Poms vote to Brexit, Porridge Wogs want to stay

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The EU referendum results aren’t yet final but it is almost certain that it is for Brexit.

The BBC and ITV have declared Leave wins, as results continue to show a much stronger Leave vote in electorates that supported leaving than Stay votes in those electorates that voted stay.

All major outlets are now calling it for Leave.

Only Scotland massively supported staying in the EU and now they will likely leave the UK. The Poms will be extremely happy if the Porridge Wogs leave. Labour will be gutted though as it is their stronghold.  

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Only Winston Peters predicted a Brexit, with both John Key and Andrew Little wishing the UK to remain in the EU.

The problem with the EU is that it started as a trade pact and morphed into unelectable government with no ability for voters to remove the bureaucrats and politicians.

If the EU had remained as a trade pact, without the extra level of government they created, then it may well have survived.

This vote will be the beginning of the end of the EU. I expect France, Spain and Greece will follow in short order.

What will be interesting to see is whether or not David Cameron survives now as PM. Boris Johnson gave as sure a signal as any that there will be a coup when he signed a letter of support in David Cameron as PM. Cameron stacked his reputation on Remain and he has lost.

The UK is in for a rocky road in coming months but the people have spoken and it is time to Brexit.

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  • Wayne Hodge

    This is a very bad day for UK and neither side has won. Indeed it may well be that the winners will in time be seen as the losers. I suspect many glib assumptions made by each side will shortly be seen as wrong. I further suspect that some in Brussels will seek vengeance.

    • Ross

      I am confused as to why you think this is bad for the UK?

      • Wayne Hodge

        Economically this will be bad. I suspect the City of London will lose jobs and that much future direct investment will be lost. Unlike many I fail to see UK securing a Norway type deal.

        • Ross

          When you say the “City of London” are you talking about the borough, or banking jobs in general?

        • Totara

          With the steady incremental erosion of UK independence, the City was doomed to becoming increasingly irrelevant in the financial world, with New York becoming ever more bloated.

          • Ross

            I think you’ll find London is still regarding as the banking capital of the world.

          • Totara

            My choice of words was poor. The City would have been on a path of steady decline.

        • sandalwood789

          I disagree.

          The UK will now be free of *vast* swathes of EU law and bureaucracy. That will make UK companies *much* more competitive.

          Remember – Switzerland isn’t in the EU and not being in it hasn’t hurt *them*.

        • The Fat Man

          So a few people who shuffle paper around and do not make anything will be out of a job.

      • The Fat Man

        I am confused as how this will be bad for NZ or Australia.

    • Raibert

      Your last sentence says it all (Brussels will seek vengeance) so much for self determination within these types of organisation. I think they will have enough on their hands trying to keep their jobs in a shrinking EU.
      What I have found interesting is how many NZers were supporting the stay campaign but would want NZ to be a republic.

      • The Fat Man

        Me to it was bad for NZ and OZ when they joined the failed experiment. So how is it going to bad for us now they have left.

      • simon

        Of all the arguments to stay in, the “but they’ll be mean to us if they leave” line has to be the most odious. Sounds like Neville Chamberlain

    • George Carter

      I think this is a great day for Great Britain and I won’t be surprised if a few others start pulling away including France. It’s not as if they’re geographically moving they’re just saying we’ll have no more crap from Brussels, we’re not going to prop up the lazy parts of Europe and we’ll let in who we want in not every bugger that feels like it!

      • Miss McGerkinshaw

        “…they’re just saying we’ll have no more crap from Brussels, we’re not going to prop up the lazy parts of Europe and we’ll let in who we want in not every bugger that feels like it!”

        I think that is part of the problem. For a long time it was a union of more or less equals but then as more and more of ‘lazy parts’ got on board and the rest got fed up.

        Also, as stated in the article, ‘it started as a trade pact and morphed into unelectable government with no ability for voters to remove the bureaucrats and politicians’ and people feel more and more disempowered.

      • Wayne Hodge

        As always be careful what you wish for.

        We have now moved as the Chinese say ‘into interesting times’

        • Miss McGerkinshaw

          Still think it is a good result but agree, the times will certainly be interesting, if not always pleasant, but continue to believe the final outcome will be positive.

    • Disinfectant

      Simply put, I disagree with you.

      • Wayne Hodge

        Your prerogative

    • Dumrse

      There two sides involved and one of them will be declared the winner. Somebody is bound to write a book of the glib assumptions, it wouldn’t surprise.

    • sandalwood789

      A “bad day for the UK”, being able to set their own laws?
      I beg to differ.

      When the Eurocrats can declare that you will not be allowed to have a vacuum-cleaner that is more powerful than “x” watts (I kid you not, that’s what they did) then you know that you’re in an outfit that has gone power-crazy.

      The Eurocrats can (at present) pass laws for all countries in the EU and the *citizens of those countries have no come-back* on whatever they decide to do.

      • JEL51

        Also, dictate to growers this far away what we will be allowed to do in order to sell our produce to them. They deserve to be taken down. If the market do not like what I grow, they will tell me and I am prepared to accept that, but not from those Eurocrats.

  • Grizz30

    It opens the door for others to leave the EU and perhaps setting up a competing trade block without all the other strings attached. However until that happens it may be a lonely time for Britain.

    • Ross

      Do you really think the EU zone will stop trading with Britain now?

