdom of all but one of the immediate disciples of Jesus, and Paul, the ex-Rabbi who was the leading missionary of his time. Roman Catholicism was not ‘early’ Christianity. The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church about 313 A.D, which made this new ‘Christianity’ the official religion of the Roman Empire. It bore little if any resemblance to its 1st century origins.

          • Mike

            And the Catholic church is what if not a political entity

          • biscuit barrel

            islam and Christianity have the same God, as well as Judaism

          • Wheninrome

            So same god different interpretations of the “will of God”. Therein lies the problem. If the teachings were all the same there should be no problem, apart from the element of man’s interference and the eternal question of who is right.

          • Bryan

            no allah is not Jehovah they would have you believe that, but not so, the God they present as Allah is a Judgmental God there is nothing of love grace and forgiveness which is the heart of Christian distinction, and they don’t accept the deity of Christ but just see him as a Prophet. It is a religion of works and rules and control and you see as Isis moves in it is all about stamping down control on everyone while they milk the money for all its worth.

          • kereru

            They most certainly do not! Here are a few contrasts to consider:

            Allah is unknowable – Jehovah (God) desires relationship and reaches out to mankind.

            Allah is not to be thought of as a father – God calls Himself Father and makes it clear that He loves us as a father.

            Allah does not answer prayers – God hears and answers prayers.

            Allah’s uses fear to gain converts – God uses love to draw them.

            Allah offers no forgiveness – God freely offers forgiveness.

            Allah is capricious – God is unchanging.

            Allah furthers his cause by violence – God does this by His love, mercy, forgiveness and grace (unmerited favour).

            Allah makes Islam compulsory at birth – God gives mankind free choice.

            Allah wishes to destroy all who do not believe in him – God wishes all would come to Him freely, but has given mankind free will.

            The word love hardly appears in the Qur’an, and is only directed at Muslims – God calls himself Love. The word ‘love’ appears in the Bible hundreds of times because He loves all the peoples of the world.

            Allah’s idea of love is conditional – God’s love is freely given.

            Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Qur’an – Jerusalem is mentioned over 800 times in the Bible.

            I’ve only scratched the surface. Now do you still believe they are the same God?!

          • biscuit barrel

            The word “love” appears 310 times in the King James Bible, 348 times in the New American Standard Bible, 551 times in the New International Version and 538 times in the New Revised Standard Version. The extremely varied numbers for the usage of the word “love” are due in part to translation.

            Thats strange for something thats the direct word of God ? Did he lose count?

            “The Bible directly mentions money over 800 times and makes over 2,000 financial references”- who knew

          • biscuit barrel

            Oh there is these ones
            Love thy neighbour
            Love thy enemies.
            Hows that going for you.

          • kereru

            ‘Thats strange for something thats the direct word of God ? Did he lose count?’

            Anyone can consult Google, but that doesn’t mean they understand why there is a variation in the figures.To state the obvious, the Bible was not written in English – it was written in Hebrew (OT) and Greek with some Aramaic (NT). There are several word for the different kinds of love in both Hebrew and Greek whereas there’s only one word for ‘love’ in English. We can only grasp the meaning by the context. I love chocolate does not mean in the same way as I love my child.

            The Old Testament speaks much of
            God having an almost unbelievable love for
            people. The main Hebrew words used in the Old
            Testament to define God’s love are “ahab”, “ahabah”, “habab”,
            “hashaq” and “hesed”.

            There are five words for love in Greek, but the use of ‘agape’ in the NT is the most common: “In
            respect of ‘agapao’ as used of God, it expresses the
            deep and constant ‘love’ and interest of a perfect
            Being towards entirely unworthy
            objects, producing and fostering a reverential
            ‘love’ in them towards the Giver, and a practical
            ‘love’ towards those who are partakers of the same,
            and a desire to help others to seek
            the Giver”.

            http://internetbiblecollege.net/tWIBC/Subjects-41-50/Subject-45/Hebrew%20And%20Greek%20Words%20About%20Gods%

          • Mike

            They do… Pope Paul VI declared as much, have a look at Nostra Aetate.

            While there are differences they are the same God. I know you may like to distance yourself from their evil, but a bit of intellectual honesty goes a long way.