      • Grizz30

        No. But they will put up barriers and Britain will be largely working on their own without many like minded friends. So long as Britain wants to buy stuff from Europe and holiday in its resorts then Europe will keep trading, but it will not necessarily be the same.

        • Miss McGerkinshaw

          Well didn’t we go through similar when ‘Mother Britain’ cut our apron strings and we lost a lot of guaranteed business? And wasn’t it for the best in the end? Yes difficult time ahead perhaps but my belief the end result will be positive.

          • Grizz30

            For us it was for the best. To start off we should trade with Asia/pacific before Britain, and we are far better with diversified range of trading partners. However we paid for it in the short term. It triggered a nasty recession and brought us Muldoonism. However Britain needs to be careful how they play this as they may lose trade with their closest neighbours.

          • Rebecca

            New Zealand was the 3rd wealthiest country in the world in the good old days when Britain bought all the lamb and Anchor products NZ wanted to send their way. Why did they stop again?

          • Ross

            Can I have a source for that statistic? By what metric were we the “third wealthiest country” on planet Earth?

          • Grizz30

            At the time when Argentina was the wealthiest.

          • Rebecca

            Google is your friend. Certainly NZ had the 3rd highest standard of living in the world in 1953, when wealth equated to standard of living and hoarding was uncool and the oil shocks were still to come.

          • Ross

            A metric of standard of living is quite different to wealth.

          • Rebecca

            Nice one-liner (which is against WO rules, fwiw.) Recommend you consult Google for a definition of standard of living:

            Standard of living refers to the level of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities available to a certain socioeconomic class in a certain geographic area.

            I think I see the word “wealth” first in the list, with the others largely determined by wealth in NZ..

          • Ross

            Some people are able to make succinct points in one sentence. Given I was able to articulate a response into eleven words doesn’t mean I have broken WO rules. Weird point nevertheless…

            I think the metric you’re looking for is GDP / capita. And yes indeed, we were #3 in 1953. So given that’s the basis for your argument, and given that the highest gdp/capita in the world right now is Qatar with US 132k/person, I’d like to know just how you’d go about making NZ #3 on the list again? Of course the easy answer is to remove 1.23 million people.

            Thanks for the passive aggressiveness though! ;)

          • Rebecca

            It’s not the basis of my argument, it’s a minor nit you pounced on. My argument was that NZ was doing OK when Britain bought lots of NZ produce. And then it all slowed down. In context, a succinct fellow surely can see the point?

          • Ross

            Maybe the 1950s in NZ weren’t the glory days you perhaps think they were.

            E.g. by the end of the decade, 54 percent of dwellings had the sole of shared use of a refrigerator. 57 percent had the sole use of a washing machine. By 1960, 14 percent of dwellings still didn’t have piped water and 19 percent didn’t have a flushing toilet.

            So if you still want to maintain that NZ was the third wealthiest nation in the world based on your metric of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities, then I will just have to politely disagree.

          • Rebecca

            Still stuck on this nit? Sheesh, everybody had black and white TVs in the ’60s and shared a family car into the ’70s and ’80s. Does that mean that standard of living was low, because expectations are higher today?

            But what does this have to do with the price of fish in Truro? I’ve no interest in rebutting sophistry or semantics in a WO blog article about Brexit.

          • Ross

            I wasn’t the one claiming NZ was once the third wealthiest country in the world. I just asked for clarification about your claim, and now have more insight into the price of fish and the correlation between that and the Brexit than I do about your outlandish claim.

          • Rebecca

            You’ve said yourself that NZ had the 3rd highest GDP in 1953, not that GDP by itself says much about quality of life, so what are you objecting to again?

            If it helps: many of us see a link between NZ’s sliding fortunes in the 1970s, and the loss of our great UK customer.

        • Ross

          Barriers? Like what?

          E.g. I can’t see German car manufacturers being told they can’t export cars to the UK (one of their biggest markets) anymore.

          The UK economy is the 5th largest in the world. I can’t begin to fathom the knee-jerk reaction that would have to take place for the EU to snub that market.

        • Rebecca

          France and most recently the Netherlands now wants a referendum. As WO observes, French experts say their vote probably also would be to leave.

          I know and understand all the doomsday predictions for Brexit, including a falling pound driven by selling in the middle of the night UK time (of no conceivable value to those who own the currency, so watch this space.) But I’m also drawn to the viewpoint that the UK has shouted out that the Emperor has no clothes. And now the French and others are peering at the emperor too.

          • Grizz30

            It’s easier for Britain to leave as they do not share a common currency. Yes it is fair to say with other breakaway countries a looser but better European partnership could form.

            I think some of the currency devaluation was caused by traders making big bets on Britain remaining and losing….. badly. The pound and markets will settle before long.

          • Rebecca

            As another poster observes, a low pound is a boost for UK industry and jobs. Maybe a few more Poms will need to holiday in the Southwest rather than on the Mediteranean, but the Basil Fawltys will be pleased about that too.

  • Wasapilot

    Why on earth would Greece want to leave the EU, surely without European and other state bank support they would completely collapse.

    I would be interested to know the reasons that Greecse would leave the EU

    • NahYeah

      Greece has been held to ransom by the EU. It is a small country, with little land and therefore little produce. It’s main activities are it’s port and tourism. The EU puts very strict rules on how much Greece can charge for being one of the major ports in the union, pretty much break-even at best, they are forced to keep port charges down, for the sake of the EU. Hence their income is determined by Angela Merkel. In addition, Angela tells them that being one of the major ports, they had to accept all the refugees, and under the rules, those refugees have to remain and settle at their first port of call (until Germany finally agreed to take some, but only for a little while). Greece has been put in a position where they cannot earn any money to get out of the hole they are in.

      • Wasapilot

        Thanks for that. So what would happen to the massive Greek debt if they left I wonder.

        • Totara

          Simple. Debts that are impossible to repay get defaulted on. The lenders get burnt and learn not to be so foolish. Nobody else will lend to the borrower, so they have to change their improvident ways and live within their means.

          In the days before bankruptcy laws, debtors ended up in debtors’ prison. It was a trap that they could never escape. What is happening to Greece today is similar to debtors’ prison in that they are being stripped of all of their assets.

          • The Fat Man

            Concur Greece should leave, take the medicine, reform their ways and learn to live within their means.

            Rather than an inter generational debt slave to the EU.

    • one for the road

      Greeks didnt have the spine to leave, they had too many of their own problems, they just love all at support from EU..

  • JohnO

    A great day for the U.K. Their immigration policies wont be set by Merkel, Germany can let their Islamic colonists move out of Germany with an EU passport but they will not be going into Britain. A small victory for common sense.

    • Ross

      Maybe it’s the beginning of the end of all the PC nonsense the EU dictates? I certainly hope so!

      • Isherman

        Personal opinion, the EU will never reform itself to any meaningful degree, which would effectively mean gutting it…this organisation, the EU machine is HUGE…and I think it will go down fighting till it falls apart.

        • Ross

          How anyone thought a group of nations sharing the same bit of connected land could get along had rocks in their head for starters. They’re better to go back to the EEC model of establishing trade etc rather than stupid policy rules for all.

    • SnapperW

      Free Britannia! What a great day! Almost feel like moving back there to participate!

    • one for the road

      Those new immigrants with a EU passport can just go to Ireland (and maybe Scotland in the future) and crawl through the border (fence which they will have tobuild)

      • kayaker

        Never think it’s easy to take those Scots on. Think Brave Heart!

        • Boondecker

          That was Mel Gibson’s romantic view of Scotland. They came crawling back to England five centuries later to join up. The Scots come and go. The English quietly laugh.

          • kayaker

            Give me a Scot over a Pom any day. Sorry Poms.

          • Boondecker

            Well, I’m 50% Welsh so I’m happy with the Poms. My grandmother was a Craig from Scotland though. My grandfather English. I was born in British colonial Africa. So, I am considered a true British mongrel.

            You’ll just have to put up with me the way I come.

          • kayaker

            You should get a DNA – sounds like a true tapestry.

          • GoingRight

            I am half and half!

        • hookerphil

          I’m exactly 50% Scot 1840 & Pom 1876 so………..

          • XCIA

            I am 50% Scot and 50% Irish. Some say RLS wrote the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde with myself in mind.

        • NahYeah

          Yes, I am thinking Braveheart, and now, thanks to you, I have an image in my head of a row of men lifting up their kilts to scare off the enemy. On the other hand, that may well work in this case.

      • one for the road

        Scotland in the EU will be required to let in all these new immigrants, no doubt they will be happy to send them onto England through a border..

        • Red_NZ

          may be Hadrians Wall will have to be rebuilt, but on the current boarder lines rather than its former line.

          • Miss Phit

            Trump might know a builder who can knock up a wall or two.

      • JohnO

        Neither Scotland nor Ireland in the EU is going to want a queue of Islamics permanently waiting on the UK border. The Eu is going to have to lose either their EU passport or Merkels immigration policy to survive.

        • one for the road

          Wont be the Uk after they leave and join the EU, nothing united left!

  • Nebman

    I don’t know enough of how the EU works to comment with any authority but political power should really only with a mandate from the masses so to speak. If the masses say we want out then respecting that decision is fairly important I would have thought.

    The figure I heard today that Britain’s share of cost to the EU is 350 million pound a week which if correct is a mind boggling figure. How can that even be possible?

    Cameron should resign or if he’s smart, call a snap election and see if he still has support and test the waters.

    Either way, it’s kind of cool to see democracy working on such a huge scale.

    • one for the road

      The quicker they get it all done, the sooner they will be saving 350million per week… But it will cost them a fair amount of new money in meantime to get it all done..

    • Wasapilot

      Not sure why a snap election, or resignation from Cameron is a good idea. They went into the last election promising the referendum I recall, perhaps wrongly. Yes Cameron wanted to stay in the EU, but in a referendum his vote is of the same value as any other.

      I think a period of calm and stability in government is needed. Boris will be the next PM I think, just not straight away.

      • Nebman

        My comment about Cameron resigning comes back to the mandate from the masses thing. It’s hard to see how he he has a moral claim on running the show when the people have spoken and voted against his wishes. Interestingly they also voted against the wishes of UK Labour while they were at it….

        Calm and stability while a great idea in principle are now gone while the post Brexit environment is negotiated.

        I think the Poms are in for a period of time much like we went through after SMP’s were binned and the reforms of the Lange Government.

        Having said that, it would not surprise me to watch various Governments around the world fall over themselves to start negotiating deals with the Brits. They’re still a huge market and without the restrictions of the EU getting in the way, I think a few are going to do exceptionally well out of this. Be nice to see it spread round passed the speculators though.