          • kereru

            Let’s look at this logically – the ‘same’ anything is the same as the other thin in every way. A cow is not the same as a lion. You’d be laughed at if you suggested it was. Allah and God have only one thing in common – that ‘allah’ is the Arabic word for ‘god’. Full stop. What is confusing is that Allah is the proper name in Islam. God is not God’s name in the Bible. In the Hebrew it is YHWH, transliterated as Yahweh or Jehovah. Furthermore, Islam claims that there was a need for another prophet after Jesus. Jesus was not merely a prophet, but God incarnate. His last words on the cross were “It is finished!” The redemption of mankind was complete forever. God had made human beings forgivable through the death of Jesus Christ for our sins.

            But no, 7 centuries later an Arab sheltering in a cave, suddenly gets the shock of his life and runs out in hysterics claiming that he’d been attacked by ‘jinns’ (demons). Probably to calm him down, someone feeds him the story that it was not demons but the Angel Gabriel he saw. And so Islam began.

            If you want to believe what a Pope says, that’s fine, but I prefer to believe the plain words of Jesus Christ. And if you are a Christian, so should you.

          • OneTrack

            That is what the muslims say, but then they describe Allah as being completely different to the Christian god. I think they call it taqiya.

          • KatB

            The difference is, Christians don’t have any justification for that type of conflict. Not to say Christians don’t, or haven’t in the past, committed such atrocities but they cannot claim to be following their faith when doing so.

          • Wheninrome

            They can and they did. Now when we “fight a war” we do it to save our way of life we say it is for freedom. What does our way of life mean? Does it include our right to freedom of religious belief, which means there is a religious element in that.

          • KatB

            I hope it would mean our right to freedom of belief, Atheist, Christian etc, to not be forced upon anybody else.

          • kereru

            Don’t you already have the right to freedom of religious belief? Which ‘religion’ is insisting you join their faith in NZ? I can assure you now no true Christian will surrender their faith, no matter how barbarically they are treated.

            Fact: Between 150-200 million Christian believers in 50 nations are suffering some level of persecution right now under both Communism and Islam – including imprisonment without trial, torture and death. Think about it – if you were to be confronted by a Muslim demanding that you convert to Islam or die for atheism, what would you do?

          • Wheninrome

            I would hope that I had the courage of my convictions.

    • KatB

      I don’t know if you can ever change this way of thinking, it’s been ingrained forever, I think the best thing we can do is keep it out of our western world and push back on the day to day things. Unfortunately I guess the genie is well and truly out of the bottle though and we’ve got a fight on our hands to get it back in.

  • Jannie

    You can just see the regressives hi-jacking this atrocity and focusing almost solely on the gun rights issues as opposed to the Islamic terrorism issue.

    • Observer

      They’re not going to start attacking their sacred groups. Too much cognitive dissonance.

      • Jannie

        Even when one of those sacred groups (LGBT) are the ones who’ve been attacked in this case. To do so would ruin their narrative of minority oppression, and spreading diversity even if it means importing a backward death cult ideology.

  • Isherman

    All about gun control..blah blah blah
    Nothing to do with Islamic Terrorism blah blah blah
    ‘Just’ a hate crime against gays blah blah blah
    All of which explains why he made the concsious decision just before the terrorist attack to declare allegience to the most barbaric and brutal organisation of Islamic terrorism that the world has seen and act in their name…

    • Seriously?

      It is about all three. Not in equal parts, but to say it is just one of them is a bit too simplistic.

      Religion fosters the hate, and emboldens it with the belief that there is a better place to come as a reward. The guns are a means of expression, a very efficient tool with which to vent the hate.

      Just so terribly sad that people can do this rubbish.

      • Isherman

        Your right, but the comment is really related to those who would seek to downplay that particular element. He didn’t have to declare allegiance to carry out the attack, and didn’t have to act in their name…but he did.

        • Seriously?

          Yep. It needs all three: with just the hate and the means, self preservation inhibits most of them.

      • Jannie

        I’m not saying you’re wrong, but just you watch the mainstream media try to minimize the religion part and focus on the gun control part.

      • Jannie

        And although religions can foster hate, why is it that Islam is overrepresented OVERWHELMINGLY by terror attacks?
        Why don’t we see Christians, Jews or Hindus commit these types of atrocities?
        Pro tip: It’s because the Koran teaches them that killing gays/Jews/apostates/adulterers (who get stoned) is not only ok, but it’s encouraged.
        There is a direct link from Doctrine to violence.

        • Seriously?