        Fun times!

  • kayaker

    “The Poms will be extremely happy if the Porridge Wogs leave”… being married to a Scot as I am, said Porridge Wogs (lol) will be extremely happy to be shot of The Poms.

    • Disinfectant

      Scotlands motive for independence was all about the oil money. They wanted it all for themselves.

      With oil prices having collapsed, there us no way that they would now want to be independent.

    • Dairy_Flat

      Being a porridge wog myself I was very disappointed to see my countrymen align themselves with Brussels rather than their natural allies.

  • Nebman

    Just what we need – a united Europe under strong German leadership….oh hang on….

    • Boondecker

      This leaves the Germans as the only country in Europe paying its way (as well as paying for others). Their club is now starting to fall apart. They will be most upset. Especially Merkel. Yikes – there’s nothing like a woman scorned!

      • Miss McGerkinshaw

        Expect the ‘divorce’ proceedings to get messy!!

      • NahYeah

        It’s easy to pay your own way, when you took all of the EU’s money to pay for the re-unification and modernisation of your own country. Germany used EU funds to totally rebuild East Germany, and then re-unite it. Now East Germany is a major part of Germany’s economy. Germany has never offered to repay what it took from the EU for that humungous gift to itself. And then when other little EU members need financial help, Germany tells them to get stuffed.

        • Wheninrome

          So who is a clever girl then, certainly not pretty polly.

  • Boondecker

    Fantastic! It’s a great day for those of use who recall why Britain joined with Europe in the first place. Back then, no one in their right mind in the UK could have imagined just how unanswerable European dictatorial bureaucracy was to take over the original intent. This is a victory for common sense. France will follow in time, as will Italy.

    A great day!

    • Timebandit

      They can sell bent bananas again!!!

      • Isherman

        There’s a killing to be made in + 1600 watt Vacuum cleaners and probably hair dryers too.

        • BMSKiwi

          Brussels deferred their legislation on toaster wattage to avoid pissing of the Brits. Too late boys!

          Also btw Wayne – the Banana thing is fact. It is described in Eu reg 2257/94, passed in 1994. FORTUNATELY it was only applied to class 2 bananas, so not quite so onerous as first feared.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Regulation_(EC)_No._2257/94

          Ed sp.

      • Wayne Hodge

        The banana canard is a myth and has been relentlessly exposed as such.

      • NahYeah

        I’m preparing 10,000 cannisters of Non-EU air as we speak!

  • Disinfectant

    Throughout the Western Democratic world we have seen power transition from the electorate to the
    Bureacracy/Executive.

    No where has this been more evident than in Brussels.

    But we see it here in our own Local Authorities. CEO’s of councils have become very powerful. In many instances they have been granted enormous delegated powers to spend massive sums of ratepayers money. Time and time again the electorate feel powerless about doing anything.

    The fight back has started, and all those seeking public office better have a policy to reign in the Executive.

  • zotaccore

    A good decision. It will be good for UK trade because they won’t be glue-bound to Europe which is falling apart at the seams anyway. The UK can now pursue FTA’s without Brussels boxing them in the face at every step. The Germans are unhappy of course, but no surprises there. Merkel will be spinning out.

    • Ross

      Plus they’ve just achieved what every central bank in the world wants to do – devalue the crap out of their currency.. their manufacturers and exporters will be loving this!

    • one for the road

      Come on back to good old Nz then, we can sell them more meat, dairy and wine…

      • Disinfectant

        And don’t forget our high tech IT, marine, aviation, film and horticultutal sectors.

        • JEL51

          Butter, wool, and as much Pork as the require to cleanse the system.

  • GoingRight

    We are very pleased with the result. Let’s hope John Key is one of the first to knock on their door and offer a free trade agreement so they get some stability soon. The nay sayers will be pointing to the drop in the pound and the volatility of the markets for a few months but in time we believe things will settle down and the UK will go from strength to strength. I wonder what we shall call the UK with a possibility of Northern Ireland joining the South and Scotland going back into the EU. There will be just England and Wales left!

    • Timebandit

      Lets hope the word ‘Union’ is not involved

  • rangitoto

    Arise Sir Nigel. Good to see the majority of Brits are relatively sane.

  • Holdonamo

    06.21am British Time
    Geert Weilders, the Dutch parliamentary party leader, has called for the Netherlands to hold a referendum on its EU membership.

  • sandalwood789

    Fantastic news!

    I thought the Brits wouldn’t be up to it and would vote “stay” – I’ve never been more happy to be proved wrong!

    Well done to Nigel Farage and the “Leave” campaign. This will be a huge smack in the face to the Left and their dreams of Eurocrat control over everything.

    I’ll be having a drink for the “Leave” folks…… :)

    • JEL51

      I just got back & unpacked the groceries, opened the wine and came straight to WO. What a great day and I am not even a Pom.

    • NahYeah

      Me too, and I’m cracking a Guiness….cheers Scotland and Ireland.” (ducking for cover now)

  • Disinfectant

    What an exciting day.

    We have all just witnessed a major political event which will be read about in the history books forever.

  • symgardiner

    This is good news. Pity the kids running the FOREX trades got panicked. The bosses will sort things out over the next week. A very good time to buy some pounds.