          Agree. I don’t know that many other religions are that different, but the way they are practiced has evolved significantly over the past 500 years or so – they have (for the most part) outgrown their barbarism.

          • Jannie

            Precisely, Christians in particular have reformed to go away from the Old Testament.

            Which is why if you poll Christians on whether they think gays/Jews/no-believers/adulterers should die, I can almost guarantee you that the percentage would be less than 1%, whereas the so-called moderate muslims in other countries the polling numbers are always shockingly high. I believe Turkey, the “shining example” of secular Islam polls at 18% when polled about the preference of Sharia Law.

          • KatB

            The thing is, Christians cannot claim that Jesus would condone any such acts. Whilst some Christians may believe they can commit such acts they cannot back it up with Christ’s teachings.

          • kereru

            Well said, KatB, but I would add quote marks around the some ‘Christians’.
            Of course, we have acknowledge some people mistakenly think they are Christians because they were born in the West, or because their father was a minister….or they knew the prayer book off by heart, as was once explained to me!

          • rua kenana

            They could probably more usefully read Matthew 13:49-50
            “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all …”
            What an appalling promise for any reasonable human to make, much less some alleged son of some alleged god.
            This ‘believe as I do or else …’ stuff is far too reminiscent of Stalin’s arbitrarily determined ‘enemies of the people’ who were either sent to Siberian forced labour camps or tortured in the Lubyanka (NKVD now KGB HQ in Moscow) until they recanted their beliefs à la the unlamented Christian Spanish Inquisition.
            But at least the victims could die to bring that sort of horror to an end whereas the Christian furnace of fire goes on for all of eternity since Jesus has never reappeared to renounce it.
            Personally I’d much prefer to have my chance at the Muslim 72 virgins, although an even more attractive and more likely future is laid out in (for example) the English poet William Johnson Cory’s ‘Mimnermus in Church”
            “You promise heavens free from strife,
            Pure truth, and perfect change of will;
            But sweet, sweet is this human life,
            So sweet, I fain would breathe it still;
            Your chilly stars I can forgo,
            This warm kind world is all I know.”

          • kereru

            The Reformation was nothing to do with ‘going away from the Old Testament’, but returning the Christian faith to the teachings of Jesus Christ, unhampered by Tradition and the other tappings which had muddied the waters. It’s motto was ‘Sola Scriptura’. It allowed the ordinary person to read the Bible in their own language for the first time, which gave them freedom to learn what Christ actually taught without the indoctrination of Catholic clergy. It brought back the Biblical teaching of the separation of Church and State. And many of the Reformers paid the ultimate price for doing so. Naturally the RCC did not appreciate having its enormous power and wealth eroded in this way.

            Islam is also going through a ‘reformation’, seeing the
            West as apostate, weak, and ready for plucking. But because its ‘holy books’ teach the aboslute opposite of Jesus Christ, they are going back their original fundamentals, which are ‘conversion by the sword’ and imposed religious belief. I do wish people would understand this vitally important difference. All this focussing on ‘religion’ without making any differentiation is only allowing Islam to get a stronger foothold. Let’s determine to say it as it is: It has nothing to do with ‘relgiion’. It has everything to do with the reformation of Islam back to its barbaric roots. It has arisen now that it sees the West weakened by not having the courage of its convictions, and more importantly rejecting the faith of its forebears. Islam despises spiritual vacuums brought about by militant secularism, leftist or otherwise. Please get this right. Christian or not, we are all on the same side against this scourge. We are only weakened further by atheist attacks on ‘religion’ – usually aimed at Christianity, the softest target of all.

            http://www.meforum.org/4740/islam-protestant-reformation

          • Mark

            You had my 100% agreement until the last sentence Kereru,I’m only deducting 1% for it.
            Christianity is strengthened by its separation of Church & State,by its recognition that an individual makes a choice to believe,some Churches/Religions need reminding of this.
            As a good man I have nothing to fear from other good men who believe in God & use those beliefs to assist them in living a good life.
            If some Churches/Religions decide to use an ideology to remove our choices from us then I stand beside those Christians/Religions who will renounce that.
            I certainly count you among the many Christians who live a good life as a reflection of their beliefs.

          • kereru

            Yes, of course, and I didn’t mean that Christinaity was weakened by the separation of Church and State. After all, if I claimed that I would be denying the teaching of Jesus! I meant that the constant hitting of the ‘soft target’ of Christ is nothing more than a distraction – dare I say, a cowardly distraction as the detractors know there will be no come-back.