  • Brent Ancap

    I’m very glad to see the UK politically secede from the EU .

    People need to understand two things:

    1) There’s going to be a period of economic adjustment. Whatever economic bonds are severed and reconnected because of this political separation, it’s going to take some time for it to work its way out. So there may appear some short term pain for the UK as these economic agreements have to be reset. Remain camp may point to this as proof of failure.

    2) This doesn’t mean UK will become a free market paradise. It’s entirely possible that UK could go down the path toward socialism and Keynesianism. If this is the unfortunate case, the UK will suffer greatly in the future. This would not be the fault of brexiting, but the fault of adopting bad policy. But Remainers may try to blame the Brexit for it.

    Good luck to them. I hope they make the most of the opportunity.

    • BMSKiwi

      It doesn’t matter what remain say now. “I told you so” will not win any elections, because they cannot do anything about it.
      Democracy is the most important thing, far outweighing anything else in this debate.
      The UK is no more likely to fall into a socialist trap than NZ or AU or any other normal country, and if they do they’ll learn and muddle out of it like nations have done for ~200 years.
      Welcome back to the real world Britain! Future looks bright!

      • Brent Ancap

        I think it does matter.

        The public at large are relatively ignorant and gullible, in spite of the recent vote. If the UK faces economic pains in the short-term, the general public is liable to fall for the apocalyptic soothsayers from the Remain camp. Then it is possible that the UK public may elect politicians to “fix” the economy. Socialism doesn’t need to be applied directly. It would come about through incrementalism. That’s why I think people need to understand the short-term implications of this move.

      • Brent Ancap

        Also, democracy is overrated. It got the UK into the EU and just barely got it out.

        • BMSKiwi

          Voters aren’t stupid. The UK voted in to save itself from a terrifying industrial decline. It didn’t help, so they tried Thatcher instead.
          But it was the right call at the time.

          • BMSKiwi

            I should say, some voters aren’t stupid.

          • Brent Ancap

            The great majority of the public is ignorant of economics. Yet, they vote in politicians on the basis of their economic policies without fully comprehending their economic consequences. Don’t be so naive.

          • BMSKiwi

            Its not naivety. There are certain nations in this world which have enough self-reliant voters that democracy can work. If you have those values, you’ll vote alright regardless of education or hi-falutin’ economic theories.
            New Zealand is one. Iraq is not.

          • Brent Ancap

            Democracy can never work on a large scale binding millions of people to the whims of millions more. Hans-Hermann Hoppe, in his book Democracy: The God That Failed, lays out economic and social arguments why democracy is always bound to lead to socialism.

          • BMSKiwi

            Hmm. Believe me I have no taboos around democracy.
            You’re obviously intelligent so I respect your view. But I distrust positions backed only by intellect, not evidence. That’s why I’m conservative.
            Where are all the stable, pleasant, prosperous dictatorships?

          • Brent Ancap

            It’s erroneous to think there is a conflict between “intellect” and “evidence”. Evidence always requires interpretation in order to be meaningful, which is what the “intellect” or “reason” provides.

            If someone in the days of worldwide slavery were to propose a system of a free world, he would have no “evidence” to show his objectors and slavermasters. Yet, that would no more disprove his moral argument.

            “Where are all the stable, pleasant, prosperous dictatorships?”

            What does that even mean? I’m not advocating dictatorship. You’re missing the point. My argument isn’t that we have either democracy or dictatorship. Just because you lack the imagination to think there may be another mode of social order beyond these two options doesn’t invalidate or disprove what I say.

          • Brent Ancap

            Yeah, a “terrifying industrial decline” that it brought on itself through the democrat process. Thatcher was an inevitability, I would say, given the sorry state of the economy. But to think Thatcher was voted in because the majority of people came to their senses about socialism is wrong. Socialism is still very much on the minds of a great portion of the world population. That’s why we don’t have free markets anymore.

          • BMSKiwi

            Brent, the alternative is dictatorship with you or I or someone else like us at the helm.
            While my economics would be brilliant, I am certain I would follow the same well-worn path of absolute power leading to absolute corruption. And so would you. And people that don’t understand that are part of the problem.

          • Brent Ancap

            Dictatorship of 51 people over the other 49 people is no less savage than an outright dictatorship. Democracy gives the illusion that we have control of our own destiny.

            Besides, that’s a false dichotomy. It’s not “dictatorship” vs. “democracy”. There are other forms of government that can support the private property rights without every decision requiring democracy. In fact, private property is very much threatened by democracy. If 51% deem it right to seize or prevent you from using your property, they are supreme.

          • BMSKiwi

            Your first point – not so. It only needs an 2% swing in the dictators’ opinion and the boot is on the other foot.
            If that happened with real dictatorships, Syrian would look different today.

          • Brent Ancap

            Whatever the results of today have shown, I would just disagree that it shows the supremacy of democracy. Many people today find it taboo to even question the validity and morality of democracy. Your reaction to me here kind of demonstrates the norm. I think there are real alternatives to democracy that do not require dictatorship by a few or monarchy but retain fully the right of private property. That’s all I was reacting too about your original comment about democracy.

          • BMSKiwi

            Tour last point I agree with. I think we are actually on the same side here, I appreciate your understanding of private property.
            It all hinges on the use of force and coercion.