            I wish atheists would be honest enough to make their position clear rather than shelter under the umbrella of ‘religion’. We all know what they really mean. And it doesn’t help unify us against the real problem facing us, which is my main point.

          • Jannie

            I understand your point, but just to make it clear I wasn’t attacking “religion” as a whole or “Christianity” which is why I’m trying to make the point that Christianity as a whole has been enlightened as a result of its reformation. Turn the other cheek you might say.

            I also think that saying that “religion” has everything to do with it is NOT necessarily an attack on ALL religions which is what I think you have an issue with, but I understand where you’re coming from here with the need to distinguish “religion” and “Islam”.

            I can’t fully agree with you about the assertion that Islam is reforming back to its barbaric roots, as I see no proof of how Islam reformed away from the original scripture in the first place. You could make the argument that modern day Muslims don’t follow teachings in the Koran, but this is hardly a reformation of scripture.

          • kereru

            Did you read the article in the link I provided? It explains the issue far better than I can.

          • Jannie

            I missed it. Thanks, it’s very informative reading and I appreciate a different point of view on this and can see your perspective about the distinctions about “reformation” and “secularisation”.

            I could argue you’re splitting hairs in terms of definitions, but I actually appreciate you’re being very literal and actually more accurate with words than I am.

            In the wider context, I had this conversation with a friend previously, but the gist of our conversation was that to “reform” Islam is actually impossible because then you would have teachings that are totally different from the original texts, so it wouldn’t really be a reformation at all, it would be essentially destroying the texts/religion.

          • Jannie

            I can see you’ve edited your reply. I just need to reply to one thing, because I’m fully aware that Islam does not worship the God of the Bible.
            I think the user “Biscuit Barrel” was the person who said they did.
            I never mentioned anything about Islam or Christianity being alike and I’ve explicitly talked about Islam when making my criticisms.

          • Wheninrome

            Or has our life become so easy, a bit like the Romans before it “burned”.

          • kereru

            Yes, that too.

      • Wheninrome

        Even on your deathbed you are given the opportunity to repent your sins and welcome god into your life, the alternative is to burn in hell for all time. Reward and punishment.

    • rua kenana

      OK!
      But I think maybe not the “most barbaric and brutal organisation of Islamic terrorism that the world has seen”
      The Ottoman Empire was a Turkish-based Islamic construct. Even the German Parliament has just voted to confirm the Ottomans carried out the Armenian genocide of just on 100 years ago of probably 800,000 to 1.5 million Armenians, mostly apostolic Christians.
      Wikipedia notes that In the early 4th century, the Kingdom of Armenia became the first state to adopt Christianity as a state religion.
      And that was only one of the Ottomans’ performances. They were a fine example of “the religion of peace” and make the Daesh of today seem pretty small stuff.

    • Crowgirl

      This is totally about islam. There was an imam at the police press conference who gave a statement with all the usual platitudes. It was live on the TV here. There’d be no need for that if it wasn’t about islam. I was quite surprised they’d made the link so quickly – I thought they’d cover it up for as long as they could.

      • Isherman

        Turns out he’s been investigated by the FBI before…twice for either bragging about having terrorist links and for being an aquaintance of a suicide bomber who blew himself up in 2014. Also, he was Muslim, and if we are to believe the fathers story that he was enraged about seeing two guys kissing, I don’t think it’s drawing too long a bow to suggest that his religion has a part in that.

  • spanishbride

    Three days ago ISIS announced that they were going to attack Florida. The gay club is in Florida.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/06/isis-announced-florida-attack-three-days-ago/

    • biscuit barrel

      is that reliable ? The links go back to people who dont really know these things

  • Jannie

    My comment left on Stuff.co.nz:
    “My heart goes out to those affected, but can anyone honestly say they’re surprised by this? We have to start waking up”

    Stuff has not published this comment.

    Another comment that Stuff has decided it’s ok to publish:
    “The US created terrorists – what goes round comes round”

    Well done Stuff, you’re enabling the Terrorist narrative whilst silencing the opposition.

  • RockinBob625

    Fair enough to call a spade a spade, and this has all the hallmarks to Islamic terrorism. However Trumps ban would have achieved nothing, as the shooter was born and bred in USA, as have been so many others in the US including the 2009 Fort Hood shooting.