          • Brent Ancap

            Socialism means the complete negation of private property rights in favor of government control. If you support the free market, you must support the right of private property ─ in one’s own body and resources justly acquired ─ without qualification. Democracy is necessarily at odds with the full protection of private property because the majority can force their will on property owners. This is an assault on the free market and a point in favor of socialism. Therefore, if one is to be consistent in the support of a free market economy based on every individual’s full right of private property, then one must reject a system under which this right is violated by majority rule.

    • Nebman

      Don’t forget that both Labour and the Conservatives ran a campaign on staying not leaving. I don’t see any form of Socialism in their future.

    • David Moore

      ” It’s entirely possible that UK could go down the path toward socialism and Keynesianism.”

      A country free to choose, is free to choose unwisely.

      • Brent Ancap

        I’m not against the notion of letting individuals have the freedom to choose unwisely, because that is the essence of freedom.

        But democracy doesn’t necessarily give this freedom. It really gives the majority the potential power to force socialism and Keynesianism down the throats of the rest. The majority will adopt such policies if it thinks ─ erroneously, of course ─ it will do them good. It’s our task to educate them otherwise.

        • BMSKiwi

          Brent, please lay out some basic vision for an alternative to democracy that is also non tyrannical and avoids all use of coercion.
          A Churchill quote springs to mind.

          • Brent Ancap

            You see, that’s not an argument. What you are doing is asking a loaded question and trying to pass it off as an argument against me. That’s not a valid form of argumentation.

            Let me use an extreme example to demonstrate both the invalidity and absurdity of your response:

            Imagine two slaves talking in prior to 1863:

            SLAVE 1: People own themselves and have a right to private property. This current system of slavery is totally unjustified because it violates the principles of self-ownership and property rights.

            SLAVE 2: Oh yeah? Do tell, then, what this utopian alternative world would look like, huh? Will we be able to get food, water, and shelter in your world? Also, can you also guarantee that no one else will ever try to hurt or enslave anyone else in the future? Show me exactly how this will work. Until you can show me satisfactorily, we will keep our slave system.

          • BMSKiwi

            Great thinking and interesting points. I did not mean my comment dismissively at all.
            And I know anarchy is not a new idea.
            But I also know that it is revolutionary, and that I cannot support. Politics is like toast: if you throw it up in the air, you don’t know which way up it will land. I’m not into name dropping but great minds like Freddie Hayek agree with me here.
            So work towards it by all means, but slowly slowly catchee monkey.

          • Brent Ancap

            Yeah, it’s not something I would expect to obtain in my lifetime or even the next generation’s lifetime. It’s merely a movement about ideas, about trying to promote a way of social cooperation different and an improvement on what we have. The minds of the majority of people have to change first before any lasting change can occur on a large scale.

            It’s understandable your rejection of revolutionary ideas given that you are a conservative. All I can say is that I do not, as many advocates of the system I advocate, endorse violent revolution or overthrow of government. We focus on the ideological war only, fighting unsound ideas with sound ideas.

            So if by “revolutionary” you mean violent activity, then don’t worry. Although the American revolution initially began as an ideological shift in the minds of the colonies which lead them to declare independence, they ultimately had to go to war because aggression was initiated by Great Britain.

            To the extent that we can keep government limited to its essential functions via some form or democracy/republicanism, then I will take it.

          • Brent Ancap

            But I will give you some response to the question.

            The system I advocate comes under a few names, but the most common are “anarcho-capitalism” and “private law society”.

            It’s a social order under which private property rights ─ the rights of exclusive control over one’s physical body and external resources acquired through justified means, and self-defense ─ are sacrosanct. Thus, any system of law and order to deal with interpersonal conflicts must be consistent with property rights. So taxation cannot be justified under this system. Services for law, order, and defense will thus be a function of the free market instead of a monopolistic state government.

            Simply put, the functions of law and order are provided by competing firms on the free market. Security and defense services are also offered on the free market through some kind of insurance company. These will all have to be funded through voluntarily paying customers. Democracy can be practiced privately by consenting persons, but it will not be a society-wide system anymore. Each person will be sovereign in their self-ownership and property rights, and social cooperation is achieved via trade and association on the free market.

            There is substantial and long-standing literature on the ideas of anarcho-capitalism and private law society, so this isn’t something I just pulled out of thin air.

    • CheesyEarWax

      If socialism doesn’t work for them at least they can vote to change it, under the EU they are stuck with socialism permanently.

      • Brent Ancap

        Yeah. That’s what they did in the 1970s. They voted out the socialism of the 1960s and 70s only to vote themselves into the EU. What democrats don’t seem to understand is that this futile circularity is an inherent and predictable feature of democracy, as system where a majority of idiots pull the rest of us down. I’m glad they left the EU, but I’m pessimistic as to what they will do with their re-established sovereignty. If history is a guide, it doesn’t look too good. To destroy socialism, we need to refute the doctrines of socialism, not necessarily give “the people” the power to make fatal mistakes on the behalf of everybody else.

  • The Fat Man

    The EU will show their nastiness and try and make things as difficult as they can to discourage any followers.

    They will be very worried about a domino effect.

    A big win for the little people and a big loss for Big Government, Big Business and Big Bureaucracy.

    The “Expert” Pollsters were wrong again and the other “Experts” who get it wrong more often than they get it right will be proved wrong again, life will go on.

    Those who manipulate the markets and exchange rates will be making hay with all the volatility they have encouraged. The high volumes will be bringing in a good chunk of commissions.

    • Wasapilot

      France, Spain and Holland next I wonder.

      • Tom

        And Italy! The EU can keep Greece who must be wetting themselves over this.

      • MyKillS

        I assume you mean The Netherlands. You can add Denmark and possibly Sweden from the comments heard here in the UK.

  • Bryan

    so will this see the revival of the Britain and Commonwealth as a trading body which involves a lot of countries just as big as EU

    • Tom

      I doubt that, I think trade will continue with the EU just the UK wont be ruled by the EU.

  • Cadwallader

    JK has declined to comment on Brexit just yet while the two enormous economic geniuses, Little Angry and James Shaw have spoken! Needless to say Little sees the Brexit as a negative for NZ while James Shaw is “sad.” Little would’ve said the same thing if the vote had gone the other way…he is attracted to negativity like an electro-magnet.

  • Bryan

    what would be very interesting to see of the remain voters the brakedown of the who voted and their nationalities as I would think anyone of european countries would have voted to stay so what was the actual Brits percentage of that remain vote

  • Richard McGrath

    Fantastic result. Hats off to the people of England who swung things in the right direction. Now they need to chuck out the wet Cameron and put Farage into Downing Street.

    • Cadwallader

      Maybe it is the time for the stirrings of a truly libertarian party in the UK?

      • Disinfectant

        Nigel has made a start.

        • Cadwallader

          Richard did in Masterton, Eketahuna, Carterton and other illustrious locales.

  • Disinfectant

    To all the naysayers saying that this is a bad for the U.K. and the world economy, I want to say this;

    If the fifth biggest economy in the world can’t make it, then all the others including New Zealand are doomed to failure.

    And any rational person will know that it simply won’t happen.

    • shykiwibloke

      I’m assuming a lot of the naysayers were troughers waving bye bye to EU sanctioned gravy trains.

    • sandalwood789

      Yep. Tiny little Switzerland isn’t in the EU and that hasn’t hurt *them*.

      • Aucky

        ……and neither is Norway. Europe’s second wealthiest nation after Luxembourg.

    • Tom

      I agree I think Europe needs the UK more than the other way round. The french will want to sell their wine, the Germans their BMWs so I suspect free trade may continue, What wont is the benefits for Europeans from poor countries, unbridled immigration, and really dumb rules. Your right UK is a big resilient economy. All that has to happen is the Bank of England to put interest rates up to near NZs and watch the pound recover. Europe was a great market for the UK, it was also a bureaucratic mill stone round the UKs neck! My son owns a multinational but small company but most of his trade is in the UK or in Non uk countries like USA,East Europe, South Africa , Australia and more recently NZ. Hes not the least worried.

    • CheesyEarWax

      Totally agree. The markets are down before they are adjusting to their wrong prediction. Give it a few days and the markets will see the rational economic fundamentals again.

  • NahYeah

    Open Letter to Britain: “hey old chums, remember those halcyon days when you had awesome cheap lamb, un-polluted milk and cheese, beef from the best pastures on earth, and abundant cheap kiwifruit, remember that? Well cobbers, have we got some good news for you”. Welcome back!

    • Disinfectant

      And we know that your cars are much better now.

    • Tom

      Sadly the UK exports lamb to Europe so may end up with a glut. So I dont see many benefits for Kiwis in this . It will be more difficult to work/ travel in Europe too as the UK is no longer a backdoor to europe.

      • NahYeah

        Working in England was much easier before they joined the EU. And travel, well, what difference does that make to us where we choose to arrive?

      • Miss McGerkinshaw

        Travel is only easier if you have a British passport surely?

    • Doug

      I am more thinking, remember those halcyon days when your empire was your food basket? Remember when you dropped all those nations in favour of Europe? Well now it is time to pay up… we will take your money, but it has to be good

      • NahYeah

        I know what you are saying, but that was a long time ago, and things have changed. In those days, there were trade agreements based on quotas and unit prices for various goods. Those days will never be back. This time around it will be market prices, because now there is competition, eyes wide open.

    • Aucky

      Don’t gild the lily too much. Those were the days when our freezing works were all owned by the Poms and whole fatty carcases were shipped off to the UK in Pommy owned ships (no foreign vessels allowed). To rub salt into the wound Kiwi taxpayers had to pay huge subsidies to our farmers so that the Poms could buy cheap meat at Sainsburys.

  • Woody

    Had I been voting, I think I would have been voting to leave so I am happy with the result. Interesting to listen the the TVNZ correspondent who was unable to present an unbiased report, she was clearly on the side of staying in and letting unelected bureaucrats rule the country. Lefty much.

    • Totara

      Tonight’s the fist time I’ve watched TV news for a few years. How far the level of ‘journalism’ has sunk. Silly me, I hope I won’t make that mistake again for a long time.

      • Old Kiwi

        Watched it all on BBC – I thought it was a pretty fair presentation of both side and thought compared to what would be presented here, there would be no comparison. Proved right when caught a bit of Tv1 purely for comparison.
        I was impressed with Cameron’s speech.

      • Jerseyman

        It amuses me the way the TV presenters have now resorted to interviewing other TV presenters as a way of producing so called news.
        There are few real “reporters” out there these days actually talking to the people the new is about.
        Interviewing another journalist was an absolute no-no back in the 1970s Polytech Journalist courses.