    • Wheninrome

      The word “sleeper” springs to mind.

    • spanishbride

      He cannot shut the stable door after the horse has bolted but he can stop buying horses.

      • Bluemanning

        Vet and stop the imams who influence gullible people into becoming jahadist terrorists. Born and bred in the USA is irrelevant if they follow the Islamic sharia teachings and are open to terrorist teachings IMO.

      • Seriously?

        But can he stop buying horses? He is yet to explain how.

        His, I will ban all Muslims from entering the US until we sort this out rhetoric no doubt has popular appeal, and indeed has some sense to it. But I still don’t understand how he plans to do it.

        If you ask people to self-identify as a Muslim, knowing they will be denied entry if they say they are, that may weed out a few but I suspect the more problematic ones are unlikely to put their hand up.

        In the meantime what is the effect on might-be-terrorists that are already in the US like the one today (or the ones in California)? I fear it may act as a further call to action.

        I do like that Trump calls the issue for what it is, but his approach seems more about winning votes than anything else.

        • spanishbride

          Yes he is all about winning votes no doubt about that. He actually was a right prat when the draw Muhammad contest was attacked by a Muslim terrorist. Instead of standing up for Americans free speech and right to hold their contest he blamed them for provoking the terrorist.

          Ironically now Hillary is talking about Trumps’ rhetoric provoking more terrorist attacks.

          The reality is that as much as Americans would like to think that they have some control over Islamic terrorism they don’t. No matter what they say the attacks will keep happening. All they can do is to build a fence ( restrict immigration ) and hope that the ‘ extremists ‘ they have already let into their country will not spread to plague proportions.

          Even if immigrants lie about being Muslim it will prevent them from attending Mosques and wearing Hijabs etc as that would reveal their lie and get them deported so it should have a ” chilling ‘ effect ;)

          • Seriously?

            I’m still not sure I buy it, but if they end up with a Trump presidency I hope you’re right. The present policies have failed to help, so maybe it is time for something different.

            Whatever happens, the world is going to remain a dangerous place for the next few generations.

            We are lucky to live where we do.

  • Cadwallader

    I heard the “Mad Butcher” living up to his name this morning. He was speaking to Paul Henry about the latest shootings. The Butcher believes it is because Americans are stupid re their gun laws. Maybe Americans are stupid, but these shootings were effected by Islamic terrorism. Fewer guns in circulation will not halt terrorism.

    • sandalwood789

      Correct. They will simply use knives instead (as we have seen in the knife attacks over in Israel in the last few months).

  • FreeMack

    If a drunk driver kills someone they don’t call it a motor vehicle incident, they call it a drunk driving incident because motivation matters, not method.
    Why did he do it? Because he is following the teachings of his religion, not because he owns a gun.

    • biscuit barrel

      50 people dead, over 50 wounded, THATS gun violence too, when its an assault rifle which specifically designed to kill people.
      It has no other purpose.
      Unlike a car, unlike a kitchen knife, unlike an axe.

      • Mark

        It does not need another purpose to justify its existence or possession,the only time it is dangerous is in the hands of an end user.
        You can wish guns away as hard as you like,they are not the problem.If your wish was granted & you could push a button & make them vanish the world would not be a better place for thugs,tyrants & bullies would still try to impose their will on the vulnerable.
        Guns,specifically handguns but also assault rifles strengthen Mankind.

  • Toasty

    Interestingly Stuff had comments available on some articles about this and then they were removed. I think a lot of people were starting to ask why the Islamic connection never gets mentioned.

    • Jannie

      Yup, they really don’t like any mention of Islam for some reason.
      It seems like they view “giving the facts about Islamic doctrines” on the same level as “hate speech”.

      • biscuit barrel

        Its ISIS doctrines not ‘islamic’ ones

        • Jannie

          Are you being ironic?

          • Sailor Sam

            No he is not.
            The Q’ran tells Muslims to lie to unbelievers, in order to mislead them about the real aims of their religion.
            So when an Imam says to a westren “journalist” the he abhors this sort of violence, he is lying through his back teeth.
            He wants the journalist to believe him, that suits the Islamic narrative.
            That is why “mainstream muslims” will keep telling us that they are adherents to the religion of peace, when the opposite as per ISIS doctrine is the real truth.
            And yes, I have read the Q’ran.

        • Crowgirl

          They are one and the same. Isis follows islamic doctrine to the letter.