    • sarahmw

      She had no experience or knowledge, quite sad as this is an historical time. Interesting to see the older mature knowledgeable journalists on ITV. Great to watch.

  • Totara

    And David Cameron just announced he is to resign as Prime Minister.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/david-cameron-resigns-his-highs-and-lows-in-power/

  • Wheninrome

    Rights or wrongs, not living there hard to say, However the important thing here is that it has engaged the electorate, hopefully people will continue to vote to get the result they want. If you get that well and good for you, if you voted and didn’t get he desired result only then can you moan about the result.
    Wars have been fought for the freedom to vote, they continue to be fought.
    This has been a win for those wars.

  • Robert Scott

    Good to see the Conservative Party divided.

    • Tom

      It always was on this subject. I remember when we first went in . It was just as divided then. If we hadnt had a whimp like Edward Heath as PM we wouldnt have gone in. Maggie had no like for Europe!

  • Sponsz

    I had to look up that clip of Margaret Thatcher: “Rejoice, rejoice!”

    A great day for all those who love the UK.

  • Craig

    Scotland has not been a Labour stronghold for years. I think they only managed to hold one or two electorates last election in Scotland so that really is the end for their party.

    • Tom

      Yep I think Scottish independence is on the cards and that could mean passports at the Scottish border. Never thought I would see that, and I am a Scott.

    • It might not be a stronghold for Labour, but it is where most of their members and support comes from.

  • LesleyNZ

    Well that is democracy. As British politician William Wilberforce said to his peers in the late 1700’s when debating his bill on the abolition of the slave trade: “No matter how loud you shout, you will not drown out the voice of the people!”
    And then Lord Tarleton said: “People?”
    The people have spoken and God willing the sun will still rise tomorrow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dZz_gSY-_M

    • Chris M

      Now then I agree with you, I really do. I think that, for once, heart has overridden head and the ‘peasant vote’ has won through.

      However, just for a chuckle, I thought this might be how the ‘Remain’ voters might be feeling.

      https://youtu.be/VeJXm7Tquk0

    • Bryan

      i bet that has been sung in pubs all over britain tonight

    • MyKillS

      I would just like to let you know that the sun did indeed rise in the east here in the UK.

  • Robert Scott

  • Keanne Lawrence

    The old song “There’ll always be an England” might be more truer now than ever before as the Great has gone out of Great Britain as the separatism battle intensifies.
    After turning their backs on their grand land grab that became the British Commonwealth they now seem destined to exit the failing EU before the deck chairs need rearranging.
    The short term upsurge in buying English made will take a long time to match when they start paddling their own canoe.

  • CheesyEarWax

    i have no skin in this game, but this a good move for the UK and for NZ in the longer term. The UK can now have closer ties with its Commonwealth countries instead of treating them as second class citizens.

  • Greg

    Congrats to our friends in England, a great campaign for the right cause. The ‘peasants’ and ‘fringe dwellers’ have spoken. Cheers!

  • Kleinholz

    The Europe project made at least three main mistakes:

    1. What should have been a trading bloc and a group of countries doing things together that made sense as a group turned into a project that was heading for political and economic union. That was never going to work.

    2. The Euro was the nail in the economic coffin because with disunity on the local economic fronts, forcing the different economies into a common pipe sowed the seeds of destruction.

    3. Freedom of movement and the right to work and qualify for state benefits created welfare tourism. Each welfare state works only when there is a sense of community and a relative homogeneity amongst citizens; where we are in this together and can help out when needed. Welfare tourism is something different; huge movements from low to high-wage economies, especially to countries with relatively high minimum wages was never going to work.

    The UK had to leave. The politics of that became inevitable. A unified Europe is now a doomed project. A nice idea but the rest of Europe won’t survive without a significant pull-back. The sooner the remaining 26 countries realise that, the better if anything is to survive in the long term.

  • Cadwallader

    This is a time to reflect:
    I am old enough to remember the sense of betrayal and isolation NZ had when the Brits turned to Europe and cold-shouldered the old but loyal empire. Will they revisit the former colonies with positive intentions?
    No matter how much politicians wish things to be, the litmus test rests with the constituents.
    It continues to be a phenomenon that the USA continues to be a cohesive country despite its diversities and economic strains. The European community didn’t get close to this.
    If the “experts” can’t pick Brexit is Trump now a possible favourite in the Presidential race?
    Just wondering…with the assistance of a red or two.

    • BMSKiwi

      Me too. Love drunk Indyref Fridays.
      And I was born in 1989…

  • sandalwood789

    The bottom line – the Brits have had enough of unelected Eurocrats deciding immigration policies for them and being flooded with immigrants (many of whom follow a certain hostile ideology).

    They’ve had enough of Eurocrats dumping thousands of laws and regulations on them, even including a limit on how powerful vacuum-cleaners can be.

    That pretty much sums it up, I think.

    • Aucky

      Just got home from the pub with my $100+ winnings as I predicted Brexit two weeks ago. My UK family, once hard-arsed Yorkshire Labour supporters, had told me they were voting to leave the EU come hell or high water. They have no economic concerns they just wanted their country back. It seems millions of other Poms felt the same way and once again the polls were rubbish.

  • Cadae

    I don’t think Scotland would want to go to the effort of independently joining a failing EU – jumping aboard a sinking ship would serve little to no purpose.

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