  • North Shore Panda

    A McCully-endorsed headline might read: “103 Gay People Fall After Being Hit By Bullets Released From Weapon Held By American Man Whose Actions Are Deplorable”.

  • cows4me

    The political ramifications will be huge. I very much doubt the American people will be happy to be told once again this is a hate crime and a gun control issue. The leftist ninnies will have to dance on a head of a pin to make hay out of this. Crooked Hillary will be in a dilemma but in a way they are makers for their own misfortunes, political correctness can only work for so long then reality comes back to bite.

    • iera

      Hillary Clinton @HillaryClinton
      “Let’s be clear: Islam is not our adversary. Muslims are peaceful and tolerant people and have nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism.” 7:57 AM – 19 Nov 2015

      And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch – Matthew 15:14

      Of course Clinton and Obama are most likely fully aware, not blind, which is much worse

      • cows4me

        They’ve made their bed iera, they’ll have to lie in it.

        • KatB

          I’m worried we’ve got lots of people here trying to change the sheets on my bed too. I don’t want somebody else making my bed for me and I’m worried it’s slowly happening. We’ll all be off to bed and find out we’ve been short sheeted.

      • biscuit barrel

        George Bush immediately after 9/11
        “The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends. It is not our many Arab friends.”

        • kereru

          Two sides of the same coin, that’s all. Bush and Clinton, both good ‘ole Southern boys, both at Yale, both members of the Skull & Bones Society – political opponents, perhaps, but firm friends from way back. Don’t be fooled.

          • biscuit barrel

            You forgot one?
            Clinton was also a member of the Order of DeMolay, a youth group affiliated with Freemasonry . (humour)

  • Kiwikea

    Picking they will frame this as “Mentally ill man commits crime due to soft gun laws”.
    Unless it’s Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi himself shooting people, it’s always someone who is “mentally ill.”

  • Wheninrome

    This individual’s wife has now claimed “he beat me” surprise, surprise.

  • Rebecca

    Trump is right about the M & M’s
    Go on let them in – but 10 out of the pack with kill you, your children or your friends – but go most of them wont so don’t worry – what could possible go wrong
    Wake up people – we don’t need them in this country – let’s hope we do a through job of understanding exactly who we let in.
    What value you do they bring to NZ – bugger all I would suggest

  • quantummechanics66

    This is Islamic terrorism, 100%, only Obama and democrats all over the place cannot say this. Trump is right and Hillary was relying on his vote in November.

    • Jannie

      You can almost guarantee the false moral outrage from Democrats about Trump “politicizing” this, despite the fact their pathetic refusal to identify the enemy is much more harmful to western civilization.

    • Sailor Sam

      On Channel7 here in Oz this morning the called it a “lone wolf” attack.
      But the IS connection was very much highlighted.

  • Bob Dazzler

    They bring nothing but ignorance and hatred of our way of life.

  • HunuaRanger

    Trump is wrong, there is no such thing as a radical Islam.

  • Damon Mudgway

    It all begs the question. Where is your god now? Was it the time for these gay men to be called to their saviour? Face it, there is no God, and if there is, or ever was, he has long forgotten this mortal soil. He doesn’t care. It’s mankind and the nature of chaos that shapes the future.

    I am thankful that there is still good in this world. That humanity’s dark side can be overcome by light.

    And if by some remote chance there is a god, and by his grace I get to meet him, I’m gonna kick hard in the mummy-daddies and tell him how much of an evil prat he really is.

    • Bryan

      “the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked “and while he could control us all, God gives all the free will to turn our backs on his good counsel and even to not even believe he exists, He does care but sometimes we don’t realize his face in the people he sends.and neither did they when Jesus was among them. “he came to his own but they received him not” and in 2016 nothing has changed.

    • SaggyNaggy

      …or you could say this is God’s judgment on teh gayz. Either opinion would be theologically foolish. God doesn’t micromanage people. They make their own decisions for the most part, and sometimes despite His best efforts and direst warnings, they are evil and horrid.

      “There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

    • LesleyNZ

      Where does the dark side come from Damon and where does the light come from? And how do you determine what is dark and what is light? And where does good come from and how do we know what “good” is? Where does bad come and how do we know what “bad” is?

      • Damon Mudgway

        Evolution Lesley, good ol’ evolution. I tend to believe in a creator, though have no idea how to perceive such an entity. But I have no trouble believing we’re all just worm food waiting to happen. An agnostic atheist, that’s me.

        Those who do have ‘faith’ are fine by me as long as they don’t want me to share in it. I think religious people (like my Mum) do take comfort in believing there is something more at the end of our journey on earth. And I would never try to dissuade anyone from their views, as long as they did not impact on me.

        • kereru

          A bleak prospect indeed, and happily human beings are more than flesh and blood. There is no purpose in evolution for human minds to be able to think in the abstract, compose music or write and produce books, or paint masterpieces, or make beautiful objects which delight the senses, or seek to conduct experiments to understand the priciples of science. All these, and far more, are beyond the scope of mere animals, however much they may have adapted to their environments.

          We believe we have understood the mechanism but what of the agency? Nothing can be designed without a designer, whether it is your watch or the universe. And since there is order in creation, demonstrated by laws of physics and highly complex mathematics, there must have been a superior mind to have started the whole thing off in the first place. Inert materials stay inert – what could possibly have triggered them off to evolve in such a profusion of life forms, intricate in function and design, interdependent on other life forms, so finely tuned that they are able to function? Francis Collins, former Director of the Human Genome Project and an atheist, eventually realised that the human genome was so inexplicably complex that it could never have just ‘happened’ and evolved – and started to question his former conclusions. He also found, as have many scientists before him, that there is no conflict between science and God. They are complementary, but deal with different aspects of life, the physical and the metaphysical.

          It’s not a matter of ‘religion’ or religious practice. I dislike ‘religion’ too. But God is knowable, wants to be known and can easily be found if we are interested in moving beyond what is simply observable and material.

  • David

    The religion of peace strikes again… ?????

    • waldopepper

      strikes “yet” again.

  • Tony

    The press are again spinning this . They do not get the twitter comments in chronological order. The first comment from Trump “Horrific incident in FL. Praying for all the victims & their
    families. When will this stop? When will we get tough, smart &
    vigilant?” but this was not shown to be the first comment! Then the various political messages. Misrepresentation becoming the norm for papers all over the world including the Washington Post.

    • Observer

      The US media will do anything to stop Trump. Reddit has also been removing comments that mention the religious background.

    • Keanne Lawrence

      CNN covered this and also that Obabble could on get to call it “terror” which would certainly have been for the crowd being gunned down. The subsequent response from Donald Trump was for him to step down for rejecting the truth.
      Not something Obabble is familiar with consolidated by his endorsement of Clinton.

  • ross

    Good! This slaughter in the US will increase Trump’s chance of being elected president. The leftie politicians can bugger off.

    • SaggyNaggy

      The ends justify the means, do they? And people get grouchy when I compare Trumpanzees to the Nazis…

      • ross

        Trump or his supporters didn’t kill these gays, it was a bloody Muslim fanatic. Get it?

        • SaggyNaggy

          No, but you seem delighted it happened. I’m just taking your comment at face value. If it was an attempt at sarcasm or some other form of humour, it was lost on me. Fifty people lost their lives, and you’re pleased about that, because you think it helps Trump. If people being slaughtered helps Trump, then the more the merrier eh?

          I’d suggest showing some class and basic human decency, but we are talking about Trump and his goons, so why would I bother? I hope you never have to suffer someone’s schadenfreude because they thought your suffering would help some political cause of theirs.

  • Left Right Out

    I heard plenty complaining that this guy had been on a watch list and spoken to by the FBI… and why hadn’t they got him before this happened…..

    I just wonder if those same people complaining are the very same ones who harp on about civil liberties and want “mass” surveillance stopped and side with the likes of snowden and co.

    There is a reason for collecting data and if your not a bad bugger the data is dismissed

    • Bryan

      they last spoke to him in 2014 two years ago so any contact with fbi has not been recent

  • spanishbride

    I cannot confirm the authenticity of this FB post but time will soon tell us if it was accurate.It appears that there was more than one terrorist involved in the massacre and they have gotten away.

    For further details go here
    http://silenceisconsent.net/this-screenshot-from-fb-is-uploaded-to-our-website-so-it-cant-be-deleted/#sthash.SXDcJDpP.dpbs

    • Paul Marsden

      Some of the first tweets posted on the BBC news site last evening, apparently from those inside the club, confirmed that there were at least x 2 shooters.

  • old school

    Just watch as the FBI bends over backward to make this anything but a terrorist/religious attack.

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